A Gamers Manifesto
<div class="IPBDescription">Slashdot Repost</div> First off, this topic is DOOM'd.
Secondly, <a href='http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html' target='_blank'>A Gamer's Manifesto</a>. I haven't actually finished reading it but eh, seems interesting enough to post.
I like this quote though:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two, as <a href='http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/03/burn_the_house_.html' target='_blank'>developers have lamented</a>, the guts of the new consoles are geared to make the gaming equivalent of dumb blondes. It has to do with the fact that both the XBox 360 and the PS3's Cell CPU use "in-order" processing, which, to greatly simplify, means they've intentionally crippled the ability to make clever A.I. and dynamic, unpredictable, wide-open games in favor of beautiful water reflections and explosion debris that flies through the air prettily. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Secondly, <a href='http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html' target='_blank'>A Gamer's Manifesto</a>. I haven't actually finished reading it but eh, seems interesting enough to post.
I like this quote though:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Two, as <a href='http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/03/burn_the_house_.html' target='_blank'>developers have lamented</a>, the guts of the new consoles are geared to make the gaming equivalent of dumb blondes. It has to do with the fact that both the XBox 360 and the PS3's Cell CPU use "in-order" processing, which, to greatly simplify, means they've intentionally crippled the ability to make clever A.I. and dynamic, unpredictable, wide-open games in favor of beautiful water reflections and explosion debris that flies through the air prettily. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
[edit]SPELLING[/edit]
But I think that the danger of making AI lifelike is that it makes the game impossible to play. Because lets face it, if you had all the weaponary in your hands but faced 6 professionally trained killers, you will not survive. Numbers just add up.
So do developers dumb it down so that players can still play a fun filled game?
On another note games nowadays are SOOO much easier to play compared to like games of old.
And where's all the pr0n games? Damn you Wal-Mart!
Some of his arguments sucked, but then some were nice and valid and made sense.
Having said that, 90% of AI is smoke and mirrors while the other 10% is actual "intelligence" (how it reacts to different situations). For example, the AI in Deus Ex was able to tackle an extremely large array of situations effectively, but it often didn't make it obvious why it was doing something, so many people panned it for having "dumb AI".
On the other end of the spectrum, the AI in Metal Gear Solid 2 were scripted to the bone, but the soldiers were some of the most lifelike and effective that I've ever seen.
An example of both of these working together that you'd all like would be Half-Life. A better example would be Halo, but I don't want to awaken the ignorant elitist fanboy horde.
What? No, thats just a lie.
I think everyone will agree with nearly all his points, I mean they're just common sense, but it's good to see someone expressing this. The fact that people still consider Doom3 to be a fun game shows how much games have deteriorated recently as far as gameplay goes. I hope what he says about the Xbox 360 and PS3 turn out to be unfounded though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
The fact that we are seriously trying to discuss an obvious joke article (in a site full of joke articles) kind of disturbs me, though.
Edit: I might add that this has already been discussed to death on other forums back when it was new and that I'm just regurgitating the best arguments.
However, the idea that games only have load times because developers don't care to fix it is BULL ****. This is a clear sign that he has no understanding of how the technology behind games actually works. And how dare he call this a "Manifesto" when most of his arguments can be countered with a simple "**** that".
So an adventure game with low res textures, no *mapping and low polygon geometry has short load times!? I am <i>shocked</i> and <i>amazed</i>.
There was a high profile FPS that tried to do this while still retaining all of the graphical niceties that this guy wants. You might have heard of it. Yeah, <i>that one</i>.
I couldn't care that Killzone looked cool. I watched the video and you know what I saw? That same thing I've been playing since Quake 2 only with more graphics. The Killzone movie was a perfect example of what is wrong in games. Wheres the innovation? Whats that new in the Killzone video apart from the graphics? What makes it different from Call Of Duty apart from the setting?
Answer: Not a lot. In fact nothing, nadda, zilch.
At least games like Brothers In Arms tried something new and different (Even if it wasn't that well implimented) Hell where are the interesting games like Darwinia of the Next Gen Hardware?
Nowhere.
Its sad to admit, but gameplay is dying. Its being smothered to death by the graphics.
Also worth noting is this however.
<!--QuoteBegin-Chris Hecker @ The GDC+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chris Hecker @ The GDC)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Chris: I’m pro-piracy. I want people to play the games I make. I do it because it’s art. I think DRM is a total flipping stupid mess. If the game industry collapses and can be reborn, I’m all for it. Pirate on!
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While I think that piracy is a bad thing and should be avoided (mmkay) He makes a good point. Games are art. And thats why I (eventully) want to make games. Because they're art. And I'd want people to play my games
Not at all. Yes, theres loading going on in these sections, but they aren't loading screens. The guy isn't bitching about loading in general, but that it is extremely noticable when games are "loading" and it takes forever. The little elevator cinematics in Metroid prime take only a few seconds and they don't feel like a loading screen at all, they don't completely destroy your immersion like a screen with a progress bar and "LOADING..." on it.
EDIT:
Right on Venmoch. I'm getting sick of all the pretty pictures taking priority over making anything worth playing. I'm sick of upgrading all my gaming equipment just so I can play what is essentially a prettier version of Quake. In fact, if you can believe this, I don't even own a system capable of playing Doom3 or HL2, and I don't have any interest in owning one, because the only reason I'd need all that power is so I can play the next overhyped tech demo they just boxed and shipped.
I love it... This is <i>the</i> stereotypical game forum thread.
There are seriously entirely different gaming markets out there to appease people if they just poke their head out and look around once in a while.
And loading screens are a necessity sometimes, it's just how it is. Because if you load stuff in the background while someone is playing a game with any kind of complexity for the power of their system, then loading suddenly makes gameplay choppy and people just whine and moan more about choppy gameplay on their supposedly powerful system.
For AI, it's not a matter of there not being enough effort put into it. AI is an amazingly complex problem, which in the past has only seen advancements when someone gets divine inspiration, but you can't force divine inspiration by putting in overtime.
Nothing like that happened in Wind Waker, neither in Prime... just the doors took a few seconds longer to open. Gameplay never got choppy. Then again, those are the only games I've played with no loading screens that I can recall.
Nothing like that happened in Wind Waker, neither in Prime... just the doors took a few seconds longer to open. Gameplay never got choppy. Then again, those are the only games I've played with no loading screens that I can recall. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call either of those games taxing to the system at all.
A large portion of load times is precomputing data to make the game itself run more smoothly. Such as precomputing nodes of unit travel for an rts based on the map. Unperceptible stuff that we take for granted. But in the majority of nintendo games is completely lacking because of their style of play.
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Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?
Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources?
Where's the game where we play a salty Southern lawyer who has to piece together evidence to exonerate a black man falsely accused of murder, breaking down witnesses and spotting inconsistencies in testimony?
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I remember playing "killing moon" or "zac mcragen" (spelling?)... I want that... just newer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The big reason for me to play NS is the concept of it, actually (not the graphics...heh)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The big reason for me to play NS is the concept of it, actually (not the graphics...heh)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Until you remember that the graphics are integral to the concept. You can't have space marines fighting aliens without space marines and aliens.
I don't have a console. Can't stand them, don't know why, exactly.
Hitman 1 was the closest it ever got to those older games.
It is a specific screen/series of events under which loading occurs - a loading screen. A very good implementation, yes, but not to be confused with streaming content that can be loaded on the fly as it needs to be (the direction we're gradually shifting to).
1. Give us A.I. that will actually outsmart us now and then. (self explanatory)
2. Give us a genre of game we've never seen before. Something that's not an FPS or an RPG or Madden NFL or... (creativity++)
3. Don't **** me about your graphics (advertise with in-game shots)
4. Nipples? (Where are the AO games?)
5. And on the opposite side of the nipple coin... (Why are all female characters massive in the chestal region?)
6. All of the new consoles will have hard drives. Use them. (no more savepoints)
7. Loading... (no more black loading screens that pull you out of the experience)
8. I understand that John Madden was raised by wild boars... (no more bad voiceacting)
9. Immersion and the invisible hand of God (no more invisible walls in air, or unclimbable barriers only a foot high)
10. And while we're at it... (no more arbitrary barriers, things your character would obviously be able to smash through, but can't...)
11. And while we're still at it... (nix other immersion-killing things, like text on-screen, cinematic cameras, and - again - crap voice acting)
12. Don't **** us on the difficulty (a game should be difficult because of gameplay, not because of arbitrary triggers, ammo starvation, confusing, mapless floor plans, insta-fail stealth levels, etc)
13. Don't **** us on the game's features (don't have _every_ fps start you out with a pistol and work up to the best weapon in just the final level *cough*HL2*cough*)
14. Seriously, get rid of the crates (self-explanatory)
15. Stop the Short-Sighted Business **** (in-fighting caused by patents, exclusive licenses, and other crap that makes games harder to make and less fun to play)
16. Don't use the online capability as an excuse to release broken games (don't release a crap game expecting to patch it later on)
17. Don't let other features distract from gaming (X-Box 360 != MP3 player. We all have those as *computers*, don't let other features make it a poorer gaming station.)
18. Don't use online play as an excuse to bleed us dry (don't charge per "chapter" in a game)
19. NO MORE JUMPING PUZZLES IN FPS GAMES (the rant's funny on this one, must post it)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->THEY SHOULD HAVE NEVER DONE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. EVER. WHOSE IDEA WAS THIS? I DEMAND TO KNOW. WAS IT TUROK? WAS TUROK THE FIRST? THE VERY FIRST F***ING PERSON TO EVER PUT A JUMPING PUZZLE IN A FIRST-F***ING PERSON GAME SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED, TIED DOWN AND HAD HIS EARS FILLED WITH P***.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
20. Horizontal consoles have been a curse for as long as gaming has been around. I'm not playing another game until I get a machine I can stand on its side. My entertainment center only has three inches of free space and flat consoles are the backstabbing Judas in my life. (Ends with a bang)
I agree with:
1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
Yeah, he's pretty on-target, I'd say.
In #13 (Don't hold back game features) he starts off with the quote:
"Marine, we need you to head to the depths of the compound to rescue a scientist that is being held hostage by Satan and his manyfold minions. Here's your pistol and eight rounds of ammunition. Good luck."
Although this is a common mistake in games, this example is referring to Doom... where it's explained because you're caught in the middle of a disaster.
At the end of #13 he says to see point #11 (onscreen text, cinematic camera, and bad voice actice) which as far as I can tell has nothing to do with $13. Then he goes on to praise Metroid Prime, where the entire point of the game is acquiring all the abilities (game features).
How did he make it to /.?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?
<b>Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources? </b>
Where's the game where we play a salty Southern lawyer who has to piece together evidence to exonerate a black man falsely accused of murder, breaking down witnesses and spotting inconsistencies in testimony?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember playing "killing moon" or "zac mcragen" (spelling?)... I want that... just newer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The big reason for me to play NS is the concept of it, actually (not the graphics...heh) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try Schiffbruch (Shipwreck, don't worry, it comes in English) - it's an old, probably now freeware, game where you basically do everything stated in that tiny paragraph (as well as building tools, finding sunken treasure and doing assorted things to be rescued). It's in a psuedo-topdown view, with randomly generated islands and randomly being rescued (based on what you do to be rescued).
I'm pretty sure that last one is somewhat covered in those Law & Order games, but in all honesty, that type of game would be incredibly hard to play effectively (especially without hand holding) without a law background.