Is That A Script?
MrBen
ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Lets see...</div> In light of the thread currently going on <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95355' target='_blank'>here</a> i thought it'd be interesting to see if people can actually recognise scripts in action or if they simply just cry wolf and hope for the best. I don't know what to expect from this thread, maybe it'll be hella obvious, maybe people won't have a clue. Lets find out.
I have devised a simple test, i have uploaded a bunch of demos to <a href='http://www.nude-soiree.net/demos/script.zip' target='_blank'>here</a>. These demos are of me doing a series of things, sometimes with a script, sometimes without. I've decided that for this test i'd use the following scripts: a 3jump, a pistol script and a blink swipe script. It should be quite clear from the name of the demos which one involves which.
<b>The pistol script:</b>
alias +pistol "+attack; wait; -attack"
alias -pistol "+attack; wait; -attack"
There are two demos for this. In one I have no script, in the other I use a pistol script. Do i suddenly unload my clip faster? You tell me.
<b>The 3jump script:</b>
alias +3hop "+jump;wait;-jump;wait;+jump;wait;-jump;wait;+jump"
alias -3hop "-jump"
There are three demos for this. In one i use a 3jump script, in one i use my mousewheel and in the other i randomly switch between the two. Can you figure out when i'm scripting and when I'm not?
<b>The blink swipe/adrenaline management script</b>
alias +blink "slot2; wait; +attack"
alias -blink "-attack; wait; slot1; wait; +attack; wait; -attack;"
Again there are 3 demos for this. In one i script, in two i fade normally. Which one is the script?
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I'd really like to see if people are able to spot the script or not and if possible I'd like most replies to be kept to people just saying which demos they think i was scripting in. Once i get a bunch of replies I'll give out the answers. I think this should be interesting, if scripting is an issue as people make out then i imagine the answer will be obvious. Of course this is just me scripting and I have only used 3 different scripts, others may be more obvious, with some people it might also be more obvious as to which is the script. Anyway. HF and GL.
EDIT: For clarification, the blink swipe script can be used to blink swipe, i just used to it to do adrenaline management. To explain what the script does, you hold mouse 2 and you blink, when you let go it switches to slot1, you can then swipe and press mouse 2 to switch back to blink and run away.
I have devised a simple test, i have uploaded a bunch of demos to <a href='http://www.nude-soiree.net/demos/script.zip' target='_blank'>here</a>. These demos are of me doing a series of things, sometimes with a script, sometimes without. I've decided that for this test i'd use the following scripts: a 3jump, a pistol script and a blink swipe script. It should be quite clear from the name of the demos which one involves which.
<b>The pistol script:</b>
alias +pistol "+attack; wait; -attack"
alias -pistol "+attack; wait; -attack"
There are two demos for this. In one I have no script, in the other I use a pistol script. Do i suddenly unload my clip faster? You tell me.
<b>The 3jump script:</b>
alias +3hop "+jump;wait;-jump;wait;+jump;wait;-jump;wait;+jump"
alias -3hop "-jump"
There are three demos for this. In one i use a 3jump script, in one i use my mousewheel and in the other i randomly switch between the two. Can you figure out when i'm scripting and when I'm not?
<b>The blink swipe/adrenaline management script</b>
alias +blink "slot2; wait; +attack"
alias -blink "-attack; wait; slot1; wait; +attack; wait; -attack;"
Again there are 3 demos for this. In one i script, in two i fade normally. Which one is the script?
--------------------------------
I'd really like to see if people are able to spot the script or not and if possible I'd like most replies to be kept to people just saying which demos they think i was scripting in. Once i get a bunch of replies I'll give out the answers. I think this should be interesting, if scripting is an issue as people make out then i imagine the answer will be obvious. Of course this is just me scripting and I have only used 3 different scripts, others may be more obvious, with some people it might also be more obvious as to which is the script. Anyway. HF and GL.
EDIT: For clarification, the blink swipe script can be used to blink swipe, i just used to it to do adrenaline management. To explain what the script does, you hold mouse 2 and you blink, when you let go it switches to slot1, you can then swipe and press mouse 2 to switch back to blink and run away.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
you will have practiced each of these things without and with scripts to an extent. people who havnt practiced will be able to reach the standard you are at without half the practice by using scripts. i havnt looked at the demos to see if they are in action or you just blinking around a map feeling pretty, but scripts like the blink swipe has less chance of flipping up as it needs less coordination so this demo wouldnt really mean anything.
one persons ability change from non scripts to scripts doesnt mean anything, its the majority that matters, upload 2 demo's for a sample of about 20 people for each script and THEN it will be worth even considering the links, otherwise its just you showing off.
If they can't, it also goes a long way to showing why people might if given the choice use scripts rather than not. If there is no clear visible advantage in the demos (I dunno maybe there is, you tell me) then why should people not be permitted to use scripts if thats their wish. I already stated that this is just for me and things will vary from user to user but the variance isn't going to be huge. It's not like the script will suddenly do different things for different people. I'm just your average clanner trying to understand a point of view.
And no the demos aren't from in action, i can hardly create a controlled enviroment to compare the two in public play. Maybe you should also watch the demos, if the blink swipe script requires less co-ordination then i guess you should be able to tell me which one it is.
The only script I've ever used is 9jump (nine, lol). This is becuase I grew up with the mwheel changing weapons. With bs on it's a mild annoyance- all I do is press a key on my keyboard, and mouse2 and mwheel changes to +jump.
As for your other 2 scripts, I've not used a pistol script, but I'm often accussed of using one- I think you can fire pretty damn fast if you don't lift your finger off mouse1 too much between shots, and you've ever played an old skool game (i.e. any old athletics game) where slamming buttons as fast as possible was the order of the day.
As for blinking, mine is something similar:
alias "+blink" "slot2"
alias "-blink" "lastinv"
bind "mouse2" "+blink"
but this doesn't swipe for you, and passes bs. Simply left clicking after double clicking has the same effect (wow, big dif!).
I hate voogru for adding scripts- I've only ever used one, but I know so many people who quit NS becuase they were blocked. I don't think they play the game for you. If you are a crap fade, then you are a crap fade regardless of whether you have to press 2 or 3 buttons to blink and swipe. I also think scripts reduce your flexibility. The silver lining on this cloud, however, is that he made mp_bs becuase a skulk constantly killed him <b> by biting him mid-leap, omg this must be scripts/hax!!!</b>. I don't know whether this is just hear-say or truth, but it gives me some comfort.
Everyone has their opinion on what killed NS, and I think they are all crap reasons (combat, lack of dev news, etc...). I don't think any one things killed this game off, but mp_bs didn't help, imho.
this is one person like we have both stated, it means N O T H I N G. its not even worth being in a test, ffs compare the worlds best non scripter to the worlds worst scripter!? MAYBE THAT'LL BE USEFULL TOO.. get a clue Ben. If you have spent long enough playing without scripts then half the reason people dont like scripts can't be talked about. show me a completely new NSPlayer using scripts and not using scripts and then MAYBE it would have a TINY bit of relevance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I already stated that this is just for me and things will vary from user to user but the variance isn't going to be huge. It's not like the script will suddenly do different things for different people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
prove that please.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm just your average clanner trying to understand a point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then you are a LONG way off.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And no the demos aren't from in action, i can hardly create a controlled enviroment to compare the two in public play. Maybe you should also watch the demos, if the blink swipe script requires less co-ordination then i guess you should be able to tell me which one it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow did you read more than 2 words from each sentance i put before? you have practiced without scripts blink swipe so it means **** all for one. for two the coordination comes into effect when IN action as you have other things to thing about apart from "WALL THERE".. but then you ARE the best fade in EU so you wouldnt notice that.
So you think if i take a random player, give him a bunch of scripts and his skill level will improve? Okay, lets find out. There are enough **** NSplayers out there that im sure we can get one on IRC, give him a bunch of scripts and watch his skill level increase. I'm actually quite eager to see if thats the case, I really don't expect it to be though. Here's why: Firstly, the pistol script still requires aim. This is something most new players lack, hell, even people like you and I who have been playing for a long time still lack. We've all played enough public and seen enough bad players, even if they have to click less I don't forsee a great increase in aim. I mean with the LMG you just hold a button but you can still bhop new NSplayers down.
As for the fade blink swipe whatever script. I don't see it really helping, see to be a good fade you still have to understand air control and have half a brain. If anything it could cause more issues where the guy is trying to swipe when he'd rather be running away or running away when he wants to be swiping. I doubt he'll suddenly master the art of hit and run because he has to press a few less buttons.
Oh and the guy can't bunnyhop anyway so giving him a 3jump won't make an ounce of flipping difference. So what's your reasoning for your statement? Assuming you have any and aren't just spamming caps and insults to hide the fact.
Prove what please? That scripts do the same things on different PCs. Well, lump, it spams the same commands, it's not going to suddenly turn 3jumps into pistol scripts and vica versa. Oh man hyperbole owns, I'll dignify you with a real response when you do the same to me.
As for the blink swipe fade fiasco. I'm honoured you're such a fanboy of my fading, honestly, i get all warm and tingly inside when you say such kind things to me. However, that doesn't really answer the question of which demo i'm scripting in. Yes I can fade without it, but i've taken a script off the internet, like any other player and i've put it on my computer and faded with it. Even with what i know about fading already i find it horribly bad, I wonder how a complete cripple with no understanding of air control would fair with it, probably a bit worse. Why don't you fire it up yourself and lets see.
Odds are a fade who has to use scripts to metab and blinkswipe doesn't understand the game itself well enough to be a good player, because NO cal fade that I know of that is halfway decent uses it.
with quick wepswitch on and mouse wheel bound to slot 1 2 and 3 (mousew up, mousew down, and mouew click)
then i placed a keyboard key for the less used, and less combat based slot 4.
xeno used by me before i jump from a corner, webbing often used pre fight, primal (i'm not good enough to use it in a fight) and acid rocket at extreme range.
rines have wielder (post fight), mine (pre fight) and grenade (useless <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
with this setup? i can quickly rip out my pistol for a last few shots on a target or a snipe, i can (xeno) leap bite, and even like a armor 3 rine quickly. i can fade blink swipe meta without breaking into a sweat, hell, it probably is only weaker than scripting as a matter of opinion due to loosing the mouse wheel for b hop, which i cant do for the life of me anyway.
The truth is, if you're not ignorant, and you're educated, you will understand why bs0 is superior to bs1. We really really really don't need to keep beating our heads against this wall do we?
The reason scripters are better than non scripters is because they've spent a ton more time in the game. People in top tier teams have played ns like its a part/full time job for over a year. If you play ns for fun an hour or two every couple nights, you are going to get owned, and you don't stand a chance, and nothing will save you.
And thats really what it comes down to isn't it? Skill? You're mad cause you think the person you're competing with has unearned skill? Let me assure you they've paid countless hours of their life for that skill, they didn't code it.
The truth is, if you're not ignorant, and you're educated, you will understand why bs0 is superior to bs1. We really really really don't need to keep beating our heads against this wall do we?
The reason scripters are better than non scripters is because they've spent a ton more time in the game. People in top tier teams have played ns like its a part/full time job for over a year. If you play ns for fun an hour or two every couple nights, you are going to get owned, and you don't stand a chance, and nothing will save you.
And thats really what it comes down to isn't it? Skill? You're mad cause you think the person you're competing with has unearned skill? Let me assure you they've paid countless hours of their life for that skill, they didn't code it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if I slap my keys the right way and cry to the devs I can get my way! Wahhh!
(Well, I didn't check your blink/swipe script. If it auto-swipes after every blink, they might be able to tell on that one because you'll be swiping for no reason at all -- which would make you a WORSE fade then w/o the script.)
------------ BELOW THIS, NOT DIRECT ANSWER TO QUESTION ------------
A good player is likely to be called a "scripter!" even when MP_BS is on.
A newer player using scripts to help him overcome the huge learning curve in NS will STILL be a newer player, but won't be quite as frustrated with NS.
That's what makes this whole debate so ridiculous -- people think MP_BS protects them from super-fades who have no skills. In reality, barring hacks (which are SEPARATE from scripts), there ARE NO SUPER-FADES WITHOUT SKILLS. Even if they have scripts.
leave my gramma out of this <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->, if any parts are unclear just ask and ill try to explain what i mean. quote the random points too me also and i'll back them up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you think if i take a random player, give him a bunch of scripts and his skill level will improve? Okay, lets find out. There are enough **** NSplayers out there that im sure we can get one on IRC, give him a bunch of scripts and watch his skill level increase.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its easier to aim when your not spamming a key as many times. I think its easier to coordinate only 1 or 2 buttons instead of 3 or 4. I think its easier to time space bar bhopping with a script than without.. please correct any of these if you think they are wrong.
All the small changes will improve the player. the **** NSPlayer may not be able to aim too well but if he can get 2 or 3 bullets on with a pistol normally (without scripts), that can turn to 4 or 6 with a pistol scrip and end up being a dead skulk.. every difference counts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I doubt he'll suddenly master the art of hit and run because he has to press a few less buttons<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it all helps, having to coordinate ur fingers to quickly switching between the slots is quite tricky to grasp for people at 1st who dont have the experience with it and a script just removes half the difficulty in doing that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what's your reasoning for your statement? Assuming you have any and aren't just spamming caps and insults to hide the fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
which statement? Ben i only spammed caps because you chose to ignore half of what i said in my 1st reply.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Prove what please? That scripts do the same things on different PCs. Well, lump, it spams the same commands, it's not going to suddenly turn 3jumps into pistol scripts and vica versa. Oh man hyperbole owns, I'll dignify you with a real response when you do the same to me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i thought you meant that scripts would make one person improve and not effect another, as that would of made sense for what you where talking about, knowing the logic you've used so far. My bad. no scripts dont have a different effect on different PC's, you're right! so whats that got to do with anything?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes I can fade without it, but i've taken a script off the internet, like any other player and i've put it on my computer and faded with it. Even with what i know about fading already i find it horribly bad, I wonder how a complete cripple with no understanding of air control would fair with it, probably a bit worse. Why don't you fire it up yourself and lets see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you get used to one way of doing things its hard to change, that would have some say in your case.
There are more than one script for fading.
You know ive tried using a blink swipe blah blah script on a server too see the difference, as an unexperienced fade it helped me with my coordination and energy conservation quite a lot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well we've sucessfully derailed this thread from it's initially intention
I'm just your average clanner trying to understand a point of view.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was only trying to help you with that benny boy
EASIER? More like the difference between having fun and spending night after night practicing jump timing.
Something as integral to the game as bhop should be ACCESSIBLY easy to do, especially when you have a choice of using mwheel too, over which 3jump has NO advantage.
The most common advantage that give a blink-swipe script is the abitlity to do "this" when you are really close to a marins.
I use the "mwheeldown" for +jump and mwheelup for "slot1". That makes me able to switch weapon easily after a blink. But i never be able to do a blink then change weapon and swipe in close combat. I use blink to cieling then blink back to ground and swipe. Even with some different key bindings like "lastinv" on some mouse button and using it. That doesn't make the trick. Even with some practice.
But a scripter will be able to perform that. 2 meters far away as 30 meters (or units if you prefer) the blink swipe is efficient and work the same. I think this will be a thing that people can see more easily.
The most common advantage that give a blink-swipe script is the abitlity to do "this" when you are really close to a marins.
I use the "mwheeldown" for +jump and mwheelup for "slot1". That makes me able to switch weapon easily after a blink. But i never be able to do a blink then change weapon and swipe in close combat. I use blink to cieling then blink back to ground and swipe. Even with some different key bindings like "lastinv" on some mouse button and using it. That doesn't make the trick. Even with some practice.
But a scripter will be able to perform that. 2 meters far away as 30 meters (or units if you prefer) the blink swipe is efficient and work the same. I think this will be a thing that people can see more easily. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then here's an idea, change your bindings so you're not hobbling yourself. And yes the majority of other people use lastinv to do their weapon switching. This is no argument against "scripting."
though i know this: a pistol scripter will make a diffrent sound when firing then somone tapping the mouse button, it will be just a little bit louder and clobbered up together...
Copy the demo files in your ns folder, start ns, and type
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->viewdemo demoname<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
in the console.
The most common advantage that give a blink-swipe script is the abitlity to do "this" when you are really close to a marins.
I use the "mwheeldown" for +jump and mwheelup for "slot1". That makes me able to switch weapon easily after a blink. But i never be able to do a blink then change weapon and swipe in close combat. I use blink to cieling then blink back to ground and swipe. Even with some different key bindings like "lastinv" on some mouse button and using it. That doesn't make the trick. Even with some practice.
But a scripter will be able to perform that. 2 meters far away as 30 meters (or units if you prefer) the blink swipe is efficient and work the same. I think this will be a thing that people can see more easily. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In bhop2 you are using the mousewheel.
Fade1 is normal fading. (thats for shure)
Fade2 is scripted fading and fade3 is normal fading again. (although i am not 100% shure)
Pistol1 is normal shooting
Pistol2 is using the pistol script
If you dont want to post the right answers yet, pm them to me please. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway: My minimaptoggle script makes me leet <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
my bragging rights being laid out (hahaha...still have to work on aiming, however), i don't really have too much against scripting in pub games...it's a game, and it's not like they're wall-hacking or aim-botting. now...if this were a clan match, or something on a more official level than pub games, then yeah. it's a problem, because that's not the actual person playing the game...they've set their computer up to do something that they can't (or won't, out of laziness) do...it's analogous to taking steroids in a real-life sport, because it gives that extra oomph in certain situations without as much real skill...
EASIER? More like the difference between having fun and spending night after night practicing jump timing.
Something as integral to the game as bhop should be ACCESSIBLY easy to do, especially when you have a choice of using mwheel too, over which 3jump has NO advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm on the side of "scripts don't bother me. I don't use them (except for a jump script in pub play), but don't care if they are fully implemented"...
...but when using sv_cheats 1 and cl_showspeed 1; I can clearly see a difference between 9jump and mwheel. Mwheel gets to the same speed as 9jump eventually, but it takes much longer (3 or 4 more hops). For me, anyway.
EASIER? More like the difference between having fun and spending night after night practicing jump timing.
Something as integral to the game as bhop should be ACCESSIBLY easy to do, especially when you have a choice of using mwheel too, over which 3jump has NO advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm on the side of "scripts don't bother me. I don't use them (except for a jump script in pub play), but don't care if they are fully implemented"...
...but when using sv_cheats 1 and cl_showspeed 1; I can clearly see a difference between 9jump and mwheel. Mwheel gets to the same speed as 9jump eventually, but it takes much longer (3 or 4 more hops). For me, anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That has nothing to do with a script. Its your jump technique that is different. It takes more coordination to mwheel and turn your mouse than to hit a button and turn your mouse.