Level Design Analyse : Ns_origin

ShadShad Join Date: 2005-03-10 Member: 44628Members
I'm a french player of Natural Selection and I would like to realize an analyse of the level design of the map ns_origin ... and I would like to know whats is the opinion of the community.

Feel free to give your ideas...
Free express yourself ...

What strategies on this map ? On the two side ... What are the importants points ... the elements of gameplay which we can see on this map ... your personnals experiences...

Thanks for anwers...


For remember, the overview :

<img src='http://www.hot.ee/naturalselection/images/overviews/ns_origin.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Comments

  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    The real reason this map is so awesome, and sometimes so frustrating is the layout of the ventilation hive, followed closely by ore extraction and xenoform research. The main question of balance concerns node control. Vent hive being so far down and concealed in the middle of the level not only is good for the hive, but good for its node, which in 2/3rds of all games is the 2nd alien hive node. When you consider ore extraction and xenoform reasearch you see that from any hive, there are at least 2 decent nodes that the aliens can cap and hold.

    At the same time, the hallways are good for both marines and aliens. They are wide open and long forcing skulks to ambush, while providing decent ambush spots. Bio and furnace are easy to seige and pg in double will do a lot for the rines in terms of accessing the vent hive.

    Even though it looks so diverse, its actually a rather symmetrical map. comp lab>laser drilling, xeno>ore, double, 3 hives across top of map with MS bottom center. If you'll notice, all good maps are rather symmetrically balanced, 9-10 Nodes seems to be the magic number with an equal amount of nodes being biased for rines and aliens.
  • AkalamanaiaAkalamanaia Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11833Members
    edited March 2005
    marine access to double-res is to fast, aliens got no chance of taking doubleres unless whole team is holding it until its piled with OC.

    about 65% of the game i played on origin,were won by marines.
    Reason: Fast res flow provided by double-res wich is easy to hold for marines.

    also access from biodome to ventilation via the vents is very marine favouring, long distances with no place to hide.
    Ventilation is easily accessed from double res, also got a marine favouring siege spot near ventilation.
    The map lacks vents in many places where they could be crucial for aliens.
  • Rapier7Rapier7 Join Date: 2004-02-05 Member: 26108Members
    In order for marines to win, they need a route from double->ventilation, without that, assuming equal teams, they cannot win.
  • AkalamanaiaAkalamanaia Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11833Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Rapier7+Mar 10 2005, 03:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rapier7 @ Mar 10 2005, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In order for marines to win, they need a route from double->ventilation, without that, assuming equal teams, they cannot win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well, marines most of the time easily get double-res, you can assault double-res from 2 directions, well actually 4, 5 if we count vents. You can put siege bases in 2 places around double-res, easily held to. Once marines get double-res, theres no way you can get it back with just skulks and fades and lerks. and if you let them keep it, insane res-flow is guaranteed.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    Origin is an interesting map... one one side the aleins have a massive advantage if they are lucky enough to get vent as first hive, and vent starts rarely result in a marine win. however, if the aliens end up with bio or furnace, they MUST at all costs make sure that vent and double are not locked down. Onos, the only lifeform that REALLY smashes up a locked down hive, can only transverse between the hives via double and marine start. from bio one of those 2 locations must be passed through for an onos to get to either vent, or marine start, and from furnace the same is true.

    It the marines REALLY lock down double good, they will rarely loose a origin game, but if not, they will rarely win.

    For this reason origin is not well loved in the compeditive comunity, because it, moreso then any other map, is very hit and miss wether you will luck out with the good hive or not.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    vents dont really count as they help the aliens, no? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> and even if they get the hold of double (which they shouldnt, at least without a fight) simply take out their other nodes. and if they spend all their res protecting double then its an alien win pretty soon.

    an early lerk might also work very well at protecting nodes on this map.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->also access from biodome to ventilation via the vents is very marine favouring, long distances with no place to hide.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    parasite them and retreat, then strike when they come down to vent or bio.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The map lacks vents in many places where they could be crucial for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    this is not entirely true. theres a huge amount of vents in origin, really. i dont think another one is that necessary =/
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    swift, what are you talking about? origin is (or was, in b5) LOVED amongst clans, at least in europe. :o

    actually, the only 2 griefs i have with origin is the biodome lifts that make sieging 99% succesful if the comm keeps them up, and the architecture around vent node that makes succesful fading very hard indeed.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> swift, what are you talking about? origin is (or was, in b5) LOVED amongst clans, at least in europe. :o

    actually, the only 2 griefs i have with origin is the biodome lifts that make sieging 99% succesful if the comm keeps them up, and the architecture around vent node that makes succesful fading very hard indeed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Fair enough, I stand corrected. I still don't take back my stance that starting vent is a much more assured victory for aleins then furnace or bio, which both tend to be a hard fought win for alein teams.
  • JazzXJazzX cl_labelmaps ∞ Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9285Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    The overall layout of the map is reminiscent of Veil or Tanith as a kite shape where the Marine Start is farther from the hives then the hives are from each other. It also shares a node layout very similar to Veil with nodes on the either side of the Marine Start (Computer Lab, Laser Drilling), the side hives each have an additional node relatively close to their hide (Xenoform Research, Ore Extraction) with a double node set between the middle hive and the MS (Cargo Bay). This means early expansion for the marines is usually one of three things (just like veil): Move to the double and then to the middle hive, or run a straight line to either side hive, capping all the nodes as you move along.

    What seperates it from Veil is its extreme elevation changes. Vent and Biodome are both much lower then the area around them, so use of a ladder or elevator is required at some point. For Biodome in particular this means defending the hive can be a huge challenge as the marines will frequently siege from the area above the hive, almost entirely knocking Onos out of the equation, and giving the marines opportunity to force a Fade to move up and then raise the elevators behind him, forcing him to try a risky rush into a vent, or to leave the battle and loop back around to the hive once he has healed.

    Additionally Origin's vent layout, while very comprehensive is also a bit bizzare. Each hive has only one exit which can be used by an Onos, the others are too low for him to pass through. An Onos in the Ventilation Hive without MCs with Marines in Double will essentially be trapped there, and is of little use except to help repel a direct assualt on Ventilation. Aside from that many of the vents (including all of the ones that interconnect the hives) can be reached by Marines, meaning the Aliens must be very wary when the Marines hold one of the hives, since that means they could easily launch an assualt from the sides.

    Again, like Veil, I think Origin's Marine bias is due to two main factors: 1) Long Hallways with great LoS (though I think Origin overall has far more cover then Veil) 2) Res distribution that allows the marines to very quickly, in the early game, cap 3 or 4 nodes by just moving in a straight line. If they use this res wisely they will be simultaneously teching on the arms lab, armory and obs nearly off the bat. Combine this with the elevation issues at Biodome Hive, and the dependence on Movement chambers to get the Onos a second way out of each hive (especially Vent) and its pretty obvious why games play out like they do on the map.
  • SmoodCrooznSmoodCroozn Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22310Members
    I think Vent is too connected to double res. What I mean by this is that without movement chambers and a second hive, aliens must control double for Onoses to actually fight.
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
    Whereas higher lifeforms don't get so much love on Origin, it's a very friendly map for skulks, gorges and lerks. A single good Lerk with regen (or a handy healing gorge in a vent) can tie up marines for ages in double.
  • Router_BoxRouter_Box Join Date: 2004-09-07 Member: 31483Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 10 2005, 07:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 10 2005, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> swift, what are you talking about? origin is (or was, in b5) LOVED amongst clans, at least in europe. :o

    actually, the only 2 griefs i have with origin is the biodome lifts that make sieging 99% succesful if the comm keeps them up, and the architecture around vent node that makes succesful fading very hard indeed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Fair enough, I stand corrected. I still don't take back my stance that starting vent is a much more assured victory for aleins then furnace or bio, which both tend to be a hard fought win for alein teams. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    actually swift,

    Its usually way better to attack the building second hive than the first hive for the obvious defensive reasons. Aliens spawn there, and it will actively heal aliens. Now, with this taken into account, doesn't ventillation look better as a second hive than bio and furnace? I'd rather have furnace as a first hive, and vent as my second than the other way around. Good fades can fight the smelter seige very well.
  • SwiftspearSwiftspear Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Mar 10 2005, 09:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Mar 10 2005, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 10 2005, 07:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 10 2005, 07:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> swift, what are you talking about? origin is (or was, in b5) LOVED amongst clans, at least in europe. :o

    actually, the only 2 griefs i have with origin is the biodome lifts that make sieging 99% succesful if the comm keeps them up, and the architecture around vent node that makes succesful fading very hard indeed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Fair enough, I stand corrected. I still don't take back my stance that starting vent is a much more assured victory for aleins then furnace or bio, which both tend to be a hard fought win for alein teams. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    actually swift,

    Its usually way better to attack the building second hive than the first hive for the obvious defensive reasons. Aliens spawn there, and it will actively heal aliens. Now, with this taken into account, doesn't ventillation look better as a second hive than bio and furnace? I'd rather have furnace as a first hive, and vent as my second than the other way around. Good fades can fight the smelter seige very well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No, if you have vent you get to take your pick between bio and furnace, you have a much easier task taking double, and your primary hive has increadible resistance to marine ramboing/attack. The real battle in NS is for res, and with vent hive, ore, furnace, bio, vent and double are all fairly easy to cap and hold with a good team.
  • EmanonEmanon Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16254Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 10 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 10 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whereas higher lifeforms don't get so much love on Origin, it's a very friendly map for skulks, gorges and lerks. A single good Lerk with regen (or a handy healing gorge in a vent) can tie up marines for ages in double. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Vents in origin are the best around, I like how alot of them enter a room. Instead of the simple hole they are a larger almost mini room with a hole in the floor going down to the hallways. This is much more alien friendly.
  • SLizerSLizer Join Date: 2003-11-07 Member: 22363Members, Constellation
    I really like the whole map. It has propably the most diverse parts of all maps. You have the open marine friendly side of bio and more cranked side of vent/furni. This was by far the most played map on gathers around here in Finland as Tomekki said.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    While a good map, I have a number of issues with some features:

    -Most halls are long and marine friendly, only occasonally offering cover. While there is a decent vent system, give the halls I would have liked to see a complete vent system that would allow an alien to reach any point on the map via vents. It's far too easy to camp the vent from furnace to ventilation (or vice versa) when securing a hive and this makes any attempt to thrart that fruitless

    -The area outside furnace is a campfest for marines, who can set up in a back corner and pick off anything. Alternate routes to the area outside furnace are needed. Vent isn't much better, although there is a bit of cover.

    -Biodome elevators are a nuisance to both teams, depending on who holds it. If held by marines the aliens have a hard time busting it since the upper evolutions can be easily trapped and killed. The same can be said if held by aliens, although in this case the marines can siege.

    -I've never like double nodes on maps, since they are too great a temptation. If aliens start in vent hive and marines want double, you have to fight continuously to hold it or lose the game.

    -Marine start with the two doors is another trap for upper level evolutions. That leaves the only remaining opening a gauntlet. Doors shouldn't be used in hive/spawn areas if at all possible.

    -Unlike other maps, hives on this map are only marine accessible from a single main access route to that hive. While the hives have a second entrace route, it is a VENT and not a 'hallway', making a marine approach awkward in those cases when they are forced to use the vent to get in.

    Regards,

    Savant
  • kill4thrillskill4thrills Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29506Members, Constellation
    origin is a map that looks good but plays horribly. double (cargo bay) has major faults, some of which already mentioned

    1. double res node areas are always bad
    2. way too close to marine start, relocs here are common
    3. cargo is the only way onos can get into vent hive. and marines hold it more often than not due to reasons above
    4. ladder down to vent hive is awkward and hard to use for marines, gorges, and onos

    this makes origin a poor map in my books.
  • MrGunnerMrGunner Join Date: 2003-01-03 Member: 11757Members, Constellation
    It needs a ramp at the elevator by the hive in Biodome, and the vent from vent to ore needs to zig-zag or something so marines can't just cruise down it without worries. A vent from furnace to somewhere high in ore would be nice too so you don't have to go through the small corridor or the whole way around to the back vent into ore. The rest of the map is fine though.
  • KeamosKeamos Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32981Members, Constellation
    I find the map a little marine biased:

    If they have Furnace as starting hive, just hold base node+comp lab+xeno+bio. If they have Vent, hold base+comp lab+xeno+double. If they have Biodome, hold base+laser drilling+double. Either way you have 4 or 5 nodes, which is a nice amount.
  • KaMiKaZe1KaMiKaZe1 Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members
    I scribbled up this detailed map analysis outlining any notable dangers, and some of my favourite dominating strategies.
  • UKchaosUKchaos Join Date: 2002-08-10 Member: 1132Members
    hah, wow.

    looks like you spent quite a bit of time on that! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
  • CyndaneCyndane Join Date: 2003-11-15 Member: 22913Members
    Kami, it would be nice if you would have included a legend so we understand what the pink thick lines are.
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