After Playing Around 30 Games Today I've Noticed..
Flak50C
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7247Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7247Members
a couple things. I played all aliens.
We won around 1/3 the games in first rush...
The obvious solution is have one infantry portal there when the game starts for the marines. Not too much to ask i think... but in several maps the command center is tucked away by a slow moving elevator, and there is a hive within 2 seconds vents distance from marine start.
Rushing isn't really a problem when there are good sized teams (10/10 for instance), but I'd like to think NS can still be played on a 12 person server...
I also noticed that the rounds where marines had entrenched the third hive (which was most if they were smart), the winning factor was whether or not the acid rockets were bugged to not damage buildings.
It seems though that both teams have a serious defeciency when it comes to end game... if marines take 2 hives or aliens have all 3 the game is over. Obviously there are unique situations where its naturally recoverable, but for the most part its over... Which I think is unfortunate, mostly because it means endgames are just slaughterfests which any idiot could win.
The marines need something they can take an onos out with besides a squad of heavies with hmgs... One onos should be able to take out a couple marines no problem... but when it massacres a 12 man marine team alone 4 times over UNSUPPORTED its ridiculous... Perhaps some sort of early game anti-building weapon (like a shotgun in cost perhaps, 50 damage double vs buildings, but single shot and relatively low rate of fire), and onos considered 'structures' for damage purposes (but obviously not siege cannon purposes...).
Same thing with skulks... one hive situations are irreversable. Something like 30 HP upgrade per defense chamber (up to level 3...) for skulks and lerks. At least then a skulk can survive a stray bullet from a HMG, and well played aliens have a fighting chance.
We won around 1/3 the games in first rush...
The obvious solution is have one infantry portal there when the game starts for the marines. Not too much to ask i think... but in several maps the command center is tucked away by a slow moving elevator, and there is a hive within 2 seconds vents distance from marine start.
Rushing isn't really a problem when there are good sized teams (10/10 for instance), but I'd like to think NS can still be played on a 12 person server...
I also noticed that the rounds where marines had entrenched the third hive (which was most if they were smart), the winning factor was whether or not the acid rockets were bugged to not damage buildings.
It seems though that both teams have a serious defeciency when it comes to end game... if marines take 2 hives or aliens have all 3 the game is over. Obviously there are unique situations where its naturally recoverable, but for the most part its over... Which I think is unfortunate, mostly because it means endgames are just slaughterfests which any idiot could win.
The marines need something they can take an onos out with besides a squad of heavies with hmgs... One onos should be able to take out a couple marines no problem... but when it massacres a 12 man marine team alone 4 times over UNSUPPORTED its ridiculous... Perhaps some sort of early game anti-building weapon (like a shotgun in cost perhaps, 50 damage double vs buildings, but single shot and relatively low rate of fire), and onos considered 'structures' for damage purposes (but obviously not siege cannon purposes...).
Same thing with skulks... one hive situations are irreversable. Something like 30 HP upgrade per defense chamber (up to level 3...) for skulks and lerks. At least then a skulk can survive a stray bullet from a HMG, and well played aliens have a fighting chance.
Comments
Skulks have some problems against the upgraded marine guns, but they cost nothing to have, so I wouldn't consider that an issue. Lerks are plenty tough as is, since the smart lerks will be flying, hiding, and umbraing their way to victory. A lerk who's holding still in plain sight without umbra deserves to die.
For the skulks in the end game, I do agree with the fact that they are much too ineffective against HA and/or HMG marines. Having them gain health with each defense chamber is not a bad idea, though I think 30 per chamber is a bit high. Perhaps something more like 10-20.
And yes, I think having attacks/weapons that are effective against buildings with minimum requirements for achieving is a good idea for both teams. Example: The gorge's or Lerk's ranged attack does extra damage to buildings, and the Marines shotgun could also do extra damage to buildings. This could be an effective way for a losing team to turn the game around. I'm sure there are some problem with this idea, although I cannot see them yet.
In short, I find the biggest problem with the game to be for a team to come back from a losing situation. If there was just some way that would make it possible for skilled players to be able to turn a game around, that could make the game much more unpredictable and exciting. Don't get me wrong though, I already find this game to be an absolute blast, and the fact that this is only version 1.02 astounds me.
The main factor behind the whole Endgame Slaughterfest, however real this actually is, is this: If the aliens have managed to take all three hives, or the marines have captured two hives, chances are very good that they also have almost all the nodes in the map. Or, if they don't already have them, the advantage they already have will enable them to easily claim the remaining ones. Control over the nodes is critical--whichever team has most of them get the best stuff, and more importantly, <i>the other team will be hard-pressed to ever recover them.</i>
The only likely solution to this *possible* issue would be to have the "losing" team (ie if the marines have two hives or the aliens have three) gain resources at a slightly faster rate.
And don't forget that grenades are currently bugged, once they're made to work properly, I'm betting they'd do a bang-up job of blowing up structures.
And don't forget that grenades are currently bugged, once they're made to work properly, I'm betting they'd do a bang-up job of blowing up structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was trying to say that I think each team should get some sort of method for being more effective even at the beginning of the round. No, you're right, the shotty should not be able to blow up buildings as that would be unfair, but maybe if there was a weapon/attack for each team that only did damage to buildings, and not players, then it would make it possible for one team to reclaim a small portion of the map if they work togther. Since the person with the weapon/attack that only hurts building would be vulnerable to players, they would probably take someone with an anti-player weapon/attack along with them. This would both encourage teamwork and give the losing team a fighting chance to turn the game around.
And don't forget that grenades are currently bugged, once they're made to work properly, I'm betting they'd do a bang-up job of blowing up structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's wrong with it?
Now that aliens have been tweaked better and marines have been made more costly now aliens are a little, gulp, don't wanna say it, overpowered. It was true that the game was even at the start but when people were complaining that marines were too tough things were tweeked and now people are complaining about aliens, especially Fade. They should a just stayed with fixing bugs and left gameplay aspects as they were because it was true how people didn't know the full potential of aliens.
But ahh, I don't want to start another "unbalanced teams thread" Just want to point out that the testers were kinda right,but nobody listenned to them. Now I'm thinking that something will have to be done to marines, another tiny tweak to make it completely even again.
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Now that aliens have been tweaked better and marines have been made more costly now aliens are a little, gulp, don't wanna say it, overpowered. It was true that the game was even at the start but when people were complaining that marines were too tough things were tweeked and now people are complaining about aliens, especially Fade. They should a just stayed with fixing bugs and left gameplay aspects as they were because it was true how people didn't know the full potential of aliens.
But ahh, I don't want to start another "unbalanced teams thread" Just want to point out that the testers were kinda right,but nobody listenned to them. Now I'm thinking that something will have to be done to marines, another tiny tweak to make it completely even again.
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By all means, I believe the teams are <u><i>wonderfully</u></i> balanced. I just think that both teams need a way to come back from a near defeat.
Natural Selection is the same way. In fact (I apologize to those of you who hate comparisons to Starcraft), being a Kharaa is very much similar to being a Zerg, and being a Marine is very much similar to being a Terran. As the Kharaa, you have to swarm the marines and destroy destroy destroy, while at the same time trying to conquer the hives and key parts of the map. As the marines, you want to set up as quick of a functioal base as possible then set out to conquer hives before the aliens can get all 3 and wipe you out.
If aliens get 3 hives, they deserve to win. If marines grab 2 hives, they deserve to win. This is an RTS; treat it like one. If you are aliens, and you and your teammates can't use enough strategy to get get either of those 2 hives before marines do, boohoo...you should have. And If you are marines, and the Kharaa get all the hives and you don't stand a chance...boohoo. You shouldn't have turtled up and tried uselessly to get better tech while the aliens took control of the entire map.
I doubt you've heard of many cases of a C&C commander recovering from a successful tank rush, or a tank rusher recovering from having all his forces (and the credits invested in them) decimated, leaving his base completely open for counterattack. It just doesn't happen. NS already gives players enough leeway as is; I've seen a few comebacks made by aliens against a marine team with nearly full tech and command of 2 hives, and a few comebacks made by marines against aliens with 3 hives. If this were a true RTS, those wouldn't happen at all. Be thankful for that. But please, stop complaining about how this doesn't allow losing teams to make comebacks - like any good RTS, it wasn't designed that way.
All of the area effect weapons are currently acting oddly, sometimes not affecting structures at all, or doing less damage to things in their radius than they should be. The programming guys are working on it, so hopefully 1.03 will see everyone's guns working properly.
It's an intentional "imbalance" (and therefore, not really an imbalance at all) designed to kick a game to its conclusion without dragging out an already decided outcome. There are always possibilities for a comeback - marines can make a daring siege run or lightning strike on an under-defended hive, aliens can knock out weak defenses at one of the occupied hives or sneak through marine defenses to destroy the command center and infantry portals. However, comebacks from a high- vs. low-tech situation are meant to be unlikely, to prevent games from dragging on interminably.
Some of you will argue that the endgame frequently *does* take forever. This is due in large part to buggy building-assault weapons like the siege and bile bomb. Once these are corrected, endgames will be much swifter and hopefully less frustrating for the losing team.
People have a tendency to quit when they're losing... it's a shame, really. There's always another game to be played and a chance for redemption (no pun intended), if you just stick it out to the end and call for a rematch in the readyroom after it ends. Players need to stop quitting when their team gets down on its luck, as it's only frustrating for the players who don't give up so easily. NS isn't always about winning; it's about the experience all the way through.
Natural Selection is the same way. In fact (I apologize to those of you who hate comparisons to Starcraft), being a Kharaa is very much similar to being a Zerg, and being a Marine is very much similar to being a Terran. As the Kharaa, you have to swarm the marines and destroy destroy destroy, while at the same time trying to conquer the hives and key parts of the map. As the marines, you want to set up as quick of a functioal base as possible then set out to conquer hives before the aliens can get all 3 and wipe you out.
If aliens get 3 hives, they deserve to win. If marines grab 2 hives, they deserve to win. This is an RTS; treat it like one. If you are aliens, and you and your teammates can't use enough strategy to get get either of those 2 hives before marines do, boohoo...you should have. And If you are marines, and the Kharaa get all the hives and you don't stand a chance...boohoo. You shouldn't have turtled up and tried uselessly to get better tech while the aliens took control of the entire map.
I doubt you've heard of many cases of a C&C commander recovering from a successful tank rush, or a tank rusher recovering from having all his forces (and the credits invested in them) decimated, leaving his base completely open for counterattack. It just doesn't happen. NS already gives players enough leeway as is; I've seen a few comebacks made by aliens against a marine team with nearly full tech and command of 2 hives, and a few comebacks made by marines against aliens with 3 hives. If this were a true RTS, those wouldn't happen at all. Be thankful for that. But please, stop complaining about how this doesn't allow losing teams to make comebacks - like any good RTS, it wasn't designed that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not just an RTS, it's also a FPS. And, despite what it might be "classified" in, it should not be restricted to other developer's idea of what an RTS should be. This game is NOT C&C or Starcraft, and while it may have some similarities with either of them, that does not in any way mean that it must follow their blueprint.