Comm: Outposting
Chaos_Xero
Join Date: 2004-06-04 Member: 29112Members
Join Date: 2004-06-04 Member: 29112Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Does it work? Or is it just not used?</div> <!--emo&::tsa::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /><!--endemo--> <span style='font-family:courier'><span style='color:RED'><b><span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>Frontiersman Internal Memo : Stategy and Planning Section</span></b></span></span>
I dont command very often, but after learning a lot about the game, and what things work, im interested in trying it. So I have to ask about a tactic I was considering.
In most games I play the Phase Gate is used as a sort of, drop and rush device, or to make easy access to a captured hive. What I rarely see, is the <i>seemingly</i> unimportant areas being used as outposts. The way I see it (and please feel free to counter me here) a few (2-4) well defended outposts could be extremely benificial to the marine team. It would make easy access to otherwise far away areas, and make response times to a hive going up quicker. It could also help you get to that middle-of-nowhere Resource Tower that some skulk is biting.
So I guess the real question is:
Am I missing where this is used?
<i>IS</i>it a good idea?
Is it <u>cost efficient</u>?
What do you think?
<Sidenote> Im talking about some of the longer games that happen more often in 3.0, and not the lightning fast games on the good servers. </Sidenote>
I dont command very often, but after learning a lot about the game, and what things work, im interested in trying it. So I have to ask about a tactic I was considering.
In most games I play the Phase Gate is used as a sort of, drop and rush device, or to make easy access to a captured hive. What I rarely see, is the <i>seemingly</i> unimportant areas being used as outposts. The way I see it (and please feel free to counter me here) a few (2-4) well defended outposts could be extremely benificial to the marine team. It would make easy access to otherwise far away areas, and make response times to a hive going up quicker. It could also help you get to that middle-of-nowhere Resource Tower that some skulk is biting.
So I guess the real question is:
Am I missing where this is used?
<i>IS</i>it a good idea?
Is it <u>cost efficient</u>?
What do you think?
<Sidenote> Im talking about some of the longer games that happen more often in 3.0, and not the lightning fast games on the good servers. </Sidenote>
Comments
Making chokepoint bases like this are definately useful. For example, The Dome on ns_veil, right in between pipeline and cargo hives. Placing a TF and some turrets here early game with one hive, PG or not, can have a large effect on the aliens(most efficiently with cargo as hive, probably shouldnt do it otherwise). First and foremost, if the skulks choose to ignore the TF and turrets, they can no longer move through the Dome to east junction and Emergency nozzle efficiently. They can either go through the vent inside cargo hive, and move through to the elevator vent, and then either go all the way through pipe or continue through the vents to outside E nozzle. Or, they can run out of the opposite side of cargo, they would have to run past double through East junction. Either way it eats up time that skulks take to move from point A to B.
Seeing as speed at moving around the map is one of the skulks advantages, this can gimp them from moving around on that side of the map, because they have to detour to avoid it. If the skulks arent all that bright(or dont have a seasoned player instructing them to leave the TF alone) then you can REALLY distract them, and get some much needed resources for kills.
If they take it down, you'll probably have made back all or most of the res from it, if they dont take it down, you have a secure location right outside their hive. Station a one or two marines at the dome with the turrets and you pretty much will never lose that base to skulks.
In fact, you can really use turrets to their fullest at chokepoints with marines there. Any high traffic area can be used as a chokepoint, and using turrets alone won't always do much damage to the aliens game at all. Turrets aren't meant to be a stop all defense against aliens. Turrets are there to assist marines, not the other way around. If you have marines at your outposts you can hold them indefinately.
My main point is outposting can be good, but it needs to be used in the right places at the right times. Outposts aren't that great late game unless you sacrifice marines to stay at them and defend them with the turrets.
Excellent analysis. I see what you are trying to say, and testing it out, I noticed that an onos could easily tear apart an area like this given no opposition, and good upgrades. I also agree that they could be devastatingly unexpected. A few choice turrets in common, but seemingly unimportant areas could be a real pain for the alien team. It might buy some time, but the res cost could make this a problem.
Chokepoints will be expected... so they wouldnt have the same effect. Not all areas like the ones described are chokepoints. So unimportant ones could become important to you.
Overall, to answer my own questions earlier.
Given the right situation: It could work.
Thanks to everyone who responded. I may have to try this on a few servers and gauge reaction and effectiveness.
Please, continue to post if you have other suggestions/thoughts/ideas.
Remember, marines LOSE if the aliens get the second hive. 2nd hive is the game-ender. THAT is how important hives arein this game, and that is why you need to pour all of oyur resources in preventing them from getting one up. If the outpost is at a hive seige point, then by all means, go ahead.
giving quik access to Equlibirum and Cargo hive.
A: you want it near a rez node, that has acess to two rez nodes, one being a hive node.
B: Having a phase gate and mines is good enough
C: if your in a pub, drop an armory there and Drop SGs through the PG IF its not getting swamped. This will modivate your team to freaking phase through.
And since you have only one PG your in control of where they go.
Just spend the rest of your rez into SG and rush the nodes. hopefully they have em up so you can KILL them.
You need A1 and W1 though.
This works best in pubs.
Like on viel, making this at System waypointing or The dome.
idealy you keep the presure on the aliens with tones of SGs. Make sure to send one good marine to patrol and recap.
C: if your in a pub, drop an armory there and Drop SGs to patrol and recap. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ACtually all you need to win. I also like getting the adv armor on field if its late <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> some intrest to pg maybe?
But it became better since 3.0 final came out.
I had soem nice games with outposts that helped a lot against Scs.
Obs // RT // TF // 3 Turrets // PG // Armory
I just love to spawn and use the PG to get into a save/locked Room. You have everything you need there. Ammo / Meds / Anticloaking Device / Security (Turrets).
At the other hand...these are a lot of res. So the position should be really important (most of the times outposts occur at Dres Rooms) Its 105 res...thats a lot. But funny still...especially if the outpost is well placed
If you want to use such outposts i would suggest (if your comm) you create a server first.
- sv_cheats 1
- bigdig (into the console-->automatically builds dropped structures)
- givepoints (into the console-->gives you res)
this way you can search for good positions/placement of structures without too much work.
<a href='http://cheese.termi4all.de/relocate.jpg' target='_blank'>My Cargo Outpost</a>
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> dont take this outpost too serious...in fact its a reloc <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> (had to put it in here)
With over 100 res invested just to secure ONE area, you better hope securing that area will win you the game. 100 res is 10 shotguns, or weapons and upgrades up through level 2 researched, etc.
105 res can be invested elsewhere. And this ll probably help you a lot more than this outpost.
this makes me a bit sad because...it kind of cuts useful tactics/strategies down to a few successfull ones. While such an outpost is really a lot of fun...it most likely isnt worth its res who are better invested into an armory upgrade and some Hmgs.
/me is sad now.
( ^^ )
Trying to outpost (or minibase) a key choke is tough to do when the aliens find it. They will be keen to clear out your outpost, and its damned hard for rines to build when they're being rushed.
Generally minibases now end up clustered around an elec rt. You have the RT, phase gate, turret factory, and about 3 turrets.
You also need 1 rine to check it out every few seconds to make sure aliens aren't hitting it. Once the aliens start attacking it, you can't afford to lose that investment and thus you spend your time sending marines through the phase to die. If a minibase isn't working, or if the marines are stalled, then get rid of it or use it as a distraction.
Personally imho the greatest use of the minibase IS distraction. Aliens clusterhump any structure near their hive, so if you're devious you can drop a tfac PG near a hive, let them rush it, then while they're killing it you send your boys to another hive. Done fast enough you will split the alien team, which increases your odds of survival.
Speaking from experience, most minibases will attract either a pack of skulks, a lerk going mad with spore, or a hitnrun fade who will strip your minibase of defenders. Combinations of the above will rip through any sort of minor outpost with comparative ease. Minibases should be viewed as nothing more than deterrents. Turret farms can have holes in their cover, and DC allows most lower lifeforms to chip away at your set up. Marines are needed to hold them if they're strategically viable... certainly if you're on a pub you can expect to make one minibase in one hive, while pressuring the other two. In very long games, you may wish to put a base in both unoccupied hives, but tbh you're better off rushing from hive 2 direct to hive 3, to prevent aliens time to use their res to evolve to last gasp onos.
If you intend to make a minibase, make it fast and make it cheap. Remember that for each minibase you make, you're missing out on a second armslab, or less shotguns/ammo/meds for your team. Marine aggression can usually achieve a lot more than a minibase near a hive.
Dont make turrets, unless your marine suck
make sure you have A1/W1 before outposting.
Its sometimes a REALY GREAT IDEA to put a Obs in the out post. That way you can see any aliens trying to ambush around that base, making it easier for marines to push out. And thusly you also get to silent becon, cetching the mediocer fade.
infact make the obs a prioty over turrets, along with lots and lots of SGs
yes Observatorys at outposts are good. But Armorys are fine too.
the non-turret outpost has it advantages and disadvantages
+ cheaper (about 45+ res)
+ you can set it up a lot faster
+ As soon as Fades arrive the Turrets will be a waste of res
- No Automate Defense against low lifeforms
- (see above) you ll need Marines that pass by the outpost from tiem to time to prevent a lonely Skulk from taking out the PG and later the whole outpost on its own. Mines ftw?
So yes...all in all an outpost wihtout turrets would be better. But it requires a good team to make it work.
To me, turrets are just a waste of res.
Has anyone actually tried it? I'm not good enough at commanding to have had a chance yet... so if anyone has, insight would be appreciated.
Not so for smaller games, but as you've already mentioned, you already know the difference between the 2 game types.
Why do I say so?
[1] Marines fight by being most efficient in the first 5 seconds then run out of ammo. Even if you have 5 marines there. 2 skulks come. Both die. Another skulks come, both die. All 5 marines start reloading. ANOTHER 2 skulks come, all 5 marines die while reloading. In smaller games there will be less skulks coming over, so this isn't a problem.
[2] In bigger games, aliens can really SWARM, as their respawn rate is INCREASED tremendously.
[3] Undefended RTs in the rear go down very fast as there are so many skulks around, that 1-2 will go and chomp them instead of fighting.
[4] More FADES and LERKS will appear at one time, although they come later. But the mass skulks can possibly hold your marines off until these arrive.
Building outposts will slow down skulk movement, so that they cannot ambush your marines as easily. This also means you need less marines to defend that area. 2 skulks can kill 5 reloading marines, but 2 skulks cannot kill 2 reloading marines and 3 turrets.
Upgrades should always come before outposts, but I dare say heavy weapons and outposts are 50/50. Why? Because mass LMG fire is very lethal, and because of skulk swarms, you stand a great chance of losing your heavy weapons due to ambushes and reloads.
A properly built outpost with 3 turrets will help your marines tremedously against skulks.
Of course, if the 2nd hive comes up, then they become useless due to bilebomb. If a hive1 onos comes up, it can demolish outposts easily. But you should have HMGs by then to counter it.
@Chaos Xero: well..not sure if they are that effective..but its at least great to play with outposts if you are one of the marines.
Like ns_nothing generator.
1. It´s in the center of the map with quick access to cargo hive.
2. You more or less control 3 nodes. The one in gen, the one outside and if you have too you can keep a single siege to deny aliens kismet node.
3. It´s a good staging area for taking via hive.
4. Without access to generator aliens have to take really long detours to get around the map.
Some comms relocate to generator but I wouldnt recommend it.
And it´s not very Onos or fade friendly either. Chances are that you keep this outpost throughout the game with little maintenance even if you evetually lose.
If that means TF and turrets AND there's four of them I hope the aliens didn't go sensory because you are going to have zero res for upgrades beyond armor1.
Hives are good outposts because ... they can't put up that hive, you capture that RTS until you lose the outpost, a hive usually has two RTS around it, and hives usually aren't that far away from one another. Certainly they are closer than are MS and a hive.