Comm: -I still love to relocate and with aliens gettin mc/sc as first chamber relocing is often easier cause there will be more gorges, dropping chambers, during the first 90 seconds. The best SC counter is still a reloc between the 2 unbuild hives followed by a simple 2 hive lockdown (pg,rt,mines,obs and elec) while constantly pressuring their nodes/main hive. Sometimes i even end up with 4+ obs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marine: -I am still following orders and talking way too much during a game.....
Alien: -MC is the most valid chamber atm. Adren Fades are the pure evil, as well as silence skulks and the adren skulk, that constantly hits res nodes. Sc is pretty nice, but still risky as first chamber, cause good rines will ladder into vents and take the SCs down.
Sumup: I dont see any side having heavy advantages --> well balanced build, grats to the dev team little <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> loves you
As far as shotty being weaker goes, I'd have to agree that it's not identical, somehow. Had a non-cara (movement first) 1 hive skulk survive a direct shotty hit recently; skulk was --sitting still-- about 1 skulk-length away from the corner (I knew he was there) I turned the corner, put a shot square in him, and he survived. One instance is not a great example, but something like this should *never* happen. Something is up.
<span style='color:orange'>Quote and response snipped out for reason given a few posts below. -- Marik</span> Now, on to the topic that was being discussed and putting an end to my <b>pathetic attempts to sound intelligent to increase my self worth on the internet</b>. The shotgun does feel very different. I don’t know how big “500 units” is (and I think it’s very funny that they added in this change, seeing how shotgun sniping would kill about 1 or 2 worthless skulks per game, not really that game play changing at all) but I do know that something changed with the shotgun. I play the game, unlike others, and when I do I almost only use the shotgun. Even up close, very close, it feels like the shotgun is just as effective as it was in beta 5.
I wonder if this shotgun business is as simple as a code typo? It's happened before, I've seen weapons thrown right out of whack in several mods because one of the coders accidentally hit a 9 instead of a 0 or something along those lines.
The other possibility I can come up with is that this perception of the shotgun being different is a self-replicating meme, and that when we try it out we already believe that it's broken because it's been accepted as truth by so many people. However, not knowing much about the current state of the shotty (still downloading the new version), I'm going to stick with either "something isn't right in the code" or "lag and server problems are affecting the shotgun's effectiveness, especially against moving targets."
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2005
<span style='color:orange'>[2nd edit by Marik]Well, this post is staying nuked, but after looking again at the thread, I think it can continue as long as people cool down. I might make another edit or few to above posts to try and help it towards that point. Re-opened.</span>
Ok, if the thread can be opened, let me just say that I love 3.0! I think the problems that remain for NS as a pub game are all still there, because they are a problem with players and the high learning curve (as well as a high percentage of people who just enjoy messing around). While I still think there are definitive things the devs could do to make players more informed about what they need to be doing, that's the really tricky stuff, and frankly, all the hard-core gameplay stuff is as polished and solid as we've ever seen it. Get yourself some good players who have a clue, and you've got yourself an incredible experience now.
If this version was out two years ago, it could have been sold as a retail game and made millions in profit. Let's hope that's exactly what will happen with the next UWE project. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-ikir+Mar 9 2005, 05:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ikir @ Mar 9 2005, 05:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the problem is not this. The problem is the mid game, when marines lost res and aliens go stronger. The problem is "blink". Blink is usefull also when you havo no stamina. It let you escape 99% of the times. lmg can't do nothing versus a skilled fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> this, IMHO, has been a problem all throughout B5 and 2.0. everything else, on average, is fine. my only complaint has ever been blink. heck, keep what it does as it is. all it needs is a limit on its use. as it is, as was said and quoted, having a fade be able to blink almost as well as if it had full energy, when in fact its at 0 energy and blinking on the regening dregs, means that theres no risk for it. it gets hurt, theres nothing stopping it from blinking away real fast unless theres a lot of marines, and one makes a note to block it with their own body.
seeing a fade using blink to almost literally 'fly' around a room, up by the ceiling the entire time, and even longer with the doubled energy ability, is a little overdoing it. it should be good for, IMHO, one quick dash in, then be unusuable until energy is either half full or 3/4ths full again. that way, the fade has to really calculate exactly when to move in for the kill.
the shotgun is a dangerous weapon for a fade to face, however, since the current blink lets said fades get away so fast, so easily, and with no real energy restriction, shotguns in groups less than 2 or 3, wielded by really good marines, are no match for a focus fade more often than not, unless the fade waits too long to run, or is really really good. even heavies have some problems.
the OTHER fix, one i recall hearing the dev team said theyd never do, is give the marines a weapon that gives a lot of damage at long range in one hit, with a cooldown, akin to a sniper rifle or some other long range one-shot heavy hitter. then hitting the fade as it blinks off will have a lot more chance of being worthwhile, specially with the removal of the shotgun 'sniping'.
the dilemma i see in my head is with the new shotgun, fades get close, can blink away with little worry about energy inhibiting said retreat, and then repeat. with shotguns, if you dont get it at point blank and in good numbers, which against an honestly good fade you wont, your more or less SoL unless you get real lucky. LMG and HMG are longer range, but they dont do enough damage in one big burst to usually kill the fade before it has ample time to retreat.
*summary for those who dont wanna read the long rant/comment:*
make it so blink needs a certain amount of energy to use, and when under that amount, disable it completely, to prevent this 'indefinate blink' ability and make it much more difficult to 'dominate' an entire marine team with focus, then blink away when the energy is low from using swipe and metabolize *the latter when applicable. i have seen fade players manage to swap between meta and blink and blink away while using meta, with next to no energy*
personally, I think limiting fade blink to MOSTLY horizontal motion would help somewhat. The main problem with good fades is that they constantly shoot up instantly into the cieling (some even have scripts that allow them to get a click of metabolize while they're up there) making them very very hard for marines to track. Vertical flying is the domain of the lerk, not the fades. While I can understand needing it in for fades to be able to move through the map quickly, not to mention vents, in combat with marines it's pretty annoying: as bad or worse than lerk pancaking used to be.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Mar 10 2005, 03:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 10 2005, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...(some even have scripts that allow them to get a click of metabolize while they're up there)... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ...some just use fastswitch and quick fingers...I really hope you don't belong to those guys that call good fades scripters, i'm fed up of those guys because I meet them on too many servers. Anyway, you are right that vertical blinking fades are hard to hit, but it strongly depends on the map(location) and such locations favor jetpack as well.
I just played an awesome game as marines. We relocated on veil between dres and subsector-hive and were facing sensory aliens. We defeated them with the known counters in 3.0final: awesome comm, communication, multiple observatories, armor up + welders and perfect scouting by scanning. I have to admit that the aliens probably weren't as skilled as the marines, but imho its possible to adapt to the new situation in general.
<!--QuoteBegin-pSyk0mAn+Mar 10 2005, 04:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (pSyk0mAn @ Mar 10 2005, 04:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Mar 10 2005, 03:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 10 2005, 03:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...(some even have scripts that allow them to get a click of metabolize while they're up there)... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...some just use fastswitch and quick fingers...I really hope you don't belong to those guys that call good fades scripters, i'm fed up of those guys because I meet them on too many servers. Anyway, you are right that vertical blinking fades are hard to hit, but it strongly depends on the map(location) and such locations favor jetpack as well.
I just played an awesome game as marines. We relocated on veil between dres and subsector-hive and were facing sensory aliens. We defeated them with the known counters in 3.0final: awesome comm, communication, multiple observatories, armor up + welders and perfect scouting by scanning. I have to admit that the aliens probably weren't as skilled as the marines, but imho its possible to adapt to the new situation in general. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> when I'm fading with metabolize available, I generally just hold down mouse one and switch between slots 2 and 3 so that blink is depressed in clicks similar to if I was blinking around the map without metabolize. Honestly it isn't that usefull... It makes it a little harder to blinkswipe properly, and metabolize works far better if you just hold it down for long periods of time.
Blinking around aimlessly in a base is useless except in extream baiting situations (generally you want skulks to bait for the fade, rarely the other way around), you want to get kills if you are in there. Shoot in, get a kill, shoot out, and then bunnyhop back to safety motabolizing (as you can bhop almost blink speeds with an initial blink boost)
[edit] to clarify, I define antiscripting. I don't even have a single bind that can't be done from the NS options menu.
I didnt even bother to read the whole post, since your argumentation was... poor, to say at least.
And as someone kindly already managed to comment, marines do need teamwork to make anything work. Ramboing wont benefit your team in any way, and I quite frankly dont know how people think its "more fun", since the commander wont propably even have res for proper upgrades or weapons, and the aliens WILL win.
And I dont know on what kind of servers you play on, but the ones i play on marines do seem to win most on the time, unless of course all the skilled players stack on the aliens.
i actually find the new version pretty successful - aside from the server performance issues.
It does takes some time to adapt to the new shotgun; but really, I don't really feel that it has been drastically changed - besides the fact that you can no longer snipe with the shotgun anymore.
Other than the 'shotgun issue' and the 'server issues' the new update seems to be relatively successful in bringing back the 'teamwork' feel to the game again - sure, sometimes a 'omglookatmeiam2pro4u' can carry your team and win; but it looks like there will be more and more demand for actual teamwork as the game progresses with time.
Funny thing is that I have the feeling that I perform much better now with the shotgun. But at least I know that's likely a psychological effect and there’s no need to open a topic with the title “the shotgun owns now”. Same goes for rant about the shotgun. It’s probably only a psychological effect.
Nicely seen and proven at some Day of Defeat release (can’t remember the version though). While only sounds of the weapons got changed the message board got stuffed with rants and praises of the same weapons.
There are many factors can change the performance of a weapon. Some may be more affected by the loss of the sniping ability. Also later development of weapon upgrades because of the changed game rules to counter different chambers than defence chamber may be a factor.
It takes more some weeks to adept and having a more realistic feeling for the weapon performance.
Rants in the first days of a new release are waste of bandwidth needed for downloads of Swedish documentary of human reproduction.
<!--QuoteBegin-EdgarWare+Mar 10 2005, 05:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EdgarWare @ Mar 10 2005, 05:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I didnt even bother to read the whole post, since your argumentation was... poor, to say at least.
And as someone kindly already managed to comment, marines do need teamwork to make anything work. Ramboing wont benefit your team in any way, and I quite frankly dont know how people think its "more fun", since the commander wont propably even have res for proper upgrades or weapons, and the aliens WILL win.
And I dont know on what kind of servers you play on, but the ones i play on marines do seem to win most on the time, unless of course all the skilled players stack on the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for taking the time to respond to a post you didn't read. As clearly stated in the topic title this is a rant, and as such was really not intended to argue anything, simply to lay out the way I saw things. If you would like me to provide argumentive evidence to my points feel free to specifically ask for such evidence in regard to whatever point you disagree with. I really had no intent with proving anything I said in the original post, and I really didn't expect this thread to be nearly as popular as it is, because, as I have already stated, it is simply a rant, and the content is not entirely all too impressive.
With that being said, welcome to the forums, and try to keep the sarcastic flames to yourself in the future.
I applaud Swift for his calm reaction here. Edgar, I'd suggest you check the community rules again, fast.
There's one thing I'd like to note for this as in many other threads: As of now, people seem to treat 'teamwork' as a kind of positive modifier to whatever playing style they usually employ: "Sure, we might win with teamwork, but what if the aliens use teamwork, too?" Folks, teamwork is not a '+2' to your damage levels. It is a mindset. This mindset won't guarantee your victory, it'll only make it possible to use certain strategies which might. You can't weigh alien and marine teamwork up against each other and then assume that they should equal out. You have to take a look at the practical application.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 10 2005, 07:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 10 2005, 07:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I applaud Swift for his calm reaction here. Edgar, I'd suggest you check the community rules again, fast.
There's one thing I'd like to note for this as in many other threads: As of now, people seem to treat 'teamwork' as a kind of positive modifier to whatever playing style they usually employ: "Sure, we might win with teamwork, but what if the aliens use teamwork, too?" Folks, teamwork is not a '+2' to your damage levels. It is a mindset. This mindset won't guarantee your victory, it'll only make it possible to use certain strategies which might. You can't weigh alien and marine teamwork up against each other and then assume that they should equal out. You have to take a look at the practical application. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. I want to point out right now that I was never trying to argue against teamwork, and I was never in support of ramboism. I love to alein flashlight and I am not asking in any way for backwards movement of the game. Stop claiming I am trying to destroy teamwork because I am claiming that this build is not balanced! Contrary to popular belife compeditive teams use alot of teamwork and they don't just rambo around hoping thier high skills will get them enough kills to win a match. Now consider that the compeditive comunity is claiming that this build is alien bias, and they are seeing alot more alien alien ties then in past builds.
Combine that with statisics from pretty much any server that reasonably reflects the game sizes that NS is trying to be balanced for by the developers (6v6) and you will see that the wildy common trend is alot more marine losses then wins.
Stop calling me unpatriotic because I don't support bush in the elections! Stating that this build is unbalanced does not indicate a hatred towards teamwork!
Actually, Swift, the argument can be reversed: Because we force marine players into a bigger reassessment of their strategic applications, no clear picture of the 'true' balancesituation can be drawn yet.
As long as I have people explain to me that they can't hold res nodes in 3.0F, or that they can't afford all the tech they need to counter SCs, and then go out and don't try to electrify their nodes, I will wait with any balance changes. Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 10 2005, 07:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 10 2005, 07:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, Swift, the argument can be reversed: Because we force marine players into a bigger reassessment of their strategic applications, no clear picture of the 'true' balancesituation can be drawn yet.
As long as I have people explain to me that they can't hold res nodes in 3.0F, or that they can't afford all the tech they need to counter SCs, and then go out and don't try to electrify their nodes, I will wait with any balance changes. Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> For the record, I realize that conclusions are hard to draw still at this point, I'm just stating that I don't apreciate being accused of hating team work because I don't belive this build is balanced.
Also I have seen electric res tryed a couple times in response to sensory. ATM electrifying just costs too much to counter early fades, even when the aleins go sensory (which doesn't give fades any real help smashing electric RTs). Unless the 2 electrified nozzles are somehow the 2 other hive nozzles and they are along with locked up hives (which I somehow doubt is possible) early fades will come on the map due to increased resflow from greater map control, and the fades will make quick work of any electric nozzles the marines choose to leave lying around, even if they have to lose a fair bit of health in doing so. With SoF you can make sure you aren't going to be ambushed while nodesmashing, and the hive is still just a quick blink and a bunnyhop away for a fade, so it really doesn't screw them over compleatly, expecially if they are quick getting up second hive (which is also quite a common occurance in conjunction with higher resflow)
IMHO, teamwork should be an automatic. ramboing ive never been fond of, cause it's not quite as fun. taking liberties while in a fireteam, like welding a grate or killing a SC, without being told is find. running off works in Co, but not in NS.
that said, im pretty sure some of the arguments said here are assuming teamwork is already being used. i am, at least...
ive seen an entire marine fireteam of 4 slaughtered by 1 fade, and this was late in the game with all upgrades and such, while using group tactics to fight it. we just couldnt do enough dmg to kill it cause it was literally flyin around the room *was a big room. forget which map*. it makes no sense that a bipedal creature with no wings can fly around like a lerk....
I'm sorry nemo, but I dont agree with you in your acessment of how to counter-act SCs. You dont have time on your side. Not in 3.0 final.
With three RTs dropped right at the start, and skulks more able to defend them than in the last version, alien midgame (fades +building hive) comes along much earlier than during the last version. At the same time, marine midgame is delayed for the same reasons, better skulks stops res capping attemts and slows down marine tech to the point that marine midgame arrives later than it did in b5.
This, together with the fact that alien midgame is now stronger than it was before (and alien midgame was already stronger than marine midgame in b5) means that marines trying to take down the alien second hive will have a very hard time.
I'm not saying its impossible, or that marine teams wont get better during the following week, evening out the odds a bit. I am however saying that in the game of numbers, aliens have a clear advantage in this patch.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 10 2005, 12:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 10 2005, 12:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and then go out and don't try to electrify their nodes, I will wait with any balance changes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Swift is correct, Nem0. Electrifing anything is a poor idea, unless it's a tfac used for base defense (with your other structures huddled around it). It costs far too much money to electrify - and it is easily countered. With some moderate teamwork, two skulks and 1 gorge can down an elec'ed res node - as can a solo fade with regen. The investment of res it takes to electrify nodes far outweights it's worth, from a gameplay view. Once those 2 elec'ed nodes go down (and they will) there goes your 70+ res res investment, and now there are fades knocking on your front door and you have precious little to defend yourself with, for all money went to trying to secure res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nem0+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nem0)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SC is now a very deadly chamber. When the marines have to defeat an alien team that went SC first, their commander has to be very skilled. The amount of micromanagment it takes to scan multiple areas, for multiple squads of marines, all while still dropping meds/ammo, upgrading/placing structures, and respoding to "X under attack" is difficult to achieve. I have not seen it yet on any pub servers - commanders just dont have that kind of skill.
Not to mention the hell that the marines have to put up with. The ability to run and still have some cloaking can destroy marines. Combine sitting near an SC chamber with focus and I can often take out squads of 2 or 3 marines. I'm finding that since SC first is so kickass early game, the aliens get a good foothold on the res nodes - then are able to dominate late game - while the marines are trying to get res or save up for shottys to deal with the fades that are roaming the map.
I think the best idea would probably be to lower the cost of an RT down to 12 res and the cost to elect a RT down to 25 res not much of a change but it would give the comm a little more wiggle room while not changing the fundemental gmaeplay to much.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 10 2005, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 10 2005, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 10 2005, 12:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 10 2005, 12:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and then go out and don't try to electrify their nodes, I will wait with any balance changes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Swift is correct, Nem0. Electrifing anything is a poor idea, unless it's a tfac used for base defense (with your other structures huddled around it). It costs far too much money to electrify - and it is easily countered. With some moderate teamwork, two skulks and 1 gorge can down an elec'ed res node - as can a solo fade with regen. The investment of res it takes to electrify nodes far outweights it's worth, from a gameplay view. Once those 2 elec'ed nodes go down (and they will) there goes your 70+ res res investment, and now there are fades knocking on your front door and you have precious little to defend yourself with, for all money went to trying to secure res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nem0+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nem0)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SC is now a very deadly chamber. When the marines have to defeat an alien team that went SC first, their commander has to be very skilled. The amount of micromanagment it takes to scan multiple areas, for multiple squads of marines, all while still dropping meds/ammo, upgrading/placing structures, and respoding to "X under attack" is difficult to achieve. I have not seen it yet on any pub servers - commanders just dont have that kind of skill.
<b>Not to mention the hell that the marines have to put up with. The ability to run and still have some cloaking can destroy marines. Combine sitting near an SC chamber with focus and I can often take out squads of 2 or 3 marines. I'm finding that since SC first is so kickass early game, the aliens get a good foothold on the res nodes - then are able to dominate late game - while the marines are trying to get res or save up for shottys to deal with the fades that are roaming the map.</b>
Or at least this is what I've found... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> IMHO, this needs to be fixed. SC is WAY too strong of a chamber now. Marines also got nerfs along with aliens getting buffs, which makes NS alien biased.
And saying "Marines have to use more strategy/teamwork now" is the politically correct way to say "We horribly unbalanced the game in favor of aliens", IMO.
Electrifying RT's isn't supposed to make these RT's invincible...it's supposed to prolong their life and discourage solo skulks or even groups of skulks in taking it out...and at this they do a marvelous job...as a skulk player I should know...if I see elec RT's I ask whether there are any fades avaliable, and if not, I ignore it knowing I can't do much about it.
A skulk + gorge vs an elec. RT poses a slightly bigger problem. Fact remains though that it still takes a huge timeinvestment for the skulk(s) and gorge to take that RT down. This time could be used by the marines to send a small group and rescue that RT.
Electricity is a defence vs lower life forms, it's not an universal counter vs the entire khaara team. And early on, electricity is VERY useful to ensure a steady resflow to the marines without spending manpower to defend these towers or resources to constantly rebuild them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Skyrage+Mar 10 2005, 09:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Mar 10 2005, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Electrifying RT's isn't supposed to make these RT's invincible...it's supposed to prolong their life and discourage solo skulks or even groups of skulks in taking it out... -- Electricity is a defence vs lower life forms, it's not an universal counter vs the entire khaara team. -- And early on, electricity is VERY useful to ensure a steady resflow to the marines without spending manpower to defend these towers or resources to constantly rebuild them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then maybe the price should reflect this?
Also, that "time investment" you talked about is pretty mininal, and the reward for destroying and elec'ed res is through the roof - 45 res down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And saying "Marines have to use more strategy/teamwork now" is the politically correct way to say "We horribly unbalanced the game in favor of aliens", IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, saying "Marines have to use more strategy/teamwork now" means that "Marines have to stop running about alone." If the Marines figure it out and stop running willy-nilly across the maps just to be snacked on, then we'll see how the balance is.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 10 2005, 06:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 10 2005, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Skyrage+Mar 10 2005, 09:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Skyrage @ Mar 10 2005, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Electrifying RT's isn't supposed to make these RT's invincible...it's supposed to prolong their life and discourage solo skulks or even groups of skulks in taking it out... -- Electricity is a defence vs lower life forms, it's not an universal counter vs the entire khaara team. -- And early on, electricity is VERY useful to ensure a steady resflow to the marines without spending manpower to defend these towers or resources to constantly rebuild them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then maybe the price should reflect this?
Also, that "time investment" you talked about is pretty mininal, and the reward for destroying and elec'ed res is through the roof - 45 res down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> exactly. Electric res is gold plated candy to fades and bile gorges. Hell, if I'm a gorge and I see an electric nozzle, I'll drop an OC by it, just because if it gets taken down, it was more then worth the 10 res hit in a nozzle area.
Comments
Comm:
-I still love to relocate and with aliens gettin mc/sc as first chamber relocing is often easier cause there will be more gorges, dropping chambers, during the first 90 seconds. The best SC counter is still a reloc between the 2 unbuild hives followed by a simple 2 hive lockdown (pg,rt,mines,obs and elec) while constantly pressuring their nodes/main hive. Sometimes i even end up with 4+ obs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Marine:
-I am still following orders and talking way too much during a game.....
Alien:
-MC is the most valid chamber atm. Adren Fades are the pure evil, as well as silence skulks and the adren skulk, that constantly hits res nodes. Sc is pretty nice, but still risky as first chamber, cause good rines will ladder into vents and take the SCs down.
Sumup: I dont see any side having heavy advantages --> well balanced build, grats to the dev team
little <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> loves you
Now, on to the topic that was being discussed and putting an end to my <b>pathetic attempts to sound intelligent to increase my self worth on the internet</b>. The shotgun does feel very different. I don’t know how big “500 units” is (and I think it’s very funny that they added in this change, seeing how shotgun sniping would kill about 1 or 2 worthless skulks per game, not really that game play changing at all) but I do know that something changed with the shotgun. I play the game, unlike others, and when I do I almost only use the shotgun. Even up close, very close, it feels like the shotgun is just as effective as it was in beta 5.
The other possibility I can come up with is that this perception of the shotgun being different is a self-replicating meme, and that when we try it out we already believe that it's broken because it's been accepted as truth by so many people. However, not knowing much about the current state of the shotty (still downloading the new version), I'm going to stick with either "something isn't right in the code" or "lag and server problems are affecting the shotgun's effectiveness, especially against moving targets."
If this version was out two years ago, it could have been sold as a retail game and made millions in profit. Let's hope that's exactly what will happen with the next UWE project. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
this, IMHO, has been a problem all throughout B5 and 2.0. everything else, on average, is fine. my only complaint has ever been blink. heck, keep what it does as it is. all it needs is a limit on its use. as it is, as was said and quoted, having a fade be able to blink almost as well as if it had full energy, when in fact its at 0 energy and blinking on the regening dregs, means that theres no risk for it. it gets hurt, theres nothing stopping it from blinking away real fast unless theres a lot of marines, and one makes a note to block it with their own body.
seeing a fade using blink to almost literally 'fly' around a room, up by the ceiling the entire time, and even longer with the doubled energy ability, is a little overdoing it. it should be good for, IMHO, one quick dash in, then be unusuable until energy is either half full or 3/4ths full again. that way, the fade has to really calculate exactly when to move in for the kill.
the shotgun is a dangerous weapon for a fade to face, however, since the current blink lets said fades get away so fast, so easily, and with no real energy restriction, shotguns in groups less than 2 or 3, wielded by really good marines, are no match for a focus fade more often than not, unless the fade waits too long to run, or is really really good. even heavies have some problems.
the OTHER fix, one i recall hearing the dev team said theyd never do, is give the marines a weapon that gives a lot of damage at long range in one hit, with a cooldown, akin to a sniper rifle or some other long range one-shot heavy hitter. then hitting the fade as it blinks off will have a lot more chance of being worthwhile, specially with the removal of the shotgun 'sniping'.
the dilemma i see in my head is with the new shotgun, fades get close, can blink away with little worry about energy inhibiting said retreat, and then repeat. with shotguns, if you dont get it at point blank and in good numbers, which against an honestly good fade you wont, your more or less SoL unless you get real lucky. LMG and HMG are longer range, but they dont do enough damage in one big burst to usually kill the fade before it has ample time to retreat.
*summary for those who dont wanna read the long rant/comment:*
make it so blink needs a certain amount of energy to use, and when under that amount, disable it completely, to prevent this 'indefinate blink' ability and make it much more difficult to 'dominate' an entire marine team with focus, then blink away when the energy is low from using swipe and metabolize *the latter when applicable. i have seen fade players manage to swap between meta and blink and blink away while using meta, with next to no energy*
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
...some just use fastswitch and quick fingers...I really hope you don't belong to those guys that call good fades scripters, i'm fed up of those guys because I meet them on too many servers.
Anyway, you are right that vertical blinking fades are hard to hit, but it strongly depends on the map(location) and such locations favor jetpack as well.
I just played an awesome game as marines.
We relocated on veil between dres and subsector-hive and were facing sensory aliens.
We defeated them with the known counters in 3.0final:
awesome comm, communication, multiple observatories, armor up + welders and perfect scouting by scanning.
I have to admit that the aliens probably weren't as skilled as the marines, but imho its possible to adapt to the new situation in general.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...some just use fastswitch and quick fingers...I really hope you don't belong to those guys that call good fades scripters, i'm fed up of those guys because I meet them on too many servers.
Anyway, you are right that vertical blinking fades are hard to hit, but it strongly depends on the map(location) and such locations favor jetpack as well.
I just played an awesome game as marines.
We relocated on veil between dres and subsector-hive and were facing sensory aliens.
We defeated them with the known counters in 3.0final:
awesome comm, communication, multiple observatories, armor up + welders and perfect scouting by scanning.
I have to admit that the aliens probably weren't as skilled as the marines, but imho its possible to adapt to the new situation in general. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
when I'm fading with metabolize available, I generally just hold down mouse one and switch between slots 2 and 3 so that blink is depressed in clicks similar to if I was blinking around the map without metabolize. Honestly it isn't that usefull... It makes it a little harder to blinkswipe properly, and metabolize works far better if you just hold it down for long periods of time.
Blinking around aimlessly in a base is useless except in extream baiting situations (generally you want skulks to bait for the fade, rarely the other way around), you want to get kills if you are in there. Shoot in, get a kill, shoot out, and then bunnyhop back to safety motabolizing (as you can bhop almost blink speeds with an initial blink boost)
[edit] to clarify, I define antiscripting. I don't even have a single bind that can't be done from the NS options menu.
And as someone kindly already managed to comment, marines do need teamwork to make anything work. Ramboing wont benefit your team in any way, and I quite frankly dont know how people think its "more fun", since the commander wont propably even have res for proper upgrades or weapons, and the aliens WILL win.
And I dont know on what kind of servers you play on, but the ones i play on marines do seem to win most on the time, unless of course all the skilled players stack on the aliens.
It does takes some time to adapt to the new shotgun; but really, I don't really feel that it has been drastically changed - besides the fact that you can no longer snipe with the shotgun anymore.
Other than the 'shotgun issue' and the 'server issues' the new update seems to be relatively successful in bringing back the 'teamwork' feel to the game again - sure, sometimes a 'omglookatmeiam2pro4u' can carry your team and win; but it looks like there will be more and more demand for actual teamwork as the game progresses with time.
Nicely seen and proven at some Day of Defeat release (can’t remember the version though). While only sounds of the weapons got changed the message board got stuffed with rants and praises of the same weapons.
There are many factors can change the performance of a weapon. Some may be more affected by the loss of the sniping ability. Also later development of weapon upgrades because of the changed game rules to counter different chambers than defence chamber may be a factor.
It takes more some weeks to adept and having a more realistic feeling for the weapon performance.
Rants in the first days of a new release are waste of bandwidth needed for downloads of Swedish documentary of human reproduction.
And as someone kindly already managed to comment, marines do need teamwork to make anything work. Ramboing wont benefit your team in any way, and I quite frankly dont know how people think its "more fun", since the commander wont propably even have res for proper upgrades or weapons, and the aliens WILL win.
And I dont know on what kind of servers you play on, but the ones i play on marines do seem to win most on the time, unless of course all the skilled players stack on the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for taking the time to respond to a post you didn't read. As clearly stated in the topic title this is a rant, and as such was really not intended to argue anything, simply to lay out the way I saw things. If you would like me to provide argumentive evidence to my points feel free to specifically ask for such evidence in regard to whatever point you disagree with. I really had no intent with proving anything I said in the original post, and I really didn't expect this thread to be nearly as popular as it is, because, as I have already stated, it is simply a rant, and the content is not entirely all too impressive.
With that being said, welcome to the forums, and try to keep the sarcastic flames to yourself in the future.
There's one thing I'd like to note for this as in many other threads: As of now, people seem to treat 'teamwork' as a kind of positive modifier to whatever playing style they usually employ: "Sure, we might win with teamwork, but what if the aliens use teamwork, too?"
Folks, teamwork is not a '+2' to your damage levels. It is a mindset. This mindset won't guarantee your victory, it'll only make it possible to use certain strategies which might. You can't weigh alien and marine teamwork up against each other and then assume that they should equal out. You have to take a look at the practical application.
There's one thing I'd like to note for this as in many other threads: As of now, people seem to treat 'teamwork' as a kind of positive modifier to whatever playing style they usually employ: "Sure, we might win with teamwork, but what if the aliens use teamwork, too?"
Folks, teamwork is not a '+2' to your damage levels. It is a mindset. This mindset won't guarantee your victory, it'll only make it possible to use certain strategies which might. You can't weigh alien and marine teamwork up against each other and then assume that they should equal out. You have to take a look at the practical application. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. I want to point out right now that I was never trying to argue against teamwork, and I was never in support of ramboism. I love to alein flashlight and I am not asking in any way for backwards movement of the game. Stop claiming I am trying to destroy teamwork because I am claiming that this build is not balanced! Contrary to popular belife compeditive teams use alot of teamwork and they don't just rambo around hoping thier high skills will get them enough kills to win a match. Now consider that the compeditive comunity is claiming that this build is alien bias, and they are seeing alot more alien alien ties then in past builds.
Combine that with statisics from pretty much any server that reasonably reflects the game sizes that NS is trying to be balanced for by the developers (6v6) and you will see that the wildy common trend is alot more marine losses then wins.
Stop calling me unpatriotic because I don't support bush in the elections! Stating that this build is unbalanced does not indicate a hatred towards teamwork!
As long as I have people explain to me that they can't hold res nodes in 3.0F, or that they can't afford all the tech they need to counter SCs, and then go out and don't try to electrify their nodes, I will wait with any balance changes.
Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can.
As long as I have people explain to me that they can't hold res nodes in 3.0F, or that they can't afford all the tech they need to counter SCs, and then go out and don't try to electrify their nodes, I will wait with any balance changes.
Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the record, I realize that conclusions are hard to draw still at this point, I'm just stating that I don't apreciate being accused of hating team work because I don't belive this build is balanced.
Also I have seen electric res tryed a couple times in response to sensory. ATM electrifying just costs too much to counter early fades, even when the aleins go sensory (which doesn't give fades any real help smashing electric RTs). Unless the 2 electrified nozzles are somehow the 2 other hive nozzles and they are along with locked up hives (which I somehow doubt is possible) early fades will come on the map due to increased resflow from greater map control, and the fades will make quick work of any electric nozzles the marines choose to leave lying around, even if they have to lose a fair bit of health in doing so. With SoF you can make sure you aren't going to be ambushed while nodesmashing, and the hive is still just a quick blink and a bunnyhop away for a fade, so it really doesn't screw them over compleatly, expecially if they are quick getting up second hive (which is also quite a common occurance in conjunction with higher resflow)
that said, im pretty sure some of the arguments said here are assuming teamwork is already being used. i am, at least...
ive seen an entire marine fireteam of 4 slaughtered by 1 fade, and this was late in the game with all upgrades and such, while using group tactics to fight it. we just couldnt do enough dmg to kill it cause it was literally flyin around the room *was a big room. forget which map*. it makes no sense that a bipedal creature with no wings can fly around like a lerk....
With three RTs dropped right at the start, and skulks more able to defend them than in the last version, alien midgame (fades +building hive) comes along much earlier than during the last version. At the same time, marine midgame is delayed for the same reasons, better skulks stops res capping attemts and slows down marine tech to the point that marine midgame arrives later than it did in b5.
This, together with the fact that alien midgame is now stronger than it was before (and alien midgame was already stronger than marine midgame in b5) means that marines trying to take down the alien second hive will have a very hard time.
I'm not saying its impossible, or that marine teams wont get better during the following week, evening out the odds a bit. I am however saying that in the game of numbers, aliens have a clear advantage in this patch.
Swift is correct, Nem0. Electrifing anything is a poor idea, unless it's a tfac used for base defense (with your other structures huddled around it). It costs far too much money to electrify - and it is easily countered. With some moderate teamwork, two skulks and 1 gorge can down an elec'ed res node - as can a solo fade with regen. The investment of res it takes to electrify nodes far outweights it's worth, from a gameplay view. Once those 2 elec'ed nodes go down (and they will) there goes your 70+ res res investment, and now there are fades knocking on your front door and you have precious little to defend yourself with, for all money went to trying to secure res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nem0+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nem0)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SC is now a very deadly chamber. When the marines have to defeat an alien team that went SC first, their commander has to be very skilled. The amount of micromanagment it takes to scan multiple areas, for multiple squads of marines, all while still dropping meds/ammo, upgrading/placing structures, and respoding to "X under attack" is difficult to achieve. I have not seen it yet on any pub servers - commanders just dont have that kind of skill.
Not to mention the hell that the marines have to put up with. The ability to run and still have some cloaking can destroy marines. Combine sitting near an SC chamber with focus and I can often take out squads of 2 or 3 marines. I'm finding that since SC first is so kickass early game, the aliens get a good foothold on the res nodes - then are able to dominate late game - while the marines are trying to get res or save up for shottys to deal with the fades that are roaming the map.
Or at least this is what I've found...
Swift is correct, Nem0. Electrifing anything is a poor idea, unless it's a tfac used for base defense (with your other structures huddled around it). It costs far too much money to electrify - and it is easily countered. With some moderate teamwork, two skulks and 1 gorge can down an elec'ed res node - as can a solo fade with regen. The investment of res it takes to electrify nodes far outweights it's worth, from a gameplay view. Once those 2 elec'ed nodes go down (and they will) there goes your 70+ res res investment, and now there are fades knocking on your front door and you have precious little to defend yourself with, for all money went to trying to secure res nodes.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nem0+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nem0)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine commanders have to get it through their system that once first-hive SC is ascertained, time's on their side. Cap two node, electrify them. Defend the area you can uncloak via ops. Gather resources and slowly progress through the map. The aliens won't be able to gain strength as fast as you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SC is now a very deadly chamber. When the marines have to defeat an alien team that went SC first, their commander has to be very skilled. The amount of micromanagment it takes to scan multiple areas, for multiple squads of marines, all while still dropping meds/ammo, upgrading/placing structures, and respoding to "X under attack" is difficult to achieve. I have not seen it yet on any pub servers - commanders just dont have that kind of skill.
<b>Not to mention the hell that the marines have to put up with. The ability to run and still have some cloaking can destroy marines. Combine sitting near an SC chamber with focus and I can often take out squads of 2 or 3 marines. I'm finding that since SC first is so kickass early game, the aliens get a good foothold on the res nodes - then are able to dominate late game - while the marines are trying to get res or save up for shottys to deal with the fades that are roaming the map.</b>
Or at least this is what I've found... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMHO, this needs to be fixed.
SC is WAY too strong of a chamber now. Marines also got nerfs along with aliens getting buffs, which makes NS alien biased.
And saying "Marines have to use more strategy/teamwork now" is the politically correct way to say "We horribly unbalanced the game in favor of aliens", IMO.
A skulk + gorge vs an elec. RT poses a slightly bigger problem. Fact remains though that it still takes a huge timeinvestment for the skulk(s) and gorge to take that RT down. This time could be used by the marines to send a small group and rescue that RT.
Electricity is a defence vs lower life forms, it's not an universal counter vs the entire khaara team. And early on, electricity is VERY useful to ensure a steady resflow to the marines without spending manpower to defend these towers or resources to constantly rebuild them.
--
Electricity is a defence vs lower life forms, it's not an universal counter vs the entire khaara team.
--
And early on, electricity is VERY useful to ensure a steady resflow to the marines without spending manpower to defend these towers or resources to constantly rebuild them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then maybe the price should reflect this?
Also, that "time investment" you talked about is pretty mininal, and the reward for destroying and elec'ed res is through the roof - 45 res down.
Nah, saying "Marines have to use more strategy/teamwork now" means that "Marines have to stop running about alone." If the Marines figure it out and stop running willy-nilly across the maps just to be snacked on, then we'll see how the balance is.
--
Electricity is a defence vs lower life forms, it's not an universal counter vs the entire khaara team.
--
And early on, electricity is VERY useful to ensure a steady resflow to the marines without spending manpower to defend these towers or resources to constantly rebuild them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then maybe the price should reflect this?
Also, that "time investment" you talked about is pretty mininal, and the reward for destroying and elec'ed res is through the roof - 45 res down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly. Electric res is gold plated candy to fades and bile gorges. Hell, if I'm a gorge and I see an electric nozzle, I'll drop an OC by it, just because if it gets taken down, it was more then worth the 10 res hit in a nozzle area.