6 Vs 6, Competitive
digz
be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
be still, maggot Join Date: 2002-05-07 Member: 588Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Alien side.</div> Id like to get into a serious discussion concerning how the alien side tends to progress in a competitive match. Compared to the marine tech tree, the aliens have more of a straight forward, do or die type of strategy.
Usually, alien side, heres how I see it going down using a typical player strat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Match begins:
2 players save for fade. 1 player saves for hive. 3 remaining drop res/chambers.
Prehive 2:
1-2 fades on the board. 1 player Lerks. 2-3 nodes dropped. Hive dropped. 3 chambers dropped. (total of 3-4 alien nodes on the map, 3 H1 chambers dropped)
Hive 2 up:
2-3 fades on the board. Lerk. 3 chambers being dropped. Resnodes recapped/last players reserving res.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my observations, this is a pretty straight forward designation most competitive teams use (unless, of course they are going to specificaly lerk rush, chamber rush, which pretty much decides the game in the first few minutes). For now, I will be refering to the above.
We all know why this works, because it wins the game, but I would like to expand the horizons a little and ask for feedback where there can be tradeoffs on roles. Because as of that strat above, if you lose a player class (especially one or both of the fades) you lose the game. As of now, as soon as those fades come on the board, they are playing the game for the team. Its like watching a baseball game, its just between the batter and the pitcher (fade and which marines hes disabling). Sure, skulks are usefull... for taking out res, and for scouting. Lerks are usefull... as support with either umbra or spore. Gorges... another support unit. As soon as the fades hit the board, the game play switches to soley keep the fade alive and letting it do its job. Now, Im not questioning WHY this is, but I would like to see a development where there is less dependency on the fade, but Im not taking its role out of the picture. I believe this is possible, now so more then ever, for two reasons: free upgrades, Skulks are just THAT much more powerfull as soon as you drop those chambers; faster res flow, You get free upgrades, live longer, get more rfk - all three are tied together and let you get res faster.
Thoughts:
Less fades on the board. Lets say only 1 player goes fade untill after the 1st hive goes up. This frees up 50 res to be used somewhere in the game. Why not have 2 additional lerks support the fade. Or, completely postpone the chamber drop untill you are ready to drop the hive (2 early lerks in the game, both save for chambers and UNlerk when they need to drop chambers). Or as lame as it sounds, actually drop 4 offence chambers in a key location (ala cargo on tanith) (yes, I realise OCs are weak, but they are almost never used in a match). If a marine team is planning to JP rush, wouldnt a few ocs in a siege location/hive almost be invaluable? Yes, I know, Im crazy like that.
It is easier to lerk at the fade mark then earlier in the game, imho, because of the shotguns that will be given out to the marines to combat the fade. Its easier for a lerk to sit back and pump out the spore to bring that armor to lvl 0.
If a team of marines walks into an open space, sees a group of 3-4 ocs they will think two things "gotta get around those" or "I need to take those out". 1 lonesome oc, I agree, is nothing, but in groups they can be a great deterant. Especially now the in final marines are leaning towards locking down hives, with less res to spend on upgrades, I can see the benefits of locking down siege areas with OCs. Are they permanint, no, but I do believe they could give you those extra 60 seconds to get that hive built. In competitive play, that 30-40 res in OCs is scary, and I realise that, but if they weren't placed randomly and held something strategic that could make or break the game they should be considered.
Ok, I just did alot of typing, probably alot of grammatical mystakes and didnt get my points accross the best way. Ill edit as needed <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> but I would like genuine feedback as to why something just wouldnt work, OR how you would make something work (ala, sure, we allways go one fade but you need like 3 lerks to supports etc etc).
Usually, alien side, heres how I see it going down using a typical player strat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Match begins:
2 players save for fade. 1 player saves for hive. 3 remaining drop res/chambers.
Prehive 2:
1-2 fades on the board. 1 player Lerks. 2-3 nodes dropped. Hive dropped. 3 chambers dropped. (total of 3-4 alien nodes on the map, 3 H1 chambers dropped)
Hive 2 up:
2-3 fades on the board. Lerk. 3 chambers being dropped. Resnodes recapped/last players reserving res.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my observations, this is a pretty straight forward designation most competitive teams use (unless, of course they are going to specificaly lerk rush, chamber rush, which pretty much decides the game in the first few minutes). For now, I will be refering to the above.
We all know why this works, because it wins the game, but I would like to expand the horizons a little and ask for feedback where there can be tradeoffs on roles. Because as of that strat above, if you lose a player class (especially one or both of the fades) you lose the game. As of now, as soon as those fades come on the board, they are playing the game for the team. Its like watching a baseball game, its just between the batter and the pitcher (fade and which marines hes disabling). Sure, skulks are usefull... for taking out res, and for scouting. Lerks are usefull... as support with either umbra or spore. Gorges... another support unit. As soon as the fades hit the board, the game play switches to soley keep the fade alive and letting it do its job. Now, Im not questioning WHY this is, but I would like to see a development where there is less dependency on the fade, but Im not taking its role out of the picture. I believe this is possible, now so more then ever, for two reasons: free upgrades, Skulks are just THAT much more powerfull as soon as you drop those chambers; faster res flow, You get free upgrades, live longer, get more rfk - all three are tied together and let you get res faster.
Thoughts:
Less fades on the board. Lets say only 1 player goes fade untill after the 1st hive goes up. This frees up 50 res to be used somewhere in the game. Why not have 2 additional lerks support the fade. Or, completely postpone the chamber drop untill you are ready to drop the hive (2 early lerks in the game, both save for chambers and UNlerk when they need to drop chambers). Or as lame as it sounds, actually drop 4 offence chambers in a key location (ala cargo on tanith) (yes, I realise OCs are weak, but they are almost never used in a match). If a marine team is planning to JP rush, wouldnt a few ocs in a siege location/hive almost be invaluable? Yes, I know, Im crazy like that.
It is easier to lerk at the fade mark then earlier in the game, imho, because of the shotguns that will be given out to the marines to combat the fade. Its easier for a lerk to sit back and pump out the spore to bring that armor to lvl 0.
If a team of marines walks into an open space, sees a group of 3-4 ocs they will think two things "gotta get around those" or "I need to take those out". 1 lonesome oc, I agree, is nothing, but in groups they can be a great deterant. Especially now the in final marines are leaning towards locking down hives, with less res to spend on upgrades, I can see the benefits of locking down siege areas with OCs. Are they permanint, no, but I do believe they could give you those extra 60 seconds to get that hive built. In competitive play, that 30-40 res in OCs is scary, and I realise that, but if they weren't placed randomly and held something strategic that could make or break the game they should be considered.
Ok, I just did alot of typing, probably alot of grammatical mystakes and didnt get my points accross the best way. Ill edit as needed <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> but I would like genuine feedback as to why something just wouldnt work, OR how you would make something work (ala, sure, we allways go one fade but you need like 3 lerks to supports etc etc).
Comments
Depending on the map and starting hive you could drop 3 rt's and then have one gorge drop one chamber and one gorge drop 2. That way you get a fast three nodes, and some chambers early, but you don't get the third one untill late.
You will probably have to shoot 2 sg shots at a skulk with silence, celerity or carapace to kill it. Skulks = very important and should not be underestimated at any point of the game.
[quote]if you lose a player class (especially one or both of the fades) you lose the game.[/qoute]
Depends on when you lose your fades, if you have 2nd hive up then it wont be a problem as lerk + skulks with leap, carapace and silence/celerity will take care of any marines. Losing one fade doesn't mean that you'll lose the game, you'll just have to coordinate attacks better with skulks, assuming that you have one fade alive(should have a fair chance of winning without fades aswell, as long as someone bites res).
[Quote] Or, completely postpone the chamber drop untill you are ready to drop the hive (2 early lerks in the game, both save for chambers and UNlerk when they need to drop chambers).[/qoute]
Two lerks wont be able to compensate for the loss of early chambers. Also, In my opinion, a stratagy that includes having two lerks unlerk is just wrong.
[quote]Or as lame as it sounds, actually drop 4 offence chambers in a key location (ala cargo on tanith)[/quote]
Lets assume that aliens have now put down 4 offence chambers in cargo, these offence chambers have been put there on the cost of either a fade, rt or having fewer skulks early-game. The commander discovers these offence chambers and order marines to run into fusion without bothering with the OCs. All the commander has to do is med the marines untill they are inside. Once inside they just have to hold fusion while waiting for pg tech to finish.
I do not mind a stratagy that has a late fade, we use a similar tactic like that in BM, the late fade gets an rt in the beginning.
But the other options for not having two fades that you are suggesting, they just don't seem very appealing to me.
-- For some reason [Quote][/Quote] doesn't seem to work for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will probably have to shoot 2 sg shots at a skulk with silence, celerity or carapace to kill it. Skulks = very important and should not be underestimated at any point of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although this is true, in a competitive match I feel the star of the game is the fade. Skulks are more or less cannon fodder, they will take 2 shotgun blasts so that the fade only has to deal with 6.
If you lose all your fades, and do not have enouph res to put them on the board again even if you have 2 hives, I do not believe that a hive will stand a chance with a marine push or two. Which is why I brought this subject up, what can be done to lessen the blow a team takes when losing a fade. Why cant 4 skulks put out the harrasment as a fade succesfully?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets assume that aliens have now put down 4 offence chambers in cargo, these offence chambers have been put there on the cost of either a fade, rt or having fewer skulks early-game. The commander discovers these offence chambers and order marines to run into fusion without bothering with the OCs. All the commander has to do is med the marines untill they are inside. Once inside they just have to hold fusion while waiting for pg tech to finish.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just some speculation, but I would assume that the res spent medding and the time spent waiting would hinder the marines rather then help them. Having 4 marines hold fusion while 5 skulks rush MS sounds like a decent tradeoff.
In my opinion it is often the lerk that decides the game once its up. If you have a lerk sporing them constantly(we assume that this is a very good lerk and a lerk that does not try to bite marines to often) and a skulk that is biting rts, the marine-rush will come very late. When the rush comes, a lerk who spore them and skulks ambushing along the way is often enough to prevent the attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you lose all your fades, and do not have enouph res to put them on the board again even if you have 2 hives, I do not believe that a hive will stand a chance with a marine push or two. Which is why I brought this subject up, what can be done to lessen the blow a team takes when losing a fade. Why cant 4 skulks put out the harrasment as a fade succesfully?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have 2 hives, a lerk that spore and umbra, skulks with leap and for example focus/silence. I do not see how marines would manage to even reach a hive when facing this. If they manage to reach the hive, you should remember that siege is practically useless and that a lerk will constantly be putting umbra on the hive.
Edit: It would be possible for them to reach the 2nd hive and perhaps take it down if they are very well organized, got hmgs and perhaps HA. But this require marines to hold rts for a long while. Im not saying its not possible, I know we've managed to take down the second hive when playing with teamsweden, but in the end we lost as we could not keep our rts and at the same time keep pushing their remaining rts as efficient as we would have liked.
Fades are an important lifeform and while they are key to alien victory, an alien team without a fade is also to be feared, as their team now has extra skulks for defense and node takedowns. If the marine team doesn't pressure hard after killing a fade in the early to midgame they can end up spending too much time holding nodes and recapping instead of pushing for the win. This gives the alien team time to get up an extra node or two and get fades back up.
More games are won by a team that knows how to react to everything that can happen then teams with high skill.
Where can tactics be changed? If you believe that more skulks on the board in the later half of the game is accpetable( let alone survivable), what happens if you want to reverse the situation? Why not -postpone- the fades, and attain the upgraded abilities before marines have a chance to counter? What if we get 3 lerks on the board right away, and the first one to 50 gets to fade? How does that impact the match? Why not just save for onos? Why not use OCs with upgraded chambers with a strategic point of the map that will be guarded by skulks.
Again, speculation. Id like to hear your thoughts as to why something doesnt work for the team, not how the marines are going to counter it.
That said, I think your assertion that alien strategies are the same every game is wrong. The number of gorges, what they drop, and when they drop it can all impact how aliens play the early game, sometimes in a small way but sometimes in very big ways. Early lerks and ocs have their places as well, so there's plenty of variety in early game strats. There is variety in the mid and end game portions as well, mostly in dealing with what chambers get dropped, but also what lifeforms to use, how much you want to stress getting the third hive, etc.
I generalised, I stereo typed, and I wanted you to look at the proccess of the competitive tech tree. Does any team regularly win with a strat that doesn't resemble my initial post? What can be changed, reversed, or emphasized differently?
*2 early fades, 1 rt->whatever is needed, 1 rt->lerk, 1 chambers, 1 hive
+ You get 2 early fades. No "permgorge".
- Lerk comes late but it's not to bad as it will be up at about the same time as the 2nd hive is placed. Only 2 rts in the begining, making it very important that you defend those 2 rts with all you got as you can not risk losing one of them, losing on of them is very risky and might lead to alien losing.
*2 early fades, 1 rt->lerk, 1 rt->whatever is needed, 1 rt->chambers(never ungorges), 1 hive
+ You get 2 early fades. 3 RTs - meaning you can afford losing one and still stand a good chance of winning.
- You lose one skulk on the field for a couple of minutes(the most important minutes in the game(?)) The "permgorge" will however have a pretty good resflow.
*1 early fade, 1 lerk, 1 rt->whatever is needed, 1 rt->fade, 1 rt->chambers(never ungorges), 1 hive
+/- Same as the previous tactic but change the early fade to an early lerk.
*1 early fade, 1 rt->whatever is needed, 1 rt->lerk, 1 rt->fade, 1 chambers, 1 hive
+ 3 Rts! No "permgorge"-
- Only one fade, secound should come up at about the same time as it is needed the most.
*1 early fade, 1 lerk, 1 rt->whatever is needed, 1 rt->lerk, 1 chambers, 1 hive
+/- Same as first tactic, change one fade to lerk.
I might have missed some +/-, but this should help the discussion.
You cant really say anything more about these tactics, you'll have to constantly adapt to the situation. Improvise. Tactics are changed all the time during clanmatches.
Most good strategies leave a lot of room for improvisation and the standard 2 nodes with 2x fades or fade/early lerk leaves 2 players for recapping early lost nodes or going fade/lerk if you can hold your nodes until 2nd hive gets up. No one really wants to mix it up too much as anything else is risky and won't work very well against high level teams. Plus you have to practice the strat all week against other clans and someone is bound to give away any crazy strat to the other team.
Generally speaking an RT that is at a slightly greater risk due to no OC defence is worth more in overall res flow then an RT defended by 3 ocs, since the latter RC takes 3 minutes to pay for itself, whereas the former takes only one.
<span style='color:red'>There's no requirement to be personally abusive. It's not smart, it's not even funny in this instance, it's just indicative of a lack of self-control. Stop doing it or your ability to do it on these will be removed.</span>
OCs are superbly worthwhile. Crappy strats with dedicated OC gorges are not.
whos with me!
The best place to put OCs in the version is most likely in building hives since it's almost impossible to successfully siege a hive.
If marines notice you are putting up OCs in your building hive, they will either go for your first hive, or try to save up res for HA. Both tactics have a very small chance of succeeding.
I've seen everything from lerk rushes, to traditional strats, to early onoses. If your team can play well together and compensate for each other's weaknesses, almost anything will work. One strat that I like using lately is a 2 early lerk, 1 movement/fade, 1 hive, and 2 rt/chambers. The two early lerks can hold off anything except heavies by themselves and are more than capable of res killing as well as 2nd hive defense.
Another strat that I've been using recently is very forgiving to the aliens and doesn't have a real counter. You'll have to watch the LoC vs FeX match to find out what it is though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
onos with 75 res come too late, and skulks and lerks wont last long against the united firepower of the marines
thats why fades are so important, they come in at the right time and still are supreme fighters
so why should you save for onos, if you need the fightingpower now?
I have tried other tacts that are more appropiate for clan matches.
The first of them, now its pointless but in the beta 5 it was D:
3fades 2rts 1 hive: 1 gorge stays as gorge and goes to the hive, then he starts building the chambers dc's or mc's(i always used dcs) 1 per 1. When the first fade appears 2 dcs are builded and the third just dropped and building.
This tact gives u the same as the def tact, but 1 more fade. And now u are going to ask, what happen if the gorge dies? Nothing >.< the only thing u have to do is to tell to one fade to build the chambers and u get the default tact.
Tanith: RT rush.
1fade, 1hive, 3rt(then fade), 1rt(stay as gorge and build movs).
You get the first fade and hive at min 2:00 with 2 movs. The other fades appear all at min 4:00 . This means that by min 5:00 u win the game.
Of course if marines are intelligent and they kill 2 or more rts u are **** up. But if ur aliens are decent they will be able to protect the nodes. The other thing i have tried is that another gorge instead of going fade build 2 ocs in cargo. But this only work if the marines took 1:30 for getting into cargo :s
NS 3.0 Final has created other tacticts, and this ones now seem useless. The point is FREE UPGRADES = skulks with cel strafe jumping or bhopping impossible to kill, or 1 lerk at the beginning with cel portecting the nodes. things like that.
So for example for thanith it would be:
1lerk,1hive,2rt(then fade),2rt(then go to the hive and build 1 mc each one of them).
With one skilled lerk rt's simply doesnt die. And with one skilled lerk with cel marines are **** up.
Of course u can start with sens and build one sens in cargo at the beginning like teamcanada vs teamspain or many other possibilities. But it is extremely important to have the chambers at the beginning even if they are dcs. Skulks with caparace vs marines without wpn lvl rock.
I only have to say that NS is not a frags based game anymore. Since beta 5 it has become a rt's based game. It doesnt matter if marines in veil cant get out of topo and west, cause when ur fades appears with those 2 nodes they can have hmg's and kill ur 50res worthy fades. So in your tact you have to have ALWAYS at min 1:30 someone trying to kill their base. And the 2 gorges that builded rts killing marine ones.
I have seen how marines lost the game, cause they builded pg in cargo(tanith) and were going to build sieges. I told my whole team to stop rushing cargo and to go and kill rts. 45 sec after marines got only 1 rt, the base one. And the fade was distracting them in cargo. They upgraded the tf, but didnt have res to build the sieges. And after that we rushed cargo, killed the tf, and they recicled the pg.
If u defend your rts(with a lerk+cel) and have 2 skulks killing the whole game marine ones = u win as alien, always in NS 3.0 Final. It doesnt matter if u are a noob team or not, it doesnt matter that marines are teh rockZ0rZ, the only thing u have to pay attention is to have a skilled lerk.
I hope i have help someone, and sorry for my english it is very bad :>
So it's only based on 'alien class'... fades or lerks... They do; ok! they die; bad luck!
It may include some variations, but still the same thing. This not a real strategy based on chamber (abilities). Abilities that makes alien differents from Marins. You should be able to make a 'only skulk' strat with a boosted ability.
I agree a strategy include the type of pawns a team have. But here (NS) it's barely always the same ones...
I think this is exactly what motivated the first post. It becomes boring.
I disaggre with this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I only have to say that NS is not a frags based game anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RFK is the proof of the oposite. Early version of NS was the map/res control and that was fun (epic??? ho no don't lock the thread).
So it's only based on 'alien class'... fades or lerks... They do; ok! they die; bad luck!
It may include some variations, but still the same thing. This not a real strategy based on chamber (abilities). Abilities that makes alien differents from Marins. You should be able to make a 'only skulk' strat with a boosted ability.
I agree a strategy include the type of pawns a team have. But here (NS) it's barely always the same ones...
I think this is exactly what motivated the first post. It becomes boring.
I disaggre with this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I only have to say that NS is not a frags based game anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
RFK is the proof of the oposite. Early version of NS was the map/res control and that was fun (epic??? ho no don't lock the thread). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is a first person shooter and in a degree influenced by real time strategy games. In both genres killing the other teams units/players is important. That is also the case in NS, and has been since the original release. It has, however, nothing to do what so ever with RFK, the importance of ridding the map of your enemy will be there regardless of RFK.
[Edit] "epic", pah.
Don't forget RFK is "easy money" for marins. The more you frag the more you get rich. And it's more easy (no upgreades) at the begining. This makes teams tend to exclude different ways of getting rid of the enemy. The smarter ways...
"How" a team get rid of the enemy should be more fun than the frag itself (both side).
I remember a time were players kept the frag count out of the mind. They were more organized because not running after 'living ressources' all the time... They looked at the map (showmap) to see where they have to go to maintain pressure on the enemy. There was real map strategy to stop the enemy. There was a risk to loose even if you had the upper hand from the begining until the end. At least more than today.
Most of those illogical and incorrect statements are true for all levels of play except the top competitive tier. It is pretty stupid to come into the competitive forum and state them, however.
Most of those illogical and incorrect statements are true for all levels of play except the top competitive tier. It is pretty stupid to come into the competitive forum and state them, however. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not in his case. RFK has almost no bearing on competitive play.