The majority of the complaints I have read seem to suggest to me that the person wanting the change just wants to improve the style of play he chooses. For example, let's say I like to play as a Fade: "**obscenity** Bile Bomb doesn't do enough damage to buildings...it takes forever to destroy them." Yet Fades have the ability to lob a "grenade" type projectile into a room without actually coming into ANYONE'S line-of-fire. Not to mention you can lob those suckers into a room full of light armored marines and kill them all with splash damage and not take any damage yourself. If marines can't afford seige cannons in their own base they are so unbeleivably screwed it's not funny. Last night I got a gorge to build some defense chambers close enough to me that I could heal and still sit close enough to continuously lob bile bombs into the marine base right at their spawn points and commander chair. If that's not cheap I don't know what is. Imagine if Bile Bomb did more damage. Now let's say I am a marine: "I'm so damn slow with HA on I can't get away/chase a Fade." and/or "It takes so long to get HA that aliens have Fade's already." Of course you're going to be slow...do you realize you can tear up a fade and only use 1/3rd of your clip??
Ok here is one thing all of you need to know about playing marines. STOP THE ALIENS FROM GETTING RESOURCES. If you're concentrating on just hive's you've got it all wrong. Do you not realize that aliens share from the same resource pool just as you do? If you stop them from getting resource towers you stop their chances at even CREATING a hive. If you could keep them on 2-3 resource towers i gaurantee you wouldn't even have to watch a hive...because they can't even build it! Not to mention the fact that you'll be rolling in the dough yourself and have everyone in HA/HMG in no time. THAT is when you concentrate on hives. If you take a hive and try to fortify it, you leave the aliens wide open to collect resources from all over the map, and then it's only a matter of time. they'll slowly build def/off towers right up to you and then bum rush you with Fade's...regardless if they have the 3rd hive..cause they don't need it. Too many people have the mindset that Hive = teh win. It doesn't. If they want that hive...they'll take it. Cause for you to fortify it enough for them to not take it...then you haven't spent money getting resource towers elsewhere and they already have them. You're screwed.
I've been playing about 8 hours a day for the past week (nothing else to do at the moment..school is slow). I have seen marines dominate and I have seen aliens dominate. When I am a marine, I don't waste too much time asking for HA/HMG. Most likely my commander is busy doing more important things like fortifying a resource tower. Also marines have the respawn time advantage, so the sooner you get out of spawn and back to the action the better. If you waste the commanders time asking for HA/HMG everytime you die (especially if you die a lot), he'll most likely stop giving it to you. I've found the less I ask for HMG the more I get it. As alien I find playing offense and defense to be the same enjoyment for me. I'm an awesome builder IMHO. Our team has won about 90% of the time when I am builder. I take resource towers first and surround them with 2-3 defense chambers (that gives us time to get the the resource tower because of the healing). I ALWAYS build off/def in groups...never sporadically. It's half fear factor. Imagine what a LA marine thinks when he rounds a corner only to see 5-6 off towers staring straight at him (with 3-4 def towers right behind the off towers). Webbing just once or twice right in front of your groups helps a lot too...especially for those pesky HA/HMG'ers. They move slow as it is, and with web they are practically standing still...add to the fact that they might run backwards! Anyways, building bunches = teh win. Building here and their with no def towers = stupid (I see this all the time). One thing I have noticed is if you have one gorge go for only resource towers and the other gorge (usually I do it) heavily fortify your original base by blocking entrences with 5-6 off towers. All the while having skulks/fades annoying the crap out of the marine base. One little tip I find fun to do especially on this one certain map. I forget what it's called. It's the one where you can go "outside" kind of to a balcony type hallway thing with red walls and there's a satallite dish right there. Anways, once I get going with defense as gorge I like to occasionally sneak up to the marine base and heavily web their exits. They really get **obscenity** and usually are hesitant to run into the web in case 2-3 Fades are waiting just outside. Also, put ONE string of web at the bottom of doorways all over the place. You can't see it and most marines hit it everytime.
The game is balanced to me. Even seige cannons are fine to me. It keeps Fade's from using defense towers right outside the marine base and just standing there lobbing in Bile bombs. (I mentioned this earlier.) The problem I see is that people just don't know how to play the game right yet. All it takes is a crappy commander or some idiot spamming "COMMANDER GIMME HA/SHOTGUN/JETPACK IN SPAWN NOW FAJSDKFJSF" and then running off to die in 30 seconds. Or on alien side all it takes is one gorge to waste money by building one off tower here and there or in places that can be easily shot at. Imagine how hard it is to get that in pubs. We don't need health stations in my opinion because marine armor is already better...marine guns are already better...marine spawn times are already better. Sure aliens get on-the-spot health and ammo, but they have 1/4-1/2 the armor and damage.
It will just take time for people to get used to the game. It's almost too early to judge what needs to be fixed IMO. Some things can be blatent obvious, but most of the things people are complaining about shouldn't be messed with yet.
Hmm, post got so long I don't know if I mentioned everything I wanted to. Oh well. Hope some of it helps.
HMG/Jets, however, does. Remember - this game isn't about twitching. It is about forces and strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> uh....you do know what acid rocket is a projectile, right? I have killed SO many jetpackers with mid-air shots, or any time they come in contact with a wall, I can splash damage them.
So aliens share a "pool?". Basically, upgrades are cheap as hell. 4rs and you have your main combat upgrades, 2 more and you get cloak or something. Whenever I play alien, becoming a fade is almost free. I usually always have enough RS to do it. And the upgrade time is nothing compared to how long you'd need to wait in spawn for your comm to get around to giving you stuff sometimes. Plus, you can upgrade in the field and give yourself a complete heal. "Hey, my Onos is down to 10 health and 0 armor. I'll upgrade to cloaking...........whee, 500 health 200 armor".
<!--QuoteBegin--Cyanide+Nov 19 2002, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyanide @ Nov 19 2002, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Chron+Nov 18 2002, 10:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chron @ Nov 18 2002, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game WAS balanced before 1.01. No one knew how to play aliens, so they sucked and bitched. Thats what we get for bitching so soon. I think you unbalanced it just to teach the community a lesson. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, thanks for at least acknowledging that it was balanced, as it was before 1.01. However, adding more to the fade is in no way unbalancing it much at all. The game itself right now is just as balanced as it was before. For all of you who just sit there and complain and complain, stop playing, your only ruining the fun for everyone. The whole reason you think its unbalanced is because your not playing with the right teams. If you really want to play NS and have the best experience, play clan play. I can't stress this enough. However, can we please stop complaining, the game is balanced finely, ive own hundreds of marine and alien wins, equally.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats the same thought I had, that I wasn't playing with the right teams. Then I played with the right teams, and marines seemed weak. But it wasn't so much the wrong team as the wrong strategy I think. I think thats where the learning curve in this game is for marines. They need to play with the right team AND have the right strat before they can play the game the way it should be.
It was my thought a while ago that turrets seemed very inefficient in terms of cost:worth. But so are big guns when your fighting skulks. which leaves, really, just going up the tech tree for HA and arms lab upgrades. you don't need hmgs until they have fades. but most comms rush to HMGs and hand them out like nothing.
Ok the game is not completely unbalanced, the aliens do not have a significant advantage over the marines or vice versa. The difference between marines winning or aliens winning in the future will be more dependant on individual skills and teamwork ability. In general most people who play marines (including commanders) usually use the wrong tactics whereas people have sussed out the general way to play aliens (although there is definately room for improvement)
<b>General things to note for playing marines</b>
* Generally alien hive locations have a resource point next to them so its better to secure that hive and resource point at the very start of the map rather then secure just a lone resource point.
* Commander build 3 respawn pads so if marine group gets ambushed respawns are faster. (most commanders only get two)
* Generally DO NOT get a HMG unless you have HVY armor also. Your chances of dieing as a light with a HMG are just as great as without one. Commanders do not give out HMG's unless you have heavy armor to give them also. Only give out grenade launchers to known skilled players who dont go of on solo rambo missions, and only give them out if absolutely necessary to kill enemy buildings. Otherwise save and tech to heavy armor
* Do not OVER turret an area, generally have a max of two turrets covering each side of the turret factory and 1-2 covering each side of resource towers. By covering i mean 2 in the line of sight so for the BEST FORMATION picture a box around the turret factory, each corner of the box is a turret so that each turret can see 2 sides of the factory. You can put an extra turret on the side the aliens will enter the room from. If you have any more than 5-6 turrets then its worth getting a second factory to protect your investment.
* RUSH fades! If your team doesnt have heavy armor and hmg or if low on resources then respawn, go through phase gate to combat area and rush the fade attacking the area. Dont even bother to stop for ammo, once you waste your LMG clip fast switch to pistol and keep shooting. Die and repeat, you'll be suprised how easy it is to take the fade out. If you do have HMG and HVY armor then god damn rush the hell out of the fade, if your teammates do the same you will easily take the fade(s) out. However if say there is a group of 3-4 fades together then different tactics are needed ( see below)
* If you have the 3rd hive turreted and the aliens have the other two and your 3rd hive is under attack by multiple fades then have a couple of marines stay at that hive and defend it, their job is to basically slow the fades down so they cant take the hive out so fast . Repair the turrets/factory, lay down suppresion fire and rushing are all good tactics to slow the fades down. Meanwhile WHOIS DEFENDING THE OTHER TWO HIVES FOR THE ALIENS IF THEY ARE ALL ATTACKING THE 3RD HIVE!?!? Seems to me like an excellent oppertunity to send a squad of marines to one of the other 2 alien hives (the easier to get to and least turreted one would be nice, which is usually their 2nd hive not their main one). DO NOT ATTACK THE HIVE(or any other alien structure if possible) this will alert all the aliens and your marine squad will soon be dead. If teh alien hive is undefended then build a turret factory. Upgrade to siege as soon as its done, get some turrets around and a phase gate. Then use sieges to kill the hive whilst your marines/turrets protect the sieges from the multiple fades that will apear. Once the hive is dead then RUSH THE HELL OUT OF THE FADES and kill them. Remember when doing this tactic try not to attack ANY alien buildings as this will alert the aliens. Generally you can have a factory and siege killing their hive by the time the aliens even know your there. Hopefully the other hive you had before is still secured, if not then again move all but 2 marines back to that hive to retake it. Other 2 marines secure the hive you just took.
*If you as a marine walk around a corner and see a million offense chambers then dont immediately attack them. If possible look for another way around, if you attack you will just alert aliens to your presence, if possible get a grenade launcher and a teammate to back you up wiht a HMG, as you take the chambers out your teammate protects you. Alternatively if its not in the middle of nowhere setup a turret factory and siege them down. If they start turreting outside of your main base or any other base then do not attack the towers (unless there are only one or two in which case rush and kill the gorg building them) but generally just let the gorg there build as many towers as he wants and go out a different way. Later on or if the aliens start useing the chambers to attack the base then upgrade to siege and take them out. Not only will it have been a waste of time/resources for the gorg the siege cannons may also kill a few aliens in the area if they are useing them to heal <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
* After one hive is secure then securing the next one is NO.1 priority. Generally do not try to secure two hives at once as most of the time you will lose many resources when your builders gets ambushed.
* If there is a double resource point then secure that first, have marines in one group to do so.
The key term in this topic being <b>was</b>. The reason the dev. team made changes to the marines in 1.01 was, as has been said, because it was easy to be a marine and everyone wanted to. Many weren't willing to learn the alien's system of operation, thus drawing popularity in favor of the n00bE friendly marines, and not the almost-veteran-level-experience-required aliens. I would like to see all the original setting restored so things will be balanced again, as enough time has passed for everyone to get acustomed to both the marines style of play and the aliens style of play.
I just played a game where instead of gettnig the 3rd hive (They had it occupied) we decided to evolce to fades and start attacking. In about 10 mins we have 3 fades going plus off/def chamber backup.
10 minuites later, everything was gone. They had HA/HMG Shotguns and the whatnot. Siege took out the Chambers and they completely decimated us.
They had a smart commander and they played it cool.
Fades are indestructable, a few shotgun blasts and they will fall.
What is it with marines players do you all have some sort of exaggeration disease? According to some of the last few posts, 3 entire lmg clips and a pistol clip wont kill a fade, and also HA/HMG is easily beated by a fade? I mean wtf is up with you ppl?
The fact is most marines are just sprayers, that why they suck with the HMG, "OMG THERES AN ALIEN!! SPRASPRASSPRAYSPRASYSDPRAY"
Its so lame the way ppl just come and complain cus they cant win in a few games they've played. Get over it, marines are equally balanced so stop whinging about it and learn how to play instead. The changes in 1.01 were made due to Flay viewing a few high-level clan games NOT because ppl were whining.
You've only been playing the game a few weeks and already everyone seems to know more about it than the playtesters that have been playing for months and months.
THE GAME IS BLANCED GET OVER IT.
I mean HMG/HA can't beat a fade i mean wtf lol....
Marines are so much easier to use than aliens its not even funny, I mean theres no scope whatsoever for tactical fitesse when all you've got is a big gun and a load of armour. All u gotta do is run about, don't get caugh out, and HIT things instead of spraying your **obscenity** off and DONT PLAY RAMBO.
And as for the jetpack / shotgun combo, I mean its not exactly hard to kill ppl when the only 2 types of aliens that can kill you are fades and lerks. Hovering above CC only aliens and shooting at them takes so much skill....
Shooting things is easy peasy, working as an effective team is the hard part.
Don't complain, heavy armour and heavy machineguns are the easiest things in the world to use, the real hard part of being a marine is working together properly Mr. Rambo.
Theres nothing that feels better than slowly picking off a stupid marine thats gone AWOL and is miles away for, his team just because hes got Heavy armour or a big gun and thinks hes a one man army.
Plsplspls really do shutup and just play and you'll see. I've played against some good marines teams on more exclusive servers and the game is certainly balanced and i'd say its a lot easier for marines to win with just a little bit of tactics than it is for aliens to beat a well organised marine team.
Its just so funny they way people keep moaning when anyone whos played in a proper game can see that its balanced.
Another thing is that everytime marines lose, its cus the damn game is inblanced, not because they suck or they're commander is rubbish, or the aliens got organised and killed them, its cus the game is imblanced... right?
okay, markeo, just shut up. You don't know a thing about how I play, or what my skill level is, or who I play with. what are you supposed to do when you see an alien. I don't think our guns have a special burst fire accuracy. so as long as your crosshair is on the alien, your doing the best you possibly can. am I supposed to rush in for close range fighting vs fade with no armor or heavy weapon? wait, nevermind, I told you to shut up. so stay shut.
i would have to disagree on the comment on "giving every marine a GL to comabt Fades+ umbra". you don't need to have everyone equipt with GL's one or two will do as they do pretty good splash damage. if you stuck in groups you could have say 2 guys with HA and HMG in the front while 2 guys or one lobbing grenades and scareing all the fades away while the HMG's can get into a good range to put on the hurt.
aliens aren't overpowered as it has been stated before, they can easily loose as teh marines. i've had many games where i've lost against marines. most of the time it was due to our lack of scouting for arising siege bases by our 2nd hive while we were concentrating elsewhere.
From my playing experience, the game is not unbalanced. I've lost score now (stopped caring), but I was keeping track of all the complete public games I've played. The aliens ended up with five wins and the marines with six wins. I was on the winning side nine times and the losing side two times. Okay, that last statistic was unnecessary. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately, my experience only deals with public games (no clan just yet). Let me analyze my views on different stages of a common match scenario. Although this is a rather specific analyzation of a possible match, I also comment on several comparisons regarding team balance.
Match Start: Singlehandedly, I've killed six skulks at once during an opening skulk rush. On the otherhand, many a time, I've seen the skulk rush win the game within the first couple of minutes. After the skulk rush and the marines' original base building, each team's expansion rate seems to be nearly identical. The marines tend to expand with slightly better defenses in place, but a good team of skulks and lerks can easily suppress, slow, and basically neutralize the marine expansion. If the turret factory going down didn't cause all turrets to go offline, I believe aliens would have a hard time slowing the marine expansion. <i>Each team's expansion rate and their starting strengths/weaknesses are balanced.</i>
Second Hive Up/Marine Hold Third Hive (Equal Mid-Game): Eesh, this can be a tough spot for the aliens to be in. The marines likely have heavy armor, and the aliens are likely using fades. I find a fade versus heavy armor situation to be in the fade's favor, but not by much. Really, it depends on the environment. On eclipse, in the area near the computer core (I believe) that contains several walls, I've killed three grouped heavies at once using the awesome cover there along with scent of fear to note the marine's positions. But on the other hand, moving down a long hallway without cover or being in any kind of open room gives the fade a HUGE disadvantage while fighting a heavy-armored marine. <i>Fade versus heavy-armor is balanced.</i> Hell, I've seen plenty of well-skilled heavy-armored marines fall to a lone skulk in an open hallway as well as plenty of well-skilled Onos fall to lone light-armored marines.
Endgame: Okay, by this point of the game, things SHOULD be unbalanced. One team should be strong enough to overcome the other team relatively quickly and get the match over with. And as a side note, stop complaining about unfair teams near the end of a match when your team's loss is basically guaranteed. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
All in all, <i>NS is as balanced as it could possibly be</i> and I friggin' love it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Chron+Nov 19 2002, 11:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chron @ Nov 19 2002, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So aliens share a "pool?". Basically, upgrades are cheap as hell. 4rs and you have your main combat upgrades, 2 more and you get cloak or something. Whenever I play alien, becoming a fade is almost free. I usually always have enough RS to do it. And the upgrade time is nothing compared to how long you'd need to wait in spawn for your comm to get around to giving you stuff sometimes. Plus, you can upgrade in the field and give yourself a complete heal. "Hey, my Onos is down to 10 health and 0 armor. I'll upgrade to cloaking...........whee, 500 health 200 armor".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) Aliens do NOT start off with the ability to upgrade. We need a gorge to build towers, which are extremely expensive in the first stages of the game.
B) Getting carapace+cloaking+adrenaline for a fade takes a significant amount of time.
C) Evolving into a fade takes even longer. We could simply run to attack with a skulk, but a skulk running into an HA marine is still a Bad Situation™, even if the skulk has carapace.
D) If you are able to upgrade in the field, then the other team is already pretty screwed to begin with.
Your point about waiting in the marine spawn is worthless. It takes 5 seconds if the commander is on top of things. You're just grasping at straws now.
And secondly, aliens do NOT start off with a pethora of resources. We start off with a maximum limit of 33. In addition to the significant amount of time it takes to aquire enough resources for a hive, aliens also have to wait even LONGER for the hive to actually be built. During this time, we have to also defend it. When the 2nd hive is actually built, aliens then have to wait even LONGER to go from 33 resources to 44. Then they have to wait more to upgrade to carapace and adrenaline. What's more, once they finally DO evolve into fades, they have JACK SQUAT for remaining resources, which means that if you botch up and die (which is extremely possible at that point in the game), they have ANOTHER nice long wait before you can become a fade again. So, YES, we rely on defense turrets. Fades would be a waste of time and resources otherwise, and aliens would have no possible way to counter HA marines.
Bottom line? If you have enough resources to evolve into a fade after dying, that means that your team has the majority of resource vents. That, in turn, means that the alien team is more powerful NOT because of imbalance, but because the marines **obscenity** up multiple times along the way.
It's not like aliens just start the round, instantly become a team full of carapaced, adrenalined, cloaking fades spewing insta-gib acid rockets while going "AHAHAHA, we have no building penalties! Eat **obscenity**!".
<!--QuoteBegin--McMasters+Nov 19 2002, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (McMasters @ Nov 19 2002, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Agreed. HA/HMG doesn't beat Fade. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well hello there mister <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->. I see you have a fine idea about Fades.
If a lone fade happens to find a lone HAHMG, what should the fade do? Unless the HAHMG is a newbie, you might as well fire a few acids and run back to the nearest defense to heal, you have little chance of winning a fight with a marine decked out with armor and weapons. If the acid rockets (melee is pointless, though the damage is better, you're dead in 2 seconds with that HMG) didn't suck up your energy faster than a really fast thing, the situation might be different.
<!--QuoteBegin--Acrobad+Nov 18 2002, 10:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acrobad @ Nov 18 2002, 10:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm going to agree that Aliens <i>do</i> win more matches, but that is just because of a marine team who can't work together or the commander is inexperienced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the KEY to the marine team. The marines have a much higher learning curve and you have to have a good commander. I was playing today and we, the marines, were getting the snot kicked out of use. Until we had a commander that KNEW what he was doing show up. We ran roughshod over the same alien team 3 matches in a row.
It's really hard to tell what the blance is, but the game is so damn fun...WHO CARES? I have fun losing!!
The thought of getting pushed back to a last strong point getting assaulted by wave after wave of aliens was fun as hell!!
"Look man, I only need to know one thing....where...they...are!"
<!--QuoteBegin--Shrike30+Nov 19 2002, 12:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shrike30 @ Nov 19 2002, 12:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The most important thing to remember is this: it's rare to find a fade who's going flat-out berserker assault. Ambush? Sure. Blink right next to you and swipe? Sure. Hit-and-fade (no pun intended) from around a corner while standing next to a D tower? Sure. But the ones who go flat out into your group tend to not last quite as long. Get yourself decently upgraded (a prototype and a shotgun/HMG/GL is a good choice of gear), and don't LET the fade do what comes naturally, and you'll do alright. But if you let the fade attack how IT wants, you're giving it the advantage... and you're gonna die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is SO true. I had a group today fall into the trap of long range blasting with a fade that kept coming up, popping into the room, then running away to heal. He was doing massive damage. I then decided to take matters into my own hands. I gather two more marines and flanked him. We waited until he was coming back from one of his raids and took him down quite quickly. Don't fight fades on THEIR terms, you will loose.
I also hear crying about combined arms. Use it, it works. Give one guy a grenade launcher and he can take care of the umbra'd fades while everyone else mops up the sulks and lerks.
This game is about tactics and the marines have to use a lot more of them.
No.. I think it is perfectly balanced, the problem is the marine's, but it's not the makers fault.
Marines need to have a good commander(IT IS CRUCIAL) and it seems to me that most commanders dont know what they're doing.. I think everyone should read stratgeies for it.. you cant just go in and do the team good. Sure good fighters are important, but without a good commander it is nearly impossible.. It is'nt easy to change commanders.. It is easy to change into a gorge (the alien commander)
also lets not forget that the skulks are really quick and do a lot of damage.. comparded to the Marines starting it's very hard... and nearly no one is used to attacking these super quick targets that are after you.
I find thta most good players prefere aliens because of how different they are.. marines get boring.
If both teams had equally good fighters and builders the marines would have a good chance.
However I have witnessed a few wins by the marines due to having a strong team and quickly expanding.
First thing I have to say, quit asking for stuff from the Commander. His job is probably the hardest out of everyones. He has to drop medpacks, build building, plan attacks, equip soldiers, and get people to where they need to be. The marines at times move way to slowly. I don't mean like moving around. I mean Marines tend to sit at spawn and whine about not getting equipment. You know what, that is what loses matches. While you are whining, your teammates who are trying to defend an area are getting munched on because there back-up is at base whining because the commander won't drop him a HMG. Marines need to just get to where they need to be and do what they are told to. EVEN if they think it is a bad decision. You never know what is going on in other parts of the map. The commander does. Yes hives are important, but not as much as resource towers. If you hit the Aliens hard in a spot fall back regroup and attack from a diffrent direction you can almost always do enough damage to at least slow them down. And if they get some heavy guns in there like the fade, fall back and attack a diffrent location till you can get your own heavy guns online. The commander should be your god, you follow him with out question to where ever he sends you. Even if it means your death. You never know that by slowying the enemys advance may save your team from destruction. Learn how to work together and decide on smaller things on your own. Communicate with your Commander , ask if you should stay put or move forward. If you don't get a responce just stay where you are and hold position. The commander is more then likely having his hands full, and need to focus on a battle across from the map. Attack diffrent locations at the same time, such as maybe having one squad attack a small outpots. And when a fade come to defend have another heavier squad hit there hive with everything you have. When the fade turns to run and help the hive once more hit hard and fall back. And yes Sieges may be cheap but they are a trump card for the Marines. Just like the Aliens have an Onos. And Anyway the Aliens have it better in that region anyways. The Siege can't move can't defend itself and sure as hell can't kill 4 marines in a row. The sides are fine. Its the tatics that are being used that may not be working. Don't **obscenity** and whine and take time to sit around and ask for weapons, ask once if you don't get it move out and try to stay alive. Form up with some other players and watch each others backs. And that is all I have to say about that <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin---XtremeX-+Nov 21 2002, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-XtremeX- @ Nov 21 2002, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First thing I have to say, quit asking for stuff from the Commander. His job is probably the hardest out of everyones. He has to drop medpacks, build building, plan attacks, equip soldiers, and get people to where they need to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly...this pisses me off too and I'm NOT a commander! I did something novel tonight and it worked out VERY well.
I played supply sergaent. I took it upon myself to do the following things...
A. Stay at main base to build things. I flat out told new recruits to move out and leave the building to me. One person building saves hassle of keeping track of what needs build/repaired and keeps bodies in the field.
B. I directed traffic. Thats right, I followed and worked with the commander and when he was setting something up, I directed which way the marines should go. I also formed them into groups. As they returned to the main base, I told them to wait and go in twos and threes. Belive it or not, they acutally listened and followed directions!
C. I handed out weapons the commander made. I would direct guys to pick up certain things if they didnt see it. I also made sure guys didnt leave the spawn without ammo. I watched guys spawn and if they started to run out without visiting the armory, I'd give them a reminder. I know many of you have done this.
D. I played base defense. With my eyes and ears on the base, I could call for back up and leave the commander doing his job. I took responsiblity for defending the base and the command pod.
E. I worked as a liason with the field troops answering questions about what was available at base without them bugging the commander all the time.
F. I kept a welder handy, so when guys phased in to rearm...I was there repairing armor. That was a HUGE help.
G. Other miscellaneous tasks...welding doors/ports, checking up on resouces, repairing base equipment, etc.
At the end of the game, the commander was very pleased. He said it helped tremendously.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The secret to being marines is getting at least one of their hives. From there it's generally HMG marines vs fades, and with a good commander you can out resource the aliens and turret creep to the second hive<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARRGH! See? Turret Creeping!
Right, my theory is this. If a mod is set up perfectly (and needs no more tweaking) it should play like the situtation would in real life. (Well, as close as you can get with 9 foot cloaking aliens)
This is why I reckon something is wrong, as in the same situation, would the marines go moving, corner by corner, deploying a sentry gun (or 10!) at EVERY SINGLE ONE? No.
Plus, doesn't turret creeping feel like you've missed the best bit of the game? The actual fighting the aliens bit? Because what seems to always happen, is that the aliens (in that situation) don't lose to your great teamwork or nice accuracy, they just lose to the fact that Marines can rushbuild structures.
In which case, you're defying the whole point of the mod, IMO.
mmm. I think the ONLY bug was the resources thing in 1.00, the rest, some unbalance features and some exploits. With the 1.02.....gameplay is perfect. Ive had the opportunity to play both public and clan matches and i must say aliens ALWAYS are funnier in public servers while in clan matches you can have great time on both teams. The problem aliens mainly win in pub srvers is that or the commander is a newbie (this is no bad thing, but he just needs to undestnd a bit the game, so things get easier for aliens ) or the team members just dont listen and try to deathmatch around. Clan matches.....OMFG, marine clan matches are glorious. When you get a good commander (Plague, OverMindX, etc...) you enjoy it ALOT, and its very hard to be beaten by the aliens.
The problem i find is that if marines just sat at their base for long and aliens quickly build 2 hives and start attacking with fade.....marines are gonna play hard to win, but of course, this is just an strategy, ive seen other games where marines just leave their base and quickly build a CC and turrets at one of the hives, and running, camp there. its all strategies.
<!--QuoteBegin--mouth+Nov 20 2002, 07:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mouth @ Nov 20 2002, 07:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A) Aliens do NOT start off with the ability to upgrade. We need a gorge to build towers, which are extremely expensive in the first stages of the game.
B) Getting carapace+cloaking+adrenaline for a fade takes a significant amount of time.
C) Evolving into a fade takes even longer. We could simply run to attack with a skulk, but a skulk running into an HA marine is still a Bad Situation™, even if the skulk has carapace.
D) If you are able to upgrade in the field, then the other team is already pretty screwed to begin with.
Your point about waiting in the marine spawn is worthless. It takes 5 seconds if the commander is on top of things. You're just grasping at straws now.
And secondly, aliens do NOT start off with a pethora of resources. We start off with a maximum limit of 33. In addition to the significant amount of time it takes to aquire enough resources for a hive, aliens also have to wait even LONGER for the hive to actually be built. During this time, we have to also defend it. When the 2nd hive is actually built, aliens then have to wait even LONGER to go from 33 resources to 44. Then they have to wait more to upgrade to carapace and adrenaline. What's more, once they finally DO evolve into fades, they have JACK SQUAT for remaining resources, which means that if you botch up and die (which is extremely possible at that point in the game), they have ANOTHER nice long wait before you can become a fade again. So, YES, we rely on defense turrets. Fades would be a waste of time and resources otherwise, and aliens would have no possible way to counter HA marines.
Bottom line? If you have enough resources to evolve into a fade after dying, that means that your team has the majority of resource vents. That, in turn, means that the alien team is more powerful NOT because of imbalance, but because the marines **obscenity** up multiple times along the way.
It's not like aliens just start the round, instantly become a team full of carapaced, adrenalined, cloaking fades spewing insta-gib acid rockets while going "AHAHAHA, we have no building penalties! Eat **obscenity**!".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you wanna take ME on, eh?
A) A gorge can build a D tower first thing. bam, lvl 1 upgrade. also, they can build many undefended RS towers, because the moment one gets attacked, help comes via vents. Marines need to secure every one, or else they'll just lose it to a lone skulk who like the taste of metal.
B) They only need D and Movement upgrades. cloak is bonus round. Thats 2 hives. By the time aliens have 2 hives, RS isn't really a problem. At least its never been for me. I don't morph into lerk early game.
C) find a vent, find a spot behind some D chambers, whatever. there are TONS of places you would not get caught evolving. Running into a HA as a skulk is nothing. its a free spawn, and if its an upgraded skulk, he already has the RS regenerated by the time hes dead.
D) kinda covered this in C. but really, upgrading takes like 5 seconds, and if the marines are all over the place, so you have nowhere your safe for 5 seconds...well your either just about to lose becuase they control the whole map, or just about to win because they are incredibly disorganized.
E) What if the comm is building up a base, or supporting the front lines with health/ammo. what if he just spent 50 RS on towers, and you have to wait until he can afford stuff for you. What if he just can't afford 50rs per team member, and happens to not choose you? you know, the comms NEVER give me a shotgun. I just want a shotgun, but I'll never get it. however those aliens can upgrade all they want.
F) are you thinking I don't know aliens? I've played alien since day 1. I try to not play aliens now because I'm pretty good, and marines need me on their side(in pubs anyway). Marines have to wait for upgrades and rs to buy them, its no different. I wont even go on with the rest, because it all compares evenly, or is easier, than what marines have to deal with.
** Be nice **
but this all makes no concern to me, I replied for amusement, your uninformed opinions mean pretty close to nothing to me.
Oh please. "Take you on", as if that actually means anything? You think too highly of yourself. If you really want to get into the whole posturing thing, you're small fries compared to what i'm used to.
A) There is rarely a defense tower up the instant a round starts. When there IS one up, skulks have a big chance of dying to LMG/pistol fire, even with carapace. You seem to be under the impression that carapace makes us invincible. ** Be nice **
B) ** Be nice ** What does this have to do with fades being too powerful?
C) It's also a free death. If you run into an HA marine in close quarters as a skulk, you are DEAD. And you sure as hell aren't going to be killing him. It takes a hell of a lot longer to save up the RPs when you're constantly re-getting carapace every 5 seconds. If aliens have RPs to swim in, then the marines have screwed up in getting resource towers of their own. That's THEIR fault, not an imbalance.
<b>** I should be nicer, or I will find new forums to frequent. Rest of post deleted. **</b>
I have to agree with my leader -XtremeX- on this one, listen to the commander, do what he tells you and don't go running off. Stop whining, do your job, and cover your teammates. The ONLY times i've ever seen the Marines win was when they actually worked together and communicate. The microphone is very nice for this and you can get one pretty cheap, but don't tie up the line with a lot of crap.
with experienced teams, evenly laid out maps make a humongous difference. Take bast for example, the first match we play the aliens will win in about 1 minute. All the Aliens have to do is mass skulk rush (spawn hive doesn't really matter) We've had several matches where the marines cant even finish building a portal....it's a poorly made map (strat wise).
NOw for the second match, the aliens will lay back, until marines start to venture out.....to play an actual match
<!--QuoteBegin--MeDiuMRaRe+Nov 22 2002, 10:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MeDiuMRaRe @ Nov 22 2002, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with experienced teams, evenly laid out maps make a humongous difference. Take bast for example, the first match we play the aliens will win in about 1 minute. All the Aliens have to do is mass skulk rush (spawn hive doesn't really matter) We've had several matches where the marines cant even finish building a portal....it's a poorly made map (strat wise). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would make the marine team either stupid or real bad shots. I know I can take down 2 or 3 skulks with the LMG/Pistol when I know WHERE they are coming from and have a rough estimate on WHEN they are coming. Only killing one before dying myself is pretty much bad luck. Dying to a skulk rush just means that either the marines need more practice in the fine art of aiming, need to go solo at the start less, or way too many are building.
NS_Bast <i>can</i> be extremely difficult on the marines. If the Aliens fortify the Airlock, its not going to be pretty for most Marine Teams.
Order of Priority:
1) Secure the Main Hangar with a basic defense. Place redundent Portals (do not packed them together: Ie all your eggs in one place) and secure the Command Chair with a Sentry Turret. Build the Armoury and deploy Welders.
2) Secure the Airlock. This task almost falls before 1), sending Marines to secure and hold it until the welders arrive may be needed and should be seriously considered. The Vent in the Airlock MUST be sealed ASAP, in the event you choose not to hold this area <u>this vent must be denied to the Aliens</u> if you do not wish to be buried under Needle, Gas and Acid Spam. The Airlock Junction provides direct access to the Engine Control HIVE and Refinery.
3) Go after a Hive. Feedwater or Engine Control. The Name of the game is HIVE Control (as it is with any map) and when the game starts its Aliens 1, Marines 0 so do not delay evening out the score. Feedwater is easiest and the most Direct HIVE to reach. Engine Control can be reached by having the Marines climb into the vents near the Main Hangars Cargo Elevator or/and taking the direct route provided by the Airlock Access.
4) Secure Atmospheric Control. There are 2 Resouce Nozzles here which can serve at the basic assurance you'll have enough resources for the rest of the map. Played an extremely difficult game of NS_Bast as the Kharaa, (very good game) the Marines failed to take a single Hive. The Kharaa held them in Atmospheric Control and they never advanced any further. Despite having, what seemed to be control of the map, The Kharaa could not overcome the Marines and their slowly advancing wall of Siege Turrets and Sentry Guns. However, the Marines advance could be measured in Inches and Bodies and for reasons that still confuse my tactical thinking, I do not know how they managed to hold out and put up such a fight with control of only 3 Nozzels. The Map ended in a stalemate (After 2 and a half hours). On a sidenote, the experieced reinforced the critical importance and benefit of contesting the Kharaa and keeping them from a 3rd Hive. This single point, that the Kharaa could not raise the Feedwater Hive long enough to leverage the weight of 3 Hives is the only thing that kept the Marines from failing and being routed. The war for Atmospheric Control was Hell on Earth for Marine and Kharaa alike and the only reason neither team won.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with experienced teams, evenly laid out maps make a humongous difference. Take bast for example, the first match we play the aliens will win in about 1 minute. All the Aliens have to do is mass skulk rush (spawn hive doesn't really matter) We've had several matches where the marines cant even finish building a portal....it's a poorly made map (strat wise).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would make the marine team either stupid or real bad shots. I know I can take down 2 or 3 skulks with the LMG/Pistol when I know WHERE they are coming from and have a rough estimate on WHEN they are coming. Only killing one before dying myself is pretty much bad luck. Dying to a skulk rush just means that either the marines need more practice in the fine art of aiming, need to go solo at the start less, or way too many are building. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. Bast is quite possibly my fav map (or Eclipse), and it's quite easy for marines to hold off a rush. There's really only three ways for the aliens to get in - the vent (most likely), the rotating door (which you'll hear, so not as likely)(the vent is more convenient anyways), and the elevator shaft (more likely if they start in feedwater or use the vents). Even trying to get into that base in late game is a huge pain in the @ss.
I agree with the point about marines "needing to go solo at the start less". As far as I'm concerned, marines shouldn't leave the base until it's either secured or a few people have been designated to be sentrys. Too many people simply want to play this like a typical FPS (<i>ie: chasing down a skulk and gunning it</i>), and hate the idea of sitting around in a base watching the entrances.
Most players seem more intent on gaining more ground rather than keeping the ground they've already gained.
this is a bit off topic.. its a tactic but reflects how powerful marines can get...
have u guys encountered 3-4 HA/HMG marines with welders? with absorbtion of 95%.. and so much armor... they hardly go down... the most important thing is... they weld each other all the time as they r walking down the corridors... it takes like 3 seconds for 0 armor to reach 290 armor.... and probably only onos can bring 290 armor down to 0 in that time.... a fade would probably take ages using hit n run.... there u go.. a bunch of HA/HMG with unlimited armor, stuffing lead everywhere... lerk umbra is cra.p to me... *sum* bullets that pass thru the umbra is definately enuf to kill the lerk *easily* (with HMG)
those aliens out there who encountered such marine groups would know what i mean...
Comments
Ok here is one thing all of you need to know about playing marines. STOP THE ALIENS FROM GETTING RESOURCES. If you're concentrating on just hive's you've got it all wrong. Do you not realize that aliens share from the same resource pool just as you do? If you stop them from getting resource towers you stop their chances at even CREATING a hive. If you could keep them on 2-3 resource towers i gaurantee you wouldn't even have to watch a hive...because they can't even build it! Not to mention the fact that you'll be rolling in the dough yourself and have everyone in HA/HMG in no time. THAT is when you concentrate on hives. If you take a hive and try to fortify it, you leave the aliens wide open to collect resources from all over the map, and then it's only a matter of time. they'll slowly build def/off towers right up to you and then bum rush you with Fade's...regardless if they have the 3rd hive..cause they don't need it. Too many people have the mindset that Hive = teh win. It doesn't. If they want that hive...they'll take it. Cause for you to fortify it enough for them to not take it...then you haven't spent money getting resource towers elsewhere and they already have them. You're screwed.
I've been playing about 8 hours a day for the past week (nothing else to do at the moment..school is slow). I have seen marines dominate and I have seen aliens dominate. When I am a marine, I don't waste too much time asking for HA/HMG. Most likely my commander is busy doing more important things like fortifying a resource tower. Also marines have the respawn time advantage, so the sooner you get out of spawn and back to the action the better. If you waste the commanders time asking for HA/HMG everytime you die (especially if you die a lot), he'll most likely stop giving it to you. I've found the less I ask for HMG the more I get it. As alien I find playing offense and defense to be the same enjoyment for me. I'm an awesome builder IMHO. Our team has won about 90% of the time when I am builder. I take resource towers first and surround them with 2-3 defense chambers (that gives us time to get the the resource tower because of the healing). I ALWAYS build off/def in groups...never sporadically. It's half fear factor. Imagine what a LA marine thinks when he rounds a corner only to see 5-6 off towers staring straight at him (with 3-4 def towers right behind the off towers). Webbing just once or twice right in front of your groups helps a lot too...especially for those pesky HA/HMG'ers. They move slow as it is, and with web they are practically standing still...add to the fact that they might run backwards! Anyways, building bunches = teh win. Building here and their with no def towers = stupid (I see this all the time). One thing I have noticed is if you have one gorge go for only resource towers and the other gorge (usually I do it) heavily fortify your original base by blocking entrences with 5-6 off towers. All the while having skulks/fades annoying the crap out of the marine base. One little tip I find fun to do especially on this one certain map. I forget what it's called. It's the one where you can go "outside" kind of to a balcony type hallway thing with red walls and there's a satallite dish right there. Anways, once I get going with defense as gorge I like to occasionally sneak up to the marine base and heavily web their exits. They really get **obscenity** and usually are hesitant to run into the web in case 2-3 Fades are waiting just outside. Also, put ONE string of web at the bottom of doorways all over the place. You can't see it and most marines hit it everytime.
The game is balanced to me. Even seige cannons are fine to me. It keeps Fade's from using defense towers right outside the marine base and just standing there lobbing in Bile bombs. (I mentioned this earlier.) The problem I see is that people just don't know how to play the game right yet. All it takes is a crappy commander or some idiot spamming "COMMANDER GIMME HA/SHOTGUN/JETPACK IN SPAWN NOW FAJSDKFJSF" and then running off to die in 30 seconds. Or on alien side all it takes is one gorge to waste money by building one off tower here and there or in places that can be easily shot at. Imagine how hard it is to get that in pubs. We don't need health stations in my opinion because marine armor is already better...marine guns are already better...marine spawn times are already better. Sure aliens get on-the-spot health and ammo, but they have 1/4-1/2 the armor and damage.
It will just take time for people to get used to the game. It's almost too early to judge what needs to be fixed IMO. Some things can be blatent obvious, but most of the things people are complaining about shouldn't be messed with yet.
Hmm, post got so long I don't know if I mentioned everything I wanted to. Oh well. Hope some of it helps.
HMG/Jets, however, does. Remember - this game isn't about twitching. It is about forces and strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh....you do know what acid rocket is a projectile, right? I have killed SO many jetpackers with mid-air shots, or any time they come in contact with a wall, I can splash damage them.
So aliens share a "pool?". Basically, upgrades are cheap as hell. 4rs and you have your main combat upgrades, 2 more and you get cloak or something. Whenever I play alien, becoming a fade is almost free. I usually always have enough RS to do it. And the upgrade time is nothing compared to how long you'd need to wait in spawn for your comm to get around to giving you stuff sometimes. Plus, you can upgrade in the field and give yourself a complete heal. "Hey, my Onos is down to 10 health and 0 armor. I'll upgrade to cloaking...........whee, 500 health 200 armor".
Thats what we get for bitching so soon. I think you unbalanced it just to teach the community a lesson. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, thanks for at least acknowledging that it was balanced, as it was before 1.01. However, adding more to the fade is in no way unbalancing it much at all. The game itself right now is just as balanced as it was before. For all of you who just sit there and complain and complain, stop playing, your only ruining the fun for everyone. The whole reason you think its unbalanced is because your not playing with the right teams. If you really want to play NS and have the best experience, play clan play. I can't stress this enough. However, can we please stop complaining, the game is balanced finely, ive own hundreds of marine and alien wins, equally.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the same thought I had, that I wasn't playing with the right teams. Then I played with the right teams, and marines seemed weak. But it wasn't so much the wrong team as the wrong strategy I think.
I think thats where the learning curve in this game is for marines. They need to play with the right team AND have the right strat before they can play the game the way it should be.
It was my thought a while ago that turrets seemed very inefficient in terms of cost:worth. But so are big guns when your fighting skulks. which leaves, really, just going up the tech tree for HA and arms lab upgrades. you don't need hmgs until they have fades. but most comms rush to HMGs and hand them out like nothing.
<b>General things to note for playing marines</b>
* Generally alien hive locations have a resource point next to them so its better to secure that hive and resource point at the very start of the map rather then secure just a lone resource point.
* Commander build 3 respawn pads so if marine group gets ambushed respawns are faster. (most commanders only get two)
* Generally DO NOT get a HMG unless you have HVY armor also. Your chances of dieing as a light with a HMG are just as great as without one. Commanders do not give out HMG's unless you have heavy armor to give them also. Only give out grenade launchers to known skilled players who dont go of on solo rambo missions, and only give them out if absolutely necessary to kill enemy buildings. Otherwise save and tech to heavy armor
* Do not OVER turret an area, generally have a max of two turrets covering each side of the turret factory and 1-2 covering each side of resource towers. By covering i mean 2 in the line of sight so for the BEST FORMATION picture a box around the turret factory, each corner of the box is a turret so that each turret can see 2 sides of the factory. You can put an extra turret on the side the aliens will enter the room from. If you have any more than 5-6 turrets then its worth getting a second factory to protect your investment.
* RUSH fades! If your team doesnt have heavy armor and hmg or if low on resources then respawn, go through phase gate to combat area and rush the fade attacking the area. Dont even bother to stop for ammo, once you waste your LMG clip fast switch to pistol and keep shooting. Die and repeat, you'll be suprised how easy it is to take the fade out. If you do have HMG and HVY armor then god damn rush the hell out of the fade, if your teammates do the same you will easily take the fade(s) out. However if say there is a group of 3-4 fades together then different tactics are needed ( see below)
* If you have the 3rd hive turreted and the aliens have the other two and your 3rd hive is under attack by multiple fades then have a couple of marines stay at that hive and defend it, their job is to basically slow the fades down so they cant take the hive out so fast . Repair the turrets/factory, lay down suppresion fire and rushing are all good tactics to slow the fades down. Meanwhile WHOIS DEFENDING THE OTHER TWO HIVES FOR THE ALIENS IF THEY ARE ALL ATTACKING THE 3RD HIVE!?!? Seems to me like an excellent oppertunity to send a squad of marines to one of the other 2 alien hives (the easier to get to and least turreted one would be nice, which is usually their 2nd hive not their main one). DO NOT ATTACK THE HIVE(or any other alien structure if possible) this will alert all the aliens and your marine squad will soon be dead. If teh alien hive is undefended then build a turret factory. Upgrade to siege as soon as its done, get some turrets around and a phase gate. Then use sieges to kill the hive whilst your marines/turrets protect the sieges from the multiple fades that will apear. Once the hive is dead then RUSH THE HELL OUT OF THE FADES and kill them. Remember when doing this tactic try not to attack ANY alien buildings as this will alert the aliens. Generally you can have a factory and siege killing their hive by the time the aliens even know your there. Hopefully the other hive you had before is still secured, if not then again move all but 2 marines back to that hive to retake it. Other 2 marines secure the hive you just took.
*If you as a marine walk around a corner and see a million offense chambers then dont immediately attack them. If possible look for another way around, if you attack you will just alert aliens to your presence, if possible get a grenade launcher and a teammate to back you up wiht a HMG, as you take the chambers out your teammate protects you. Alternatively if its not in the middle of nowhere setup a turret factory and siege them down. If they start turreting outside of your main base or any other base then do not attack the towers (unless there are only one or two in which case rush and kill the gorg building them) but generally just let the gorg there build as many towers as he wants and go out a different way. Later on or if the aliens start useing the chambers to attack the base then upgrade to siege and take them out. Not only will it have been a waste of time/resources for the gorg the siege cannons may also kill a few aliens in the area if they are useing them to heal <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
* After one hive is secure then securing the next one is NO.1 priority. Generally do not try to secure two hives at once as most of the time you will lose many resources when your builders gets ambushed.
* If there is a double resource point then secure that first, have marines in one group to do so.
10 minuites later, everything was gone. They had HA/HMG Shotguns and the whatnot. Siege took out the Chambers and they completely decimated us.
They had a smart commander and they played it cool.
Fades are indestructable, a few shotgun blasts and they will fall.
The fact is most marines are just sprayers, that why they suck with the HMG, "OMG THERES AN ALIEN!! SPRASPRASSPRAYSPRASYSDPRAY"
Its so lame the way ppl just come and complain cus they cant win in a few games they've played. Get over it, marines are equally balanced so stop whinging about it and learn how to play instead. The changes in 1.01 were made due to Flay viewing a few high-level clan games NOT because ppl were whining.
You've only been playing the game a few weeks and already everyone seems to know more about it than the playtesters that have been playing for months and months.
THE GAME IS BLANCED GET OVER IT.
I mean HMG/HA can't beat a fade i mean wtf lol....
Marines are so much easier to use than aliens its not even funny, I mean theres no scope whatsoever for tactical fitesse when all you've got is a big gun and a load of armour. All u gotta do is run about, don't get caugh out, and HIT things instead of spraying your **obscenity** off and DONT PLAY RAMBO.
And as for the jetpack / shotgun combo, I mean its not exactly hard to kill ppl when the only 2 types of aliens that can kill you are fades and lerks. Hovering above CC only aliens and shooting at them takes so much skill....
Shooting things is easy peasy, working as an effective team is the hard part.
Don't complain, heavy armour and heavy machineguns are the easiest things in the world to use, the real hard part of being a marine is working together properly Mr. Rambo.
Theres nothing that feels better than slowly picking off a stupid marine thats gone AWOL and is miles away for, his team just because hes got Heavy armour or a big gun and thinks hes a one man army.
Plsplspls really do shutup and just play and you'll see. I've played against some good marines teams on more exclusive servers and the game is certainly balanced and i'd say its a lot easier for marines to win with just a little bit of tactics than it is for aliens to beat a well organised marine team.
Its just so funny they way people keep moaning when anyone whos played in a proper game can see that its balanced.
Another thing is that everytime marines lose, its cus the damn game is inblanced, not because they suck or they're commander is rubbish, or the aliens got organised and killed them, its cus the game is imblanced... right?
what are you supposed to do when you see an alien. I don't think our guns have a special burst fire accuracy. so as long as your crosshair is on the alien, your doing the best you possibly can. am I supposed to rush in for close range fighting vs fade with no armor or heavy weapon? wait, nevermind, I told you to shut up. so stay shut.
aliens aren't overpowered as it has been stated before, they can easily loose as teh marines. i've had many games where i've lost against marines. most of the time it was due to our lack of scouting for arising siege bases by our 2nd hive while we were concentrating elsewhere.
Unfortunately, my experience only deals with public games (no clan just yet). Let me analyze my views on different stages of a common match scenario. Although this is a rather specific analyzation of a possible match, I also comment on several comparisons regarding team balance.
Match Start: Singlehandedly, I've killed six skulks at once during an opening skulk rush. On the otherhand, many a time, I've seen the skulk rush win the game within the first couple of minutes. After the skulk rush and the marines' original base building, each team's expansion rate seems to be nearly identical. The marines tend to expand with slightly better defenses in place, but a good team of skulks and lerks can easily suppress, slow, and basically neutralize the marine expansion. If the turret factory going down didn't cause all turrets to go offline, I believe aliens would have a hard time slowing the marine expansion. <i>Each team's expansion rate and their starting strengths/weaknesses are balanced.</i>
Second Hive Up/Marine Hold Third Hive (Equal Mid-Game): Eesh, this can be a tough spot for the aliens to be in. The marines likely have heavy armor, and the aliens are likely using fades. I find a fade versus heavy armor situation to be in the fade's favor, but not by much. Really, it depends on the environment. On eclipse, in the area near the computer core (I believe) that contains several walls, I've killed three grouped heavies at once using the awesome cover there along with scent of fear to note the marine's positions. But on the other hand, moving down a long hallway without cover or being in any kind of open room gives the fade a HUGE disadvantage while fighting a heavy-armored marine. <i>Fade versus heavy-armor is balanced.</i> Hell, I've seen plenty of well-skilled heavy-armored marines fall to a lone skulk in an open hallway as well as plenty of well-skilled Onos fall to lone light-armored marines.
Endgame: Okay, by this point of the game, things SHOULD be unbalanced. One team should be strong enough to overcome the other team relatively quickly and get the match over with. And as a side note, stop complaining about unfair teams near the end of a match when your team's loss is basically guaranteed. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
All in all, <i>NS is as balanced as it could possibly be</i> and I friggin' love it.
A) Aliens do NOT start off with the ability to upgrade. We need a gorge to build towers, which are extremely expensive in the first stages of the game.
B) Getting carapace+cloaking+adrenaline for a fade takes a significant amount of time.
C) Evolving into a fade takes even longer. We could simply run to attack with a skulk, but a skulk running into an HA marine is still a Bad Situation™, even if the skulk has carapace.
D) If you are able to upgrade in the field, then the other team is already pretty screwed to begin with.
Your point about waiting in the marine spawn is worthless. It takes 5 seconds if the commander is on top of things. You're just grasping at straws now.
And secondly, aliens do NOT start off with a pethora of resources. We start off with a maximum limit of 33. In addition to the significant amount of time it takes to aquire enough resources for a hive, aliens also have to wait even LONGER for the hive to actually be built. During this time, we have to also defend it. When the 2nd hive is actually built, aliens then have to wait even LONGER to go from 33 resources to 44. Then they have to wait more to upgrade to carapace and adrenaline. What's more, once they finally DO evolve into fades, they have JACK SQUAT for remaining resources, which means that if you botch up and die (which is extremely possible at that point in the game), they have ANOTHER nice long wait before you can become a fade again. So, YES, we rely on defense turrets. Fades would be a waste of time and resources otherwise, and aliens would have no possible way to counter HA marines.
Bottom line? If you have enough resources to evolve into a fade after dying, that means that your team has the majority of resource vents. That, in turn, means that the alien team is more powerful NOT because of imbalance, but because the marines **obscenity** up multiple times along the way.
It's not like aliens just start the round, instantly become a team full of carapaced, adrenalined, cloaking fades spewing insta-gib acid rockets while going "AHAHAHA, we have no building penalties! Eat **obscenity**!".
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Well hello there mister <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->. I see you have a fine idea about Fades.
If a lone fade happens to find a lone HAHMG, what should the fade do? Unless the HAHMG is a newbie, you might as well fire a few acids and run back to the nearest defense to heal, you have little chance of winning a fight with a marine decked out with armor and weapons. If the acid rockets (melee is pointless, though the damage is better, you're dead in 2 seconds with that HMG) didn't suck up your energy faster than a really fast thing, the situation might be different.
This is the KEY to the marine team. The marines have a much higher learning curve and you have to have a good commander. I was playing today and we, the marines, were getting the snot kicked out of use. Until we had a commander that KNEW what he was doing show up. We ran roughshod over the same alien team 3 matches in a row.
It's really hard to tell what the blance is, but the game is so damn fun...WHO CARES? I have fun losing!!
The thought of getting pushed back to a last strong point getting assaulted by wave after wave of aliens was fun as hell!!
"Look man, I only need to know one thing....where...they...are!"
This is SO true. I had a group today fall into the trap of long range blasting with a fade that kept coming up, popping into the room, then running away to heal. He was doing massive damage. I then decided to take matters into my own hands. I gather two more marines and flanked him. We waited until he was coming back from one of his raids and took him down quite quickly. Don't fight fades on THEIR terms, you will loose.
I also hear crying about combined arms. Use it, it works. Give one guy a grenade launcher and he can take care of the umbra'd fades while everyone else mops up the sulks and lerks.
This game is about tactics and the marines have to use a lot more of them.
Marines need to have a good commander(IT IS CRUCIAL) and it seems to me that most commanders dont know what they're doing.. I think everyone should read stratgeies for it.. you cant just go in and do the team good. Sure good fighters are important, but without a good commander it is nearly impossible.. It is'nt easy to change commanders.. It is easy to change into a gorge (the alien commander)
also lets not forget that the skulks are really quick and do a lot of damage.. comparded to the Marines starting it's very hard... and nearly no one is used to attacking these super quick targets that are after you.
I find thta most good players prefere aliens because of how different they are.. marines get boring.
If both teams had equally good fighters and builders the marines would have a good chance.
However I have witnessed a few wins by the marines due to having a strong team and quickly expanding.
The marines have a harder learning curve from the teamwork/commanding perspective.
Exactly...this pisses me off too and I'm NOT a commander! I did something novel tonight and it worked out VERY well.
I played supply sergaent. I took it upon myself to do the following things...
A. Stay at main base to build things. I flat out told new recruits to move out and leave the building to me. One person building saves hassle of keeping track of what needs build/repaired and keeps bodies in the field.
B. I directed traffic. Thats right, I followed and worked with the commander and when he was setting something up, I directed which way the marines should go. I also formed them into groups. As they returned to the main base, I told them to wait and go in twos and threes. Belive it or not, they acutally listened and followed directions!
C. I handed out weapons the commander made. I would direct guys to pick up certain things if they didnt see it. I also made sure guys didnt leave the spawn without ammo. I watched guys spawn and if they started to run out without visiting the armory, I'd give them a reminder. I know many of you have done this.
D. I played base defense. With my eyes and ears on the base, I could call for back up and leave the commander doing his job. I took responsiblity for defending the base and the command pod.
E. I worked as a liason with the field troops answering questions about what was available at base without them bugging the commander all the time.
F. I kept a welder handy, so when guys phased in to rearm...I was there repairing armor. That was a HUGE help.
G. Other miscellaneous tasks...welding doors/ports, checking up on resouces, repairing base equipment, etc.
At the end of the game, the commander was very pleased. He said it helped tremendously.
ARRGH! See? Turret Creeping!
Right, my theory is this. If a mod is set up perfectly (and needs no more tweaking) it should play like the situtation would in real life. (Well, as close as you can get with 9 foot cloaking aliens)
This is why I reckon something is wrong, as in the same situation, would the marines go moving, corner by corner, deploying a sentry gun (or 10!) at EVERY SINGLE ONE? No.
Plus, doesn't turret creeping feel like you've missed the best bit of the game? The actual fighting the aliens bit? Because what seems to always happen, is that the aliens (in that situation) don't lose to your great teamwork or nice accuracy, they just lose to the fact that Marines can rushbuild structures.
In which case, you're defying the whole point of the mod, IMO.
The problem i find is that if marines just sat at their base for long and aliens quickly build 2 hives and start attacking with fade.....marines are gonna play hard to win, but of course, this is just an strategy, ive seen other games where marines just leave their base and quickly build a CC and turrets at one of the hives, and running, camp there. its all strategies.
B) Getting carapace+cloaking+adrenaline for a fade takes a significant amount of time.
C) Evolving into a fade takes even longer. We could simply run to attack with a skulk, but a skulk running into an HA marine is still a Bad Situation™, even if the skulk has carapace.
D) If you are able to upgrade in the field, then the other team is already pretty screwed to begin with.
Your point about waiting in the marine spawn is worthless. It takes 5 seconds if the commander is on top of things. You're just grasping at straws now.
And secondly, aliens do NOT start off with a pethora of resources. We start off with a maximum limit of 33. In addition to the significant amount of time it takes to aquire enough resources for a hive, aliens also have to wait even LONGER for the hive to actually be built. During this time, we have to also defend it. When the 2nd hive is actually built, aliens then have to wait even LONGER to go from 33 resources to 44. Then they have to wait more to upgrade to carapace and adrenaline. What's more, once they finally DO evolve into fades, they have JACK SQUAT for remaining resources, which means that if you botch up and die (which is extremely possible at that point in the game), they have ANOTHER nice long wait before you can become a fade again. So, YES, we rely on defense turrets. Fades would be a waste of time and resources otherwise, and aliens would have no possible way to counter HA marines.
Bottom line? If you have enough resources to evolve into a fade after dying, that means that your team has the majority of resource vents. That, in turn, means that the alien team is more powerful NOT because of imbalance, but because the marines **obscenity** up multiple times along the way.
It's not like aliens just start the round, instantly become a team full of carapaced, adrenalined, cloaking fades spewing insta-gib acid rockets while going "AHAHAHA, we have no building penalties! Eat **obscenity**!".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you wanna take ME on, eh?
A) A gorge can build a D tower first thing. bam, lvl 1 upgrade. also, they can build many undefended RS towers, because the moment one gets attacked, help comes via vents. Marines need to secure every one, or else they'll just lose it to a lone skulk who like the taste of metal.
B) They only need D and Movement upgrades. cloak is bonus round. Thats 2 hives. By the time aliens have 2 hives, RS isn't really a problem. At least its never been for me. I don't morph into lerk early game.
C) find a vent, find a spot behind some D chambers, whatever. there are TONS of places you would not get caught evolving. Running into a HA as a skulk is nothing. its a free spawn, and if its an upgraded skulk, he already has the RS regenerated by the time hes dead.
D) kinda covered this in C. but really, upgrading takes like 5 seconds, and if the marines are all over the place, so you have nowhere your safe for 5 seconds...well your either just about to lose becuase they control the whole map, or just about to win because they are incredibly disorganized.
E) What if the comm is building up a base, or supporting the front lines with health/ammo. what if he just spent 50 RS on towers, and you have to wait until he can afford stuff for you. What if he just can't afford 50rs per team member, and happens to not choose you? you know, the comms NEVER give me a shotgun. I just want a shotgun, but I'll never get it. however those aliens can upgrade all they want.
F) are you thinking I don't know aliens? I've played alien since day 1. I try to not play aliens now because I'm pretty good, and marines need me on their side(in pubs anyway).
Marines have to wait for upgrades and rs to buy them, its no different. I wont even go on with the rest, because it all compares evenly, or is easier, than what marines have to deal with.
** Be nice **
but this all makes no concern to me, I replied for amusement, your uninformed opinions mean pretty close to nothing to me.
Have a nice day.
A) There is rarely a defense tower up the instant a round starts. When there IS one up, skulks have a big chance of dying to LMG/pistol fire, even with carapace. You seem to be under the impression that carapace makes us invincible. ** Be nice **
B) ** Be nice ** What does this have to do with fades being too powerful?
C) It's also a free death. If you run into an HA marine in close quarters as a skulk, you are DEAD. And you sure as hell aren't going to be killing him. It takes a hell of a lot longer to save up the RPs when you're constantly re-getting carapace every 5 seconds. If aliens have RPs to swim in, then the marines have screwed up in getting resource towers of their own. That's THEIR fault, not an imbalance.
<b>** I should be nicer, or I will find new forums to frequent. Rest of post deleted. **</b>
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______ <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
NOw for the second match, the aliens will lay back, until marines start to venture out.....to play an actual match
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That would make the marine team either stupid or real bad shots. I know I can take down 2 or 3 skulks with the LMG/Pistol when I know WHERE they are coming from and have a rough estimate on WHEN they are coming. Only killing one before dying myself is pretty much bad luck. Dying to a skulk rush just means that either the marines need more practice in the fine art of aiming, need to go solo at the start less, or way too many are building.
Order of Priority:
1) Secure the Main Hangar with a basic defense. Place redundent Portals (do not packed them together: Ie all your eggs in one place) and secure the Command Chair with a Sentry Turret. Build the Armoury and deploy Welders.
2) Secure the Airlock. This task almost falls before 1), sending Marines to secure and hold it until the welders arrive may be needed and should be seriously considered. The Vent in the Airlock MUST be sealed ASAP, in the event you choose not to hold this area <u>this vent must be denied to the Aliens</u> if you do not wish to be buried under Needle, Gas and Acid Spam. The Airlock Junction provides direct access to the Engine Control HIVE and Refinery.
3) Go after a Hive. Feedwater or Engine Control. The Name of the game is HIVE Control (as it is with any map) and when the game starts its Aliens 1, Marines 0 so do not delay evening out the score. Feedwater is easiest and the most Direct HIVE to reach. Engine Control can be reached by having the Marines climb into the vents near the Main Hangars Cargo Elevator or/and taking the direct route provided by the Airlock Access.
4) Secure Atmospheric Control. There are 2 Resouce Nozzles here which can serve at the basic assurance you'll have enough resources for the rest of the map. Played an extremely difficult game of NS_Bast as the Kharaa, (very good game) the Marines failed to take a single Hive. The Kharaa held them in Atmospheric Control and they never advanced any further. Despite having, what seemed to be control of the map, The Kharaa could not overcome the Marines and their slowly advancing wall of Siege Turrets and Sentry Guns. However, the Marines advance could be measured in Inches and Bodies and for reasons that still confuse my tactical thinking, I do not know how they managed to hold out and put up such a fight with control of only 3 Nozzels. The Map ended in a stalemate (After 2 and a half hours). On a sidenote, the experieced reinforced the critical importance and benefit of contesting the Kharaa and keeping them from a 3rd Hive. This single point, that the Kharaa could not raise the Feedwater Hive long enough to leverage the weight of 3 Hives is the only thing that kept the Marines from failing and being routed. The war for Atmospheric Control was Hell on Earth for Marine and Kharaa alike and the only reason neither team won.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->with experienced teams, evenly laid out maps make a humongous difference. Take bast for example, the first match we play the aliens will win in about 1 minute. All the Aliens have to do is mass skulk rush (spawn hive doesn't really matter) We've had several matches where the marines cant even finish building a portal....it's a poorly made map (strat wise).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would make the marine team either stupid or real bad shots. I know I can take down 2 or 3 skulks with the LMG/Pistol when I know WHERE they are coming from and have a rough estimate on WHEN they are coming. Only killing one before dying myself is pretty much bad luck. Dying to a skulk rush just means that either the marines need more practice in the fine art of aiming, need to go solo at the start less, or way too many are building. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. Bast is quite possibly my fav map (or Eclipse), and it's quite easy for marines to hold off a rush. There's really only three ways for the aliens to get in - the vent (most likely), the rotating door (which you'll hear, so not as likely)(the vent is more convenient anyways), and the elevator shaft (more likely if they start in feedwater or use the vents). Even trying to get into that base in late game is a huge pain in the @ss.
I agree with the point about marines "needing to go solo at the start less". As far as I'm concerned, marines shouldn't leave the base until it's either secured or a few people have been designated to be sentrys. Too many people simply want to play this like a typical FPS (<i>ie: chasing down a skulk and gunning it</i>), and hate the idea of sitting around in a base watching the entrances.
Most players seem more intent on gaining more ground rather than keeping the ground they've already gained.
have u guys encountered 3-4 HA/HMG marines with welders? with absorbtion of 95%.. and so much armor... they hardly go down...
the most important thing is... they weld each other all the time as they r walking down the corridors... it takes like 3 seconds for 0 armor to reach 290 armor.... and probably only onos can bring 290 armor down to 0 in that time.... a fade would probably take ages using hit n run....
there u go.. a bunch of HA/HMG with unlimited armor, stuffing lead everywhere...
lerk umbra is cra.p to me... *sum* bullets that pass thru the umbra is definately enuf to kill the lerk *easily* (with HMG)
those aliens out there who encountered such marine groups would know what i mean...