Defensive Emplacements

Inexorable · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Numbers Ahoy!</div> I just wanted to point out a few things about defending with chambers.

Imagine a 'standard' defensive setup is 4 Offensive Chambers, and 4 Defensive Chambers (I know that in practice most of you like to put up around 16 of each every 30 feet, but bear with me here)

Now, imagine three LMG marines come around the corner and meet this doublequad setup. Using a bit of voice chat, they decide to concentrate fire on one chamber at a time therefore minimizing the healing benefits of the D chambers. They empty their clips into an O chamber, an guess what.. it dissapears.

Those three marines pumped 150 rounds, at 10 damage/round into the chamber over a period of 5 seconds for a total of 1500 damage. During that time, the D chambers would have healed a grand total of 200 damage (10 damage/second * 4 chambers * 5 seconds). An O chamber has 1200 HP, add in the 200 healed, and that's only 1400 effective HP, not enough to save the O chamber.

So why is it again that D chambers are so important for keeping O chambers alive? You'ld need 7 D chambers to protect a single O chamber from measly 3 marines. For every marine after that, you'ld need another 5 D chambers.

Inexorable · November 2002

Can <i>anybody</i> tell me why it's worth spending 2 hives worth of resources in D chambers to defend every single resource node and choke point?

Lt_Warhound · November 2002

Perfect world there, every marine fires at the exact same time, all hit with all 50 rounds, none of the marines are bothered enough by the fire from the offense chambers to dodge or upset their aim.

Doesn't happen in RL. Oh, if the gorge was an incomplete idiot, and placed the chambers where the marines could fire at them from outside the range of the off chambers, then this could happen.

Odds are, rather than 3 marines emptying a full clip, you have them moving, dodging, popping out from around a corner, firing, ducking back and forth, getting in each others line of fire. This will alter the aim, stretching out the attack giving the chambers more time to heal.

Def chambers heal the off chambers, forcing the marines to kill rather than whittle away at the chamber. Equally important, the def chambers will heal any alien player that needs to fall back for healing, saving the time that would be lost to a run back to a hive, or to a gorge.

Inexorable · November 2002

You're right, it does take "perfect" marines to pull this off. Thing is, it only takes 3 of them, and they're completely unupgraded. If I give some normal marine a shotgun, or just send more marines at it I get the same effect. For virtually no cost on the marine side, I can take out this setup in a minute or so. Whereas the aliens spent more than a hive worth of resources defending the resource node/choke-point/whatever.

Or, I can set up siege. For about 65 RP, I can have siege guns going. My marines sit safely around the corner or down the hall, defend the TF for a few seconds, and then move in when everything's dead. If you decided to go for a full "Wall of Lame" you just wasted hundreds of RP to my 80 or so. Best part is, I can then recycle my impromptu siege base and use those RP to set up another one at the next wall.

So again, why should I spend hundreds of RP setting up huge O/D chamber walls if the marines can take them out so easily?

LiquidFusion · November 2002

well it definately delays the death of them so that is the point. If you can delay the chamber from dieing long enough for a few skulks to get there then you don't have a problem.

from your logic then why do you guys spawn? I mean a skulk is just going to kill you so why even spawn?

Injury · November 2002

You have a point, however the Khaara can lay siege themselves if you've kept this in mind. Khaaran tactics run to the extreme with their ability to build chambers (turrets) wherever they please; limited only by space. In most games, Marines will usually forget to build a siege or two in their main base and a Khaaran defensive chamber base will completely immobilize the Marine command, if not wipe it out completely. Defensive Chambers aren't just solely for defense if you can be creative. In my personal experience you'll usually have an alien or two healing at said a chamber area when the marines run into them and that usually sets off an alert, either on voicecom or teamchat and you'll have aliens vectoring into that location to eliminate the Marines. Thus, chambers have great versatility despite being bullet bait. Its detrimental that you remember that a defensive offense always has a high chance of being smashed by just one well placed siege cannon so its a gamble either way. But that's why we play the game, I suppose.

A side note, I don't like "Walls of Lame", but they have their own tactical usages, even so those walls provide a disadvantage to alien players who choose to put them up because of the constant siege barrage that will ensue. What with the new server patch these such walls will have another weakness and can be eliminated with a little less effort.

guagle · November 2002

I don't really understand you Inexorable. Are you saying that OCs and DCs are worthless? And what is this about siege cannons taking a few seconds to blow up wall of lame or hive? And the marines with you are just resting while all this siege-induced destruction takes place? I mean are we playing the same game? Who are you playing against?

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

bitnine · November 2002

Yeah, defesnsive chambers backing things up are a pretty tried and true method to get encampments to last longer. Not only do they heal structures, but if players end up fighting in that area (even if its just to defend those structures), their odds of survival are greatly increased.

You also want to set up those offense chambers so that if a marine stop there and fired a full clip from his lmg, he would most certainly die. The fact is that you could set up a Wall of Lame so well v1.01 that it damn near required a Siege Cannon or three to take down.

One example that comes to mind is when about four hmg marines were attacking the sewer hive on caged. I was a lowly gorge having built considerable defenses there. Between my webs, the massive amount of turrets, and the healing that I poured into them with adreneline I help 'em off for a couple of minutes. I'll always remember it because just as they were breaking through and I was going to die a pair or fades arrived in answer to my frantic calls and killed them all.

It's very important to hold choke points. Without them, you won't have the real estate on which to build a hive. While spending large amounts of resources early on is a mistake, once you get that second hive you should probably have one fellow saving up for a third hive while another makes sure those defenses are tight. Sure it'd be nice if skulks could keep marines bottled up in their spawn every game, but I'm not going to bank on that.

Inexorable · November 2002

I don't want to say D chambers are completely useless, but consider: If it takes 10 seconds to kill an O chamber (my group of 3 marines was killing it in 5), it would take 12 D chambers in order to heal 1200 HP in that time. <b>OR</b> I could forgo D chambers, and build a singe O chamber which gives an extra 1200 HP automatically for a savings of 132 RP.

Even at 30 seconds to kill an O chamber, you need 4 D chambers to equal the HP of 1 O chamber. In order for a D chamber to equal the HP efficiency of a single O chamber, it would require a marine team to take <u>2 minutes</u> to kill each O chamber.

If the marines attack such a defensive wall fail to kill anything and then go away, then fine, a D chamber has some use. But I see no reason to insist that D chambers are a necessary part of defensive emplacements.

-edit: I sucks when people respond while you're typing your own responce. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

D chambers are not useless, it is simply much more efficient to build extra O chambers instead.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>One example that comes to mind is when about four hmg marines were attacking the sewer hive on caged. I was a lowly gorge having built considerable defenses there. Between my webs, the massive amount of turrets, and the healing that I poured into them with adreneline I help 'em off for a couple of minutes. I'll always remember it because just as they were breaking through and I was going to die a pair or fades arrived in answer to my frantic calls and killed them all.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And think, if it hadn't been for the Webs, Healing Spray, and eventual Fades would your huge O/D field have stood a chance?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The fact is that you could set up a Wall of Lame so well v1.01 that it damn near required a Siege Cannon or three to take down.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And by doing so, you only really waste resources. The marines spend 100 RP or so on their siege base, you spend 250+ RP on your wall. They recycle aftewards, while you just lost the whole thing.(This is assuming that the siege cannons are actually working. It's truly amazing how quickly siege can tear through structures when they're not doing 4 damage a hit.)

Injury · November 2002

Its your playing strategy Inexorable, and I'm not going to tell you how to play your game. I feel adversely however, since my previous post mentioned the presence of aliens within the vicinity of defensive chambers. In most games the aliens can and will rush to defend defensive chambers, especially those close to their Hives. When you have a ranged alien, such as a Lerk or Fade they can assist the offensive chambers while regenerating their own hitpoints, giving a deft advantage (possibly because offensive chambers have a horrible arc and shot prediction).

When chambers are attacked, there's at least one alien that will check out the disturbance or is already at the site and can give a report on what the chambers are facing. Despite being chaotic in their form of teamwork/network, I find most alien players to be fiercely territorial (probably because the red glowing circles distract them) when it comes to chambers that are under attack but aren't being sieged. The Marines usually make a big mistake hitting a fortified chamber area without a Heavy Machine Gun to deal with them. The aliens almost always take chamber attack Marines by surprise and that gives them the advantage because the Marines are trying to take down the chamber, dodge aliens and return fire.

I understand that you would like to save resources for another Hive, but what's a Hive without defenses? If you have chambers, especially those close to their Hives they can turn the tide of battle. When you have a ranged alien, such as a Lerk or Fade they can assist the offensive chambers while an slow the Marines down the hall for five minutes or so while they pound on chambers, reinforcements can most likely get to the Hive and force the Marines into a disorganized retreat. When Marines assault a defended position, chances are one or more of them will be wounded, as will be the aliens. Since aliens can use defensive chambers to regenerate their hp - albeit a lot slower than health kits that the commander can drop - they don't cost RP at all and it keeps the commander distracted, opting for another alien force to hit a Marine emplacement while the troops ask for health and ammo.

WarpZone · November 2002

The point of building Defense Chambers behind Offense chambers or Respource Towers is <b>not</b> to heal nearby structures so fast that they're damn near invincible, not even against a LMG. The point of Defense Chambers is that when marines start attacking your emplacements, and some Emergency Response Skulks run up and bite the marines from behind, the DCs are there to undo the damage they just did with their LMGs.

If it weren't for <i>one or two DCs</i> near every strategic structure, the marines could just send some guys to the location, do some damage till they die, respawn, run back there again, chisel some more life points away from the OCs, lather, rinse, repeat. You'd need a gorge to run around healing everything manually, to prevent this, and we all know how fast a gorge can run.

Of course, nobody has the resources near the begining to put up DCs next to every OC, but if you're the guy playing your team's gorge, it would be a good idea to start using them sparingly once you get a couple Resource Towers up. If nothing else, a level 3 carapace can help a gorge stay alive a heck of a lot longer.

This is, of course, just my playing style. (After you get the second hive up, make Movement chambers because adreneline improves Fades and Lerks a lot and you can put one MC in each Hive Location you already have simply by building and using your first one, and then jump between the two hives to shore up defenses.) If your own playing style calls for never building DCs, hey, go for it. You can probably win with *any* given build order, so long as your team out-teamworks the other team. If you're not the guy playing gorge, you should find out who the gorge is, what he's doing, and why, and adjust your gameplay and tactics to fit his build order.

And nothing sucks more than everybody going gorge at once to try and affect the order in which structures are built. It screws with the original gorge's strategy, and also divides the team's resources until *nobody* can build *anything.*

You probably know all this already... I just got carried away rambling about gorgery. Sorry.

Do you have any stories about how the absence of Defensive Chambers saved the day? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Morose · November 2002

Aye... the ability to build one or two def chambers near a choke point and then let it take care of itself is great. I've always considered the "walls of lame" to be a losing proposition... but a couple OCs with a DC to take care of them while they're not currently being attacked is never a bad idea in a good location. But seriously... it's the last word of that sentence that is key... location. Location, location, location. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

Inexorable · November 2002

Telling people how to play the game is what this forum is about Injury. Hordes of people are convinced that D chambers are the salvation of the Kharaa.

I just want to bring up the point that the main push behind this (that OC + DC = win) is incorrect. If your OC wall comes under actual marine attack, no number of DCs will save it. In fact, it would be more beneficial to forego DCs entirely for some other upgrade chamber. (I'ld put in a little bit about Carapace here, but BoddoZerg is doing a great job of that <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=11777&st=60' target='_blank'>here</a>)

Defence Chambers are great when used to support hit and run tactics. Fades benefit immensely from Carapace. And who doesn't love Onos + Redemption? So don't get me wrong, D chambers have their place.

[I really hate quotes, but there's so much specific stuff I want to respond to]
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I understand that you would like to save resources for another Hive, but what's a Hive without defenses? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If you need D chambers in your hive defenses because nobody ever goes there, you've got bigger problems. In no way do I want to say don't build O chambers for defence, in fact I'm saying build them instead of D chambers. How is having movement chambers around the map so you can get back to the hive almost instantly worse than having D chambers at the hive? Or having sensory chambers everywhere so the marines can't even get close to the hive without getting mobbed?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>When chambers are attacked, there's at least one alien that will check out the disturbance or is already at the site and can give a report on what the chambers are facing. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You could have a Sensory Chamber there and have a numbers report instantly.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>When chambers are attacked, there's at least one alien that will check out the disturbance</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
And if they've got Celerity, they'll be there almost instantly.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If it weren't for one or two DCs near every strategic structure, the marines could just send some guys to the location, do some damage till they die, </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If you have a Sensory Chamber up, just have some cloaked skulks wait for them next time. You know where there going and what route to take, how much more do you need? You'ld kill them before they got a shot off.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You'd need a gorge to run around healing everything manually, to prevent this, and we all know how fast a gorge can run.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
He runs pretty fast with Celerity.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You can probably win with *any* given build order, so long as your team out-teamworks the other team</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That's pretty much the crux of it all. If your team can't work together and adapt to what they have available, your chances of winning are pretty low to begin with. The type and number of chambers you've got isn't going to change that.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you have any stories about how the absence of Defensive Chambers saved the day? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You show me a server where D chambers aren't build first, and I'll show you a server with a dozen "Alien player has left the game" messages.

bitnine · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Inexorable @ Nov 19 2002, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And think, if it hadn't been for the Webs, Healing Spray, and eventual Fades would your huge O/D field have stood a chance?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
If by "stood a chance" you mean that I think that mixed chambers would somehow kill a group of HA marines? Not bloody likely. You could have a room full of 10 by 10 offense chambers and I doubt they'd kill a squad of HA marines. The webs were nice for the first two marines, but hardly a stopping point.

The fact is that there were 8 offense chambers backed by 6 defense chambers with a few sensory chambers in front to soak up hits. Did it cost a lot of resources? Absolutely. However, what exactly is this other use for resources that the aliens have that make setting up large encampments a "waste"? Generally the tougher aliens tend not to die, and by the time they do, they've got enough to go back. Someone else was building a third hive. I tried using my resources to purchase a european vacation, but they apparently they couldn't be used for that sort of thing.

When I set up choke points, I think anything less than the most buildup is a waste. By picking and choosing the most effective places to put them you can do this. Each offense chamber increases the odds of the mess surviving an attack, as does each defense chamber. Peek-and-fire attacks from the HMG are by far the most common attack, and believe it or not, many marines tend to spray or at least hit not just one offense chamber, and I don't think they hit with every bullet.

My point was without the defensive chambers, they would have broken through and tore into the hive. Hell, without the defensive chambers, the few shots that hit me from around the chambers I was healing would have killed me. I won't say that I advocate the building of offense chambers instead of defense, I think late-game encampments should definately have the max of both.

As for lighter encampments earlier, I'd definately still want defensive chambers as marines without HA tend to die if they don't peek-and-fire, and the healing capabilities provided can help it to outlast the marine's life, clip, or time he has until someone responds. Moreover, defensive chambers prevent a single marine from respawning and returning to a single location and wearing it down. And in addition to this, if they are near the hive they help to boost anyone with redemption back up to full quickly, and if they are in the front they make a good retreat point for fades to be healed.

Sure, they encourage siege cannons. But if you have only one or two gorges, the rest of your team should be making them worry about their spawn, their resource nodes, and their lives a little too much to simple toss sieges anywhere. And even if they aggressively attempt to siege you, the healing chambers help to weather the splash damage to have as much intact as possible when you take the siege out.

The larger and more robust you can make your defenses, the longer they can last against marine attacks. I'm also not saying that you need to max defence chambers at every point of the map, just placed strategically at A) hive defenses and B) frontline installations. I'm sure you can win without a single chamber if you've got good enough players and organization, but I'm not really seeing a dearth of resources on the alien side that necessitates that sort of play. I suppose you could put up offensive chambers EVERYWHERE, but that seems a little unneeded as you can confine the battles to a few choke points and generally knock the marines back to their base.

[Edit]And yeah, I don't think that six more offense chambers in the above example would have really made all too much of a difference, even if there weren't a limit. At least not the difference that the healing made.[/Edit]

Injury · November 2002

By my perception Inexorable, its not as much as telling people how to play the game as showing your opinion and waiting to see if it has an effect on the community, generally or specifically. But I would like to respond to these few topics we've whittled down to. I won't bother with quotes since we both know which parts we're discussing and enough with preamble.

The Offense/Defense Chamber push does <b>not</b> guarantee a win. Its success of failure is dependant on a multiplicity of factors, most of which is on the Marine team whose ability to deal with such offensives cannot be accurate measured. I won't go into Carapace, there is another thread - as Inexorable mentioned - that is currently discussing it.

Your standards for the average player are a bit high, though commendable, however when you have say two defensive chambers inside the Hive itself, your regeneration rate can allow you to get back into the action much faster than if you sat around the Hive waiting for the regen, which is faster than a single chamber. Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to pack a Hive full of defenses (though that's what most games entail), I meant in my previous post that if there was a static defense line perhaps a bit in front of the Hive, say three rooms away that could be choked (nothing fancy, just a few chambers). Of course, the Hive itself should be well defended enough that the Marines would have a hard time to gain access. That would delay the Marines enough for reinforcements. Timing is always critical in my opinion.

Sensory Chambers will most definitely say "The enemy is approaching,' not an exact quote mind you, but when you think about it some players may tune out game sounds such as that and pay more attention to team chat or voicecom. I agree that Sensory Chambers will give you enough warning, but you will always need the human factor to add to the gameplay. Now if a teammate is crying bloody murder at a certain location, he'd most definitely receive some sort of backup, whilst if "the enemy is approaching" could be a generalization and people might not do a 360 in their vent to see where that is.

Moving on, I agree that Celerity is a very useful trait, however when running to mid-game you'll almost never see anyone with Celerity until late-game (this being the third Hive for Xenocide). Either way, the chambers will get their backup. Celerity is a most useful trait, especially at the third level, and I believe it is not used to its fullest potential as of yet. The immense speed bonus that Celerity offers gives you the immense advantage to close and attack with your melee weapon. There is a thread somewhere about melee combat, I don't remember where exactly though, but Celerity should not be overlooked.

In conclusion, I suppose mostly public opinion is for massive Defensive Chambers. But you bring up a very interesting point, not without merit.

Inexorable · November 2002

Ok, a few things:

This really doesn't apply to late game (especially 3rd hive scenarios for obvious reasons). On pub servers, there really is no reason not to have D chambers at least second, and then put a few in hives and on the front lines. I think the Move/Sensor combo can work extremely well, but requires a co-ordinated alien team. I think that the aliens can adapt their tactics, but even with a commander pub players are never organized. So really the argument is single hive/low marine tech scenarios. (ie. what should the first upgrade chamber be)

The arguments about people not using the chambers to the best of their ability is misleading. It only requires a minimum of teamwork to say "Hit chamber X". It requires absolutely no teamwork to look around for yellow hive-sight dots, or figure out how to use Celerity effectively. When the game came out, virtually nobody knew how to play the Kharaa. They can learn to adapt what they have learned so that the alien teams can have more early game flexibility.

Public opinion says D chambers rule, but that's because the public are sheep. As I've pointed out D chambers don't do everything they're said to do, and what they do can be simulated or compensated for by other chambers. My outposts won't take as much damage if I can cross the map to defend them in seconds. The marines can't go anywhere if I have sensory coverage of the entire map. They can't shoot what they can't see. The list goes on.

Actually, I've got a story to share. Earlier today I was playing on Nancy as a marine. After the initial rush (which we repelled with only me as a casualty), I wandered out to see if there were any aliens left. Sure enough I catch a glimpse of claws above the doorway and get back to the safety of the turrets. I tell my team that there are aliens waiting outside the door for us, so we head out prepared. After a bit of base building, a squad heads out.

4 on 4, and we have turrets covering us. 1 marine survives the encounter. If the aliens had even partial cloak at that point, I wouldn't have seen them and they would have caught us completely unawares.

Teufel_Eldritch · November 2002

I like to place 2-3 DC's for every 4-6 OC's. I will also place a SC sometimes with my Wall of Lame and a MC nearby just in case a enemy breaks thru I can run around the corner and *poof!* Im gone. Bear in mind I dont place SC's and MC's with every Wall of Lame, just the most important ones.

Injury · November 2002

So in that encounter you showed good perception, this is not true in many cases as public games seem to prove many theories wrong. Despite that Skulks can jump down from the tip of the doorway, not enough Marines are wary of this fact (so I'll watch out for you in game). I have played in several publics where the sensory chambers have gone first. The - how shall I say this - more experienced players used the cloaking to their advantage, but the newer players simply got tore up. Speaking for myself, I prefer the ability to deal out maximum damage before succumbing to bullets so I lean towards the Defensive Chambers as the first Hive chamber. However, I prefer Sensory Chambers as my second choice, being mid-game is when the Marines usually get their Heavy Machine Guns out to their better players (at least, I think they are) but without armor, making ambush the prime tactic in my case. Our playing styles seem very different, but every style has its own advantages.

I am curious though, as to how long after the usually predictable rush was your foray around the perimeter, was it enough time for the enemy team you were facing to get at least a chamber up?

Inexorable · November 2002

You actually played in a server that had Sensory first? I got that once; within minutes most of my team had left and the marines ran us over.

As for the story: They had decided that instead of a second rush, they would wait for us to come out. Even concentrating on upgrades a Gorge could only have gotten 2 up.

However it still shows a point. Even with advance warning, the Skulks were still able to decimate us. You face many similar situations (walking through doors/past overhangs) throughout the game.

As for the preference to deal maximum damage, I find Celerity is much better for that. Even with lvl3 Carapace, you only get about 50% more effective HP (See BoddoZerg's posts). More than once I've been cut down by a pair of marines before even getting close despite my Carapace. With Celerity at least, if I do manage to close to melee I'm almost impossible to hit.

Ya, our playstyles are different. I just wish more people realized that chambers were about playstyle, not actual game performance.

Injury · November 2002

This is true, a Celerity/Carapace combination is also quite deadly, depending on the order of chambers your team decides upon. since the bias of the moment is Defense-Movement-Sensory, you could do the aforementioned traits quite easily, and it works with deadly effectiveness against unprepared Marines. Carapace is good if you're a brutish type and Celerity is very fun for narrowing the gap and running away after a Hit-and-run. I personally don't mind dying, but if you have a beggar's luck (like myself), you'll always run into a squad of 3+ marines and Carapace is my sort of thing, even if you attack from behind one of them is bound to turn around, unless of course they all lack situational awareness.

There's a thread about melee combat started by SoulSkorpion if you're interested in the ideas involved in closing in on Marines.

Inexorable · November 2002

Of course, a liberal dose of Silence keeps marines from turning around too. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

tanathos · November 2002

I don't care when defenses chambers aren't build 1st... but what I DO care is when the gorges that build sensory/movement just place 3 in the 1st hive and VOILA! WTF? AT LEAST place them at proper location!

Iden · November 2002

Why yes inexorable.

If the aliens built all those turrets and LEFT the game, the turrets wouldn't stand a chance. Not a prayer. The game would be 'lost' instantly.

Congradulations for figuring this out, but no cookie for you.

Time and time and time and time and time and time and time again the developers, playtesters, strategists, commanders, and gorges have ALL said that turrets are not there to take the place of players. It's simply lunatic to think about it. Of course it'd fall, wether it was a wall of 5 OC and 5 DC or a wall of 10 DC or a wall of 10 OC. You've pointed out something that everyone's realized since day two, and we're well past that.

Neither human nor alien turrets can survive on their own against a squad of the lowly grunts of the other team. 10 chambers from the aliens or 10 chambers from the humans, it WILL fall to the respective 5 LMGs or 5 skulks.

However it's a proven tried and true fact that DCs extend the life of engagements, resource nodes, hives, choke points, and anything it touches. A simple 'wall of lame' of 7 OC and 5 DC kept us marines at bay for a while, yet it would of been peacemeal to take if that *@#$ing fade hadn't kept coming back. Yet the fade would of been piecemeal if it hadn't been for that retreat it could hide behind and that could recover while the fade took the fire off of it. Neither works EXTREMELY well without the other, and in conjunction their chance of survival is increased to amazing limits.

I'll often defend the hell out of a node if I know from previous engagements that it's a 'hot spot'. Like the south loop of Eclipse I'll often drop a nifty 4 offensive and 2 defensive. Definately not enough to sustain life forever. Any chamber in the game is worthless by itself or grouped with others. A stack of 10 of each chamber or nothing will not stop a team of marines. I've seen them decimate worse with or without sieges, and that was because people tried to let the 'wall of lame' live <b>by itself. </b>

It just doesn't work.

Alarik · November 2002

another thing youve got to remember is the insane boost the DCs give to aliens anywhere near the area of the wall. i cant tell you how many games ive played where defense chambers + fades = win...the offense chambers, when i play gorge, are many times there only to protect the defense chambers! defense chambers=heals for your units=invaluable

Lt_Warhound · November 2002

Congrats, you've spent the points to place a TF (25?), a few sentries (19 per?), upgrade that TF(don't know the cost), and buy a 65 point siege turret.

25+19+19+65+? = 128+TF upgrade. Not cheap. And you have to do that for _every choke point.

And get nothing for the expense. One siege won't take out the average choke point, the damage it does get outhealed. Two siege turrets are often outhealed. Three or four get the job done, mostly. Okay, so you can recycle them when done, at what cost savings? Never done it, don't know what percentage you get back, but that assumes they survive to be recycled. 400 rp spent, how many back?

We cleared out the mess hall last night, and found 6 siege turrets, and they still hadn't taken out the forward mini-base above the twin ladders, let alone the mother interface defenses. But, I will admit I stacked the def chambers to each side of the off chambers, to maximize the healing, in anticipation of the siege turrets. Build a cluster of off where they fire into the choke point, then place two cluster of def chambers on either side, close enough to heal the off without interfering with each other. This also ensures that _some of the def chambers will be available for healing players, even if siege has started pounding on the others.

Now, your choke point with extra off chambers but no def chambers, it takes what, one siege to take it out? Or why bother, just unload a GL around the corner, since the off chambers can't shoot around corners, and won't get healed.

By your reasoning, we shouldn't build any _off chambers, since they can't even fend off marines with LMGs.

*

You consistantly ignore the point of healing players with the def chambers. 2 to 4 def chambers in an area backing up the off chambers gives the aliens a _quick sanctuary, to heal at safely. That's more important that the healing they provide the off chambers.

This is easily the single most important reason to have def chambers.

*

And, as for the thought we should put down more off chambers instead of def chambers, erh, where? Choke points are called that for a reason. There is a limit to the number of off chambers can be effectively placed, where they can fire on the marines without the marines being out of range - thereby getting freebie kills on the off chambers. But, you can keep placing def chambers to either side, out of line of sight of the choke point.

And from the sound of it, your 3 marines had to be standing out of range of the off chambers, to get those kilis without being killed first. 4 off chambers at reasonable range will kill a marine before he empties that clip, at 50 damage a shot, lets assume the first salvo misses, second salvo a second later, 200 damage vs 100 health/50 armor. After all, to get all 50 rounds on target, you aren't dodging the fire from the off chambers.

*

You are claiming _3 marines slaughter an off chamber without giving it a chance. Okay, I can buy that. However, the majority of the games played, its not groups of marines (with perfect aim) that your choke point defenses are designed to stop. its the one or two marines, wandering around. They can easily kill a gorge, or weaken a hive. Two off chambers, backed by two def chambers, that one or two marines aren't going to survive breaking through, before someone comes up behind them.

*

And while your three marines are trying to take out a choke point, wearing down the off chambers while the def chambers heal them, it takes all their attention. Can you say easy skulk kills?

Common problem, you look at the numbers in paper, run a few _lab tests on a lan, and declare that 1+2=4. Doesn't work that way in the real world. Or even the unreal NS world.

Inexorable · November 2002

[This all assumes that the siege bug is fixed and they're doing full damage, and there are no recycle bugs, etc.. etc]

Who said I placed sentries? I've got a group of perfectly capable marines on guard duty and I'm going to recycle everything in a minute. What do I need stationary guns for? The TF is 25, the upgrade is 25 (35?), each siege cannon is 15. 50-60 for the TF, and 15/gun. I can't remember the RoF on the siege cannon, but I think it's one shot every 4-5 seconds, which means you'ld need 7 or 8 D chambers to heal the damage done by one cannon. I've spent around 105 for a Factory and 3 SCs. To counter it you'ld need ~300 RP in D chambers alone. Even assuming I don't recycle I'm making a huge profit on this.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>By your reasoning, we shouldn't build any _off chambers, since they can't even fend off marines with LMGs. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No, no, no and again no. My reasoning is that D chambers are not critical to base defence because they won't help you defend any better than O chambers will alone. If you had read one of my earlier examples you would have seen me saying that 3 OCs > 2 OCs/1DC.

I don't ignore healing players. But as I said earlier that's a 2 hive argument, as your first hive evolutions can't take advantage of that healing. Lerks and Skulks die to quickly to make hit-and-run tactics effective. By the time you've got 2 hives, you have access to two upgrade chambers. If you're in a position that requires you to be able to heal units great, build D chambers. But you only need them if you're sieging the marines or under siege yourself. If the game is still a battle for territory I see no reason not to go move/sensor and wait till 3rd hive for defence.

If you're going to argue that OC would kill the marines first, then there's still little reason to require D chambers there as the marines die before doing worthwhile damage. Post a Gorge there to heal between attacks while he saves up for a second hive.

If you want to say that the three marines would never have aim that good, fine. I'll counter by saying 5 marines would have good enough aim to do the same thing even taking casualties into account.

I don't want to negate all the usefullness of the DC. What I want to point out is that it's not necessary to have walls of OC/DC everywhere. DC don't prolong the lifespan of these things enough that it really matters. If a marine comes by and pops a few pistol shots off at the wall then walks away, what do you need the DCs for? He wasn't going to kill the wall anyway. If a marine team <i>does</i> come gunning for your wall, you'ld need many hundreds of RP in DCs to keep them out anyway. All in all, you'ld be better server keeping DCs around for hive defence and siege situations and saving the money you didn't spend putting up 8 DCs at ever choke on more hives/hive defense.

qtiger · November 2002

I think inexorable is missing the point in that O and D chambers are exactly like marine turrets. They are meant to discourage and slow an attack, not eliminate it. Your marines rattle off a few rounds, whine for tf. Now they build tf, tf is upgraded, and sieges are built. How much time has been lost by how many marines? A couple minutes. NOW you have to wait for the seiges to do their work. More time.

If there are only a handful of marines there, they will be easy pickings for aliens responding to the attack. AND they have plenty of healing ability thanks to the defensive nodes. This means it takes the marines more time because they have to stop, respond to an attack, replenish health, reload, get more marines to replace losses, etc, etc, etc. If there are more marines, you're talking about 5-6 guys standing around doing nothing while the offense has been built. 5-6 guys that could have been doing something else elsewhere. And in the end, you recycle everything.

What have the marines gained? An intersection somewhere on the map, which may or may not have a hive or node, and destruction of resources.

What have the aliens gained? Enough time to gain back the amount of resources that were lost, enough time for an assault someplace where A) The marines are undermanned and B) The commander isn't paying attention, and C) Temporary expenditure of resources.

In your fantasy world, only the assault at an alien position matters. In a real game, multiple assaults and counterattacks are all taking place.

Personally, I'd rather have 3 DC at a particular point than 3 OC. Unless you are talking about very early game, offensive chambers are only a hinderance. 3 DCs can let 1-2 fades hold off double to triple their number of marines.

Inexorable · November 2002

Firstly, it's impossible to heal near a DC that is currently being sieged. You will get destroyed very quickly.

Secondly, my argument <i>is</i> early game. Late game there is no reason not to have lots of upgrade chambers everywhere. It's early game where you can't afford 15OC/15DC that I'm talking about. If I can only put a few chambers down, pure OC is almost always better than a mix.

The siege argument comes up just to show how horribly resource inefficient "Walls of Lame" are. For about 1/3 the cost I can rip that down very quickly.

Paladyne-TPF · November 2002

All the above counterpoints are very valid. Allow me to expand on a couple of them:

It's all about <i>time.</i> Time is the crucial factor here, and one that I suspect you're almost entirely overlooking. The way DCs buy you time are as follows:
<ul>
<li>They extend the <i>real</i> (not lab-test) time of a wall of OCs by roughly 2 to 3 times. I usually tend to put 3 OCs and 2 DCs in minor chokepoints and low-traffic resource points, with more at high-traffic or hive areas. In my experience, OCs alone last approximately 1/3 the time they would with DCs backing them up, and are neigh invincible against single rambo-ing marines. This is due to the need for multiple sustained attacks; OCs alone can be brought down through attrition, while those backed up by DCs cannot. The healing gorge argument is folly, since that gorge should be building elsewhere, <b>not</b> babysitting the structures he's already built. That's what DCs are for, after all!
<li>This means that only a <i>coordinated</i> offense on the part of the marines can bring a wall down, which in itself is uncommon. Add in that the larger (read: higher-traffic, higher-importance) walls take gun upgrades, and you've got a recipe for a serious diversion.
<li>They extend the life of your units; skulks may not benefit from this much, but lerks, gorges, and fades certainly do! A fade that's backed up by several DCs becomes a <i>serious</i> threat, because unless the marine team is coordinated and is pressing attacks (usually to their own deaths), all hit-and-run damage on that fade will be quickly erased. Only <i>sustained</i> attacks will kill an alien unit in this instance, which is often hard to achieve. Again, attrition is not possible if the aliens have DCs to heal.
<li>Resources are not really an issue. Sure, in terms of pure numbers, it looks silly; my 3OC/2DC mini-outpost costs 70 resources, almost as much as a hive. But remember that there are only 2 hive locations available to build in at most, and those may be inaccessible through marine expansion. And even if you do get that hive up rather than put up defenses, there's very little to stop the marines from taking it back down again if there are no chambers built to slow them down, which is a waste of resources. Ditto resource towers. OCs by themselves are little more than speed bumps. OCs backed up by DCs are a much more serious deterrent, often buying time for the alien players to come to the rescue, if they don't take care of the job themselves. With a large enough wall, it will take the entire marine team's focused attack to bring the wall down, buying the rest of your team time to do whatever they need to do.
<li>With this time, your team is building up resources (thus negating the simple numbers argument), and has time to get up a hive, put up more resource towers, fortify other areas of the map that need it, take down a marine expansion, or send an assault force into their base. If the wall is sizable enough to need the entire marine team to destroy, then they can't be elsewhere. This means that the aliens <i>can</i> take down those turret forests unopposed, or destroy marine resource towers and replace them with alien ones. Sure, you can up the numbers of marines you're throwing against that wall, but remember that you don't have unlimited numbers, and those marines busy with the wall cannot be doing anything else. If a wall is occupying their attention, then you have an extremely good opportunity to do some crippling damage elsewhere. So what if it costs a hive's worth of resources and won't last forever? That's not the point; buying <i>time</i> is.</ul>

Inexorable · November 2002

Once marines figure out that a single DC doesn't make OCs invincible, lab test will equal gameplay. OCs go down quickly against LMGs DC or no. Your real hope here is to kill the marine before he does any real damage.

The fact co-ordinated attack are uncommon isn't something you can count on. Players learned how to win as Kharaa, they'll learn how to play as Marines.

A Fade backed up by DCs is a bit outside the argument. Originally this was to counter the argument that DCs were necessary for any OC placement (a prime point of those who want DC first in upgrade order). Once you have 2 hives up, there's not a whole lot of reasons not to get a DC. While powerful in it's own right, very few pub players are capable of taking advantage of the Movement/Sensory combo.

My whole point is that OCs backed by DCs are not a serious deterrent unless you spend several hundred RPs in DCs. Every LMG is worth 5 DCs. HMGs are twice that, GLs twice again. It's no more of a roadblock no matter what stage of the game it is. No matter how big your wall is, the best you can hope is that they'll spend all the money to build a TF instead of dropping an Armory and boring through it with MGs.

The fact you bring in resources during that time is almost irrelevant. Now you have just as many resources as before, but you're minus a wall.

Once marines figure out that DCs don't help an OC wall survive, you'll see more commanders ordering assaults on them. Maybe something as simple as a Phase Gate to get reinforcements there quicker, or maybe a full out siege. Point is, the effects of the DC on early game defenses are purely psychological. 10 HP/sec/chamber won't fend off an anorexic Ethiopian, nevermind a LMG toting marine.

Lt_Warhound · November 2002

The point is that Def chamber _do, in game play, stop marines. Your numbers are nice, pretty and without much point, since the things you claim don't happen in game play.

OCs without DCs die fast, and without appreciable effect. This has been observed repeatedly, in gameplay, in many many (too many) hours of gameplay. Admittedly, only since 10/31 for me, but I've put in almost as much time each week playing as I do at work.

On the other hand, again speaking from direct observation, OCs _with DCs _do last longer, significantly longer, and provide serious benefit for the team. Maybe your skulk suicides in everytime, or never gets hit when killing marines, but my experience is that is _very common for me to take damage when attacking marines and/or their structures, and its much better for the team if I can run over to a choke point, heal and run back for more mayhem, rather than just dying or running all the way back to a hive. So, I don't buy your claim that there is no benefit for skulks, lerks or gorges, and that DCs only help fades and onos.

Doesn't the fact that you are unsupported in your claims make you wonder, a bit? I will note a significant absense of playtesters popping up to support your claims.

Keep in mind the vast majority of players and games played are on _pubs. There is a significant difference between game play on pubs and clan matches, and quite possibly in clan play it may prove out to be that we are better off with more OC and fewer or no DC. On the pubs? No.

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