<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So why do the playtesters consistently tell us that what you said is not true? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why don't you go out there and play on some of the publics instead of just listening to other people?
For one thing, did you read my posts on the last page?
For another, what's with the hostile tone? "...just listening to other people?" I don't just listen to other people. I listen and then I try what I've heard. Something many of the marine players around here ought to try.
ok.. gonna add my two cents to the "is it ballanced issue"
As it has already been said.. If the marine team is smart and work together well, they can win. But after commanding my first game tonight i got to say.. Dang, its HARD... my voicecomm didnt work so that was a drawback but... Dang, its HARD...
For Clan games im sure its fine but a regular puplic team has trouble.. lots of trouble.. I wouldnt frown if maby the next patch would leand back a little to the way it was at relese. Exept for the resource trouble <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would suggest to any Lan players to try the first relese now that we all know how to behave as Aliens properly, and see how that works...
We'll see how it turns out but ive seen the marines get their bootys kicked quite a lot latly. on and off their team.
<!--QuoteBegin--Voris+Nov 22 2002, 04:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Voris @ Nov 22 2002, 04:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The game is certainly unbalanced. That's not to say that the marines can't win; they can, but only if everyone works together perfectly, and the commander is good, and sucky aliens doesn't hurt either.
Here's a litte example why.
In order to get basic heavy armor, you need and infantry portal, an armory, an arms lab, a prototype lab upgraded to heavy armor, and the actual armor.
RP-wise, that's 15+25+50+50+45=185+20 each.
To get level three carapace, you need a gorge, and three defense chambers or:
13+14+14+14=55+2 each.
So the total cost for heavy armor is given by the equation
(185/T)+20T
and carapace is
(55/T)+2T
Where T is the total number of units.
This means that for 5 units of first-level heavy armor, the total cost is
(185/5)+20(5)=137.
And for 5 units of level 3 carapace, the cost is
(55/5)+2(5)=21.
Quite a difference, huh?
When you add to that the fact that the commander must manually spawn each HA while it's self-given/automatic for the aliens and <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=11777&hl=armor,and,massive+bug' target='_blank'>this</a>, the Corps is off to a bad start.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK for one thing you forgot about the balance of the characters.
First off a heavy armor marine is far superior level 3 carpace skulk (or gorge) that you mentioned in your equations.
13 for gorge plus 14x3 for the 3 towers is right. But that only gets you a level 3 gorge or skulk. What about the 44 for the Fade. What about the 80 for the second hive to get fade? So your equation is is actually missing 124 extra resources. That brings us up to 179 per teamate for a Fade w/ level3 carpace.
The problem that I CONTINUALLY see in games is marines running around by themselves. One marine building somewere all by himself. I played a game last night and continually killed a marine as skulk in a dark hallway because he just kept coming out. I eventually left out of boredom.
First off, in response to Voris: Those are some very pretty numbers. They have <i>no</i> relevance to the game whatsoever, however. First off, along the way to HA they're getting such things as phase gates, armory, arms labs, etc which have purposes other than achieving HA; everything but the prototype lab is necessary for completely different purposes and, oh by the way, is also a prerequisite for getting HA. So that's hardly fair, comparing all that to DCs solely to compare carapace and HA. Furthermore, the two types of armor upgrades work very differently, and the resource systems are very different as well. The bottom line is this:
<u>Marine and Alien systems are different enough that no point-to-point comparison is possible.</u>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have a marine team and an alien team of equal skill and ability, with both using teamwork and smart tactics, the aliens will always win, I don't care if you have actual United States Marines all playing in the same room, they will lose. That is the very definition on unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely untrue. Not only does this sound silly, but it has been <i>proven</i> untrue time and time again, both in playtesting and on those pubs you're so fond of referring to.
Heck, we just proved it the other day at my house. We're 6 college geeks all living in the same house, all fans of NS to a greater or lesser degree. We all have enough experience to not be complete and utter idiots, and we took pains to balance out the minute differences in knowledge and skill levels so that it would be as fair as possible. What happened? The marines won. Oh sure, it was a hard fight, but we eventually got it. Tying in with this is...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Within 20 minutes from game start,we had fades blowing up all our outposts up and bombarding our main base.....naturally we lost.
I still dont know why aliens can get fade so fast compared to marines getting HA + shotgun/HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you say, honestly, you can have, oh let's say within 15 minutes, 1 hive locked down, properly defend, phase gated with main base for easy access, with HMG/HA researched and equipped on 3 marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do you use to combat a Fade? Teams of 3-4 HA Marines with ASsorted Weapons? Yes?
Buddy boy with the math put it best<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it that "naturally" you lost? Did somebody replace our LMGs with cap guns while I wasn't looking?
People, you do <i>not</i> need HMGs to kill. Not even fades. Just team up with your buddies and rush the fade; keep the pressure on rather than play his little hit-and-run game. HMGs just make them fall quicker, and HA means that you last a little longer. Unless you have HA/HMG or some other investment, then your little life is forfeit anyway. Rush him, even it it means you might die. If you have enough teammates who think the same way, then guess what? You won't. Then afterwards, ignore that tempting wall of OCs and DCs he's healing up at and go directly for the hive. That way you won't have <i>another</i> fade hitting your base within the next minute. Play for the <i>long term</i>, not for the duration of your LMG clip.
Sure, a single marine with HA/HMG isn't quite the equal of a fade... but it's not meant to be! You shouldn't be alone in the first place. Marines are meant to work together, the aliens separately. You cannot count anything you did <i>alone</i> as marine in discussions of balance, because you're not <i>meant</i> to work alone. Working together, as newly-spawned marines, you can usually hold out long enough against the fades to get HA/HMG. Once you <i>do</i> get HA/HMG, it still takes 2 of you to take down a fade reliably, because at no point are you ever meant to be alone. Speaking of which...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the guy who says teams are balanced, the marines just need to work together...
You may be right. But at what point do you think that people are going to work together? When I pop on a server for a few hours and some guy is having fun scouting, ignoring commands, etc...
Guess what? it's not gonna change. Your whole argument is based on the premise that the marines just need to pull together. It's not gonna happen. You always have one or two jerks on the team. That's a fact of playing games on the net! And that means when I'm playing on the net (not in a tournament) I'm gonna win as an alien and lose as a marine 95% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So instead of tweaking the balance for the high-level play, you'd like to cater to the dumbed-down, doesn't-read-the-manual pubbers, who still have a long way to go before they truly understand the game? I think not. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> It's up to the players to improve, not the playtesters dropping the level of play to the lowest common denominator.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I still see marines making the same huge mistakes nearly every single time, too. Aliens can play NS like any other FPS and win. Go out, kill everything, aliens win. Marines need a new approach to NS, and some unique strategies. Stick together always, don't camp very long, fight only for chokepoints and hives and your CC. It's starting to happen, but mostly I see a lot of public players at the bottom of the learning curve for marines. Myself included.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said! I still question the wisdom of creating a game in which one of the teams is inclined towards the DMers while the other is inclined towards teamwork; naturally most pubbers won't be as interested in teamwork as rambo-ing. While this is still very much a <i>player</i> problem, it should still be taken in account when tweaking play balance.
Having said all that, of course, you must work first on <i>your</i> end before complaining about balance. Become a good team leader. Educate those who don't know as much as you do. Do what <b>you</b> can to improve yourself and the other players on your team before complaining to the designers about balance.
Wow, I knew I'd get too the see the "marines have to work together in a team to win" posts. Wheres the rolleyes smilie when you need it.
<span style='color:red'> If you actually read my post, Youd probobly noticed that I covered all(ALL) aspects of the oppossing minded people. You learn in basic college engish that when you make a complaint you are a good complainer when you can actually make a defense against those appossing your thoughts.</span>
Wow, Rico, you've noticed that pre patch the marines got heaps of resources due to the bug, good for you, next time read my entire post before writing and you will see that I had stated this.(claps hands)
(If you take poor marine players against good alien players, aliens will win (If you take poor alien players against good marines, marines will win (IF YOU TAKE BOTH GOOD MARINE PLAYERS AGAINST GOOD ALIEN PLAYERS,GUESS WHAT...ALIENS WIN. <span style='color:red'> Again, you prob would have noticed, if you read my post, that I mentioned that good and bad players alike came and went from this server the entire day and marines only managed one win because aliens were lacking of team players.But then I should mention that MOST of the time aliens were outnumbered by one or two more marine players and they still won. There were some very good commanders and very bad commanders, but no map could give marines a winning line.Many of the rounds our commander(s) gave good orders and almost seemed godlike in the way they handed out equipment and on some maps we had almost all the maps nodes and turret farms at every one and marines travelled in packs almost as if we were acting like a swat team using Mic and giving ordrs too each other. Still lost to two lone Fades. </span>
I should mention that this server is the WOLFDEN server, prob one of the most popular NS servers. It is the most popular server on gamespy.
(puts sarcastic face mask on) Hm, I guess all the marines coming on this server arn't good or arn't working as a team. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm still surprised too see hoe many people took my post as a-marines are sucky- kinda thing. I was going to write more but no, just reread my post thourouly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cyborgguineapig+Nov 23 2002, 12:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyborgguineapig @ Nov 23 2002, 12:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->since the gameplay was actually balanced in 1.0 with the exeption of the resource bug in marines<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, there it is in the middle of my mas of words.
Some people need to play around on different servers. I jump around alot, usually frequenting Jigglypuff's Jiglly Room but going to other servers pretty often as well. I don't know if certain servers just mysteriously support stupid marines, but in my experience, it is not impossible to win as marines. It is not arduously difficult. It isn't even hard. All you have to do is have a commander with a remote idea of a good game plan, and at least half a team that is willing to listen. A marine team that follows orders, moves in groups, and watches each other's backs is a force to be reckoned with. Suddenly, that lone skulk or fade that has such a <b><i>huge</i></b> advantage because he is playing like it's a DM will die within seconds of confronting you. <i>Every time</i> he confronts you. Only some sort of DM god can take on 3 or 4 marines and come out on top with any regularity (barring flukes).
Marines have to expand fast. That is the name of their game. If you get to a hive before the aliens do, you have already thrown the balance of the game into your favor. Grab another, and the game is yours. Turtling in your base, building up defenses in places that don't really require them, and slowly crawling towards the aliens will get you killed (unless you are matched fairly evenly and you are doing the dreaded Siege Turret crawl). Next time you are playing as a marine, work with your commander, and if people aren't sticking together, then force them to by following one of those rambos. Suddenly, that rambo will have cover and won't die as often. And eventually your commander will take notice and start giving the both of you more aggressive orders.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>OMG! </span> Here is some good **obscenity** for you people to look at taken straight from the servers forum. I think this link proves that aliens are overpowered. LOL, I can't stop laughing at the people apposing me. In the server stats thread FLAYRA himself is asking for a percentile ranged stats system to see if the game is unbalanced at the moment.
That link is horribly bad data to support your arguement. The only data set that I would take would be ns_nothing and ns_tanith. The others are horribly inaccurate to actually tell anything since in most of them the aliens outnumber the marines 2:1.
Even if you take all of the data sets into account and use this:
66.13%/8.26 = ~8% victory per alien member. 33.87%5.35 = ~6.33% victory per marine member.
So, this ^^^ shows that aliens are ~1.66% better per teammate and are "overpowered".
But, you cannot say that a game is unbalanced with not even a month of playing, 62 games, inwhich most games the Kharaa were 2x greater in numbers then the marine team, and one server.
Get me data from ~1000 games. At least 50 servers (which are private only). And with teams (on adverage) EVEN (or with +1 marine member compared to the alien team.) And I MIGHT believe you in saying that the game is unblanced.
I enjoy these balance problem posts, because it ends up with people with real facts and stories against the people with nothing more then "What ifs". Well what if the commander was good? Well what if the marines were good?
You could Wolfenstein 3D player and have him fight against a Quake 3 player with their respective weapons, and if the Wolf3D player was very good, of course he would win.
It's a fact: Good=More wins.
So why oh why is it considered an argument against balancing something?!
PLUS You damn devs made it even MORE unbalanced when you made it complicated to play aliens! Sure all the newbies will go to marines... meaning sucky players... and all the pros (Who realise that aliens are ultra-powerful) will go to alien.. meaning crap vs. pro... which makes even MORE alien wins.
BTW: The only reason you don't want alien balance, I bet (I like how you're ignoring the data) is because you LIKE winning all the time.
Listen you little ebola-ridden pedopheliac, get off your stick up your **obscenity** and get in a pub server. Play for 4 hours and see who wins the most, instead of sitting here on these forums doing nothing but making weak excuses.
And the reason, **obscenity**, that aliens have more players then marines, is because when the 3rd hive goes up, the game is even more over then when it was when the 2nd went up, and all the players flock to the alien side.
If you ever take my advice ans actually pLAY THIS GAME, then look at the teams during ANOTHER alien win: All the marines flock to the alien team, probably most of them the newbies that the DEV TEAM encouraged the play on Marine, again, MAKING THAT TEAM LESS SKILLED.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> WHAT THE HELL IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS</span>
(Yes I know I could and should use edit, but I like splitting up my topics. If you grow bored reading about one topic you know where to skip ahead to get to the next point)
Now, if you read all these, the main balance problem relies in the fact that the fade is both very cheap, very fast and powerfully armed, and appears very early in the game.
And on the other end, the marines must run around in jeans and a tee shirt with their little assault rifles (LMG my **obscenity**) until late in the game... usually too late... sounds to me like the marines need some sort of equipment to get by... read my post in the SUGGESTIONS forums about Manned Gun turrets.
Jebus.....when I started this topic I didn't know it was going to turn into 4 pages of replies! ROFL I guess this is a touchy topic in NS as it probably should be. I find it interesting that people keep referring to the months and months of playtesting that went on before the release of NS and therefore NS must be balanced. Well you're right! It was perfect when it first came out. Marines could actually win a few games and the aliens could win a few. The version of NS that we are all playing now ISN'T the NS that was playtested for months. It is the OVERPOWERED ALIEN version of the game that all the alien players love to play and don't want changed. Sure the marines can win maybe 1 out of 10 games but where is the fun in that? Oh that's right, all the fun is happening on the alien side! Even with good teamwork the Marines must work their **obscenity** off for the entire game without letting up in order to even come close to a victory. The aliens can screw off for half of the game and decide when they want to win.
Anyway......I just wanted to know if there were plans to fix it that's all. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I find that Ns is <b>not</b> unbalanced. As you said, HamNibble,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact that usually newer players tend to join the marines (mainly because the marines are less complicated to learn) when they start playing NS plays a large part in that but I don't believe that is the only reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This <b>is</b> the reason why Aliens tend to win more often. Just wait a month or two, soon the newbies will become pretty good and some of them will join marines. I myself tend to go with Aliens because i thought they were cool, you know morphing and all that. I do play marines but it's difficuilt at times especialy if you have a newbie comm and marines which don't work together and don't listen. These are the basic Ns survival tips:
1. Work as a team 2. Stop complaining and actualy <b>do</b> something 3. Listen to your commander(Marines only of course) 4. Consult with each other when in dire need of comeback or major assault 5. Become a leader(only <i>really</i> works for Aliens. On that rare occasion it will happen when someone takes charge(other than the comm for Marines))
If your team successfully executes some of these tips your team stands a very good chance of winning(<b>ALWAYS</b> a chance of loss) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, i must say that it saddens me to see what i thought to be an interesting thread with interesting ideas go down the drain because certain people cant control their temper. I am reporting this thread to a moderator so it can be locked. No one will give in to anyone else's opinion and arguing about balance which is in the eyes of the beholder is about as stupid as arguing about religion on the internet. I should'nt have replied to this thread at all in the first place.
I hope you're not referring to me not controlling my temper. I didn't mean to come off that way if I did. I had just got done reading all of the replies before my last post and I got all fired up and had to let it all out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe we are all looking at this backwards. Maybe it's really the marines that is more complicated to learn and not the aliens after all? ALL NEWBS PLEASE JOIN ALIENS FIRST!!
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
edited November 2002
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 23 2002, 01:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 23 2002, 01:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please lock it because this discussion isn't going to get any more enlightening.
Have you even read the forum? This guy has PROOF that it's unbalanced and all the die-hard "I like aliens because I win much more" says: "Those numbers are fixed give me different ones". It's willful ignorance, and it's absured.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh no, now somebodies gonna post how those stats show alien teams out numbering marines, Sphh, I laugh at you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what'd make this laugable...more aliens means more resources for aliens (10 apiece, while marines have a fixed 100), and, of course, there's the sheer number of players that gives them an advantage. And look at the map that had, on average, the closest number of players:
Also, on most of the pubs I play on, the player count is closer to 10v10, and numbers favor marines more, as at the beginning, they're individually stronger.
People, we're still talking pubs here! Not ultra-über-super-elites that play against each other. Then it might be balanced. But on pubs, it isn't. That's the fact, no matter how much you say you have to work as a team and have a good comm..... If the aliens win most of the time, then it can't be balanced can it? I still think they should buff up marines a bit on pub-setting.
The problem is not that this mod rewards teamwork; many mods do.
The problem is that the two races reward teamward unevenly.
Let us assume all players join Random Team. It is fair to assume that, because we are looking at an average impression on an average server.
Now both teams will have a share of good players, but the general amount of cooperation will always be lower than the maximum level of cooperation the game was balanced for.
Under such circumstances, Aliens win more games than Marines.
This fact is inherent to the design of the game and will severly impact the longevity of public play.
There is only one solution: Marine vs. Marine and Alien vs. Alien gamemodes. I predict that general public play will switch to these modes as soon as they are introduced.
<!--QuoteBegin--Heresy_Fnord+Nov 22 2002, 07:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heresy_Fnord @ Nov 22 2002, 07:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off a heavy armor marine is far superior level 3 carpace skulk (or gorge) that you mentioned in your equations.
13 for gorge plus 14x3 for the 3 towers is right. But that only gets you a level 3 gorge or skulk. What about the 44 for the Fade. What about the 80 for the second hive to get fade? So your equation is is actually missing 124 extra resources. That brings us up to 179 per teamate for a Fade w/ level3 carpace. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A basic HA marine with LMG is pretty close to a level 3 skulk. A level 3 fade will tear an HA/LMG marine to shreads.
<!--QuoteBegin--Unknown+Nov 22 2002, 09:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Unknown @ Nov 22 2002, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Get me data from ~1000 games. At least 50 servers (which are private only). And with teams (on adverage) EVEN (or with +1 marine member compared to the alien team.) And I MIGHT believe you in saying that the game is unblanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1000 games from private servers is not a good sample. The servers should be randomly selected.
I don't know if the game is unbalanced because game skill is way more important then stats in this game but...
What I feel is that aliens are a lot easier to play then marines once you've learned the ev-tree (doesn't take that long). The marines team needs near to perfect coordination, very hard or maybe impossible to achive over the net. A couple of NSPlayer can screw the whole team making it impossible to execute any kind of team strategy. You can't even ignore them cause they'll flood the comm with requests (the more you ignore someone the more he'll get to you, that's a rule, always) making things even harder.
On the other side aliens just need 50% of the plyrs to know what they're doing. 1 or 2 wise gorgs and a couple of avarage skill skulk/lerk/fade/wahtever will be enougth, and if the rest of the team are newbies just rushing out solo as skulk that's no big deal; maybe they wont be causing great damage to the enemy but they wont damage their own team as much as a couple of clueless marines can harm a frontiersmaen squad.
So, in the end, the game looks unbalanced because the marines are hard to play and, most of all, because comming is hard as hell. If some balancing needs to be done it's not in the stats (at least I don't know) but in the comm hud giving him/her some kind of "cycle units" key and things like that.
Have any of you cared to read the orginal design documents? It states very clearly (several times, I think) that the goal of NS is to marry FPS teamwork, DM, and RTS into one game. That means aliens play loose team death match; marines play close knit teamplay like in TFC; the commander plays an RTS.
If this is what you're seeing on pubs, minus the marine teamwork, then NS is doing what it should. Up the marine teamwork and see what happens.
Comments
So why don't you go out there and play on some of the publics instead of just listening to other people?
For another, what's with the hostile tone? "...just listening to other people?" I don't just listen to other people. I listen and then I try what I've heard. Something many of the marine players around here ought to try.
As it has already been said.. If the marine team is smart and work together well, they can win. But after commanding my first game tonight i got to say.. Dang, its HARD... my voicecomm didnt work so that was a drawback but... Dang, its HARD...
For Clan games im sure its fine but a regular puplic team has trouble.. lots of trouble.. I wouldnt frown if maby the next patch would leand back a little to the way it was at relese. Exept for the resource trouble <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would suggest to any Lan players to try the first relese now that we all know how to behave as Aliens properly, and see how that works...
We'll see how it turns out but ive seen the marines get their bootys kicked quite a lot latly. on and off their team.
Here's a litte example why.
In order to get basic heavy armor, you need and infantry portal, an armory, an arms lab, a prototype lab upgraded to heavy armor, and the actual armor.
RP-wise, that's 15+25+50+50+45=185+20 each.
To get level three carapace, you need a gorge, and three defense chambers or:
13+14+14+14=55+2 each.
So the total cost for heavy armor is given by the equation
(185/T)+20T
and carapace is
(55/T)+2T
Where T is the total number of units.
This means that for 5 units of first-level heavy armor, the total cost is
(185/5)+20(5)=137.
And for 5 units of level 3 carapace, the cost is
(55/5)+2(5)=21.
Quite a difference, huh?
When you add to that the fact that the commander must manually spawn each HA while it's self-given/automatic for the aliens and <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=11777&hl=armor,and,massive+bug' target='_blank'>this</a>, the Corps is off to a bad start.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK for one thing you forgot about the balance of the characters.
First off a heavy armor marine is far superior level 3 carpace skulk (or gorge) that you mentioned in your equations.
13 for gorge plus 14x3 for the 3 towers is right. But that only gets you a level 3 gorge or skulk. What about the 44 for the Fade. What about the 80 for the second hive to get fade? So your equation is is actually missing 124 extra resources. That brings us up to 179 per teamate for a Fade w/ level3 carpace.
The problem that I CONTINUALLY see in games is marines running around by themselves. One marine building somewere all by himself. I played a game last night and continually killed a marine as skulk in a dark hallway because he just kept coming out. I eventually left out of boredom.
<u>Marine and Alien systems are different enough that no point-to-point comparison is possible.</u>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have a marine team and an alien team of equal skill and ability, with both using teamwork and smart tactics, the aliens will always win, I don't care if you have actual United States Marines all playing in the same room, they will lose. That is the very definition on unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely untrue. Not only does this sound silly, but it has been <i>proven</i> untrue time and time again, both in playtesting and on those pubs you're so fond of referring to.
Heck, we just proved it the other day at my house. We're 6 college geeks all living in the same house, all fans of NS to a greater or lesser degree. We all have enough experience to not be complete and utter idiots, and we took pains to balance out the minute differences in knowledge and skill levels so that it would be as fair as possible. What happened? The marines won. Oh sure, it was a hard fight, but we eventually got it. Tying in with this is...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Within 20 minutes from game start,we had fades blowing up all our outposts up and bombarding our main base.....naturally we lost.
I still dont know why aliens can get fade so fast compared to marines getting HA + shotgun/HMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can you say, honestly, you can have, oh let's say within 15 minutes, 1 hive locked down, properly defend, phase gated with main base for easy access, with HMG/HA researched and equipped on 3 marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do you use to combat a Fade? Teams of 3-4 HA Marines with ASsorted Weapons? Yes?
Buddy boy with the math put it best<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is it that "naturally" you lost? Did somebody replace our LMGs with cap guns while I wasn't looking?
People, you do <i>not</i> need HMGs to kill. Not even fades. Just team up with your buddies and rush the fade; keep the pressure on rather than play his little hit-and-run game. HMGs just make them fall quicker, and HA means that you last a little longer. Unless you have HA/HMG or some other investment, then your little life is forfeit anyway. Rush him, even it it means you might die. If you have enough teammates who think the same way, then guess what? You won't. Then afterwards, ignore that tempting wall of OCs and DCs he's healing up at and go directly for the hive. That way you won't have <i>another</i> fade hitting your base within the next minute. Play for the <i>long term</i>, not for the duration of your LMG clip.
Sure, a single marine with HA/HMG isn't quite the equal of a fade... but it's not meant to be! You shouldn't be alone in the first place. Marines are meant to work together, the aliens separately. You cannot count anything you did <i>alone</i> as marine in discussions of balance, because you're not <i>meant</i> to work alone. Working together, as newly-spawned marines, you can usually hold out long enough against the fades to get HA/HMG. Once you <i>do</i> get HA/HMG, it still takes 2 of you to take down a fade reliably, because at no point are you ever meant to be alone. Speaking of which...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To the guy who says teams are balanced, the marines just need to work together...
You may be right. But at what point do you think that people are going to work
together? When I pop on a server for a few hours and some guy is having fun
scouting, ignoring commands, etc...
Guess what? it's not gonna change. Your whole argument is based on the premise
that the marines just need to pull together. It's not gonna happen. You always have
one or two jerks on the team. That's a fact of playing games on the net! And that
means when I'm playing on the net (not in a tournament) I'm gonna win as an alien
and lose as a marine 95% of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So instead of tweaking the balance for the high-level play, you'd like to cater to the dumbed-down, doesn't-read-the-manual pubbers, who still have a long way to go before they truly understand the game? I think not. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> It's up to the players to improve, not the playtesters dropping the level of play to the lowest common denominator.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I still see marines making the same huge mistakes nearly every single time, too. Aliens can play NS like any other FPS and win. Go out, kill everything, aliens win. Marines need a new approach to NS, and some unique strategies. Stick together always, don't camp very long, fight only for chokepoints and hives and your CC. It's starting to happen, but mostly I see a lot of public players at the bottom of the learning curve for marines. Myself included.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said! I still question the wisdom of creating a game in which one of the teams is inclined towards the DMers while the other is inclined towards teamwork; naturally most pubbers won't be as interested in teamwork as rambo-ing. While this is still very much a <i>player</i> problem, it should still be taken in account when tweaking play balance.
Having said all that, of course, you must work first on <i>your</i> end before complaining about balance. Become a good team leader. Educate those who don't know as much as you do. Do what <b>you</b> can to improve yourself and the other players on your team before complaining to the designers about balance.
<span style='color:red'> If you actually read my post, Youd probobly noticed that I covered all(ALL) aspects of the oppossing minded people. You learn in basic college engish that when you make a complaint you are a good complainer when you can actually make a defense against those appossing your thoughts.</span>
Wow, Rico, you've noticed that pre patch the marines got heaps of resources due to the bug, good for you, next time read my entire post before writing and you will see that I had stated this.(claps hands)
(If you take poor marine players against good alien players, aliens will win
(If you take poor alien players against good marines, marines will win
(IF YOU TAKE BOTH GOOD MARINE PLAYERS AGAINST GOOD ALIEN PLAYERS,GUESS WHAT...ALIENS WIN.
<span style='color:red'> Again, you prob would have noticed, if you read my post, that I mentioned that good and bad players alike came and went from this server the entire day and marines only managed one win because aliens were lacking of team players.But then I should mention that MOST of the time aliens were outnumbered by one or two more marine players and they still won. There were some very good commanders and very bad commanders, but no map could give marines a winning line.Many of the rounds our commander(s) gave good orders and almost seemed godlike in the way they handed out equipment and on some maps we had almost all the maps nodes and turret farms at every one and marines travelled in packs almost as if we were acting like a swat team using Mic and giving ordrs too each other. Still lost to two lone Fades. </span>
I should mention that this server is the WOLFDEN server, prob one of the most popular NS servers. It is the most popular server on gamespy.
(puts sarcastic face mask on) Hm, I guess all the marines coming on this server arn't good or arn't working as a team. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm still surprised too see hoe many people took my post as a-marines are sucky- kinda thing. I was going to write more but no, just reread my post thourouly.
Wow, there it is in the middle of my mas of words.
Marines have to expand fast. That is the name of their game. If you get to a hive before the aliens do, you have already thrown the balance of the game into your favor. Grab another, and the game is yours. Turtling in your base, building up defenses in places that don't really require them, and slowly crawling towards the aliens will get you killed (unless you are matched fairly evenly and you are doing the dreaded Siege Turret crawl). Next time you are playing as a marine, work with your commander, and if people aren't sticking together, then force them to by following one of those rambos. Suddenly, that rambo will have cover and won't die as often. And eventually your commander will take notice and start giving the both of you more aggressive orders.
It's the teamwork stupid.
<a href='http://www.amoogle.com/nslogp/' target='_blank'>http://www.amoogle.com/nslogp/</a>
From what this link looks...I think I am comfortable to say that...
ALIENS ARE OVERPOWERED!
Oh no, now somebodies gonna post how those stats show alien teams out numbering marines, Sphh, I laugh at you.
Even if you take all of the data sets into account and use this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Games Completed: 62
Avg. Game Time: 33 Mins. 23 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 66.13%
Win/Lose % Marines: 33.87%
Avg. Num. Aliens: 8.26
Avg. Num. Marines: 5.35<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I would do:
66.13%/8.26 = ~8% victory per alien member.
33.87%5.35 = ~6.33% victory per marine member.
So, this ^^^ shows that aliens are ~1.66% better per teammate and are "overpowered".
But, you cannot say that a game is unbalanced with not even a month of playing, 62 games, inwhich most games the Kharaa were 2x greater in numbers then the marine team, and one server.
Get me data from ~1000 games. At least 50 servers (which are private only). And with teams (on adverage) EVEN (or with +1 marine member compared to the alien team.) And I MIGHT believe you in saying that the game is unblanced.
You could Wolfenstein 3D player and have him fight against a Quake 3 player with their respective weapons, and if the Wolf3D player was very good, of course he would win.
It's a fact: Good=More wins.
So why oh why is it considered an argument against balancing something?!
PLUS You damn devs made it even MORE unbalanced when you made it complicated to play aliens! Sure all the newbies will go to marines... meaning sucky players... and all the pros (Who realise that aliens are ultra-powerful) will go to alien.. meaning crap vs. pro... which makes even MORE alien wins.
BTW: The only reason you don't want alien balance, I bet (I like how you're ignoring the data) is because you LIKE winning all the time.
Listen you little ebola-ridden pedopheliac, get off your stick up your **obscenity** and get in a pub server. Play for 4 hours and see who wins the most, instead of sitting here on these forums doing nothing but making weak excuses.
If you ever take my advice ans actually pLAY THIS GAME, then look at the teams during ANOTHER alien win: All the marines flock to the alien team, probably most of them the newbies that the DEV TEAM encouraged the play on Marine, again, MAKING THAT TEAM LESS SKILLED.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> WHAT THE HELL IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS</span>
Now, if you read all these, the main balance problem relies in the fact that the fade is both very cheap, very fast and powerfully armed, and appears very early in the game.
And on the other end, the marines must run around in jeans and a tee shirt with their little assault rifles (LMG my **obscenity**) until late in the game... usually too late... sounds to me like the marines need some sort of equipment to get by... read my post in the SUGGESTIONS forums about Manned Gun turrets.
oh btw if you put up seige guns and many many turrets, you will win too. alien players CPUs cant keep up trying to process that much info ;\
I guess this is a touchy topic in NS as it probably should be. I find it interesting that people keep referring to the months and months of playtesting that went on before the release of NS and therefore NS must be balanced. Well you're right! It was perfect when it first came out. Marines could actually win a few games and the aliens could win a few. The version of NS that we are all playing now ISN'T the NS that was playtested for months. It is the OVERPOWERED ALIEN version of the game that all the alien players love to play and don't want changed. Sure the marines can win maybe 1 out of 10 games but where is the fun in that? Oh that's right, all the fun is happening on the alien side! Even with good teamwork the Marines must work their **obscenity** off for the entire game without letting up in order to even come close to a victory. The aliens can screw off for half of the game and decide when they want to win.
Anyway......I just wanted to know if there were plans to fix it that's all. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact that usually newer players tend to join the marines (mainly because the marines are less complicated to learn) when they start playing NS plays a large part in that but I don't believe that is the only reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This <b>is</b> the reason why Aliens tend to win more often. Just wait a month or two, soon the newbies will become pretty good and some of them will join marines. I myself tend to go with Aliens because i thought they were cool, you know morphing and all that. I do play marines but it's difficuilt at times especialy if you have a newbie comm and marines which don't work together and don't listen. These are the basic Ns survival tips:
1. Work as a team
2. Stop complaining and actualy <b>do</b> something
3. Listen to your commander(Marines only of course)
4. Consult with each other when in dire need of comeback or major assault
5. Become a leader(only <i>really</i> works for Aliens. On that rare occasion it will happen when someone takes charge(other than the comm for Marines))
If your team successfully executes some of these tips your team stands a very good chance of winning(<b>ALWAYS</b> a chance of loss) <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
j/k <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Please lock it because this discussion isn't going to get any more enlightening.
I don't know what'd make this laugable...more aliens means more resources for aliens (10 apiece, while marines have a fixed 100), and, of course, there's the sheer number of players that gives them an advantage. And look at the map that had, on average, the closest number of players:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ns_tanith
Total Complete: 6
Avg. Game Time: 36 Mins. 52 Secs.
Win/Lose % Aliens: 33.33%
Win/Lose % Marines: 66.67%
Avg. Num. Aliens: 7.33
Avg. Num. Marines: 6.83
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, on most of the pubs I play on, the player count is closer to 10v10, and numbers favor marines more, as at the beginning, they're individually stronger.
The problem is that the two races reward teamward unevenly.
Let us assume all players join Random Team. It is fair to assume that, because we are looking at an average impression on an average server.
Now both teams will have a share of good players, but the general amount of cooperation will always be lower than the maximum level of cooperation the game was balanced for.
Under such circumstances, Aliens win more games than Marines.
This fact is inherent to the design of the game and will severly impact the longevity of public play.
There is only one solution: Marine vs. Marine and Alien vs. Alien gamemodes. I predict that general public play will switch to these modes as soon as they are introduced.
13 for gorge plus 14x3 for the 3 towers is right. But that only gets you a level 3 gorge or skulk. What about the 44 for the Fade. What about the 80 for the second hive to get fade? So your equation is is actually missing 124 extra resources. That brings us up to 179 per teamate for a Fade w/ level3 carpace.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A basic HA marine with LMG is pretty close to a level 3 skulk. A level 3 fade will tear an HA/LMG marine to shreads.
1000 games from private servers is not a good sample. The servers should be randomly selected.
I don't know if the game is unbalanced because game skill is way more important then stats in this game but...
What I feel is that aliens are a lot easier to play then marines once you've learned the ev-tree (doesn't take that long).
The marines team needs near to perfect coordination, very hard or maybe impossible to achive over the net.
A couple of NSPlayer can screw the whole team making it impossible to execute any kind of team strategy. You can't even ignore them cause they'll flood the comm with requests (the more you ignore someone the more he'll get to you, that's a rule, always) making things even harder.
On the other side aliens just need 50% of the plyrs to know what they're doing. 1 or 2 wise gorgs and a couple of avarage skill skulk/lerk/fade/wahtever will be enougth, and if the rest of the team are newbies just rushing out solo as skulk that's no big deal; maybe they wont be causing great damage to the enemy but they wont damage their own team as much as a couple of clueless marines can harm a frontiersmaen squad.
So, in the end, the game looks unbalanced because the marines are hard to play and, most of all, because comming is hard as hell. If some balancing needs to be done it's not in the stats (at least I don't know) but in the comm hud giving him/her some kind of "cycle units" key and things like that.
Have any of you cared to read the orginal design documents? It states very clearly (several times, I think) that the goal of NS is to marry FPS teamwork, DM, and RTS into one game. That means aliens play loose team death match; marines play close knit teamplay like in TFC; the commander plays an RTS.
If this is what you're seeing on pubs, minus the marine teamwork, then NS is doing what it should. Up the marine teamwork and see what happens.