Co_sava Feedback
Mendasp
I touch maps in inappropriate placesValencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
I touch maps in inappropriate placesValencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">let's try this again</div> I've had very bad experiences with feedback threads in the past thanks to a number of individuals in this community. So, please, don't post if you're not going to help me improve the map at all.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>IF YOU'RE GOING TO POST SOMETHING ABOUT HOW COMBAT SUCKS AND THAT I SHOULD BE MAKING CLASSIC MAPS, PLEASE GO AWAY AND DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT POSTING IN THIS THREAD.</span></span>
What I want to know:
- Better than the previous version (gameplay, mainly)?
- Is it still dark?
- Concerns about the new hive
Also, I'm aware of the vent placement on the hive. The easiest solution for that is the one used in Satellite Hive (ns_tanith).
There may be any other issues with the map, so that's why this is a feedback thread... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>IF YOU'RE GOING TO POST SOMETHING ABOUT HOW COMBAT SUCKS AND THAT I SHOULD BE MAKING CLASSIC MAPS, PLEASE GO AWAY AND DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT POSTING IN THIS THREAD.</span></span>
What I want to know:
- Better than the previous version (gameplay, mainly)?
- Is it still dark?
- Concerns about the new hive
Also, I'm aware of the vent placement on the hive. The easiest solution for that is the one used in Satellite Hive (ns_tanith).
There may be any other issues with the map, so that's why this is a feedback thread... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I liked the new hive much better than the old one, and pretty much all the other modifications you made were good. So, uh... yeah, it's good.
ive played co sava a few times and i think its pretty well done. the only thing that definately needs changing is as zunni said the vents. one make the harder for jpers to get into and easier for skulks to ambush them or such, and never ever ever make it so marines can shoot through vents.
what i usually do on sava is get a jp and shotgun the hive, its a disaster area in the hive because one its nice and open for my nice jetpack, two i can always go into one of the vents. sometimes i take the vent you can shoot the hive from shoot it a clip, go to other vent and repeat.
so, summary.
concerns bout new hive: too jpable with vents and openeness?
better than last one i think.
oh also as onos its kind hard to get into that junction area outside the left of ms, you now the place with the T with the rails? onos has to duck under it and it has caused many deaths, especially when the onos falls down into the t structure railings.
i cant really help with the brightness because i have mine jacked up to 90 on my moniter and a script + alt tabbing makes it bright.
But now I think it's a bit too cramped. I'd perfer the old sava with just a simple yet fair hive, but maybe just have fewer crates then there is now so skulks still can ambush.
Good work though, regardless.
The only problem I have now with this map is that you have a BEAUTIFUL room full of lots of interesting objects and lights to the left of marine start, yet it is on the longest route from marine start to the hive, so you hardly ever go there unless you're sneaking around the aliens, and you almost NEVER have fights there. It really is a waste, imo. I would do something to increase the travel time and/or make the "normal" route from ms to the hive (right exit out of ms, go straight, take one of the two entrances depending on weapon and alien locations) more alien friendly, just so that marines are forced to go to that room.
Okay, maybe that's a bit drastic, I just wish there were some way of making that route less of a ninja path and more of a battlefield.
My only real critisism of the map in general is that it really doesn't play well for onos... at all (This is my opinion... for sure people are going to tell me different but what ever)
This is mainly when considering attacking the marine spawn; two routes of attack. The room with the ladders stretching over the pits, and the other side.
The first way (route on the left if you look from alien end of map to marine end) is a death trap for onos - the entrances at both ends of the room are in a straight line, so onos has to run miles to get to proper safety (i don't consider dropping into the pits safety bearing in mind how dodgy onos are at the top of ladders)
The other side is better, but still not great because of the raised platform in the middle and the low cielings... I have died so many times there as an onos because I got stuck trying to navigate through that little room... if thats the intention then fine, but I just don't bother going onos on sava any more...
as to solutions to these problems... the second route is easy - just raise the cieling enough that an onos won't get hit the door frames if it jumps so that room no longer becomes a death trap. maybe lower the rails off the platform. I dunno, you're choice.
As to the first route, I'm not sure... ¬.¬
other than that, think the map plays very well (except of course for the vent system!)
hope this is of some use.
But it's much better than the first version, though marines still seem to win most of the time.
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oh also as onos its kind hard to get into that junction area outside the left of ms, you now the place with the T with the rails? onos has to duck under it and it has caused many deaths, especially when the onos falls down into the t structure railings. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take that little platform with those railings out, and make it a smooth plane.
If you reroute the vents so that they come out on the floor of the hive it wont be a problem. This would be better than putting a "Sat Comm Cover" on the ends of those vents.
The vents are really long. Whenever a vent changes direction or angles, it makes it seem longer. It would be better with longer straightaways. Try to make the vents go to their exits the most direct, fastest possible route.
I disagree with changing the room to the right of marine start. I really like it. Its almost the signature of the map.
I like the vent system generally apart from the hive entrances as they are right now...and a couple of the rooms have a very good style that other maps haven't got. With vents there are other options to sat comms based covers. They are one option, another would be (as has been stated in my thread over the way) having it so that the vent ramps upwards to the opening, meaning that the jper has to slowly fall back before he can jp away. Making camping the opening a risky prospect. The other is (as suggested here) re working the vents in the hvie area so that they just come out either in the floor, or pointing elsewhere (for instance they could point away from the hive towards the main lower door (to the coridoor with the crate in it)...camping the vent there would provide almost no use whatsoever.
The marine starts positive point comes from the armoury being so far away from the comm chair, I like that.
The room that is ... hmm...how to describe it, you get onto the walkway in the hive, go left out of the top door, and head down the ramp (from the alien hive side) and you reach a room there. That room seems a little...obscolete? I'm not sure why, perhaps it's a bit too small so just feels like a filler space before getting to the coridoor? I wish I could put my finger on it but I never really see much go on in there.
Also don't-change-the-room-to-the-right-of-marine-start++
that narrow hallway on the left of marine start is very onos unfriendly
...but you already knew that
As for the room on the right side of marine start, I'd suggest adding a massive pillar/power core/generator in the center of the room, to block one hallway from seeing all the way down. Jetpackers should still be able to handle onos in there, they just need to actually go into the room to do it
aesthetic issue: DONT USE BOXES
Personally, im tired of (almost) every single map having "hundreds" of boxes used to add cover for aliens. Aliens need cover, but please dont have half the map filled with boxes, it gets old and it gets ugly.
aesthetic issue: DONT USE BOXES
Personally, im tired of (almost) every single map having "hundreds" of boxes used to add cover for aliens. Aliens need cover, but please dont have half the map filled with boxes, it gets old and it gets ugly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. The rest of the world has moved on from boxes. They're now using barrels (see: CS:S). It is an outrage that NS mappers can't keep up with the times.
So tell me how to fill it adding cover and without breaking anything. Also, I've only added crates in the central area, how many *new* crates are in there? 3? Whoa. And the open crate... does that count as a crate or as a water tank? Although it's irrelevant, since it was in the previous version (closed) and noone said a word about it...
If you're actually going to suggest things, these are the ones that will probably never make it:
- Supports: This doesn't add cover at all unless it's a huge and ugly support.
- Central-huge-pipe-whatever-other-stuff-in-the-center: Doesn't really help with the cover issue and it would break the lighting.
- Computers: lol, computers.
- Pipes: O-ho. You better have a good idea on how to put the pipes, because it may seem easy in paint, but it's not usually that way! And they have to provide the same cover!
Crates are just a cube and it's "easy" for the engine to render. I can understand the issues with the Hive, but I seriously can't see what's so wrong with FOUR CRATES (I know there's more, but those weren't an issue before, and it seems unacceptable now, dunno, it's surprising).
Also: Barrels in CS:S are a joke.
Don't take this as a flame or a personal attack, it isn't. I'm serious, if you know a better way to fill the ground with cover without crates, tell me and I'll gladly modify the room (I'm talking about the central ones which is the only place where I added crates).
Edit: If you compare co_sava beta 5 with the current version you'll see how I tried to avoid crates in most cases (big water container, pipes, a completely new hive...), so don't think I didn't try.
mendasp you remind me to play it already... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Quoted for prosperity.
Also, I don't see how the hive room is jetpacker friendly when you take out the vent issue. The walkway allows very easily for onos/fades to have a platform to kick JP ****, and the roof is low enough that any decent skulk/lerk should be able to take them out as well.
It's actually possibly one of the best hive rooms for combatting JPers (vents aside)
D'oh! I gave it a quick read, so embarrasing. I shouldn't post on forums that early in the morning, my brain was still waking up or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways, I forgot to say that for the next version I will fix as many Onos issues as possible (at least in one route) and the vent problem. Is there anything else I'm missing? (I just re-read the thread).
I said that I loved the one room all the way to the left of the map (go left out of ms, then left at the next junction before you get to the center room), but it's almost a waste of a room because hardly anyone uses it, and there are never any major battles there.
I said that I loved the one room all the way to the left of the map (go left out of ms, then left at the next junction before you get to the center room), but it's almost a waste of a room because hardly anyone uses it, and there are never any major battles there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good point. There's really no central room in sava for large battles to take place (like the central room in faceoff or bridge in angst). It might make the map better to move that room into the center.
Well not having a central room gives sava a unique game-flow. Even on bigger servers you will fight rather small battles. Aliens have always a chance to rush MS and kill the chair in a matter of seconds, if rines do not split up.
Ever played core or faceoff on a 14vs14 server. It is not funny anymore, whereas sava plays rather smoothly cause you wont get 14 rines cramped together in one place.
Sava was my second favorite co_map after daimos in 3b5 and it is my favorite now in 3f. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only issue i am currently having with sava are the vent entrances in to hive location. Maybe adding some kind of cover, that prevents shooting the hive directly would solve this.
small hint: have a look at heras vents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
edit: spelling
Well not having a central room gives sava a unique game-flow. Even on bigger servers you will fight rather small battles. Aliens have always a chance to rush MS and kill the chair in a matter of seconds, if rines do not split up.
Ever played core or faceoff on a 14vs14 server. It is not funny anymore, whereas sava plays rather smoothly cause you wont get 14 rines cramped together in one place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, core and faceoff work very well in a 6v6, whereas maps like damios, kestrel or pulse don't work very well with so few players.
I guess it depends on server size.
The only problem I have now with this map is that you have a BEAUTIFUL room full of lots of interesting objects and lights to the left of marine start, yet it is on the longest route from marine start to the hive, so you hardly ever go there unless you're sneaking around the aliens, and you almost NEVER have fights there. It really is a waste, imo. I would do something to increase the travel time and/or make the "normal" route from ms to the hive (right exit out of ms, go straight, take one of the two entrances depending on weapon and alien locations) more alien friendly, just so that marines are forced to go to that room.
Okay, maybe that's a bit drastic, I just wish there were some way of making that route less of a ninja path and more of a battlefield. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
I once sat up on the roof ambush spot in that room for 2 minutes waiting for lunch to come past, needless to say, it didn't.
There is many things a mapper can create in place of crates.
Let's take the example that the crates are a big enough object to change the flow of gameplay, a mapper can simply change the surrounding architecture and change the layout slightly.
Taking the place of crates being a more aesthetic feature replacements such as:
- Barrels (Seen in Altair, and alot in HL2)
- Machinery (Computers, heavy lifting machines and so forth)
- Vehicles
- Wall panels & deconstructed architecture or even more interesting architecture (for example vent covers lying around, or a huge wall panel ripped from the wall and hanging on by wires or propped against the wall)
Barrels suck in HL1 mods. At least in HL2 they act like barrels, but that only then creates the situation of them being flipping annoying. In HL1 barrels look ridiculous as they just stand there unmoving as if they're full of super heavy cement.