Bunnyhopping has been around since quake times, and the concept of increasing total speed by diagonal movement has been around since doom (notice that back then neither was frowned upon, more on that later).
In doom it was all simple:
For clarity's sake, let's say you could move forward 1 unit, or you could strafe left or right one unit. Now, due to the way movement was implemented in doom, you could also move diagonally sqrt(1^2+1^2) which is roughly 1.41, in the same amount of time. Now, it is no easy task to move horizontally all the time, so players would hit strafe left/right in regular intervals.
Now, in quake it became slightly more complicated than that. In essence, a stricter speed limit was implemented; however two workaround were found: One is hitting strafe very rapidly, before the limitations kicks in. However, this method granted a negligible speed boost. The other is Bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping had two main advantages: frist, it makes the target harder to hit (do you like being smacked in the face by a rocket before you even spot the enemy? Of course you don't. But in direct combat, bunnyhopping per se was almost never used. One that can bunnyhop in combat and keep the enemy in his sight has truly admirable reflexes), and more importantly it provides a significant movement speed increase. Proper bunnyhopping was accomplished by jumping diagonally and switching direction upon landing. This method ignored the newly imposed speed restrctions since they had no or little effect in the air; fall and jump speeds were not restricted. Bunnyhopping became quite popular and migrated into other games upon thier release.
Now, the point I want to make here is that these "exploits" weren't always considered bad; surely, bunnyhopping is more appropraite in a game such as quake or ut2003 rather than CS or NS, but there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Tactics such as bunnyhopping, wallcrawling, jump curve point "exploits", fovs of 120, etc used to be the litte "know-hows" the more experienced players used to enjoy, and the casual players used to wonder about. Now all I hear is whines. Sigh.
Removing Bunnyhopping directly from HL is impossible. The reason is because of Half-Life's air control. You can easily turn all the way around in midair provided you are high enough and going fast enough (basically any TFC weapon jump is a good example.). Turnnig through the air in HL makes you speed up. Thus creating bunnyhopping. The reason you could go super fast in old HL patches was because when you hit the ground from whatever you propelled yourself with, you would lose little or no speed. So you could have TFC Soldiers jump 3x farther than a normal Scout's jump. But now, as soon as you land, no matter what, you lose all extra speed and it drops to 170%.
I don't think a stamina meter system would work well in NS.. It's used in practically every game that has "realism". NS is far from realism. I don't think it messes up the game too much, since most people have no idea how to do it anyway, or know how but can't (Like me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
uhhhhh....HL mods have a varible which movement in the air can be either turned on or off. I cant remember it off hand....I think it sv_airmove or something. Another one also affected the speed of which one moves while in the air. I think it was...sv_airaccelerate...not sure tho.
Bunny hopping sucks in all FPS's, except for those big bouncy deathmatch ones like quake and unreal, where the game is focused on it. I don't think it belongs in NS at all. Not being able to fire while jumping and the addition of a stamina bar would be great, IMHO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone else had problems with accidentally hitting the right mouse button while trying to do complicated maneuvers and getting killed because the **obscenity** pop-up menu prevents you from attacking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yea Ive done that a ton as skulk <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone else had problems with accidentally hitting the right mouse button while trying to do complicated maneuvers and getting killed because the **obscenity** pop-up menu prevents you from attacking?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I certainly didnt until you said.... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The issue with bhopping in C-S was that all the maps were designed with the fact that the Ts or CTs could get to location X in Y seconds. With bhopping, the assaulting team could completely bypass traditional choke points and ruin map balance. I like it in DM games like UT and Quake, but for anything team-based, if the map doesn't take bhopping into account, it shouldn't be allowed.
In regards to just jumping around: I know if there was a little alien critter trying to bite my legs off, I'd be jumping around like a mad man. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Haha, earlier today I joined a public server playing Eclipse, and the marines had basically already lost the game. The aliens had three hives and the marines were trapped inside their original base room. So, I decided to have some fun and went out hunting with just my knife and light armor. I reached the horseshoe and all of a sudden an Onos came charging around the corner. Post soiling myself I proceded to bunny hop around the lunatic Onos as he attempted his charge attack time and time again. I was slashing like crazy with my knife and jumping out of the way just at the precise right time to avoid getting hit. And then he died! I had just killed an Onos with a knife, in light armor, one on one! I'm uncertain whether the thing was hurt prior to the fight, but I doubt he was because my whole team was still hiding in the base.
Short story made long, I know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think many onos players fail to realize that there is a bite attack, too <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--sciolist+Nov 19 2002, 10:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sciolist @ Nov 19 2002, 10:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haha, earlier today I joined a public server playing Eclipse, and the marines had basically already lost the game. The aliens had three hives and the marines were trapped inside their original base room. So, I decided to have some fun and went out hunting with just my knife and light armor. I reached the horseshoe and all of a sudden an Onos came charging around the corner. Post soiling myself I proceded to bunny hop around the lunatic Onos as he attempted his charge attack time and time again. I was slashing like crazy with my knife and jumping out of the way just at the precise right time to avoid getting hit. And then he died! I had just killed an Onos with a knife, in light armor, one on one! I'm uncertain whether the thing was hurt prior to the fight, but I doubt he was because my whole team was still hiding in the base.
Short story made long, I know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey! I was ON a server a little while ago playing Eclipse where a marine jumpy/knifed a Onos! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't know if it was you but pretty fancy footwork there cowboy!
On the server I was on I think the had Onos just finished doing a charge into the marine spawn and he was retreating to heal. He certainly didn't expect a bold LA marine to come slish-slashing down the hallway after him. It was like watching a dog chase it's tail when he dicovered and attempted to take out the marine! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe this is the marines version of the Skulk Rush; a low tech, low points method of mayham. 7 marines bounding down the hallway with knife brandished gang-slashing everything they run across! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I didn't mean to make a huge deal out of jumpy/knifing, this thread sort of unraveled into 20+ posts.
I've heard a few interesting positions and I do know bunny hopping (as a way to evade attack) has been a part of FPS since the beginning. However, NS is no simple FPS. It is a TFPS (A part). Teamplay First Person Shooters have different demands when it comes to gameplay and strategy. Most TFPS take the emphasis off the individual and creates the importance of combined arms and (semi on Pubs) coordinated attacks hence the importance of working as a team.
So, the question is whether jumpy/knifing really detracts from teamplay or gameplay. If not, then couldn't it just be considered a last ditch effort from a marine to stay alive. Somebody posted if dog sized monsters with rows upon rows of sharp teeth was trying to bite off their ankles they would be hopping like mad. I liked that and somehow I can't really disagree with that. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So I guess this is where the discussion has evolved;
What do you think of jumpy/knifing and welder kills and would you like to see a stamina bar in future versions? For those who disagree don't just say Stamina Bar sucks, present your case. I can't immediately think of any bad reasons for a stamina bar, although I can't really think of any reason to add one either. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
There are many other games that had such issues. Magic Carpet also had it (simple diagonal movement). Tribes had the skiing. There, it was very bad, because it was a team game like NS, but unlike NS all equipment was freely available, this was balanced by making the heavy armors much slower. So a heavy was free, but you couldn't really expect to get to the enemy base with it (BIG maps) unless you got some help from your team. With the ski exploit, a heavy could zip across the map and blow up enemy bases very quickly. It did take skill, but it still ruined the balance.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fantasmo+Nov 20 2002, 09:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fantasmo @ Nov 20 2002, 09:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, I knew about this but like you said, the speed increase just doesn't justify walking around with no ranged weapon at ready.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It often does justify walking around with no ranged weapon - if you're somewhere that is likely to be safe, for instance.
Besides, if you have hud_fastswitch off, you can pull out the knife, then highlight your ranged weapon, without selecting it. Thus, when you need to shoot, simply hit fire and it pops out with a very small delay. Unless you're taken totally by surprise, you'll be ok... and if you were taken totally by surprise, chances are you were dead anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--biodecay+Nov 20 2002, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (biodecay @ Nov 20 2002, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It often does justify walking around with no ranged weapon - if you're somewhere that is likely to be safe, for instance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hee hee, do you EVER feel safe in NS? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I prefer caution over speed unless I'm JP Scouting. I try not to go anywhere by myself but it does happen from time to time. When I am traveling alone I tend to be very careful, especially if I've got pricy equipment. I find rushing or moving too quickly leaves you vulnerable to skulk ambushes.
It really depends on where I'm going, how far it is and just how urgently do I have to get there but most of the time I concentrate on getting there in one piece rather then quickly.
Targets with scrunched hitboxes are more difficult to inflict damage upon. When a person crouches thier hitboxes get scrunched. If a bher crouches while in the air he is taking advantage of a exploit.
<!--QuoteBegin--Typhon+Nov 19 2002, 02:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Nov 19 2002, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO bunnyhopping is completely non-realistic, spoils the atmosphere, and is an exploit. I am totally against it.
Welding as a weapon is a great addition to the game. It allows the marines to easily take out structures that are undefended without using 84lb of ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO
Thar \Thar\, n. (Zo["o]l.) A goatlike animal (Capra Jemlaica) native of the Himalayas. It has small, flattened horns, curved directly backward. The hair of the neck, shoulders, and chest of the male is very long, reaching to the knees.
Oh no, not bunny hopping, it is totally unrealistic. It ruins my game every time. When I go to bed at night I cry about how much my life sucks because any marine can tap the jump button and look like Micheal Jordan. Not to mention, how much it ruins the whole 'Marines vs. Aliens on creepy spaceship thing.'
I mean, when I play a game I don't want it to be gamelike at all, that is why I play CS, because it is so realistic now that they took bunnyhopping out!
But strafejumping is totally okay, I mean it is in no way related to bunnyhopping. I think if you don't know what strafejumping is, you aren't exactly smart!
Okay... hopefully you may sense the sarcasm in this post, if not, well then know that it is really sarcasm. A bad rendition of it, I know. :(
It is just a game, and this bunnyhopping, strafejumping, whatever the hell you want to call it doesn't imbalance anything. Oh no, skulks might have to hit a moving target!
I guess what I just want to point out that perhaps arguing this little tiny point isn't exactly a good use of time. I actually just realize I could of been playing some sweet sweet NS in the few minutes it took me to process this thread and write a reply.
besides it looks stupid, bunnyhopping ruins the games balance. it did in every game before incl. tfc and cs. easy as that! bunnyhopping is an exploit, and using an exploit is a cheat. I just hope they will remove bunnyhopping just like the other mods out there.
I have an idea: let's just weld the marines' feet to the floor. That way they automatically turtle up in their base (which they pretty much do anyway).
You guys are complaining about something that doesn't look realistic to you when the marine is made up of a bunch of triangles. I haven't seen a game <b>yet</b> where a marine ended a skulk rush with knifing. Getting knifed is still a mark of shame because it's <i>so easy to avoid</i>. When you can post evidence of the marines winning the game because of jump-knife kills then I might consider it, but most likely I'll tell you to sharpen up your skills against the bot first.
I find being knifed as a skulk to be quite humiliating..it means that I've done something extremely stupid. However, as for the jumpy/knifers, I've run into my share...and so far, I'm 10-1, my favor. Yummy Marine.
I think a stamina cap or something would be good, I mean how many times in a row can someone jump and still maintain weapon control, non-stop hopping is gaay. My poor skulk gets motion sickness from looking through his teeth trying to find you. At least maybee your pistol should fall out of your holster after 10 jumps, hehe
There's no need for a stamina counter - Anyone who hops around like an idiot knows full well they look like a moron. There's no real game advantage to be gained by this practice, it just looks stupid.
Maybe I'll start banning people for doing that...you may enjoy seeing little 11 year old kids mashing the spacebar in your games, but I don't.
Comments
In doom it was all simple:
For clarity's sake, let's say you could move forward 1 unit, or you could strafe left or right one unit. Now, due to the way movement was implemented in doom, you could also move diagonally sqrt(1^2+1^2) which is roughly 1.41, in the same amount of time. Now, it is no easy task to move horizontally all the time, so players would hit strafe left/right in regular intervals.
Now, in quake it became slightly more complicated than that. In essence, a stricter speed limit was implemented; however two workaround were found: One is hitting strafe very rapidly, before the limitations kicks in. However, this method granted a negligible speed boost. The other is Bunnyhopping. Bunnyhopping had two main advantages: frist, it makes the target harder to hit (do you like being smacked in the face by a rocket before you even spot the enemy? Of course you don't. But in direct combat, bunnyhopping per se was almost never used. One that can bunnyhop in combat and keep the enemy in his sight has truly admirable reflexes), and more importantly it provides a significant movement speed increase. Proper bunnyhopping was accomplished by jumping diagonally and switching direction upon landing. This method ignored the newly imposed speed restrctions since they had no or little effect in the air; fall and jump speeds were not restricted. Bunnyhopping became quite popular and migrated into other games upon thier release.
Now, the point I want to make here is that these "exploits" weren't always considered bad; surely, bunnyhopping is more appropraite in a game such as quake or ut2003 rather than CS or NS, but there is nothing inherently wrong with it. Tactics such as bunnyhopping, wallcrawling, jump curve point "exploits", fovs of 120, etc used to be the litte "know-hows" the more experienced players used to enjoy, and the casual players used to wonder about. Now all I hear is whines. Sigh.
I don't think a stamina meter system would work well in NS.. It's used in practically every game that has "realism". NS is far from realism. I don't think it messes up the game too much, since most people have no idea how to do it anyway, or know how but can't (Like me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
yea Ive done that a ton as skulk <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I certainly didnt until you said.... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
In regards to just jumping around: I know if there was a little alien critter trying to bite my legs off, I'd be jumping around like a mad man. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Short story made long, I know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Short story made long, I know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey! I was ON a server a little while ago playing Eclipse where a marine jumpy/knifed a Onos! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't know if it was you but pretty fancy footwork there cowboy!
On the server I was on I think the had Onos just finished doing a charge into the marine spawn and he was retreating to heal. He certainly didn't expect a bold LA marine to come slish-slashing down the hallway after him. It was like watching a dog chase it's tail when he dicovered and attempted to take out the marine! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe this is the marines version of the Skulk Rush; a low tech, low points method of mayham. 7 marines bounding down the hallway with knife brandished gang-slashing everything they run across! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I didn't mean to make a huge deal out of jumpy/knifing, this thread sort of unraveled into 20+ posts.
I've heard a few interesting positions and I do know bunny hopping (as a way to evade attack) has been a part of FPS since the beginning. However, NS is no simple FPS. It is a TFPS (A part). Teamplay First Person Shooters have different demands when it comes to gameplay and strategy. Most TFPS take the emphasis off the individual and creates the importance of combined arms and (semi on Pubs) coordinated attacks hence the importance of working as a team.
So, the question is whether jumpy/knifing really detracts from teamplay or gameplay. If not, then couldn't it just be considered a last ditch effort from a marine to stay alive. Somebody posted if dog sized monsters with rows upon rows of sharp teeth was trying to bite off their ankles they would be hopping like mad. I liked that and somehow I can't really disagree with that. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So I guess this is where the discussion has evolved;
What do you think of jumpy/knifing and welder kills and would you like to see a stamina bar in future versions? For those who disagree don't just say Stamina Bar sucks, present your case. I can't immediately think of any bad reasons for a stamina bar, although I can't really think of any reason to add one either. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anywho, discuss. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It often does justify walking around with no ranged weapon - if you're somewhere that is likely to be safe, for instance.
Besides, if you have hud_fastswitch off, you can pull out the knife, then highlight your ranged weapon, without selecting it. Thus, when you need to shoot, simply hit fire and it pops out with a very small delay. Unless you're taken totally by surprise, you'll be ok... and if you were taken totally by surprise, chances are you were dead anyway.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hee hee, do you EVER feel safe in NS? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I prefer caution over speed unless I'm JP Scouting. I try not to go anywhere by myself but it does happen from time to time. When I am traveling alone I tend to be very careful, especially if I've got pricy equipment. I find rushing or moving too quickly leaves you vulnerable to skulk ambushes.
It really depends on where I'm going, how far it is and just how urgently do I have to get there but most of the time I concentrate on getting there in one piece rather then quickly.
Welding as a weapon is a great addition to the game. It allows the marines to easily take out structures that are undefended without using 84lb of ammo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO
Thar \Thar\, n. (Zo["o]l.) A goatlike animal (Capra Jemlaica) native of the Himalayas. It has small, flattened horns, curved directly backward. The hair of the neck, shoulders, and chest of the male is very long, reaching to the knees.
I mean, when I play a game I don't want it to be gamelike at all, that is why I play CS, because it is so realistic now that they took bunnyhopping out!
But strafejumping is totally okay, I mean it is in no way related to bunnyhopping. I think if you don't know what strafejumping is, you aren't exactly smart!
Okay... hopefully you may sense the sarcasm in this post, if not, well then know that it is really sarcasm. A bad rendition of it, I know. :(
It is just a game, and this bunnyhopping, strafejumping, whatever the hell you want to call it doesn't imbalance anything. Oh no, skulks might have to hit a moving target!
I guess what I just want to point out that perhaps arguing this little tiny point isn't exactly a good use of time. I actually just realize I could of been playing some sweet sweet NS in the few minutes it took me to process this thread and write a reply.
Damn. :(
Heh, don't worry... hang loose. :)
You guys are complaining about something that doesn't look realistic to you when the marine is made up of a bunch of triangles. I haven't seen a game <b>yet</b> where a marine ended a skulk rush with knifing. Getting knifed is still a mark of shame because it's <i>so easy to avoid</i>. When you can post evidence of the marines winning the game because of jump-knife kills then I might consider it, but most likely I'll tell you to sharpen up your skills against the bot first.
Yummy Marine.
Maybe I'll start banning people for doing that...you may enjoy seeing little 11 year old kids mashing the spacebar in your games, but I don't.