Hi, I'm Panzerfaust. You might remember me from such things as the FR31NS server or the Panzy soundpak that was never released to NSArmslab.
Let me get this out of the way first off. I like wombat. It's refreshingly uncomplicated, I think, so I tend to enjoy it more lately.
This doesn't make me happy.
I came to NS in the day of 1.04, missing the actual patch day by less than a week, I believe, and it made me keep my reinstall of Half-Life. I played TFC for years uncounted, but it got boring (not to brag, but people would leave my favorite server when they saw me come in. This never happens in NS. I draw crowds.). Someone suggested NS, so, here I am.
I've seen a lot, and I've formulated my opinions about what changes were bad, what changes were stupid, and what changes didn't affect anything. Some changes were good, I grant you that, but they were horribly outnumbered, like a webbed marine down to his last pistol clip facing down an Onos with an appetite serving as the team (cat)bus for a dozen skulks.
It's been inexpertly stated by Kendrick in his last few posts. Wombat, taken out of the context of NS, as a game, is fine, more or less. Sure, aliens can be much more powerful in Wombat than they ever could in NS (Regen/Cara/Adren/Celerity/Focus/Cloak Fade, anyone?), which gives marines (should I get Armor 3, or a better weapon?) a serious problem, but it's CO. No-one cares. Your brain can happily shut down for a period of however long your server has CO rounds set to, and no-one complains because that is its purpose.
I don't complain because I just web up the whole marine team while laughing at them over alltalk (ask Nadsy, she says playing on my team is more entertaining than playing the actual game).
Look at it in context, however. At least, look at it in context of my experiences on FR31NS (I've played on three servers, and if you take out FR31NS, you're left with about 3 minutes play time elsewhere).
As things stand now, I feel that the entire round can be played by looking at the scoreboard before a game starts (during the pinging). If X player is on Y team or Z reservists are present together, the game's already decided. Literally, you can guess the outcome with 90% accuracy within the first thirty seconds of playing, before most skulks leave a hive, before a commander can reach the chair. I kid you not.
The above, obviously, is for NS, not Wombat. In Wombat, the delicate balance that NS never properly achieved in the first place was brutally murdered by a team of leather-clad sadists with dark, dark sunglasses who make the rest of your life even more horrible by saying atrociously cliché things like "Dodge this" before they shorten said rest of your life considerably (before you ask, yes, I often speak like this, as well as type in like). The reason is clear: Flayra and the devs balanced CO for fast-paced fragfest fun. Without separating it from the obligatorily slower paced, methodical, intellectual team effort that is NS. I, at least, remember games in 1.04 lasting two hours plus(!), and I remember enjoying most of those. Obviously, if Fortuna Wolf was comming, at least ninety of those minutes were spent capturing every single resource node while containing the alien team in a very limited area instead of defeating in detail the already quite subdued enemy with a solid rush, and that made for very excruciating games.
The point is, why did NS have to speed up as well? There's no reason for it, is there? NS was its own game before Wombat arrived and Attention Deficit Disorder'ed the mod. It wasn't perfect, far from it, but by <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cloves' target='_blank'>cloves</a> it worked, damnit.
Instead of the rail-bound tram-rides NS rounds have become, we used to see, and often at that, triple comebacks from both teams. Aliens lost their last hive, ninja'ed one up, reclaimed a second, a third, marines destroyed second, claimed it, destroyed another, aliens come back, destroy marines, ninja comm chair, etc. etc. etc. Granted, I used to claim to be the first and foremost server ninja, and got most of those comm chairs up myself (the trick is, be very adept at running away and hiding. Ask me sometime, I'll show you some of my better spots, and some of them you won't believe worked), but that's entirely beside the point.
Think about it; have you played a game lately that didn't feel protracted? If so, has it happened often? If so, is the server running 3.whatever with no extraneous plugins such as Unchained? And if you can still say yes to all those, tell me where so I can see this miraculous server for myself, unbelieving Judas that I am, and revel in a thing of beauty.
FR31NS is not a server for the weak-kneed. If nothing else, my massive lexicon, allowing me an extensive field from which to create ever more impressive taunts, can kill skulks at twenty paces. It's a very high level of play (one that I just barely manage to not look pathetically 'teh suck ' in. Seat-of-pants technique for the win), and you can always be assured that if you play a reservist on that server, you're in for a challenge.
Well, that used to be true. Impossibility isn't challenging, especially when the best coordinated team of excellent marines can do, pardon my French, jack diddly squat against a single fade (I'm looking at you, Coke) and subsequently lose the game by sheer expedient of the dreaded blink/swipe combo of Doom +2. (Coincidentally, we were discussing the various incarnations of Blink on our forums. That is neither here nor there, however.)
This isn't about NS dying, CO doing the death-dealing, "I hate Stomp so take it out it's killing NS" "discussions" (to use the term loosely). This is about a sub-mod of a mod unbalancing the equation.
As I stated above, NS needs a very delicate balance to work properly. And as I stated above, it never quite did. Also as hinted to above, this is because the effort went to Wombat. Even with aliens being more powerful individually than they ever could in a classic game, marines occasionally manage to prevail (if the time limit doesn't do them in first, which I personally dislike, but remains, of course, irrelevant to this post), and what does that tell you?
CO isn't the problem. It's merely the cause of the problem, because its very structure calls for those problems to exist for CO to work. To put it simply, it is acting as a parasite right now, feeding off of NS and returning toxins to the host (which, upon reflection, is a dreadfully accurate account of some of the players I have seen of late, and a very cool word because it contains an X, which is by far the coolest letter in the known universe, or at least the known universe that speaks a language with the letter X in it).
On that note (and attached parenthesis-clad digression), given that I have successfully confused the less skilled readers or individuals for whom English comes not easily, induced narcosis in the individuals of shorter attention span, and given the rest of you what I feel is a bit of "food for thought", I shall away unseen into the night, never to be read from again, insert evil laughter, dramatic flashes of lightning, and exit stage right.
i dislike CO because it's just too easy. it ruins my classic fading, and theres nothing but hackusations flying around no matter what server you go to.
i dislike it because it breeds a "selfish, CS" type atmosphere (instead of winning the game and shooting the hive, most people would prefere to spawncamp and get that uber leet 31 - 2 k/d ratio. despite the fact that ive gotten 120 - 0 k/d on co servers, i really, really dislike it. ns is all about the team, the sence of comeradery. CO is just about me me me. if CO was removed i would shed no tears, but i doubt it ever will.
Apparently I need to play Fr31NS more. I must have missed all the regs cause when I was on there with the /whois: crew we pretty much stomped whoever else was playing. From my impression it was a fair step down from playing on LM.
Anyways, You're favorated, so expect to see me more often.
thank you panzer for elequating my intrests <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
yes he can be extreemly hard to follow he loves big words and confusing phrases.
swiftspear it may well be now. as i pointed out alot of our best talent are much less frequent visiters. it lost its fun for alot of us we might show up if a bunch of the old regs go on but the community has diminshed some. there are newer regs but the community feal isnt quite the same. I truely wish you could have been there for some of our epics in 1.04 and seen the enjoyment all had. panzer is SO right about whos on what team and instant team X wins. I dont give up easily, Ill be the first to chew some one for whining game over f4. but any more they are probably right. turning the tide is one of the great things in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Panzerfaust+Apr 29 2005, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Panzerfaust @ Apr 29 2005, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me get this out of the way first off. I like wombat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat
Just checking to see if Panzerfaust has gone totally insane, or CO has been filtered by the forums.
<!--QuoteBegin-Supernorn+Apr 29 2005, 06:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Supernorn @ Apr 29 2005, 06:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Panzerfaust+Apr 29 2005, 07:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Panzerfaust @ Apr 29 2005, 07:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me get this out of the way first off. I like wombat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat
Just checking to see if Panzerfaust has gone totally insane, or CO has been filtered by the forums. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's just like saying cornbat. Wombat=Cornbat=Combat
I think my earlier post where I said combat should be removed was wrong. I don't think coombat should be removed, but refined, and gameplay should be balanced around NS for longer games (Stop buffing both teams, just nerf the stronger ones)
I've noticed combat is what drawls 90% of the new players in, but most of them, no, many of them, just never move on, and the loathing I and many feel when they notice a handful of co regulars go play ns -- How do I build this... How do I get there etc etc...
Combat, I think, was origionally meant to be a quick game in between long NS games, but the combination of shorter NS games and newbies only wanting CO maps just awe the regulars.
Maybe the stats you guys are correct, percentage wise, but what was the average for people playing ns back in 1.04 and now playing non-combat maps now? NS has now a much larger playerbase, and I can tell the difference.
Refine, not remove. Nerf, not buff.
If you guys don't like newbies, you are going to quickly turn this community into something like CS -- 3 factions, the everyday player, the elitest, and the complete newbie. We can't let that happen.
If the dev team can't do something about this, which most likely they wont, then it's simople. Whenever you see a NSPlayer, say "hey, man, want some advice? I can help you out" and tech him to enjoy NS.
The learning curve for NS is probably the highest of any HL mod I've seen, and that's great, but when the newbie sees 2 game modes, one he understands and excels in, and one he sees as only elitests play -- which do you think he will play.
This post is more or less a jumble of my thoughts, but there are things you can do.
Carry on the legacy of the NS community in being one of the most helpful, kind, and usefull communities to new players. Influence people to play NS, not by saying "ogm leik ns is leet co is *** lols!1" but by showing them the two, and assisting them heavily in the NS side and getting to kknow them as a new friend
Lately, I have been an **** to new players, just ignoring them or cussing them. But we really can't let this happen any more, let's not become a faction commmunity. Let's work together to embrace new players and helpfully let them decide on which is better.
if classic is worth it's salt, it's charm will easily hold up against the test of time, the test of new players.
Ive been playing NS since the very beginning, I begged to be in the very first playtests to no awail, I tried mapping for it and lost a whole year of progress due to a hdd crash. And yet I still love every part of it. Both NS and Combat modes are good to me.
After a long NS game (+1 hours), I tend to go playing a fast paced game of CO to break up the repetivity a bit, since that might be the reason it was implemented in first place. To give us players something more to enjoy.
Flayra has spend countless hours of his own spare time to give us a game to play. So please, dont go around saying things like "New versions suck as hell! revert to old ones instead!!11"..
He and the rest of the great ns team do not deserve to be bashed over because someone failed to adapt to the new versions. What IS natural selection actually about? Adapt or Die.
The game is free for u to play or not. How many games are there out there with this much replayability and fun while still being free? Not many, I tell ya.
The complaining in this thread reminds me of every update in each mod I've played. Someone always likes the beta more than any updates. Reminds me of grumpy old men talking about how it used to be in the old days.
I played NS a long time ago and just recently got back into it. I like CO maps, they've helped me understand how to battle as an alien on NS maps. I'm much more of a help to my team BECAUSE I had a chance to fight as a lerk or onos. I tried onos before on NS and died very quickly wasting a lot of res and couldn't practice it like you need to.
Keep CO maps...people will slowly get to NS maps. You keep the CS only crowd in CO maps and filter the team players into NS maps.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
It's like this in any game where the game is updated. Check out blizzard's forums after any patch, for example <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
co bring: <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> * vote for co. * hive camping spaw. * rambos. * not functional bases or not build ms. * less catch nodes. * top frag. * alien teamplay broke no more ppl saving for hive but for onos. * ppl not securing rts or hives but ms when too late like lockdown other hives and half more nodes. * The cheater'S *fun maps like cs *slave gorges/commander for old player's
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> * hive healing. * new mappers * new maps * new players * new and massive bots * bring back old player's
i palyed 2.0 and 2.1 stop for 7 months and back i found this mes of cs players and co, in the first time ncie learning but after 3 months co isnt more working to me after 3 month im tired os i star make maps and waiting new release since fix the massive upgrades aliens lsot up since die balance well and play more 3 months and almost end my map but i wanna start my ns_map since i finish the co_map.
But nowadays all you find for CO servers are 50 levels extra upgrades +++.
I hate that ****. I was on a server the other day with the extra levels plugin and you could get a server mod upgrade called "cybernetics" on level 10 which makes a marine run around the map at 50 miles per hour.
I can't find many servers without these horrible plugins that **** up the balance of combat, so I usually play NS.
I think combat is still necessary, its relaxing, its a change of pace from NS, but I do agree that changes in CO shouldn't necessarily alter the balance, slower paced games of NS.
Hey, old school NS 1.0 player here. How are things nowadays? I stopped playing a few weeks after 2.0 was released. I'm downloading the torrent for the installer as I post this.
<!--QuoteBegin-ubermensch+Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ubermensch @ Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fangs, if NS players are Republicans, and CO players are Democrats, then you are Tom DeLay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I love that analogy, it is true in almost every way!
I only play siege maps. Other then that NS is freaking boring. It was a good ride tho. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*yawn* this made it to page 12? Just think of how many NS servers would be full if the NS players were playing NS rather than writing essays saying how much they can't play the game.
Most of you guys are all making this mole hill into a mountain, Fangs and Kendrick for example. Let's see, im going to load up steam now and pretend I wanna play a game of NS classic. Sorting by best possible pings I see a game of ns_lost 18/20 I could join now. Below that is a 10/12 ns_veil. And a 15/16 ns_tanith. All servers had no bots and were not locked. There's 3 servers (got bored and stoped looking) that you could easily join instead of complaining about being unable to join servers.
But hey, I know NS classic is as boring as hell, so I bet complaining is more fun for you.
Infact, did anyone ever think that it's becuase NS classic is such a dull and boring game that everyone loves co? All you fools want to get rid of CO, if you did that than everyone would just leave, there would be under 100 servers (probably under 50), and pratically no playerbase. NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck. A proper fix is not coming soon, so untill it does the majority of players will prefer CO over NS.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Apr 30 2005, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Apr 30 2005, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *yawn* this made it to page 12? Just think of how many NS servers would be full if the NS players were playing NS rather than writing essays saying how much they can't play the game.
Most of you guys are all making this mole hill into a mountain, Fangs and Kendrick for example. Let's see, im going to load up steam now and pretend I wanna play a game of NS classic. Sorting by best possible pings I see a game of ns_lost 18/20 I could join now. Below that is a 10/12 ns_veil. And a 15/16 ns_tanith. All servers had no bots and were not locked. There's 3 servers (got bored and stoped looking) that you could easily join instead of complaining about being unable to join servers.
But hey, I know NS classic is as boring as hell, so I bet complaining is more fun for you.
Infact, did anyone ever think that it's becuase NS classic is such a dull and boring game that everyone loves co? All you fools want to get rid of CO, if you did that than everyone would just leave, there would be under 100 servers (probably under 50), and pratically no playerbase. NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck. A proper fix is not coming soon, so untill it does the majority of players will prefer CO over NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROCKED
but classic is fun to play when you are playing with players that know what they are doing (I know EVERYONE is the exception to this, as no one will admit they don 't know what they are doing), but combat is fun when you are playing with a bunch of people of lesser talent.
it is possible in CO to take the game over yourself, in NS it is not possible (with few exceptions, and again EVERYONE is the exception).
This is why CO is great, it gives people a chance to play in the NS enviornment, without the hinderence of lesser quality players (again, everyone is the exception to this rule).
This is why CO remains popular, that and the action is very quick.
<!--QuoteBegin-aeroripper+Apr 30 2005, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aeroripper @ Apr 30 2005, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow, the ignorance is strong with this one <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you think putting someone in a commander chair and saying "here - go command your team and hope they listen to you" is a good way for NS to promote teamwork?
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 30 2005, 07:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 30 2005, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ubermensch+Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ubermensch @ Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fangs, if NS players are Republicans, and CO players are Democrats, then you are Tom DeLay. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love that analogy, it is true in almost every way! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Too much stereotyping going on. You guys keep compartmentalizing yourselves into these imaginary categories.
<!--QuoteBegin-liquidscript+Apr 30 2005, 02:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (liquidscript @ Apr 30 2005, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 30 2005, 07:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 30 2005, 07:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-ubermensch+Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ubermensch @ Apr 29 2005, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fangs, if NS players are Republicans, and CO players are Democrats, then you are Tom DeLay. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love that analogy, it is true in almost every way! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Too much stereotyping going on. You guys keep compartmentalizing yourselves into these imaginary categories.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> THANKYOU for noticing. theres atleast a fiew people who are willing to think about this.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Posted on Apr 30 2005, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Posted on Apr 30 2005, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *yawn* this made it to page 12? Just think of how many NS servers would be full if the NS players were playing NS rather than writing essays saying how much they can't play the game.
But hey, I know NS classic is as boring as hell, so I bet complaining is more fun for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
stop defending your PRIDE and look at what is proposed as a problem. you as do others on both "sides" seem to busy attacking other people to realise if you looked in the mirror you might see another. I wrote those essay's because I am passonate about ns and enjoying ns. This has little to do with every one whom loves ns saying banish co from the universe. some may like that idea but that is not what we are saying the problem is! how co was introduced and shares its server with the ns servers is not a good thing! would you appriciate it if cs and tfc toggled on the same server depending on player count? I doubt it. That to a extent, is whats goin on. the "NS" croud cant easily force ns on the "CO" crowd but the co crowd CAN easily force co on the "NS" croud. THAT is the problem in co vs ns. would you appriciate it if we were able to get the devs to balance ns perfectly and ignore what that does to co? as i remember in one of the versions of co every one was freeking out due to such a balance for ns that made focus ubber. as much as you did not appriciate that we dont appriciate it when the reverse is done. My complaint is that the two are very seperate games in many aspects yet their balances are directly tied in to eachother so you have to mess one up to fix the other. but that is 1 of 3 existing in this community! Most havent been willing to look at the other two because they are to busy defending their PRIDE. I have tryed to not attack people in my posts but to bring to light what i see as a serous problem in somthing i truely enjoy. lats time i checked that was one of the good things about the american freedom. Am I a english major who can say every thing elequently NO. but at leas I try to do somthing about what i see is a problem. you sound content to troll how ever i could be wrong. You seem to totaly ignore what is being questioned. fangs may have chosen poorly in how he worded his meaning/titol but it certinaly got some of the communitys attension.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Apr 30 2005, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Apr 30 2005, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-aeroripper+Apr 30 2005, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (aeroripper @ Apr 30 2005, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> wow, the ignorance is strong with this one <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you think putting someone in a commander chair and saying "here - go command your team and hope they listen to you" is a good way for NS to promote teamwork? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, what i was referring to is the natural selection is a TEAMPLAY game and is not hindered by teamwork. You said that its a deathmatch game and is hindered by teamwork as such.
Your quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't say NS is dead, but decent ns_ public play almost is. (At least here in Germany.)
It's sad how many servers I don't play on because they run balance changing and/or simply stupid plugins like Lerklift, Sporemine, Lasermines, Resplugins, UTSounds (WTH?!) and so on...
Comments
Let me get this out of the way first off. I like wombat. It's refreshingly uncomplicated, I think, so I tend to enjoy it more lately.
This doesn't make me happy.
I came to NS in the day of 1.04, missing the actual patch day by less than a week, I believe, and it made me keep my reinstall of Half-Life. I played TFC for years uncounted, but it got boring (not to brag, but people would leave my favorite server when they saw me come in. This never happens in NS. I draw crowds.). Someone suggested NS, so, here I am.
I've seen a lot, and I've formulated my opinions about what changes were bad, what changes were stupid, and what changes didn't affect anything. Some changes were good, I grant you that, but they were horribly outnumbered, like a webbed marine down to his last pistol clip facing down an Onos with an appetite serving as the team (cat)bus for a dozen skulks.
It's been inexpertly stated by Kendrick in his last few posts. Wombat, taken out of the context of NS, as a game, is fine, more or less. Sure, aliens can be much more powerful in Wombat than they ever could in NS (Regen/Cara/Adren/Celerity/Focus/Cloak Fade, anyone?), which gives marines (should I get Armor 3, or a better weapon?) a serious problem, but it's CO. No-one cares. Your brain can happily shut down for a period of however long your server has CO rounds set to, and no-one complains because that is its purpose.
I don't complain because I just web up the whole marine team while laughing at them over alltalk (ask Nadsy, she says playing on my team is more entertaining than playing the actual game).
Look at it in context, however. At least, look at it in context of my experiences on FR31NS (I've played on three servers, and if you take out FR31NS, you're left with about 3 minutes play time elsewhere).
As things stand now, I feel that the entire round can be played by looking at the scoreboard before a game starts (during the pinging). If X player is on Y team or Z reservists are present together, the game's already decided. Literally, you can guess the outcome with 90% accuracy within the first thirty seconds of playing, before most skulks leave a hive, before a commander can reach the chair. I kid you not.
The above, obviously, is for NS, not Wombat. In Wombat, the delicate balance that NS never properly achieved in the first place was brutally murdered by a team of leather-clad sadists with dark, dark sunglasses who make the rest of your life even more horrible by saying atrociously cliché things like "Dodge this" before they shorten said rest of your life considerably (before you ask, yes, I often speak like this, as well as type in like). The reason is clear: Flayra and the devs balanced CO for fast-paced fragfest fun. Without separating it from the obligatorily slower paced, methodical, intellectual team effort that is NS. I, at least, remember games in 1.04 lasting two hours plus(!), and I remember enjoying most of those. Obviously, if Fortuna Wolf was comming, at least ninety of those minutes were spent capturing every single resource node while containing the alien team in a very limited area instead of defeating in detail the already quite subdued enemy with a solid rush, and that made for very excruciating games.
The point is, why did NS have to speed up as well? There's no reason for it, is there? NS was its own game before Wombat arrived and Attention Deficit Disorder'ed the mod. It wasn't perfect, far from it, but by <a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cloves' target='_blank'>cloves</a> it worked, damnit.
Instead of the rail-bound tram-rides NS rounds have become, we used to see, and often at that, triple comebacks from both teams. Aliens lost their last hive, ninja'ed one up, reclaimed a second, a third, marines destroyed second, claimed it, destroyed another, aliens come back, destroy marines, ninja comm chair, etc. etc. etc. Granted, I used to claim to be the first and foremost server ninja, and got most of those comm chairs up myself (the trick is, be very adept at running away and hiding. Ask me sometime, I'll show you some of my better spots, and some of them you won't believe worked), but that's entirely beside the point.
Think about it; have you played a game lately that didn't feel protracted? If so, has it happened often? If so, is the server running 3.whatever with no extraneous plugins such as Unchained? And if you can still say yes to all those, tell me where so I can see this miraculous server for myself, unbelieving Judas that I am, and revel in a thing of beauty.
FR31NS is not a server for the weak-kneed. If nothing else, my massive lexicon, allowing me an extensive field from which to create ever more impressive taunts, can kill skulks at twenty paces. It's a very high level of play (one that I just barely manage to not look pathetically 'teh suck ' in. Seat-of-pants technique for the win), and you can always be assured that if you play a reservist on that server, you're in for a challenge.
Well, that used to be true. Impossibility isn't challenging, especially when the best coordinated team of excellent marines can do, pardon my French, jack diddly squat against a single fade (I'm looking at you, Coke) and subsequently lose the game by sheer expedient of the dreaded blink/swipe combo of Doom +2. (Coincidentally, we were discussing the various incarnations of Blink on our forums. That is neither here nor there, however.)
This isn't about NS dying, CO doing the death-dealing, "I hate Stomp so take it out it's killing NS" "discussions" (to use the term loosely). This is about a sub-mod of a mod unbalancing the equation.
As I stated above, NS needs a very delicate balance to work properly. And as I stated above, it never quite did. Also as hinted to above, this is because the effort went to Wombat. Even with aliens being more powerful individually than they ever could in a classic game, marines occasionally manage to prevail (if the time limit doesn't do them in first, which I personally dislike, but remains, of course, irrelevant to this post), and what does that tell you?
CO isn't the problem. It's merely the cause of the problem, because its very structure calls for those problems to exist for CO to work. To put it simply, it is acting as a parasite right now, feeding off of NS and returning toxins to the host (which, upon reflection, is a dreadfully accurate account of some of the players I have seen of late, and a very cool word because it contains an X, which is by far the coolest letter in the known universe, or at least the known universe that speaks a language with the letter X in it).
On that note (and attached parenthesis-clad digression), given that I have successfully confused the less skilled readers or individuals for whom English comes not easily, induced narcosis in the individuals of shorter attention span, and given the rest of you what I feel is a bit of "food for thought", I shall away unseen into the night, never to be read from again, insert evil laughter, dramatic flashes of lightning, and exit stage right.
-Karrde-
i dislike it because it breeds a "selfish, CS" type atmosphere (instead of winning the game and shooting the hive, most people would prefere to spawncamp and get that uber leet 31 - 2 k/d ratio. despite the fact that ive gotten 120 - 0 k/d on co servers, i really, really dislike it. ns is all about the team, the sence of comeradery. CO is just about me me me. if CO was removed i would shed no tears, but i doubt it ever will.
my 2 cents.
-Karrde- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Apparently I need to play Fr31NS more. I must have missed all the regs cause when I was on there with the /whois: crew we pretty much stomped whoever else was playing. From my impression it was a fair step down from playing on LM.
Anyways, You're favorated, so expect to see me more often.
yes he can be extreemly hard to follow he loves big words and confusing phrases.
swiftspear it may well be now. as i pointed out alot of our best talent are much less frequent visiters. it lost its fun for alot of us we might show up if a bunch of the old regs go on but the community has diminshed some. there are newer regs but the community feal isnt quite the same. I truely wish you could have been there for some of our epics in 1.04 and seen the enjoyment all had. panzer is SO right about whos on what team and instant team X wins. I dont give up easily, Ill be the first to chew some one for whining game over f4. but any more they are probably right. turning the tide is one of the great things in the game.
Combat
Just checking to see if Panzerfaust has gone totally insane, or CO has been filtered by the forums.
Combat
Just checking to see if Panzerfaust has gone totally insane, or CO has been filtered by the forums. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just like saying cornbat. Wombat=Cornbat=Combat
I've noticed combat is what drawls 90% of the new players in, but most of them, no, many of them, just never move on, and the loathing I and many feel when they notice a handful of co regulars go play ns -- How do I build this... How do I get there etc etc...
Combat, I think, was origionally meant to be a quick game in between long NS games, but the combination of shorter NS games and newbies only wanting CO maps just awe the regulars.
Maybe the stats you guys are correct, percentage wise, but what was the average for people playing ns back in 1.04 and now playing non-combat maps now? NS has now a much larger playerbase, and I can tell the difference.
Refine, not remove. Nerf, not buff.
If you guys don't like newbies, you are going to quickly turn this community into something like CS -- 3 factions, the everyday player, the elitest, and the complete newbie. We can't let that happen.
If the dev team can't do something about this, which most likely they wont, then it's simople. Whenever you see a NSPlayer, say "hey, man, want some advice? I can help you out" and tech him to enjoy NS.
The learning curve for NS is probably the highest of any HL mod I've seen, and that's great, but when the newbie sees 2 game modes, one he understands and excels in, and one he sees as only elitests play -- which do you think he will play.
This post is more or less a jumble of my thoughts, but there are things you can do.
Carry on the legacy of the NS community in being one of the most helpful, kind, and usefull communities to new players. Influence people to play NS, not by saying "ogm leik ns is leet co is *** lols!1" but by showing them the two, and assisting them heavily in the NS side and getting to kknow them as a new friend
Lately, I have been an **** to new players, just ignoring them or cussing them. But we really can't let this happen any more, let's not become a faction commmunity. Let's work together to embrace new players and helpfully let them decide on which is better.
if classic is worth it's salt, it's charm will easily hold up against the test of time, the test of new players.
These are the same people who say they hate 'wasting 20 minutes of their life' because a new comm was learning to comm.
They're the same people who yell at you for not knowing the maps.
They're the same people who can't remember how much of a noob they once were.
Frankly they would hate playing with any of the new population and somehow have decided to blame their own stupid prejudice on CO.
After a long NS game (+1 hours), I tend to go playing a fast paced game of CO to break up the repetivity a bit, since that might be the reason it was implemented in first place. To give us players something more to enjoy.
Flayra has spend countless hours of his own spare time to give us a game to play. So please, dont go around saying things like "New versions suck as hell! revert to old ones instead!!11"..
He and the rest of the great ns team do not deserve to be bashed over because someone failed to adapt to the new versions. What IS natural selection actually about? Adapt or Die.
The game is free for u to play or not. How many games are there out there with this much replayability and fun while still being free? Not many, I tell ya.
I played NS a long time ago and just recently got back into it. I like CO maps, they've helped me understand how to battle as an alien on NS maps. I'm much more of a help to my team BECAUSE I had a chance to fight as a lerk or onos. I tried onos before on NS and died very quickly wasting a lot of res and couldn't practice it like you need to.
Keep CO maps...people will slowly get to NS maps. You keep the CS only crowd in CO maps and filter the team players into NS maps.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
* vote for co.
* hive camping spaw.
* rambos.
* not functional bases or not build ms.
* less catch nodes.
* top frag.
* alien teamplay broke no more ppl saving for hive but for onos.
* ppl not securing rts or hives but ms when too late like lockdown other hives and half more nodes.
* The cheater'S
*fun maps like cs
*slave gorges/commander for old player's
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
* hive healing.
* new mappers
* new maps
* new players
* new and massive bots
* bring back old player's
i palyed 2.0 and 2.1 stop for 7 months and back i found this mes of cs players and co, in the first time ncie learning but after 3 months co isnt more working to me after 3 month im tired os i star make maps and waiting new release since fix the massive upgrades aliens lsot up since die balance well and play more 3 months and almost end my map but i wanna start my ns_map since i finish the co_map.
But nowadays all you find for CO servers are 50 levels extra upgrades +++.
I hate that ****. I was on a server the other day with the extra levels plugin and you could get a server mod upgrade called "cybernetics" on level 10 which makes a marine run around the map at 50 miles per hour.
I can't find many servers without these horrible plugins that **** up the balance of combat, so I usually play NS.
I think combat is still necessary, its relaxing, its a change of pace from NS, but I do agree that changes in CO shouldn't necessarily alter the balance, slower paced games of NS.
I love that analogy, it is true in almost every way!
Most of you guys are all making this mole hill into a mountain, Fangs and Kendrick for example. Let's see, im going to load up steam now and pretend I wanna play a game of NS classic. Sorting by best possible pings I see a game of ns_lost 18/20 I could join now. Below that is a 10/12 ns_veil. And a 15/16 ns_tanith. All servers had no bots and were not locked. There's 3 servers (got bored and stoped looking) that you could easily join instead of complaining about being unable to join servers.
But hey, I know NS classic is as boring as hell, so I bet complaining is more fun for you.
Infact, did anyone ever think that it's becuase NS classic is such a dull and boring game that everyone loves co? All you fools want to get rid of CO, if you did that than everyone would just leave, there would be under 100 servers (probably under 50), and pratically no playerbase. NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck. A proper fix is not coming soon, so untill it does the majority of players will prefer CO over NS.
wow, the ignorance is strong with this one
Most of you guys are all making this mole hill into a mountain, Fangs and Kendrick for example. Let's see, im going to load up steam now and pretend I wanna play a game of NS classic. Sorting by best possible pings I see a game of ns_lost 18/20 I could join now. Below that is a 10/12 ns_veil. And a 15/16 ns_tanith. All servers had no bots and were not locked. There's 3 servers (got bored and stoped looking) that you could easily join instead of complaining about being unable to join servers.
But hey, I know NS classic is as boring as hell, so I bet complaining is more fun for you.
Infact, did anyone ever think that it's becuase NS classic is such a dull and boring game that everyone loves co? All you fools want to get rid of CO, if you did that than everyone would just leave, there would be under 100 servers (probably under 50), and pratically no playerbase. NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck. A proper fix is not coming soon, so untill it does the majority of players will prefer CO over NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROCKED
but classic is fun to play when you are playing with players that know what they are doing (I know EVERYONE is the exception to this, as no one will admit they don 't know what they are doing), but combat is fun when you are playing with a bunch of people of lesser talent.
it is possible in CO to take the game over yourself, in NS it is not possible (with few exceptions, and again EVERYONE is the exception).
This is why CO is great, it gives people a chance to play in the NS enviornment, without the hinderence of lesser quality players (again, everyone is the exception to this rule).
This is why CO remains popular, that and the action is very quick.
So you think putting someone in a commander chair and saying "here - go command your team and hope they listen to you" is a good way for NS to promote teamwork?
I love that analogy, it is true in almost every way! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too much stereotyping going on. You guys keep compartmentalizing yourselves into these imaginary categories.
I love that analogy, it is true in almost every way! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too much stereotyping going on. You guys keep compartmentalizing yourselves into these imaginary categories.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THANKYOU for noticing. theres atleast a fiew people who are willing to think about this.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Posted on Apr 30 2005, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Posted on Apr 30 2005, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *yawn* this made it to page 12? Just think of how many NS servers would be full if the NS players were playing NS rather than writing essays saying how much they can't play the game.
But hey, I know NS classic is as boring as hell, so I bet complaining is more fun for you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
stop defending your PRIDE and look at what is proposed as a problem. you as do others on both "sides" seem to busy attacking other people to realise if you looked in the mirror you might see another. I wrote those essay's because I am passonate about ns and enjoying ns. This has little to do with every one whom loves ns saying banish co from the universe. some may like that idea but that is not what we are saying the problem is! how co was introduced and shares its server with the ns servers is not a good thing! would you appriciate it if cs and tfc toggled on the same server depending on player count? I doubt it. That to a extent, is whats goin on. the "NS" croud cant easily force ns on the "CO" crowd but the co crowd CAN easily force co on the "NS" croud. THAT is the problem in co vs ns. would you appriciate it if we were able to get the devs to balance ns perfectly and ignore what that does to co? as i remember in one of the versions of co every one was freeking out due to such a balance for ns that made focus ubber. as much as you did not appriciate that we dont appriciate it when the reverse is done. My complaint is that the two are very seperate games in many aspects yet their balances are directly tied in to eachother so you have to mess one up to fix the other. but that is 1 of 3 existing in this community! Most havent been willing to look at the other two because they are to busy defending their PRIDE. I have tryed to not attack people in my posts but to bring to light what i see as a serous problem in somthing i truely enjoy. lats time i checked that was one of the good things about the american freedom. Am I a english major who can say every thing elequently NO. but at leas I try to do somthing about what i see is a problem. you sound content to troll how ever i could be wrong. You seem to totaly ignore what is being questioned. fangs may have chosen poorly in how he worded his meaning/titol but it certinaly got some of the communitys attension.
But...to get on topic....I think it's alive! There, no ban for me! hahaha......I'm first to go, aren't I?
So you think putting someone in a commander chair and saying "here - go command your team and hope they listen to you" is a good way for NS to promote teamwork? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, what i was referring to is the natural selection is a TEAMPLAY game and is not hindered by teamwork. You said that its a deathmatch game and is hindered by teamwork as such.
Your quote:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is a deathmatch game that is hindered by teamplayer requirements and untill the dev team fixs this, NS will always suck.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Long live the <s>king</s> Natural Selection.
stop defending your PRIDE<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You heard him, steve! This is no longer about pride, it's about Natural Selection!!!!
(At least here in Germany.)
It's sad how many servers I don't play on because they run balance changing and/or simply stupid plugins like Lerklift, Sporemine, Lasermines, Resplugins, UTSounds (WTH?!) and so on...
The rest are:
~ Co_ servers, of which many are infested with cheaters fresh from CS, and operated by kids who think running Kazaa or BT on the same server is swell.
~ Custom servers run by idiots, for idiots. Some of the worst gaming communities ever can be found in the custom map servers.
~ Botted or empty.