Early Game Vs. Late Game Strength?
LionofSun
Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 44003Members
Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 44003Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Why Marines need to end it fast.</div> It seems to me that the way the game works now is that the marine team is heavily heavily reliant on one of two things:
1) Ending the game early,
OR
2) Incompetant/Stupid Aliens.
2 is a whole nother post in and of itself, this is just for discussion of option one.
To be more specific: It's not so much the ending the game early that matters, but the denial of higher life forms to the aliens. By ending a game early via a shottie rush/quick mutliple hive-lockdown or early seige party the marines take the fight to the aliens before the aliens can get it together and start the extremely difficult to counteract fade/onos/lerk hassament/map control. This seems to be an absolute requirement, or option 2 must be in effect for marine victory. It would seem to me that late-game marine resources just do not have what it takes. While the alien late game will often feature multiple species/upgrades providing incredible synergy, the marine late game by simple virtue of cost must go with either JP or HA, using them together simply doesn't work (unless option 2 is again in effect, or partly in effect). Of course, the fact that there do appear to be some "hard" counters for the marines, and not so much in effect for the aliens ...things get ugly. HA's in groups are the only thing (to my mind) that effectively counter skilled fades, but those same fades can make use of lerk support, skulk bombing (unlikely I'll admit, but it can happen) or simply switching to Onos (Which is in turn theoretically countered by JP. I would question the veracity of this, since in order for that to be effective, the Onos must be present in areas with very high-ceilings and *stay* there long enough for the Jp's to do their thing.)
The closest thing to the sort of multiple alien/upgrade power that the marine tem has is combined arms...but frankly, that doesn't seem so great either. Hmgs and few GL's are the best combination availible. Shotties are nice, but HMG's are better, and Gl's fullfill the "destroy buildings' task better than shotties. The combined arms approach doesn't seem to have the oomph to make up for the marines weaknesses.
Thus I suggest the following things:
1) I believe that the game is most balanced in the interaction between lmg's and skulks. Once shotties come into play, it appears that things shift radically in favour towards the marine team, and as soon as fades/oni apear, things shift radically towards the aliens. Hmg's are beatiful things...but it doesn't seem that even they can stop the power of fades.
-Shotties should be toned down, Hmg's should be boosted.
2) Lerks are potent support, I don't believe enough people use them correctly, but even so, they are amazing.
-Spores should only affect HP, not armor, or there should be an armor upgrade that negates the effects of lerk spores on armor.
3) For the love of god, please don't allow Oni to redeem, it's just cheesy.
-Okay, this isn't so much a suggestion, but BRING BACK PARALYSE!
4) Devour is hell, but a somewhat neccesary one as it makes the onos the hard-counter to HA. When abused against everyone else (as it invariably is) it gets real old, real fast.
- Do something, ANYTHING. Devour is lameness, but we want to keep some semblance of a counter system. Jp's shouldn't be able to be eaten OR some way of avoiding getting eaten as a light should be implemented. Devour harrassment is just lame.
To Talesin: Don't say "Adapt" . There is no further room for adaptation. Alien late-game and individual unit strength > Marines. There is also nothing keeping aliens from working as a team. Thus late game aliens invariably = Aliens > Marines.
If you wan't to lock the thread, fine, but if you do so provide me examples of Marines defeating (reliably, and with roughly average skill levels on both sides) late game and without invoking option 2.
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1) Ending the game early,
OR
2) Incompetant/Stupid Aliens.
2 is a whole nother post in and of itself, this is just for discussion of option one.
To be more specific: It's not so much the ending the game early that matters, but the denial of higher life forms to the aliens. By ending a game early via a shottie rush/quick mutliple hive-lockdown or early seige party the marines take the fight to the aliens before the aliens can get it together and start the extremely difficult to counteract fade/onos/lerk hassament/map control. This seems to be an absolute requirement, or option 2 must be in effect for marine victory. It would seem to me that late-game marine resources just do not have what it takes. While the alien late game will often feature multiple species/upgrades providing incredible synergy, the marine late game by simple virtue of cost must go with either JP or HA, using them together simply doesn't work (unless option 2 is again in effect, or partly in effect). Of course, the fact that there do appear to be some "hard" counters for the marines, and not so much in effect for the aliens ...things get ugly. HA's in groups are the only thing (to my mind) that effectively counter skilled fades, but those same fades can make use of lerk support, skulk bombing (unlikely I'll admit, but it can happen) or simply switching to Onos (Which is in turn theoretically countered by JP. I would question the veracity of this, since in order for that to be effective, the Onos must be present in areas with very high-ceilings and *stay* there long enough for the Jp's to do their thing.)
The closest thing to the sort of multiple alien/upgrade power that the marine tem has is combined arms...but frankly, that doesn't seem so great either. Hmgs and few GL's are the best combination availible. Shotties are nice, but HMG's are better, and Gl's fullfill the "destroy buildings' task better than shotties. The combined arms approach doesn't seem to have the oomph to make up for the marines weaknesses.
Thus I suggest the following things:
1) I believe that the game is most balanced in the interaction between lmg's and skulks. Once shotties come into play, it appears that things shift radically in favour towards the marine team, and as soon as fades/oni apear, things shift radically towards the aliens. Hmg's are beatiful things...but it doesn't seem that even they can stop the power of fades.
-Shotties should be toned down, Hmg's should be boosted.
2) Lerks are potent support, I don't believe enough people use them correctly, but even so, they are amazing.
-Spores should only affect HP, not armor, or there should be an armor upgrade that negates the effects of lerk spores on armor.
3) For the love of god, please don't allow Oni to redeem, it's just cheesy.
-Okay, this isn't so much a suggestion, but BRING BACK PARALYSE!
4) Devour is hell, but a somewhat neccesary one as it makes the onos the hard-counter to HA. When abused against everyone else (as it invariably is) it gets real old, real fast.
- Do something, ANYTHING. Devour is lameness, but we want to keep some semblance of a counter system. Jp's shouldn't be able to be eaten OR some way of avoiding getting eaten as a light should be implemented. Devour harrassment is just lame.
To Talesin: Don't say "Adapt" . There is no further room for adaptation. Alien late-game and individual unit strength > Marines. There is also nothing keeping aliens from working as a team. Thus late game aliens invariably = Aliens > Marines.
If you wan't to lock the thread, fine, but if you do so provide me examples of Marines defeating (reliably, and with roughly average skill levels on both sides) late game and without invoking option 2.
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Comments
4 lvl3 shotties > fade.
Any HA > lerk.
None of those lifeforms are the problem in the late game. Personally, and this is also after talking with Pithlit a bit, I think the problem is that each higher lifeform is evenly matched against the marines....but upgraded skulks shift the delicate balance in the favor of the aliens. A group of marines can handle a single high lifeform, or even 2...but throw in a bunch of skulks with (free) upgrades, and that's a whole lot more teeth coming at you. In the words of Pithlit (quotiing from memory here, also trying to piece together a single block of text from a convo on IRC)
<!--QuoteBegin-kinda Pith+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kinda Pith)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game was balanced in 3b5, balanced for good fades and skulks that sometimes or rarely got upgrades. Now that skulks get upgrades all the time, and these upgrades are the ones that help skulks the most (MC/SC), the entire midgame balance has shifted from being shotties vs. fades/lerks/cannonfodder to being shotties vs. fades/lerks/good skulks. The aliens win out in the second scenario, every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I comm'ed a 55 minute game today and we had two hive lockdowns most of the game.
We tried shottie rushes, 3-4 siege attempts, heavy armor+welders+teamwork.... it just gets to be to much to keep all the res and constantly med\getting stuff for your rines
by that time the aliens are working well together and getting higher lifeforms then its all she wrote.
I hope they do something to help marines midgame next version.
I think this calls for a funny comment
[Witty] Learn to adapt *locked* [/witty]
And to think, marines just gained 5 extra armor, meaning 1) it was as bad or worse than it was now, and 2) problem not solved. I'm leaning towards what Duo said.
in all honesty, a two hive lock game should never reach the 55 minute mark. either the aliens were superb, or something was very wrong with your strategy (in my view, anyway).
I'm not trying to flame you, I mean the strategy of the team, etc. I'm assuming it was a pub so you likely had trouble coordinating.. that, too, should be expected.
but yes, a two hive lock will result in constant alert messages as the aliens attempt resource denial, harassment tactics, and eventually try to break one of the hives. they'll hit it a lot harder and much more consistently as they essentially must have that hive.
a two hive lock is not the norm, so I wouldn't really consider it an example of difficult map control. (just my opinion)
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93152' target='_blank'>here</a> , <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93164' target='_blank'>here</a> , <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93515' target='_blank'>here</a> , & <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=5' target='_blank'>here</a>
All these ideas or geard towards mid game balance, and adress a few other issues as well. Since the general consences is the marines need a boost
Marines need to end it fast because... onos rushes come later on. One onos is usually not enough to overpower a base late in the game, but more than 3 and it's finsihed... unless the marines have heavy armor and heavy machine guns..
not true. hmgs are powerful enough when a lot of people use em (im talking 5-6 HA train) and shotties kill skulks fades and lerks with 1 or 2 hits
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For the love of god, please don't allow Oni to redeem, it's just cheesy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its what gives aliens a chance against HA rushes when aliens are low on res
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spores should only affect HP, not armor, or there should be an armor upgrade that negates the effects of lerk spores on armor<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that upgrade does exist. its called heavy armor
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do something, ANYTHING. Devour is lameness, but we want to keep some semblance of a counter system. Jp's shouldn't be able to be eaten OR some way of avoiding getting eaten as a light should be implemented. Devour harrassment is just lame. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but JPs alreayd cant be stomped, so that would make JPs even more of a nightmare to an onos then they already are. if you are a JP then stay away onos (like im sure you are)
late game usually depends on who has more res, if rines can keep the HA/JP +HMG/shotty coming, then they win, if aliens have control of the map, they win.
4 lvl3 shotties > fade.
Any HA > lerk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree with this if it were just one alien lifeform; however, this is rarely the case.
Four lvl3 HMGs can get horribly raped by an Onos with adren or by a MC and two skulks. They can even get horribly raped if they have HAs.
Four shotties can easily take down a fade ... but with one lerk and DCchamber/hive/gorge support he will be able to take out those marines very fast.
Yes, any HA always poons a lerk (if it attacks, it should be shooting umbra)
Quite simply, the original post was well put. The Marines must contain the alien expansion. If they don't they lose later on in the game even if they are bringing in the same amount of resources; however, there is a counter to every alien ability. There is no counter against a skilled alien team.
Even with free alien upgrades, marines are still top notch early game. Commanders have to try and take advantage of this ASAP before the aliens do.
To wrap it up, yeah, I still agree with you.
There's no logical argument here besides a list of the obvious points. Every alien lifeform has a huge advantage when they can pick the fight. Skulks will ambush or only attack when you're reloading or building. Fades will refuse to fight in long hallways. Lerks will gas from a long distance. Etc. If you instead take the fight to them by attacking their res or pushing close to their hive they'll have to take risks and fight you when <b>you</b> have the advantage. This is the best way of killing good fades.
Further, if you take down their res they won't have the ability to go for higher lifeforms, or if they do, they'll be extremely cautious because once they die they'll not be able to reevolve for a while.
One other tactic I find works well is to punish those alien players that try to contribute to the team. If you're in a room with 2 skulks a lerk and a gorge, make sure that you kill the gorge at all costs. Medspam until he is dead. If a player gorges and then dies immediately, they're less likely to gorge again because they think they'll just die again.
Finally, a big mistake is what you consider late game. Early game is before aliens have a chance at fades and dropping their second hive. It would be a stretch to extend this period beyond 5 minutes. Late game is the period after the second hive has been completed or destroyed where one team is trying to end the game. That makes mid game the 3 minutes between when the second hive has been dropped and when it has been completed (or when it should have been dropped and when it should have been completed).
Get your enemy when they're weak...half of skill is getting in the right place at the right time
Wanna know a good strategy against the khaara past 30 minutes in the game? If the marines still have some areas of the map under their control then it's rather easy actually...rush one hive, move forward steadily and determined...if the hiverush fails, immediately move towards another hive...if it fails, attack the third hive or try taking the first hive again...depends on the number of their hives...in most cases it's a **** for the khaara to always be forced to run around the map trying to respond to the random attacks at their hives...if they ain't fast enough, they lose a hive...even fades and oni are of no use if they are forced to run between hives, defending them all the time...
Shotgun/LMG mix work fine in this situation, cause of the low costs needed...if the rines are able to stay alive long enough, the comm might save up enough res for HA's/HMG's...and once they are in place and the rines keep up the random attacks on the hives, the aliens will be toast if they fall behind too much...
Marines can fail for a variety of reasons when agaisnt two hives.
As somone pointed out you have to be threatening the aliens at ALL times. Camping the one hive you do hold is not an option. This is because aliens will then have time to kill your rts. This sort of game is won on reources, if you can keep theirs down and keep a few of your up through the method above then you will be able to afford those HA and jps.
If marines don't have the teamwork, and aliens do then you won't make it.
Keeping the pressure on is vital.
Shotgun sniper range should be non-existent. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Adapt. Press f4 and observe. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i fail to see how a 30-res unit that can be countered by a 10-res unit is unbalanced. especially if its a bitebite combat lerk.
When aliens play as a team, Marines lose 90% of the times.
Kolokol: You start off by completely ignoring both what I have already said on the JP/HA issue, and then you begin to argue *in my favour* by going on with your "keep the pressure angle"
Fatal Error: You prove my point for me: By employing high-tech against low-level life forms is the real way marines win. It may seem cheesy when your getting camped by some HMG'er, but the commander has sent him there specifically to avoid what happens late game: Getting "camped" only in your base, by fades oni and lerk support.
Two things:
1) Reload: Hmgs have a LONG reload time. I've solo killed hmg heavies (well nub ones) as a skulk by letting them empty their hmg clip and then attacking them.
2) Leap: If they have hmgs and you DON'T have leap, you probably deserve to die.
3) Backup: If you don't have any fades to kill the hmger, or even a lerk to gas him, you also deserve to die.
Early game marines are strongest (range, no leap, no silence). Once fades show up, aliens have a big advantage. One grandmaster fade = gg. If marines can get enough res and tear down enough alien res early game, they stand a chance against a fade - lots of shotties, upgrades, they can attack. If marines can keep the aliens to one hive (could be by rushes not by lockdown), then the fade can only do so much (he has to run back to the hive after every battle).
The trick to killing fades is to trap them - either literally block them in doors, or have marines waiting to catch them as they exit. One lmg clip will kill a fade at any upgrade level (note: you're never going to get all 50 bullets into him) - that means that if 4 marines can keep him from escaping long enough, he's toast.
Different scenerio: 2nd hive not up yet 8 minutes in? Don't worry aliens still have the advantage. Lost all but one node? Don't worry aliens because you still have the advantage.
Different scenerio: Wow amazing you some how lost your second hive but not without a big fight! Guess what you'll still hold out for another 5-10 minutes easily.
All in all Final 3.0 blows. I am going to say proudly that Beta 5 was by far the most balanced version I have ever played pub/competativly.
It's not all really a serious issue in "balance" with the current NS but more of what happens in general public style of play. Lame tactics and serious exploits are ruining the feel for NS classic and combat mode is just pointless DM that brings more lamers.
Can't agree on the early game part. Skulks are still a joke. Lerks' are a different story, but maybe you counted the early lerks as early part of the game and stuff <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That usually solves MANY things.
If all else fails, structure block that Onos or Fade if your mariens are too inept.
I mean, even the small things like saying which aliens are where, matters tons...