<!--QuoteBegin-Venmoch+Mar 31 2005, 09:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Venmoch @ Mar 31 2005, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also while reading this topic Silent Hill 2 comes to mind. Because this was one of the situations addressed in it. (In fact IIRC Theres an interesting period of speech near the end when James says why he killed Mary) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry to derail slightly, but in SH2, James kills Mary for his own selfish reasons. As Mary became more and more ill, she became more of a burden on him, so when he killed her, it wasn't to end her pain, it was so he could be free again, and not having her hold him back.
In short, James is a total git. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I could go more into detail, but this isn't a SH2 story thread. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Mar 31 2005, 05:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Mar 31 2005, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pepe, I stopped reading your second link when I got to this part: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we allow the terminally ill or severely disabled to consent to the ultimate crime, murder, then wouldn't it also be reasonable to allow them to consent to a lesser crime? Suppose that a woman had a living will which stated if she were ever brain dead, she would want her body to be sent to a nearby prison where she could be beaten, raped, and subjected to the wildest desires of the inmates. Since she would be brain dead and could feel no pain, this would be a final way for her to provide some satisfaction to some of our less fortunate members of society. Should this utilitarian disposition of a human body be legal?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .... Comparing a woman giving her braindead body up for the sexual pleasure of prisoners, to a woman who would rather not live for 14+ years as a vegetable and just wants it to end....I can't even think of anything polite to say about that.
On a side note, my sympathies to you Commie. I don't know how long ago you lost your brother, but I'm certain it couldn't have been pleasant feeling the media rip those emotional scars open again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The pain is nothing compared to the pain I feel in my head when I read they feel justified in telling someone else how to live their life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Handman+Mar 31 2005, 07:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Handman @ Mar 31 2005, 07:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for whether Schiavo should have lived or died, I don't really care either way. I just think starvation is the way to go, though it is the common practice with coma victim. The only real problem I have with the husband's actions is that he kicked the family out in her final moments. That is a d*** move. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I woulda done the same. After all the garbage they put him through they're lucky they were even there to see her. If I was in his position I wouldn't even let them see her goddamn urn of ashes. And I'm still waiting on the explanation of how god was going to solidify her cerebral cortex and how she was going to make a full recovery. I'm a christian but my god some of the stuff you people spew is insanity
It's a sad case no matter what way you look at it. And there is no good choice that can be made, that's what makes it such a tough case. As a diverse person I can easily see the difficulties felt from all sides on this case.
The main thing that worries me is how this very personal, difficult, and sad has be come the hot entertaining news topic in the US. Not only does intense limelight media pressure wreak havoc on people's lives when it is personal, but it also degrades the value of your life and my life. Unless your goal it to compete with Terri in getting the most attention is unlikely such a situation will ever become this big a news topic again.
<!--QuoteBegin-CWAG+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CWAG)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The pain is nothing compared to the pain I feel in my head when I read they feel justified in telling someone else how to live their life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I may take this sentence out of the debate context here to emphasize what an important line but overlooked line this is. Just let me pause this debate for one moment to go off topic.
*paused*
The specific part I'm talking about is: "they feel justified in telling someone else how to live their life." I don't want anyone to tell me how to live my own life. Most things are not worth fighting for and most can be resolved peacefully without fighting. A good karateman should always say that violence is always the last resort. But there are a few things which are very important and worth fighting for, worth dying for. And <i>freedom is one of those few.</i> I hope, I really really hope other US citizens understand just how precious freedom is and also be seriously willing to if necessary fight and die for it.
Thank you for your time, please resume your debate
<!--QuoteBegin-Venmoch+Mar 31 2005, 01:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Venmoch @ Mar 31 2005, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its time to move on. Seriously, shes dead nothing you do or say will bring her back. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT
And to all those of you out there who claimed "God wants Terri Chaivo to live!", (not to flame, but) you're <i><b>really</i></b> arrogent if you think you know what God wants. God is a supreme being who's goals and mental processes are unknown to us and completely beyond our ability to comprehend. If you think you know what's going on in His head, you probably think you know the universal cure to all diseases too.
I must confess, I'm disgusted by the Christian Right. This is really a first for me, since I normally agree with them on so many points. I actually feel sad that I couldn't side with them.
Even if you count out the financial waste of keeping a person alive on feeding tubes, you also count out what you could be doing to a person's soul. LET THEM DIE. Life has a beginning and an END. Terry Schiavo's time to die was, what, 14 years ago? Doctor's kept her "alive" on a feeding tube. I can only imagine how her soul must have felt.
This is blatant hypocrisy from the Christian Right. Not a single one of them would want to keep their soul trapped in their body for 14 years, and they're the one's who champion the idea of the soul being all important more than any other group.
Get a grip Christians. This isn't Euthanasia, this is letting the dead die.
And why is this important anyways? Is the Christian Right so motivated that they have to die on every hill? Most of us in the Real World said "pull the goddamn plug" the second we read about it.
If we hadn't invented feeding tubes, she would of been dead a long time, so let her die, this isn't murder, it's nature doing it's thing. Sure when science can intervene and save a life, that's great but in a situation like this, science can't help, it can only sustain "life." (Life in quotes because I feel she was more dead than alive most likely.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Amped!+Mar 31 2005, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amped! @ Mar 31 2005, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People are better off when they don't play God. They get too confused on what is right and wrong. (Cloning, perfect genes, feeding tubes, etc.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're saying that people shouldn't be given medical care?
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Apr 1 2005, 12:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Apr 1 2005, 12:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we hadn't invented feeding tubes, she would of been dead a long time, so let her die, this isn't murder, it's nature doing it's thing. Sure when science can intervene and save a life, that's great but in a situation like this, science can't help, it can only sustain "life." (Life in quotes because I feel she was more dead than alive most likely.)
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't just the tube, it's the medical care that saved her from dying in the first place. Without the incredible techniques we have to save people from heart attacks, Terri Schiavo never would have survived in the condition she was in. But modern medicine is now capable of keeping people alive and fixing just enough that they can end up in states like PVS, damaged in their brain beyond repair, but still technically alive.
This problem is only going to get worse as time goes on and technology improves and we can save worse and worse cases. Heck, we really are NOT that far away from being able to keep decapitated bodies with a missing head alive!
<!--QuoteBegin-esuna+Mar 31 2005, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (esuna @ Mar 31 2005, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry to derail slightly, but in SH2, James kills Mary for his own selfish reasons. As Mary became more and more ill, she became more of a burden on him, so when he killed her, it wasn't to end her pain, it was so he could be free again, and not having her hold him back.
In short, James is a total git. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Woo more derailage!
True James is a little bit of a git. Its just clever how they make him seem like a nice man and then twist it to make is deliciously sinister <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
However doesn't Mary say in the "full letter" at the end of the game that she can see why James may be getting annoyed.
The quote in question.....
<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Hill 2+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent Hill 2)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I'm afraid James. I'm afraid you don't really want me to come home.
Whenever you come see me, I can tell how hard it is on you...
I don't know if you hate me or pity me... Or maybe I just disgust you... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then theres this quote.... Which in relation to the current thing thats happening seems all so similar.
<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Hill 2 Ending+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent Hill 2 Ending)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's why I want you to live for yourself now. Do what's best for you, James.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I think that Mary says it was a good thing James killed her when he's talking to her. Although that one is ending specific.
I think I will post the whole full letter from Silent Hill 2 because it also seems applicable....
<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Hill 2+ Marys Letter--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent Hill 2 @ Marys Letter)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In my restless dreams, I see that town.
Silent Hill.
You promised me you'd take me there again someday. But you never did.
Well, I'm alone there now...
In our "special place" Waiting for you...
Waiting for you to come to see me.
But you never do.
And so I wait, wrapped in my cocoon of pain and loneliness.
I know I've done a terrible thing to you. Something you'll never forgive me for.
I wish I could change that, but I can't.
I feel so pathetic and ugly laying here, waiting for you...
Every day I stare up at the cracks in the ceiling and all I can think about is how unfair it all is...
The doctor came today. He told me I could go home for a short stay.
It's not that I'm getting better. It's just that this may be my last chance...
I think you know what I mean...
Even so, I'm glad to be coming home. I've missed you terribly.
But I'm afraid James. I'm afraid you don't really want me to come home.
Whenever you come see me, I can tell how hard it is on you...
I don't know if you hate me or pity me... Or maybe I just disgust you...
I'm sorry about that.
When I first learned that I was going to die, I just didn't want to accept it.
I was so angry all the time and I struck out at everyone I loved most. Especially you, James.
That's why I understand if you do hate me.
But I want you to know this, James.
I'll always love you.
Even though our life together had to end like this, I still wouldn't trade it for the world. We had some wonderful years together.
Well this letter has gone on too long so I'll say goodbye.
I told the nurse to give this to you after I'm gone.
That means that as you read this, I'm already dead.
I can't tell you to remember me, but I can't bear for you to forget me.
These last few years since I became ill...I'm so sorry for what I did to you, did to us...
You've given me so much and I haven't been able to return a single thing.
That's why I want you to live for yourself now. Do what's best for you, James.
James...
You made me happy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Mar 31 2005, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Mar 31 2005, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Amped!+Mar 31 2005, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amped! @ Mar 31 2005, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People are better off when they don't play God. They get too confused on what is right and wrong. (Cloning, perfect genes, feeding tubes, etc.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're saying that people shouldn't be given medical care? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a very big difference between playing God and administering medical care.
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+Apr 1 2005, 10:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade @ Apr 1 2005, 10:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's a very big difference between playing God and administering medical care. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really.
Little difference between the two except in one you're creating life in an unnatural way, and the other you're slapping away death's hand as he reaches for the cookie jar. Both are intervening with the natural processes of the world, which is "playing god". Just one is more "acceptable" than the other.
I'm personally glad she's died. She's finally free of that bed and her defunct mind. I believe in free choice. If someone what's to die, then that's their prerogative.
And I somehow doubt any of you would want to be stuck in the same situation as she was if it came to it. Bed ridden, unablle to communicate with and comprehend your surroundings in an adequate fashion. Where the only way you're actually classed as alive is a technicality.
<!--QuoteBegin-Renegade+Apr 1 2005, 05:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Renegade @ Apr 1 2005, 05:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Mar 31 2005, 09:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Mar 31 2005, 09:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Amped!+Mar 31 2005, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Amped! @ Mar 31 2005, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People are better off when they don't play God. They get too confused on what is right and wrong. (Cloning, perfect genes, feeding tubes, etc.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're saying that people shouldn't be given medical care? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a very big difference between playing God and administering medical care. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You think that using feeding tubes is playing God? What about an appendectomy? What about heart bypass surgery? What about medication for someone who has AIDS?
These are all methods of sustaining life in people that would have died without help.
In Terri's case, I'm really asking myself why the tube was left in so long? The purpose of medical care is to fix/heal someone's body so that they can resume an active, productive life. In this case, that was not going to happen so I personally don't understand the argument for leaving the tube in at all.
Also, since when did death become this nasty, evil thing that MUST be avoided at all costs? Death (in and of itself) is not evil, nasty or bad, it's perfectly natural and it is a consequence of being alive. Yet it seems that death has sort of turned into this evil thing that people will do anything to prevent, even to the extreme in Terri's case.
Living longer, which is the ultimate purpose of medical care, is a worthy goal worth striving for, yet we have to realise that after a certain point, we have done all we can and that death is the next reasonable step.
I think that it's about time that the feeding tube was removed. She has been in this vegetative state for years now and was surviving on the feeding tube. Since she was in a vegetative state, she really did not know what was happening to her and knew very little about what was going on around her. I mean, sure, she could interact a little with people, but aside from that, her brain was only controlling essential body functions. I doubt that they could have gotten her to speak again. After this many years, if she hasn't learned to talk yet, then it will not happen. He may have wanted to cover something up, like his alleged beatings, but no one can prove it now and either way he's a free man. Personally, I think that if he was trying to cover something up, he would have fought hard like this many years ago, not just now. We'll see what happens in the next year or so.
I've finally been able to decide that I am on the "She was already dead" side of the fence. If there was any reasonable chance of her coming out of that coma, then I probably wouldn't be, but as it stands now, I think it was better that she is no longer with us. HOWEVER, wouldn't it have been better to euthanize her instead of just taking her off the feeding tube and waiting? Or did I miss some explanation about how the husband would have gotten his *** handed to him in court if he did that.
One thing that does bother me is how this went beyond just a woman and into sensationalism. I mean, did she really need 15 minutes of bs fame? I think that's more of an insult than an honor.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Apr 2 2005, 12:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Apr 2 2005, 12:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Euthanization, while a great idea, is illegal.
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And beating your wife with nothing no larger than your thumb is still legal in a couple states.
<!--QuoteBegin-lolfighter+Apr 2 2005, 07:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Apr 2 2005, 07:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if I have a huge prosthetic thumb attached to my hand? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then the world is your oyster.
Comments
Sorry to derail slightly, but in SH2, James kills Mary for his own selfish reasons. As Mary became more and more ill, she became more of a burden on him, so when he killed her, it wasn't to end her pain, it was so he could be free again, and not having her hold him back.
In short, James is a total git. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I could go more into detail, but this isn't a SH2 story thread. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we allow the terminally ill or severely disabled to consent to the ultimate crime, murder, then wouldn't it also be reasonable to allow them to consent to a lesser crime? Suppose that a woman had a living will which stated if she were ever brain dead, she would want her body to be sent to a nearby prison where she could be beaten, raped, and subjected to the wildest desires of the inmates. Since she would be brain dead and could feel no pain, this would be a final way for her to provide some satisfaction to some of our less fortunate members of society. Should this utilitarian disposition of a human body be legal?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
....
Comparing a woman giving her braindead body up for the sexual pleasure of prisoners, to a woman who would rather not live for 14+ years as a vegetable and just wants it to end....I can't even think of anything polite to say about that.
On a side note, my sympathies to you Commie. I don't know how long ago you lost your brother, but I'm certain it couldn't have been pleasant feeling the media rip those emotional scars open again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pain is nothing compared to the pain I feel in my head when I read they feel justified in telling someone else how to live their life.
I woulda done the same. After all the garbage they put him through they're lucky they were even there to see her. If I was in his position I wouldn't even let them see her goddamn urn of ashes.
And I'm still waiting on the explanation of how god was going to solidify her cerebral cortex and how she was going to make a full recovery.
I'm a christian but my god some of the stuff you people spew is insanity
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The main thing that worries me is how this very personal, difficult, and sad has be come the hot entertaining news topic in the US. Not only does intense limelight media pressure wreak havoc on people's lives when it is personal, but it also degrades the value of your life and my life. Unless your goal it to compete with Terri in getting the most attention is unlikely such a situation will ever become this big a news topic again.
<!--QuoteBegin-CWAG+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CWAG)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The pain is nothing compared to the pain I feel in my head when I read they feel justified in telling someone else how to live their life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I may take this sentence out of the debate context here to emphasize what an important line but overlooked line this is. Just let me pause this debate for one moment to go off topic.
*paused*
The specific part I'm talking about is: "they feel justified in telling someone else how to live their life." I don't want anyone to tell me how to live my own life. Most things are not worth fighting for and most can be resolved peacefully without fighting. A good karateman should always say that violence is always the last resort. But there are a few things which are very important and worth fighting for, worth dying for. And <i>freedom is one of those few.</i> I hope, I really really hope other US citizens understand just how precious freedom is and also be seriously willing to if necessary fight and die for it.
Thank you for your time, please resume your debate
<span style='color:red'><b>x5</b></span>
*unpaused*
QFT
And to all those of you out there who claimed "God wants Terri Chaivo to live!", (not to flame, but) you're <i><b>really</i></b> arrogent if you think you know what God wants. God is a supreme being who's goals and mental processes are unknown to us and completely beyond our ability to comprehend. If you think you know what's going on in His head, you probably think you know the universal cure to all diseases too.
Even if you count out the financial waste of keeping a person alive on feeding tubes, you also count out what you could be doing to a person's soul. LET THEM DIE. Life has a beginning and an END. Terry Schiavo's time to die was, what, 14 years ago? Doctor's kept her "alive" on a feeding tube. I can only imagine how her soul must have felt.
This is blatant hypocrisy from the Christian Right. Not a single one of them would want to keep their soul trapped in their body for 14 years, and they're the one's who champion the idea of the soul being all important more than any other group.
Get a grip Christians. This isn't Euthanasia, this is letting the dead die.
And why is this important anyways? Is the Christian Right so motivated that they have to die on every hill? Most of us in the Real World said "pull the goddamn plug" the second we read about it.
~ DarkATi
So you're saying that people shouldn't be given medical care?
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't just the tube, it's the medical care that saved her from dying in the first place. Without the incredible techniques we have to save people from heart attacks, Terri Schiavo never would have survived in the condition she was in. But modern medicine is now capable of keeping people alive and fixing just enough that they can end up in states like PVS, damaged in their brain beyond repair, but still technically alive.
This problem is only going to get worse as time goes on and technology improves and we can save worse and worse cases. Heck, we really are NOT that far away from being able to keep decapitated bodies with a missing head alive!
In short, James is a total git. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woo more derailage!
True James is a little bit of a git. Its just clever how they make him seem like a nice man and then twist it to make is deliciously sinister <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
However doesn't Mary say in the "full letter" at the end of the game that she can see why James may be getting annoyed.
The quote in question.....
<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Hill 2+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent Hill 2)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I'm afraid James.
I'm afraid you don't really
want me to come home.
Whenever you come see me,
I can tell how hard it is on you...
I don't know if you
hate me or pity me...
Or maybe I just disgust you...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then theres this quote.... Which in relation to the current thing thats happening seems all so similar.
<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Hill 2 Ending+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent Hill 2 Ending)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That's why I want you to live
for yourself now.
Do what's best for you, James.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I think that Mary says it was a good thing James killed her when he's talking to her. Although that one is ending specific.
I think I will post the whole full letter from Silent Hill 2 because it also seems applicable....
<!--QuoteBegin-Silent Hill 2+ Marys Letter--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silent Hill 2 @ Marys Letter)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
In my restless dreams,
I see that town.
Silent Hill.
You promised me you'd take me
there again someday.
But you never did.
Well, I'm alone there now...
In our "special place"
Waiting for you...
Waiting for you to
come to see me.
But you never do.
And so I wait, wrapped in my
cocoon of pain and loneliness.
I know I've done a terrible
thing to you. Something you'll
never forgive me for.
I wish I could change
that, but I can't.
I feel so pathetic and ugly
laying here, waiting for you...
Every day I stare up at the cracks
in the ceiling and all I can think
about is how unfair it all is...
The doctor came today.
He told me I could go
home for a short stay.
It's not that I'm getting better.
It's just that this may be
my last chance...
I think you know what I mean...
Even so, I'm glad to be coming
home. I've missed you terribly.
But I'm afraid James.
I'm afraid you don't really
want me to come home.
Whenever you come see me,
I can tell how hard it is on you...
I don't know if you
hate me or pity me...
Or maybe I just disgust you...
I'm sorry about that.
When I first learned that
I was going to die, I just
didn't want to accept it.
I was so angry all the time and I
struck out at everyone I loved most.
Especially you, James.
That's why I understand
if you do hate me.
But I want you to
know this, James.
I'll always love you.
Even though our life together had
to end like this, I still wouldn't
trade it for the world. We had
some wonderful years together.
Well this letter has gone on
too long so I'll say goodbye.
I told the nurse to give
this to you after I'm gone.
That means that as you read
this, I'm already dead.
I can't tell you to remember me,
but I can't bear for you to
forget me.
These last few years since I
became ill...I'm so sorry for
what I did to you, did to us...
You've given me so much and
I haven't been able to return
a single thing.
That's why I want you to live
for yourself now.
Do what's best for you, James.
James...
You made me happy.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying that people shouldn't be given medical care? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a very big difference between playing God and administering medical care.
Not really.
Little difference between the two except in one you're creating life in an unnatural way, and the other you're slapping away death's hand as he reaches for the cookie jar. Both are intervening with the natural processes of the world, which is "playing god". Just one is more "acceptable" than the other.
I'm personally glad she's died. She's finally free of that bed and her defunct mind. I believe in free choice. If someone what's to die, then that's their prerogative.
And I somehow doubt any of you would want to be stuck in the same situation as she was if it came to it. Bed ridden, unablle to communicate with and comprehend your surroundings in an adequate fashion. Where the only way you're actually classed as alive is a technicality.
I know I wouldn't. That isn't life.
So you're saying that people shouldn't be given medical care? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a very big difference between playing God and administering medical care. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think that using feeding tubes is playing God? What about an appendectomy? What about heart bypass surgery? What about medication for someone who has AIDS?
These are all methods of sustaining life in people that would have died without help.
In Terri's case, I'm really asking myself why the tube was left in so long? The purpose of medical care is to fix/heal someone's body so that they can resume an active, productive life. In this case, that was not going to happen so I personally don't understand the argument for leaving the tube in at all.
Also, since when did death become this nasty, evil thing that MUST be avoided at all costs? Death (in and of itself) is not evil, nasty or bad, it's perfectly natural and it is a consequence of being alive. Yet it seems that death has sort of turned into this evil thing that people will do anything to prevent, even to the extreme in Terri's case.
Living longer, which is the ultimate purpose of medical care, is a worthy goal worth striving for, yet we have to realise that after a certain point, we have done all we can and that death is the next reasonable step.
Diazo
Warning: You may find content linked to be offensive. But if you do, it means you have no sense of humor.
Oh Maddox, how we love you.
One thing that does bother me is how this went beyond just a woman and into sensationalism. I mean, did she really need 15 minutes of bs fame? I think that's more of an insult than an honor.
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And beating your wife with nothing no larger than your thumb is still legal in a couple states.
GOOOOOOOOOO JUSTICE SYSTEM!
Then the world is your oyster.