these are already mentioned, but i must reiterate them for emphasis
1. vents: please for the love of god don't make vents that point directly at the hive. you have 2 (TWO!) of these in sava.
2. LONG hallways next to marine start. Why? lerks can gas with imputiny down these long hallways, and retreating ANYTHING gets shot to pieces goign down that hallway even at full health. you need to make some more winding paths to and from marine start.
other than those 2 issues, the rest of the map plays and looks fine. however, since those 2 issues are so damning, sava ended up being one of my most hated maps in 3.0. (unless i happen to be in the mood for camping vents with nano armor)
I'm bumping this because I have made two changes in the map.
I changed one of the routes (really noticeable in the layout). <a href='http://img46.echo.cx/my.php?image=sava31layout0tq.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img46.echo.cx/img46/6307/sava31layout0tq.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
And, I changed the vents in the hive. <a href='http://img46.echo.cx/my.php?image=sava31vents5eh.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img46.echo.cx/img46/7569/sava31vents5eh.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
Move the vents but leave them in the hive and also make the vent (with the doorway and slope entrance by the side) have another exit that leads into the area at the top of the ramp.
I find too many rines spawn camp this area and a vent would be nice. Maybe a vent with steam so its hard to see the alien would be nice.
My main gripe is that the vent on the right side of the map (see the layout pic) takes too long for Aliens to run round to attack the Marines in that corridor from behind.
Also, taking out the section of corridor in the middle of the map could lead to Marines getting blocked in the MS. The Aliens will coming back to reinforce the attack will choose to travel via one of two routes (not three) and so they will be more heavily concentrated which will lead to easy suppression of a breakout attempt.
I'm somewhat ambivalent about the vents in sava. I prefer short vents between rooms allowing the aliens to cover the map quickly. Long vents are alien death when jetpackers are on the map. I would move the long vents that go outside the map to shorter individual vents that connect adjacent rooms. This will allow aliens to cover the map quickly and effectively discourage marine jpers camping in vents. Also, it will mean jp'ers will have to pass through rooms on the way to the hive giving non-fade lifeforms a chance at some munching. This also brings webs into play. It balances out as the same applies to vent using aliens and floor bound marines.
The vents are too low for lerks. Can they be made higher ? At the moment, as a lerk, you can't just fly through the vents at speed as you keep touching down on the vent floor.
Are the "flanges" in the vents to prevent skulks wall running ? I would remove these too.
At the start of the game, if a handful of marines can get in the corridor to the front right of the hive and camp, it can equal instant death to aliens on pubs. Getting round the back of them is problematical because of the large room behind them. I would put a little vent into this corridor to at least give the aliens a chance to de-peg the tents.
Now that's out the way, the things I like about sava:
I love the semi-transparent central pillars in some of the rooms. These are great fun on one on ones.
The little semi-circular lerky perchies in the "longest" route room are great since marines rarely check them ! Also, the comment about that room not being used much is not quite true. They are a favourite for jp'ers to sneak round to the hive via the double vent entrance.
That central area is very cramped and can get pretty furious.
All in all, its a much better map than the previous version. (To be frank, in my experience, sava used to be a bit of a server emptier. Now, it's up there with the popular co_ maps).
Make the vents tall enough for a fade to stand up in. You can kill a fade every time by doing a certain dodging technique in the vents, if fades could stand up it would negate that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+May 9 2005, 01:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ May 9 2005, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My main gripe is that the vent on the right side of the map (see the layout pic) takes too long for Aliens to run round to attack the Marines in that corridor from behind.
Also, taking out the section of corridor in the middle of the map could lead to Marines getting blocked in the MS. The Aliens will coming back to reinforce the attack will choose to travel via one of two routes (not three) and so they will be more heavily concentrated which will lead to easy suppression of a breakout attempt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say I'm sorry for bumping this, but I'd be a terrible liar.
The PTs didn't notice anything like this... but yeah, it could definitely happen... I'm very interested in making the map the best it can be... anyways, one of the routes is more marine friendly than the other, so I don't know...
As for the vents, well, I may make another exit on the left path (looking the overview) but that's about it, they don't have anything other than 90º turns just so I can keep the texture alignment in good conditions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They seem really long because... well... the map is pretty big, I tried to keep a reasonable amount of turns... I don't plan on changing the "architecture" of the vents...
<!--QuoteBegin-Creepie+May 9 2005, 03:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Creepie @ May 9 2005, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the "flanges" in the vents to prevent skulks wall running ? I would remove these too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They don't prevent wallrunning at all, they did in the first version of the map (before it went official), but after that I added clip brushes so you could wallrun with no problems...
The comment about having vents (at least some) that are high enough for Lerk flight would be nice.
The problem with the long vents from the Hive is twofold:
Aliens are 'away from the game' longer, not having a chance to gauge Marine progress towards the Hive. If they got out of the vents earlier they would be able to backtrack and lie in wait.
The vent exits are fine position-wise, both close enough to the Hive to flank Marines, but it takes too long to get there, so the reinforcements from behind and infront of the Marines is disproportionate making it easier for the Marines to concentrate fire forwards, taking up a more advanced position because they don't have to watch the vent exit.
The only solution I can see to this is to give the vents some diagonals.
I've also just started the Vents section of my Mapping Guidelines in the <i>Competitive Discussion</i> forum which might offer some food for thought.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+May 21 2005, 05:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ May 21 2005, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+May 9 2005, 01:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ May 9 2005, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My main gripe is that the vent on the right side of the map (see the layout pic) takes too long for Aliens to run round to attack the Marines in that corridor from behind.
Also, taking out the section of corridor in the middle of the map could lead to Marines getting blocked in the MS. The Aliens will coming back to reinforce the attack will choose to travel via one of two routes (not three) and so they will be more heavily concentrated which will lead to easy suppression of a breakout attempt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say I'm sorry for bumping this, but I'd be a terrible liar.
The PTs didn't notice anything like this... but yeah, it could definitely happen... I'm very interested in making the map the best it can be... anyways, one of the routes is more marine friendly than the other, so I don't know...
As for the vents, well, I may make another exit on the left path (looking the overview) but that's about it, they don't have anything other than 90º turns just so I can keep the texture alignment in good conditions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They seem really long because... well... the map is pretty big, I tried to keep a reasonable amount of turns... I don't plan on changing the "architecture" of the vents...
<!--QuoteBegin-Creepie+May 9 2005, 03:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Creepie @ May 9 2005, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the "flanges" in the vents to prevent skulks wall running ? I would remove these too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They don't prevent wallrunning at all, they did in the first version of the map (before it went official), but after that I added clip brushes so you could wallrun with no problems...
Thanks everyone for the feedback, btw. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> have they been made taller? trying to lerk in those vents is a nightmare.
I really enjoy co_sava as a combat map, but I certainly have suggestions.
Attached is a layout that I reworked based on your picture above. I just copied and pasted different sections in different places where I thought they might be more useful.
To address someone's comment about the central area with the crates as being kind of cramped for a central combat location, I suggest moving very large side room to the center, making it more a central combat location where lots of big central battles can go on, kinda like the cargo bay in co_ulysses. I added more entrances to the room at each of the four corners to make it more central and to make it more exciting.
To address someone else's comment about the usefulness of your vents, I reworked the vent system so that it connects between useful areas of the map without using very long vents that waste time.
Some problems with this suggested layout might be that I moved the area with the ladders and crates to the very left of the map. You might want to squeeze it closer to the large central area by changing the orientation of the very southwest hallway leading from marine start. The way I have it might make this second path less useful because it takes longer to get to the hive, but I don't know, you'd have to playtest it.
So, for the aliens i basically made it more interconnected and more time conserving and for the overall gameplay I made a large central area for more battles.
I hope you like it and maybe you'll use some of my suggestions.
BTW, those square sections in the vents are for aliens to pass each other if there are more than one going different directions.
I've spent the last half hour thinking about how I could improve the previous layout and I've come up with a revision.
I've changed the position of marine start so that the left pathway is a more attractive route to take while keeping the large open area as a center room for large battles with many entrances and exits. I tried to keep the vents untouched but I had to remove a few that were very close to marine start and probably would offer too much of an advantage for skulks early on in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+May 21 2005, 10:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ May 21 2005, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How tall in hammer units should they be? and I assume the long ones should have the taller vents... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I would say if they were 5 units taller it would be easier on the lerk and fade without giving the marines any massive advantage in them.
Just go lerk and try to fly through the vent in testing. If you bang against the cieling of the vent and get knocked into the floor stopping you instantly, then it isn't tall enough yet.
however, there's some problems with the exits, in my mind.
On that overview -- the left vent leaving the hive. Those exit facing the direction, and in direct view, of the direction the marines are coming. If there's marines out there.. you can't really leave the vent without them noticing, and the only way to get out of the vent is to make a long run alllllll the way back to the hive. I would suggest an alternate exit, perhaps in the ceiling somewhere of the room between the current exits and the hive.
The right vent. The exit furthest towards the marine start, a marine standing on the far other side of the room it faces can pistol a skulk all the way at the back of the turn, currently. That means that if you peek out to parasite, you can get waxed pretty easily if there's a marine standing over there, even as a wallstrafin' celerity skulk. Not a huge issue though.
The right path leaving marine base is VERY long and straight.. can shoot an onos from a mile away, reload, and shoot again before it'd ever reach you. I guess that's kinda intentional, but it only leaves one path for an onos to take.. and that path currently has issues with stickiness and death.
There's a lack of vents once you leave the hive.. well, that's true on many combat maps, however Sava IS quite large, and as it lacks one big central room for all the fighting.. I dunno. I always thought that a vent leading from the water room on the far left of that overview, from that alcove at the ceiling, to one of the rooms directly across from it somewhere.. or a nice L-vent from there to the corner leading to the room directly before the hall leading into the hive on that side.. would go well to allowing aliens, especially early-game skulks, to be able to flank the marines.
Oh, and the one vent outside-ish of the marine hive.. if it'd be possible to make that one a bit bigger. As it stands, if you're headin to the left marine exit and a bunch pop out and you get in that vent to hide.. either they can see you, or the marines on the other side can see you, pretty much ;\ just a bit longer, or higher up, should fix that. could raise it so 'rines on the other side could still put a mine over it, but... make them have to jump to do it, it's kinda low and in-the-open right now.
It's definately better than the last one, though.
Smaller-ish games it's not too bad.. 6v6, say. The alien speed advantage actually kinda works out here, since you'll probably be able to make the long run-around and flank any sizeable marine force moving to the hive. Bigger games.. it's a problem. 12v12 or bigger and, well, it's hard to break through, since the marines can basically send two bulldozers towards your hive and you've no choice but to either charge into the front of them or wait until they're pretty much right at the hive to ambush them.
That's really the big problem I see. Sure, JP's in the hive vents is bad.. but every time I play the map it seems, the marines wind up getting JP before the aliens can really counter them with anything.. which is a result of few means for aliens to sandwich a marine force moving towards the hive. When you've only got to watch your front, it's not too hard to stop skulks from ambushing you.. it's just not a 'scary' map to play as marines, since it's not something you really have to worry about.
Brightness-wise, I'd actually say you could darken it up some. New alien flashlight is clutch, and ignoring people who crank up the gamma, a pretty easy way to make a marine-biased map more even is to darken it.. and man, any time I try to crank my gamma up too high I always get blinded, or have to turn the contrast down, which'd still mean aliens would be better off eh? <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-liquidscript+May 21 2005, 11:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (liquidscript @ May 21 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've spent the last half hour thinking about how I could improve the previous layout and I've come up with a revision.
I've changed the position of marine start so that the left pathway is a more attractive route to take while keeping the large open area as a center room for large battles with many entrances and exits. I tried to keep the vents untouched but I had to remove a few that were very close to marine start and probably would offer too much of an advantage for skulks early on in the game.
I hope you like this one too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for the effort.
While moving the large water room has been a suggestion that I've heard for a long while, it's not easy to implement since the level difference between the entrance and the exit is pretty high (it was done originally to bypass the whole central area (it was added in a internal version), and therefore I can't easily connect it that way.
Also, there may be r_speeds problems with that layout, but I appreciate the effort.
I'll try to make the vents more useful in the current map, any other complaints about the "new" layout (only two ways instead of three)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, for the aliens i basically made it more interconnected and more time conserving and for the overall gameplay I made a large central area for more battles.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> liquidscript's vent remapping is what I was getting at too.
Mendasp, these aren't complaints. We like your map. That's why we're taking time to give feedback. We certainly appreciate your efforts in making the map and taking your time to listen to and respond to our feedback.
<!--QuoteBegin-Creepie+May 23 2005, 07:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Creepie @ May 23 2005, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Mendasp, these aren't complaints. We like your map. That's why we're taking time to give feedback. We certainly appreciate your efforts in making the map and taking your time to listen to and respond to our feedback. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I said complaints for some reason, but I meant comments. IRC is evil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-odaeyss+May 22 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (odaeyss @ May 22 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lots of feedback<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Best first post ever. Thanks!
Edit: I'm going to come up with some more vents and post it later.
Also, only Crispy has commented on the "new" routes, I'm not sure if I should keep it... I think I'll end up reverting to the old (current version) one...
Edit2: How's this? (Will do something about the cargo room in terms of line of sight, too)
Having gotten to play the build that these changes are based on (the one with the removed path that forces marines to go through Water Treatment if they go out the left MS door), I have to say I'm very intrigued by that second potential vent layout you proposed (this one: <a href='http://img270.echo.cx/my.php?image=savavents21zd.jpg)' target='_blank'>http://img270.echo.cx/my.php?image=savavents21zd.jpg)</a>. I like how it breaks up those vents a bit (as-is they are extremely long) but it still keeps them functional (and in a couple of spots, makes them better, by giving you a faster way to get behind camping marines).
And since you asked, I would absolutely keep the change you made to the layout. I think Water Treatment is one of the best rooms in the map, in terms of aesthetics and in terms of gameplay, and by making that the only option when you exit the left MS door, it finally makes the room get the level of traffic that it deserves.
I prefer the first layout to the second, but there are still many vents that I don't like the look of. Perhaps you just put every possible vent on the map and were hoping for help on deciding which are a good idea and which not. If that's the case I think I'll start (clockwise):
The left Hive exit is better with an offshoot into theat Hive camp room. I like the idea that it would be behind the red crate so that coming from MS you won't be able to see Aliens pop out. I also think that this should be the only vent exit to that room. It should only take one alternative entry point to even it out, and I think if you find out how much time has been cut with the diagonal this will justify my opinion.
I don't like the top-right vent that exits looking into the Hive room for two main reasons: - That room has a very low ceiling and if the vent exited from the wall, Marines could easily boost eachother in to camp it and effectively nullify the benefits of an alternative route. - Only a suicidal Marine would stand anywhere near that vent exit, so if it was added to the map, Marines would simply take up a less advanced position, allowing them to camp the whole of that corridor and the existing vent exits in the bigger room further down. Aliens won't be able to pop out there and will have to run even further down the vent before they can successfully flank the 'rines.
I like the bottom-right vent changes for reasons previously given in this thread.
The bottom-left vent probably isn't neccessary, but would bring more people to the room on the west side of the map. As I said, it probably isn't neccessary but if you want to try it out, make it connect to the white section (if you decide to keep it), not the central corridor. That white section is basically a camp spot for the Marines as they can tkae out Lerks in the vent, anything coming through the middle corridor and cover the corridor leading to MS. A vent in there would keep those campers on their toes!
The central vents are overkill imo. The central corridor already has 3 main exits and 1 vent exit. You're suggesting to up that to 3 main exits and 3 vent exits. I'd keep the left-right vent but lose the top-down vents because the central room plays a special role in the map. This middle section and the two rooms it connects to Hiveside are where the Oni and Fade have to plug the gap. The smaller lifeforms only get kills here if they join the party late (once the Fades/Oni have taken the gunfire) or if they are lurking/cloaked. If you put those vents in it'll bias it too much for Aliens and take away that challenge and gameplay element.
P.S. I had to write this out twice because the internet cafe had a power cut <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gay Parrot of Doom+May 29 2005, 04:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gay Parrot of Doom @ May 29 2005, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd quite like to see the ready room a bit less cluttered.
I'd also quite like to see the railings at the bottom of the horribly long corridor removed.
Also, a lerk perch or two would be funky. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are plentiful Lerk perches throughout the map (see layout posted in this thread) such as: the 'glass bottles' at the Hive vent double exit; the rooftop arches in the same room; the little vent connecting the first set of left and right rooms immediately outside MS; the vent at the end of the long straight from the righthand MS exit that also looks into the middle chokepoint; the vent exit behind the red crate in the long central corridor; the vent exits by the big crates in the room at the bottom of the rampside Hive exit; the two vent exits in the Hive (although these might be covered in the next version*); and... well that's pretty much the lot!
They're all in locations of strategical value from where Umbra and Sporespams can work to great effect.
* Note to Mendasp: Maybe leave the Vent facing the ramped Hive exit and cover the other one, or alternatively just shorten it and raise the ceiling so that you can fly/proleap in easily and so that Fades can hit the JP Hivecamper for one swipe before he can make his escape. Currently he sees the problem coming too early and can gun down the smaller lifeforms or zip down the vent if its a Fade.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+May 30 2005, 10:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ May 30 2005, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * Note to Mendasp: Maybe leave the Vent facing the ramped Hive exit and cover the other one, or alternatively just shorten it and raise the ceiling so that you can fly/proleap in easily and so that Fades can hit the JP Hivecamper for one swipe before he can make his escape. Currently he sees the problem coming too early and can gun down the smaller lifeforms or zip down the vent if its a Fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This vent talk is getting very confusing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Which one is "the other one"? Both vents in the hive have cover now (hasn't changed from the pic I showed in this same thread), but I'm not sure what you mean.
You're helping a lot, I can't thank you enough for this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+May 30 2005, 09:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ May 30 2005, 09:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+May 30 2005, 10:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ May 30 2005, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> * Note to Mendasp: Maybe leave the Vent facing the ramped Hive exit and cover the other one, or alternatively just shorten it and raise the ceiling so that you can fly/proleap in easily and so that Fades can hit the JP Hivecamper for one swipe before he can make his escape. Currently he sees the problem coming too early and can gun down the smaller lifeforms or zip down the vent if its a Fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This vent talk is getting very confusing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Which one is "the other one"? Both vents in the hive have cover now (hasn't changed from the pic I showed in this same thread), but I'm not sure what you mean.
You're helping a lot, I can't thank you enough for this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been rethinking my suggestion, so just igore what I said before and read this:
As you look at your layout (with the Hive at the top) the <span style='color:orange'>left vent exit</span> looks directly onto the right Hive exit. I think that Lerks should still be able to sit in this vent to spore/umbraspam any Marines that want to camp from that doorway.
<span style='color:orange'>The right vent exit</span> should either: - be covered <i>à la Hera</i>, =OR= - be shortened to give the vent camper less time to react to a celer skulk/lerk/fade who runs/flies/blinks into the vent to eliminate the threat to the Hive, =AND/OR= - have its ceiling raised such that a Lerk can dive in and Skulks can leap in but Marines cannot stand.
Covering the right vent exit and leaving the left uncovered would push more JPs through the left vent and probably push more traffic (and therefore more conflict) down the left side of the map.
Leaving both uncovered but changing something about the right vent would leave gameplay roughly the same but give the Aliens a chance of fighting back.
Yeah but I know just as well as you that CTRL+'Brushes 1,2,3' - delete = no more vent cover. It's not that difficult to change! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I still think that you can leave the left one uncovered because Aliens can flank through the new, closer vent exit south of the Hive. The thing is, imo covering both the vents will nerf JPs a bit too much. They won't be that great for attacking the Hive because there's not really that much space to fly around.
And yes, vents are a bit bigger so lerks can fly now, I also removed the railings on the Aux Monitoring room and moved a crate up to the platforms in the cargo room so the marines didn't have that massive line of sight.
Comments
1. vents: please for the love of god don't make vents that point directly at the hive. you have 2 (TWO!) of these in sava.
2. LONG hallways next to marine start. Why? lerks can gas with imputiny down these long hallways, and retreating ANYTHING gets shot to pieces goign down that hallway even at full health. you need to make some more winding paths to and from marine start.
other than those 2 issues, the rest of the map plays and looks fine. however, since those 2 issues are so damning, sava ended up being one of my most hated maps in 3.0. (unless i happen to be in the mood for camping vents with nano armor)
I changed one of the routes (really noticeable in the layout).
<a href='http://img46.echo.cx/my.php?image=sava31layout0tq.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img46.echo.cx/img46/6307/sava31layout0tq.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
And, I changed the vents in the hive.
<a href='http://img46.echo.cx/my.php?image=sava31vents5eh.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img46.echo.cx/img46/7569/sava31vents5eh.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
Opinions?
Move the vents but leave them in the hive and also make the vent (with the doorway and slope entrance by the side) have another exit that leads into the area at the top of the ramp.
I find too many rines spawn camp this area and a vent would be nice. Maybe a vent with steam so its hard to see the alien would be nice.
Also, taking out the section of corridor in the middle of the map could lead to Marines getting blocked in the MS. The Aliens will coming back to reinforce the attack will choose to travel via one of two routes (not three) and so they will be more heavily concentrated which will lead to easy suppression of a breakout attempt.
The vents are too low for lerks. Can they be made higher ? At the moment, as a lerk, you can't just fly through the vents at speed as you keep touching down on the vent floor.
Are the "flanges" in the vents to prevent skulks wall running ? I would remove these too.
At the start of the game, if a handful of marines can get in the corridor to the front right of the hive and camp, it can equal instant death to aliens on pubs. Getting round the back of them is problematical because of the large room behind them. I would put a little vent into this corridor to at least give the aliens a chance to de-peg the tents.
Now that's out the way, the things I like about sava:
I love the semi-transparent central pillars in some of the rooms. These are great fun on one on ones.
The little semi-circular lerky perchies in the "longest" route room are great since marines rarely check them ! Also, the comment about that room not being used much is not quite true. They are a favourite for jp'ers to sneak round to the hive via the double vent entrance.
That central area is very cramped and can get pretty furious.
All in all, its a much better map than the previous version. (To be frank, in my experience, sava used to be a bit of a server emptier. Now, it's up there with the popular co_ maps).
Good work.
You can kill a fade every time by doing a certain dodging technique in the vents, if fades could stand up it would negate that.
Also, taking out the section of corridor in the middle of the map could lead to Marines getting blocked in the MS. The Aliens will coming back to reinforce the attack will choose to travel via one of two routes (not three) and so they will be more heavily concentrated which will lead to easy suppression of a breakout attempt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say I'm sorry for bumping this, but I'd be a terrible liar.
The PTs didn't notice anything like this... but yeah, it could definitely happen... I'm very interested in making the map the best it can be... anyways, one of the routes is more marine friendly than the other, so I don't know...
As for the vents, well, I may make another exit on the left path (looking the overview) but that's about it, they don't have anything other than 90º turns just so I can keep the texture alignment in good conditions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They seem really long because... well... the map is pretty big, I tried to keep a reasonable amount of turns... I don't plan on changing the "architecture" of the vents...
<!--QuoteBegin-Creepie+May 9 2005, 03:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Creepie @ May 9 2005, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the "flanges" in the vents to prevent skulks wall running ? I would remove these too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't prevent wallrunning at all, they did in the first version of the map (before it went official), but after that I added clip brushes so you could wallrun with no problems...
Thanks everyone for the feedback, btw.
The problem with the long vents from the Hive is twofold:
Aliens are 'away from the game' longer, not having a chance to gauge Marine progress towards the Hive. If they got out of the vents earlier they would be able to backtrack and lie in wait.
The vent exits are fine position-wise, both close enough to the Hive to flank Marines, but it takes too long to get there, so the reinforcements from behind and infront of the Marines is disproportionate making it easier for the Marines to concentrate fire forwards, taking up a more advanced position because they don't have to watch the vent exit.
The only solution I can see to this is to give the vents some diagonals.
I've also just started the Vents section of my Mapping Guidelines in the <i>Competitive Discussion</i> forum which might offer some food for thought.
Also, taking out the section of corridor in the middle of the map could lead to Marines getting blocked in the MS. The Aliens will coming back to reinforce the attack will choose to travel via one of two routes (not three) and so they will be more heavily concentrated which will lead to easy suppression of a breakout attempt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say I'm sorry for bumping this, but I'd be a terrible liar.
The PTs didn't notice anything like this... but yeah, it could definitely happen... I'm very interested in making the map the best it can be... anyways, one of the routes is more marine friendly than the other, so I don't know...
As for the vents, well, I may make another exit on the left path (looking the overview) but that's about it, they don't have anything other than 90º turns just so I can keep the texture alignment in good conditions <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
They seem really long because... well... the map is pretty big, I tried to keep a reasonable amount of turns... I don't plan on changing the "architecture" of the vents...
<!--QuoteBegin-Creepie+May 9 2005, 03:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Creepie @ May 9 2005, 03:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are the "flanges" in the vents to prevent skulks wall running ? I would remove these too.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't prevent wallrunning at all, they did in the first version of the map (before it went official), but after that I added clip brushes so you could wallrun with no problems...
Thanks everyone for the feedback, btw. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
have they been made taller? trying to lerk in those vents is a nightmare.
I really enjoy co_sava as a combat map, but I certainly have suggestions.
Attached is a layout that I reworked based on your picture above. I just copied and pasted different sections in different places where I thought they might be more useful.
To address someone's comment about the central area with the crates as being kind of cramped for a central combat location, I suggest moving very large side room to the center, making it more a central combat location where lots of big central battles can go on, kinda like the cargo bay in co_ulysses. I added more entrances to the room at each of the four corners to make it more central and to make it more exciting.
To address someone else's comment about the usefulness of your vents, I reworked the vent system so that it connects between useful areas of the map without using very long vents that waste time.
Some problems with this suggested layout might be that I moved the area with the ladders and crates to the very left of the map. You might want to squeeze it closer to the large central area by changing the orientation of the very southwest hallway leading from marine start. The way I have it might make this second path less useful because it takes longer to get to the hive, but I don't know, you'd have to playtest it.
So, for the aliens i basically made it more interconnected and more time conserving and for the overall gameplay I made a large central area for more battles.
I hope you like it and maybe you'll use some of my suggestions.
BTW, those square sections in the vents are for aliens to pass each other if there are more than one going different directions.
I've changed the position of marine start so that the left pathway is a more attractive route to take while keeping the large open area as a center room for large battles with many entrances and exits. I tried to keep the vents untouched but I had to remove a few that were very close to marine start and probably would offer too much of an advantage for skulks early on in the game.
I hope you like this one too.
I would say if they were 5 units taller it would be easier on the lerk and fade without giving the marines any massive advantage in them.
Just go lerk and try to fly through the vent in testing. If you bang against the cieling of the vent and get knocked into the floor stopping you instantly, then it isn't tall enough yet.
They're very long, but.. it IS a large map.
however, there's some problems with the exits, in my mind.
On that overview -- the left vent leaving the hive. Those exit facing the direction, and in direct view, of the direction the marines are coming. If there's marines out there.. you can't really leave the vent without them noticing, and the only way to get out of the vent is to make a long run alllllll the way back to the hive. I would suggest an alternate exit, perhaps in the ceiling somewhere of the room between the current exits and the hive.
The right vent. The exit furthest towards the marine start, a marine standing on the far other side of the room it faces can pistol a skulk all the way at the back of the turn, currently. That means that if you peek out to parasite, you can get waxed pretty easily if there's a marine standing over there, even as a wallstrafin' celerity skulk. Not a huge issue though.
The right path leaving marine base is VERY long and straight.. can shoot an onos from a mile away, reload, and shoot again before it'd ever reach you. I guess that's kinda intentional, but it only leaves one path for an onos to take.. and that path currently has issues with stickiness and death.
There's a lack of vents once you leave the hive.. well, that's true on many combat maps, however Sava IS quite large, and as it lacks one big central room for all the fighting.. I dunno. I always thought that a vent leading from the water room on the far left of that overview, from that alcove at the ceiling, to one of the rooms directly across from it somewhere.. or a nice L-vent from there to the corner leading to the room directly before the hall leading into the hive on that side.. would go well to allowing aliens, especially early-game skulks, to be able to flank the marines.
Oh, and the one vent outside-ish of the marine hive.. if it'd be possible to make that one a bit bigger. As it stands, if you're headin to the left marine exit and a bunch pop out and you get in that vent to hide.. either they can see you, or the marines on the other side can see you, pretty much ;\ just a bit longer, or higher up, should fix that. could raise it so 'rines on the other side could still put a mine over it, but... make them have to jump to do it, it's kinda low and in-the-open right now.
It's definately better than the last one, though.
Smaller-ish games it's not too bad.. 6v6, say. The alien speed advantage actually kinda works out here, since you'll probably be able to make the long run-around and flank any sizeable marine force moving to the hive. Bigger games.. it's a problem. 12v12 or bigger and, well, it's hard to break through, since the marines can basically send two bulldozers towards your hive and you've no choice but to either charge into the front of them or wait until they're pretty much right at the hive to ambush them.
That's really the big problem I see. Sure, JP's in the hive vents is bad.. but every time I play the map it seems, the marines wind up getting JP before the aliens can really counter them with anything.. which is a result of few means for aliens to sandwich a marine force moving towards the hive. When you've only got to watch your front, it's not too hard to stop skulks from ambushing you.. it's just not a 'scary' map to play as marines, since it's not something you really have to worry about.
Brightness-wise, I'd actually say you could darken it up some. New alien flashlight is clutch, and ignoring people who crank up the gamma, a pretty easy way to make a marine-biased map more even is to darken it.. and man, any time I try to crank my gamma up too high I always get blinded, or have to turn the contrast down, which'd still mean aliens would be better off eh? <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I've changed the position of marine start so that the left pathway is a more attractive route to take while keeping the large open area as a center room for large battles with many entrances and exits. I tried to keep the vents untouched but I had to remove a few that were very close to marine start and probably would offer too much of an advantage for skulks early on in the game.
I hope you like this one too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the effort.
While moving the large water room has been a suggestion that I've heard for a long while, it's not easy to implement since the level difference between the entrance and the exit is pretty high (it was done originally to bypass the whole central area (it was added in a internal version), and therefore I can't easily connect it that way.
Also, there may be r_speeds problems with that layout, but I appreciate the effort.
I'll try to make the vents more useful in the current map, any other complaints about the "new" layout (only two ways instead of three)?
liquidscript's vent remapping is what I was getting at too.
Mendasp, these aren't complaints. We like your map. That's why we're taking time to give feedback. We certainly appreciate your efforts in making the map and taking your time to listen to and respond to our feedback.
I said complaints for some reason, but I meant comments. IRC is evil <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-odaeyss+May 22 2005, 11:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (odaeyss @ May 22 2005, 11:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lots of feedback<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best first post ever. Thanks!
Edit: I'm going to come up with some more vents and post it later.
Also, only Crispy has commented on the "new" routes, I'm not sure if I should keep it... I think I'll end up reverting to the old (current version) one...
Edit2: How's this? (Will do something about the cargo room in terms of line of sight, too)
<a href='http://img289.echo.cx/my.php?image=savavents4ij.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img289.echo.cx/img289/1669/savavents4ij.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
The white part is the area I deleted for testing... nothing would change there.
Yet another edit:
An alternative:
<a href='http://img270.echo.cx/my.php?image=savavents21zd.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img270.echo.cx/img270/4936/savavents21zd.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
And since you asked, I would absolutely keep the change you made to the layout. I think Water Treatment is one of the best rooms in the map, in terms of aesthetics and in terms of gameplay, and by making that the only option when you exit the left MS door, it finally makes the room get the level of traffic that it deserves.
The left Hive exit is better with an offshoot into theat Hive camp room. I like the idea that it would be behind the red crate so that coming from MS you won't be able to see Aliens pop out. I also think that this should be the only vent exit to that room. It should only take one alternative entry point to even it out, and I think if you find out how much time has been cut with the diagonal this will justify my opinion.
I don't like the top-right vent that exits looking into the Hive room for two main reasons:
- That room has a very low ceiling and if the vent exited from the wall, Marines could easily boost eachother in to camp it and effectively nullify the benefits of an alternative route.
- Only a suicidal Marine would stand anywhere near that vent exit, so if it was added to the map, Marines would simply take up a less advanced position, allowing them to camp the whole of that corridor and the existing vent exits in the bigger room further down. Aliens won't be able to pop out there and will have to run even further down the vent before they can successfully flank the 'rines.
I like the bottom-right vent changes for reasons previously given in this thread.
The bottom-left vent probably isn't neccessary, but would bring more people to the room on the west side of the map. As I said, it probably isn't neccessary but if you want to try it out, make it connect to the white section (if you decide to keep it), not the central corridor. That white section is basically a camp spot for the Marines as they can tkae out Lerks in the vent, anything coming through the middle corridor and cover the corridor leading to MS. A vent in there would keep those campers on their toes!
The central vents are overkill imo. The central corridor already has 3 main exits and 1 vent exit. You're suggesting to up that to 3 main exits and 3 vent exits. I'd keep the left-right vent but lose the top-down vents because the central room plays a special role in the map. This middle section and the two rooms it connects to Hiveside are where the Oni and Fade have to plug the gap. The smaller lifeforms only get kills here if they join the party late (once the Fades/Oni have taken the gunfire) or if they are lurking/cloaked. If you put those vents in it'll bias it too much for Aliens and take away that challenge and gameplay element.
P.S. I had to write this out twice because the internet cafe had a power cut <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd also quite like to see the railings at the bottom of the horribly long corridor removed.
Also, a lerk perch or two would be funky.
I'd also quite like to see the railings at the bottom of the horribly long corridor removed.
Also, a lerk perch or two would be funky. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are plentiful Lerk perches throughout the map (see layout posted in this thread) such as: the 'glass bottles' at the Hive vent double exit; the rooftop arches in the same room; the little vent connecting the first set of left and right rooms immediately outside MS; the vent at the end of the long straight from the righthand MS exit that also looks into the middle chokepoint; the vent exit behind the red crate in the long central corridor; the vent exits by the big crates in the room at the bottom of the rampside Hive exit; the two vent exits in the Hive (although these might be covered in the next version*); and... well that's pretty much the lot!
They're all in locations of strategical value from where Umbra and Sporespams can work to great effect.
* Note to Mendasp: Maybe leave the Vent facing the ramped Hive exit and cover the other one, or alternatively just shorten it and raise the ceiling so that you can fly/proleap in easily and so that Fades can hit the JP Hivecamper for one swipe before he can make his escape. Currently he sees the problem coming too early and can gun down the smaller lifeforms or zip down the vent if its a Fade.
This vent talk is getting very confusing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Which one is "the other one"? Both vents in the hive have cover now (hasn't changed from the pic I showed in this same thread), but I'm not sure what you mean.
You're helping a lot, I can't thank you enough for this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This vent talk is getting very confusing <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Which one is "the other one"? Both vents in the hive have cover now (hasn't changed from the pic I showed in this same thread), but I'm not sure what you mean.
You're helping a lot, I can't thank you enough for this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been rethinking my suggestion, so just igore what I said before and read this:
As you look at your layout (with the Hive at the top) the <span style='color:orange'>left vent exit</span> looks directly onto the right Hive exit. I think that Lerks should still be able to sit in this vent to spore/umbraspam any Marines that want to camp from that doorway.
<span style='color:orange'>The right vent exit</span> should either:
- be covered <i>à la Hera</i>, =OR=
- be shortened to give the vent camper less time to react to a celer skulk/lerk/fade who runs/flies/blinks into the vent to eliminate the threat to the Hive, =AND/OR=
- have its ceiling raised such that a Lerk can dive in and Skulks can leap in but Marines cannot stand.
Covering the right vent exit and leaving the left uncovered would push more JPs through the left vent and probably push more traffic (and therefore more conflict) down the left side of the map.
Leaving both uncovered but changing something about the right vent would leave gameplay roughly the same but give the Aliens a chance of fighting back.
<a href='http://img46.echo.cx/my.php?image=sava31vents5eh.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img46.echo.cx/img46/7569/sava31vents5eh.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
If I leave any of those uncovered then there's the line of sight issue with jetpackers attacking the hive within the vents...
I still think that you can leave the left one uncovered because Aliens can flank through the new, closer vent exit south of the Hive. The thing is, imo covering both the vents will nerf JPs a bit too much. They won't be that great for attacking the Hive because there's not really that much space to fly around.
We'll see how it goes, anyway.
<a href='http://img248.echo.cx/my.php?image=cosavavents1bg.jpg' target='_blank'><img src='http://img248.echo.cx/img248/47/cosavavents1bg.th.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /></a>
And yes, vents are a bit bigger so lerks can fly now, I also removed the railings on the Aux Monitoring room and moved a crate up to the platforms in the cargo room so the marines didn't have that massive line of sight.