<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 9 2005, 12:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 9 2005, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EPcreep+Jul 9 2005, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EPcreep @ Jul 9 2005, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> is there still a celerity problem with hit boxes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There'll be problems with extreme movement speeds and hit reg for as long as we use the HL netcode, but it should've improved a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that why celerity lerks are completely impossible to hit? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Toothy+Jul 9 2005, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Toothy @ Jul 9 2005, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 9 2005, 12:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 9 2005, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EPcreep+Jul 9 2005, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EPcreep @ Jul 9 2005, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> is there still a celerity problem with hit boxes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There'll be problems with extreme movement speeds and hit reg for as long as we use the HL netcode, but it should've improved a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that why celerity lerks are completely impossible to hit? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. And good players, intentionally or unintentionally, totally exploit the netcode by moving unpredictably which means their hitbox is almost never aligned well with the model. But it's just something we've got to live with <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes because purposefully moving in a manner that is easy to shoot is always the way to go. Also lerks are pretty much capped at 750 units no matter what kind of binds they use or how big the hallway is. Dropping extreme distances like from the top of freefall can get you up over 1200 but in combat you are pretty much moving 750 at all time. I do believe blinking fades are about 1000 units and leaping skulks slightly faster.
<!--QuoteBegin-meep+Jul 10 2005, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meep @ Jul 10 2005, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Toothy+Jul 9 2005, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Toothy @ Jul 9 2005, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 9 2005, 12:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 9 2005, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-EPcreep+Jul 9 2005, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EPcreep @ Jul 9 2005, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> is there still a celerity problem with hit boxes <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There'll be problems with extreme movement speeds and hit reg for as long as we use the HL netcode, but it should've improved a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that why celerity lerks are completely impossible to hit? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. And good players, intentionally or unintentionally, totally exploit the netcode by moving unpredictably which means their hitbox is almost never aligned well with the model. But it's just something we've got to live with <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, the things people will qualify as an "exploit" these days...
Folks, you fabricate your own uproars, do you know that? Meep never criticised anyone for doing so, he just noted that fast evasive maneuvers make you even harder to hit than would be logical. If you feel attacked by the merest glance in your direction, you'll never be short of enemies.
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2005, 03:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2005, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Folks, you fabricate your own uproars, do you know that? Meep never criticised anyone for doing so, he just noted that fast evasive maneuvers make you even harder to hit than would be logical. If you feel attacked by the merest glance in your direction, you'll never be short of enemies.
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> All of it: QFT
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2005, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2005, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Folks, you fabricate your own uproars, do you know that? Meep never criticised anyone for doing so, he just noted that fast evasive maneuvers make you even harder to hit than would be logical. If you feel attacked by the merest glance in your direction, you'll never be short of enemies.
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't being defensive, just commenting on his choice of words... I would call something that happens as a side-effect of logical play a bug rather than an exploit. There's no such thing as unintentional exploiting.
lerk is a killing machine now imho, although some of the rines i have used bite attack on do this weird laggy thing stutter for a second or 2 then die? lerks on the floor or ceiling are still tricky to hit.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> the fade hitboxes are still broken...
if a fade ducks, the player model pops out atleast 1 or 2 feet above the hitboxes...
an example is when a fade ducks behind abuilding. You aim at his head but it just misses. also.... a fades head will go very far into the ceiling of a vent...
someone needs to redo the duck animations and renders so that they properly line up with the hitboxes and proportions( in vents)
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jul 10 2005, 04:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 10 2005, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2005, 06:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2005, 06:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Folks, you fabricate your own uproars, do you know that? Meep never criticised anyone for doing so, he just noted that fast evasive maneuvers make you even harder to hit than would be logical. If you feel attacked by the merest glance in your direction, you'll never be short of enemies.
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't being defensive, just commenting on his choice of words... I would call something that happens as a side-effect of logical play a bug rather than an exploit. There's no such thing as unintentional exploiting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't really using the term exploit in either the perjorative or the technical sense. Either way: semantics. And Nem is, as usual, right on the money <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
To expand: whenever I lerk, if I pay attention at any time it's obvious that I'm making small erratic movements that wouldn't realistically help me dodge bullets (picturing a basketball player "juking"), but they are, in fact, quite critical and enable me to survive a flight through a room packed with marines or some equally rediculous feat. If this was something that can be fixed through the magic of code, I would be entirely astonished. I've tweaked my net-settings to a fine polish and haven't been able to remove the effects of latency on my play, and trust me, I pay close attention to these things.
On the other hand, balancing the lerk hitpoints around this "bug" reminds me very much of what happened when we were balancing hitpoints around the inaccurate hitboxes during version 1. More practically, if you lower lerk hitpoints more you may end up rubbing out any room for error. A stationary lerk is, after all, very <i>easy</i> to kill.
I should really stick to pithy comments though. I like it when Nem comes to my rescue <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 11 2005, 04:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 11 2005, 04:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> the fade hitboxes are still broken...
if a fade ducks, the player model pops out atleast 1 or 2 feet above the hitboxes...
an example is when a fade ducks behind abuilding. You aim at his head but it just misses. also.... a fades head will go very far into the ceiling of a vent...
someone needs to redo the duck animations and renders so that they properly line up with the hitboxes and proportions( in vents) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The fade's croutched hitbox has been bugged for a long time. This patch was not to adress that issue. I wonder when that issue will be fixed though.
A move in the positive = always a good move. TY devs <3
Yes, fade hitboxes need some fixing.......that when they duck you can try to pistol them in the head right between the eyes and the bullets will just go right through and hit whatever is behind him. Best thing as of now is to aim for the chest or groin area or legs I guess.....
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
The fade hitbox problem in versions before 3.0.5 was due to two problems. The first problem is due to a misalignment of the hitbox and the model. The second was due to the hitboxes protruding from the player's hull.
The second problem has been solved in 3.0.5, but the first one needs a rework of the fade model and was never in the scope of a 3.0.x patch ( as it would also require a client patch ).
If you do a comparison between 3.0.4 and 3.0.5 you should see that the problem has reduced a bit in 3.0.5.
I think the hitreg depends on the server quality... of course the new hitbox code improved it, but some servers I play on, the hit registration still very bad... while in others it looks like I have 50 ping... (my normal ping is 200)
urinalcakeCan't work a sound cardUnited StatesJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7799Members
This thread has been mentioned because of it's interest to the show hosts on the show 'Forum Junkies' by NSRadio.net with urinal-cake, SSJReNe` and ds^depot.
Check out the live recording and download over at <a href='http://www.NSRadio.net' target='_blank'>http://www.NSRadio.net</a>.
Now that I've played the new version more... I think hitboxes are better. I am killing skulks in about 2/3 the bullets that it took me before; that's good. <3
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-QwertyMcDunkin+Jul 9 2005, 05:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QwertyMcDunkin @ Jul 9 2005, 05:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I just installed *****hook on your computer as a prank. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> please don't use the name of the hook.. it only helps ppl who are searching for hacks. It's way harder to find hacks without knowing how they are named most times noobs will end up downloading trojans. So please never ever use names of the hooks/hacks there are allready enough lamers around using obvious speedhacks and other stuff that's not so obvious :/
I don't see any difference but that's because I can't hit s**t. Anyways ... my thanks goes to the dev's improving it so much and bringing good mood to the community.
Skulks are really easy to kill now. I shoot at the model and they die now! Before i could shoot all my lmg bullets into the model and get a few hits but now i can kill them with less than the clip. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
There'll be problems with extreme movement speeds and hit reg for as long as we use the HL netcode, but it should've improved a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that why celerity lerks are completely impossible to hit? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There'll be problems with extreme movement speeds and hit reg for as long as we use the HL netcode, but it should've improved a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that why celerity lerks are completely impossible to hit? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. And good players, intentionally or unintentionally, totally exploit the netcode by moving unpredictably which means their hitbox is almost never aligned well with the model. But it's just something we've got to live with <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There'll be problems with extreme movement speeds and hit reg for as long as we use the HL netcode, but it should've improved a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that why celerity lerks are completely impossible to hit? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. And good players, intentionally or unintentionally, totally exploit the netcode by moving unpredictably which means their hitbox is almost never aligned well with the model. But it's just something we've got to live with <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, the things people will qualify as an "exploit" these days...
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Kudos the devs on this one!
much easier to kill an skulk, with shottie...
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of it: QFT
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't being defensive, just commenting on his choice of words... I would call something that happens as a side-effect of logical play a bug rather than an exploit. There's no such thing as unintentional exploiting.
if a fade ducks, the player model pops out atleast 1 or 2 feet above the hitboxes...
an example is when a fade ducks behind abuilding. You aim at his head but it just misses. also.... a fades head will go very far into the ceiling of a vent...
someone needs to redo the duck animations and renders so that they properly line up with the hitboxes and proportions( in vents)
By the way, no, Toothy, the reason <i>you</i> can't hit celerity Lerks is that you just can't aim <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't being defensive, just commenting on his choice of words... I would call something that happens as a side-effect of logical play a bug rather than an exploit. There's no such thing as unintentional exploiting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't really using the term exploit in either the perjorative or the technical sense. Either way: semantics. And Nem is, as usual, right on the money <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
To expand: whenever I lerk, if I pay attention at any time it's obvious that I'm making small erratic movements that wouldn't realistically help me dodge bullets (picturing a basketball player "juking"), but they are, in fact, quite critical and enable me to survive a flight through a room packed with marines or some equally rediculous feat. If this was something that can be fixed through the magic of code, I would be entirely astonished. I've tweaked my net-settings to a fine polish and haven't been able to remove the effects of latency on my play, and trust me, I pay close attention to these things.
On the other hand, balancing the lerk hitpoints around this "bug" reminds me very much of what happened when we were balancing hitpoints around the inaccurate hitboxes during version 1. More practically, if you lower lerk hitpoints more you may end up rubbing out any room for error. A stationary lerk is, after all, very <i>easy</i> to kill.
I should really stick to pithy comments though. I like it when Nem comes to my rescue <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
if a fade ducks, the player model pops out atleast 1 or 2 feet above the hitboxes...
an example is when a fade ducks behind abuilding. You aim at his head but it just misses. also.... a fades head will go very far into the ceiling of a vent...
someone needs to redo the duck animations and renders so that they properly line up with the hitboxes and proportions( in vents) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade's croutched hitbox has been bugged for a long time. This patch was not to adress that issue. I wonder when that issue will be fixed though.
A move in the positive = always a good move. TY devs <3
The second problem has been solved in 3.0.5, but the first one needs a rework of the fade model and was never in the scope of a 3.0.x patch ( as it would also require a client patch ).
If you do a comparison between 3.0.4 and 3.0.5 you should see that the problem has reduced a bit in 3.0.5.
Check out the live recording and download over at <a href='http://www.NSRadio.net' target='_blank'>http://www.NSRadio.net</a>.
<3
Buffing aliens back at hand?
please don't use the name of the hook.. it only helps ppl who are searching for hacks. It's way harder to find hacks without knowing how they are named most times noobs will end up downloading trojans. So please never ever use names of the hooks/hacks there are allready enough lamers around using obvious speedhacks and other stuff that's not so obvious :/
back to topic
gj devs ns is even more fun now 8)