Cs Vs Ns

IncitatusIncitatus Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4316Members
<div class="IPBDescription">just a couple of observations</div> There's a lot of comparing CS to NS going around on these boards. Most people see the CS community as an immature fragfest, but then that 's what it is. Or rather what it has become. Most people look at the NS community and see a heaven of mature players working together to achieve their goal, not quite true but close enough.
What most people forget, or don't know, is that the CS comm in the early days (beta 1 not version 1) was as mature or even better than the NS comm is now. CS in the early days never grew as fast as NS is doing now only a few weeks after it's release. Therefore I see the same things that happened to CS comm now happening in the NS comm, only much much faster. Especially in these forums.
So my word of advise would be not to look at the CS comm and scoff and laugh at it, but to learn the lessons and then take a close look at the NS comm. It is happening guys, you can only do your best to try and avoid it.

p.s Don't be so stupid as to compare gameplay they are totally different games.

Comments

  • Secret_NinjaSecret_Ninja Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9286Members
    Yeah, I feel slightly similar...Many people have said that they think it would be awesome if NS took over CS and became the #1 HL mod. That, my friends, would be tragic. If NS had 100000+ players and 25000+ servers, think of how impossible it would be to play an entertaining Public game. Hackers, whiners, ragers, TKers...all the things that have made CS so un-fun recently would plague NS. Personally, I wouldn't mind the NS community growing a bit, but as word spreads and more angsty 12 year-olds that have nothing better to do than ruin other people's fun and type with just as many numbers as letters start playing NS, the overall entertainment of the mod would sharply decrease.

    CS <i>was</i> good. CS still <i>is</i> good from a pure gameplay standpoint. But the players and community ruined it for the public. Hopefully that will never happen to NS...
  • SoDumSoDum Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7362Members
    History repeats itself. GG teamwork. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Hopefully that wont happen due to the nature of the game. I enjoy CS where it is right now as the number one mod, because it draws away at least half of the stupid people from other, more precious mods.

    It has to have a playerbase, playing an increadible mod all by yourself wouldn't be any good, but there is a point where it goes from a modest playerbase to a mass of random people.

    By the way, even CS isn't bad in the best of play, its just, that rarly happens, since the sheer number of players and servers make finding a good game like finding a steel particle in a haystack.
  • Boiscour35Boiscour35 Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9250Members
    If you want to have a positive gaming experience in CS, then you have to play organized games. Join a team in a respectable league (you don't have to be a l33t haxx0r to play in CAL-O) and you will get reasonably satisfying experience. I used to hate play CS on-line because it was basically team death-match. Now that I've played a lot of organized play in different leagues, however, I love the game.

    Most of the griefers in games don't care to play in a clan or on a team because they don't want to listen to anyone. I see the same thing happening in NS. I would hate to play NS on public servers on a regular basis. I would kill myself. Go for the organized gaming. You'll love it ten times more.
  • mouthmouth Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9142Members
    CS IS an immature fragfest these days. The weapons, balance, maps...EVERYTHING is FUBAR. Back when Goose actually listened to good ideas, it was different. There was a feeling of comaraderie that came from it, and it no longer exists there. The game is pretty much made so even the the biggest assgrab can aim in the <i>general direction</i> of someone and get a headshot. You can't expect to keep intelligent people around when your mod doles out arbitrary kills left and right.

    Second, the only way to get an organized game is to play with clans, who have completely lost the point of playing for fun. They're still immature tools, they just have a bigger **obscenity** about winning all the time so they might have a chance at getting money. And even still, "organized" is a loose term when speaking about CS clans, even the "pro" ones. The only thing that actually happens on a regular schedule over there is the clanhopping.

    But, your last point is quite a good one. One of the things that made CS so intolerable is that there were constantly people thinking that CS should be more of a DM game, and pushed for it to become such. Just as the concepts of tactical shooter and deathmatch are different, the concepts if tactical shooter and FPS/RTS hybrid are also different. Leave your CS experience behind. You're not in Kansas anymore.
  • xioutlawixxioutlawix Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7118Members, Constellation
    edited November 2002
    I personally see it like this:
    Hopefully with the steeper learning curve than CS would've ever had, we'll attract people who have actually adopted a policy of thinking in their lives, and thus we'll get the cream of the crop, ie. no whiny 12 year olds, hackers, idiots.
  • SnappleSSnappleS Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9073Members
    It's a trip how people act like things that happen over the net should be on Opera.
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
    Coil summed it up:

    Why I Dislike CS.
    by coil.

    1) Rounds are three minutes or less (usually 1-2). The amount of depth to be found in 3 minutes of gameplay is insufficient to drown an anorexic, two-dimensional baby midget.

    2) Repeating the same 1-2 minutes 25 times takes it from "shallow" to "mind-numbing."

    3) There are a *few* weapons in the game that are simply better than any of the others; therefore, these are the only weapons ever used. As is true of the gameplay, there is no variation in weapon choice.

    4) It claims to be a teamplay mod, but is not. It is team deathmatch. This means:
    a) A single player with enough skill can win a round single-handedly.
    b) Therefore, players try to carry the server, thereby eliminating any last chance for teamplay elements.

    5) The two teams are essentially differently skinned copies. Only a few weapons are unique to one side or another.

    6) The community is comprised primarily of whining brainless idiots too absorbed in their own score to remember that it's supposed to be fun.

    Now, don't get me wrong... in the right circumstances, CS can be quite fun. EC Clan practices are enjoyable. But it's still just team DM, and after about 90 minutes my brain starts to melt from the repetition.

    Comparatively, Natural Selection:

    1) Games last from 5 minutes to over an hour, averaging around 30 minutes. The battles fought over the enormous maps provide a *limitless* number of unique experiences. If you doubt me, I ask you why the "Frontlines" thread has 77 pages on it, when only about 15-20 playtesters post stories in it.

    2) Generally, you will play a map once or twice before cycling. Boredom does not happen.

    3) Every weapon has a time and a place to be used. Even when aliens have 3 hives, a skulk will still find use for his bite. Even when the commander has access to HMGs, GLs, Heavy Armor, and Jetpacks; a LMG-carrying marine can still fill an essential scout role.

    4) It is true teamplay. Scores do not matter; the only thing that matters is which TEAM is left standing.
    a) A lone marine will not last long.
    b) Aliens provide a venue for the DMers among us; they have scores and can effectively fight solo (since retreating for healing, managing RPs, etc is entirely individual).

    5) Not only are the teams different; there is virtually no overlap between the two teams in terms of abilities. Gameplay is unique depending which side you are playing.

    6) We can only hope. I have a feeling the complexity and the required teamplay will provide NS with a generally more intelligent and less llamatastic community.


    I'd rather watch a picture of a Gorge's foot for 3 days than play a minute of CS.
  • AcheronAcheron Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8489Members
    edited November 2002
    As Boiscour35 hinted at, I think it's a fundamentally spoiled expectation to walk into practically <i>any</i> public server for a game and want great teamplay. In NS this is conceivable because of Commanders, but, really, don't act surprised if a game happens to be played by some lamers/12 year olds. Besides, what's wrong with 12-year-olds? I started PC gaming about six years ago, when I was 12. If anyone else here played (or plays) at that age, I'm sure you'll understand how frustrating it is to be written off by your peers/teammates simply because you are younger than them. Don't expect a game to be 100% balanced either. Almost every map on CS has an inherent bias one way or the other, and, except in extreme circumstances, the CS team has done little to change this.

    I take issue with some of coil's criticisms of CS, but he brings up many relevent points.

    I would disagree with his judgment of weapons choices, although I have never played CS at a "very elite" level. For pubbing/mediocre clanning, I have found uses for almost every weapon in the game.

    I think many people forget that CS is simply a very popular game, and the law of averages has taken over - when thousands and thousands of people play a game, there <b>will</b> be lamers/griefers among them. Deal with it, because it's already present in NS.
  • SamRSamR Join Date: 2002-09-30 Member: 1382Members
    I'm not sure you'll get many people arguing that CS is a better mod on this NS forum...
  • OALensOALens Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8228Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Nov 22 2002, 01:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Nov 22 2002, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd rather watch a picture of a Gorge's foot for 3 days than play a minute of CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    YEA THE GRETAST QUOTE EVER
  • FamFam Diaper-Wearing Dog On A Ball Join Date: 2002-02-17 Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Acheron+Nov 23 2002, 02:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acheron @ Nov 23 2002, 02:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For pubbing/mediocre clanning, I have found uses for almost every weapon in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You have the m4, the de, the ak and the MP5, and the Sig Commando. I used to mix a little bit of P90 and m3 into the mix, but anything other than that is not a great choice at clan level, from my experience.
  • FoggyFoggy Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9620Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Acheron+Nov 22 2002, 04:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Acheron @ Nov 22 2002, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, what's wrong with 12-year-olds? I started PC gaming about six years ago, when I was 12. If anyone else here played (or plays) at that age, I'm sure you'll understand how frustrating it is to be written off by your peers/teammates simply because you are younger than them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Very true. I am shamelessly 14 years old. I don't pretend to be twenty, and if I play with intelligent tactics and don't use more numbers than letters in my sentences, no one disrespects me. The ones who give us younger players such a bad rap are the "h4x0rz", campers, llamas, etc. The ones who join a game solely to curse their heads off or to harass the commander for HA and an hmg when it is obvious he has none. I'm not responsible for these people, and other players are starting to realize that.
  • Bish0pBish0p Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8416Members
    Look at DoD community if you want to see a community turning for the worst.
  • IncitatusIncitatus Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4316Members
    edited November 2002
    My point still is most people don't know CS from when it was only Gooseman and Cliffe.
    And therefore don't know how really great the CS comm was, and look what it is now.
    The same thing will and is happening to NS.

    I'm not talking about the clan scene that is a completely different story, although not improving I must say.
    But I still have lots of fun in CS with my clan and a few regulars on the server.

    I just hope NS doesn't grow in the same way CS did.

    I also don't think NS has a much steaper learning curve than CS. CS is really hard if you want to be really good.
    NS is simply less prone to quick thrills than CS, that might save it.
  • FoggyFoggy Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9620Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Incitatus+Nov 22 2002, 07:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Incitatus @ Nov 22 2002, 07:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also don't think NS has a much steaper learning curve than CS. CS is really hard if you want to be really good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, but CS is easy if you want to be pretty good. NS is hard if you want to be pretty good.
  • NumbersNotFoundNumbersNotFound Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7556Members
    edited November 2002
    Maybe the NS community is just as bad and immature as the CS community for badmouthing a mod which is one of the best games out there IF PLAYED RIGHT...

    hmmm where have I heard that before... "if played right" oh yeah! NS is only good "if played right" The mod itself is fine, but the downfall is that the vast userbase has fogged the gameplay tricks that used to be so good. I've been playing for a little over a year now, and once you find a good pub and stick with it (been playing on the same sever for 6 months now) it's a very nice experience.

    Yes, teamplay happens on pubs. Voice comm is there for more than playing music over (wha?) and serves a very good tool. I can tell you from experience, teamplay exists, people don't sacrifice a life gaurding a bomb to gain a few seconds so the CTs can't defuse if they are a stat **obscenity**, it doesn't happen.

    I have, several times, held 5+ people at bay while a team mate defuses, or while a bomb goes off, and thus won the round.

    CS is a DM at the core, but it's jumping limits, gun recoil, and easy deaths make it a tactical must. Those people you see at the top arn't just ratio **obscenity**, they know the game pretty well.
  • DestinyDestiny Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9159Members
    for me... i simply think CS is just a different game. only thing its more established - balanced, simple to play, 'realistic', good netcode/ping...

    for a simple minded guy like me... if i watch sum good fast n furious gunfight movie (like matrix) i would probably go bust sum **obscenity** in CS later... and same goes for NS or maybe DOD(dayofdefeat)

    i for one, never thought of laming, whining, ever happening in servers arnd my area... probably the lamest thing is camping... thats about it...

    and as far as i know... a game with many possibilities in gameplay like NS would also have many ways for laming n **obscenity** ppl off.

    btw.. i happen to know a few lame techniques for NS... where/who i could report this? (they r not bugs)
  • MethodMethod Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8848Members
    A very overlooked aspect that Coil touched upon is round/game length. I dunno about anyone else but I would rather not spend an hour for one game when I can play a few fast games of CS. I'm a full time student with a full time job (and a GF on top of that)! I just don't have the time to sit down and play a complete game of NS when I can get a few rounds of CS in half to one quarter of the time. On weekends it doesn't matter much but on weekdays my time is very limited. It's just not as much fun to only play 15 mins of NS and be in a stalemate as it is to actually win or lose for 15 mins in a game of CS or DoD.
  • FoggyFoggy Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9620Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Destiny+Nov 22 2002, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Destiny @ Nov 22 2002, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw.. i happen to know a few lame techniques for NS... where/who i could report this? (they r not bugs)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think exploits go in the bug forum.
  • ZedixZedix Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9230Members
    There is some pretty good points made in this thread. I personnaly was present at the very start (almost) of the CS community, around Beta 3. The NS community actually brings back souvenirs from the early CS community... Gooseman and Cliffe posting news almost weekly, and talking in the forums like Flayra and such are doing.

    Although this MOD is growing quite quickly, more quickly surely than any other mod for HL (probably because it's so different, and not a CS clone), I surely hope it does not become as popular as CS now. Cs went downhill about when it went retail. Now anyone could get their hands on it, and hackers and newbies and whiners (etc...) came in the community and, well, it sucked.

    That is why when people say "NS should go retail!!", i cringe... and go to play another NS game before it gets ruined <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Ok i'm getting paranoyed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • TheScapegoatTheScapegoat Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7870Members
    edited November 2002
    While i agree with what COIL said on some points i gotta speak up.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) There are a *few* weapons in the game that are simply better than any of the others; therefore, these are the only weapons ever used. As is true of the gameplay, there is no variation in weapon choice.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ummm... its the same for NS. There isnt a wide selection tho, so you are always using the same weapons. Marine side that is.

    And i guess i just foun the one good CS server but the maps change every 20 mins not like 60. They never play the same map within about a 2 hour span. Everyone uses all kinds of guns and the players actually play as if every game is a clan match.

    Guess i just had a good experience for CS and many have not.
  • mwellsmwells Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6041Members
    I admit that I used to be an avid CS player, back when it was 1.0, 1.1 and all the way up to the disgusting 1.5 release. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I really did enjoy CS, but when I couldn't go into a server and plug two guys with a shotgun without being shouted at in various letters and numbers and vote_kicked, it got annoying. The CS community is VERY large, and VERY accessable(it happens to all retail mods, DoD is slowly becoming that way), meaning that there's a higher probability you're gonna run into a bunch of idiots. There's more players, therefore there's more people to ruin your game. As NS grows, more idiots will come into the mix, but also, more brilliant and kind-mannered marines and kharaa will hopefully come in as well.
  • SkorneSkorne Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9144Members
    edited November 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am shamelessly 14 years old. I don't pretend to be twenty, and if I play with intelligent tactics and don't use more numbers than letters in my sentences, no one disrespects me. The ones who give us younger players such a bad rap are the "h4x0rz", campers, llamas, etc. The ones who join a game solely to curse their heads off or to harass the commander for HA and an hmg when it is obvious he has none. I'm not responsible for these people, and other players are starting to realize that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    To the point. I myself am 14. People like Incitatus and myself are people who speak what we know. Not the crap some other people say just to act "mature" or "cool". Just because we are young doesn't nesasarily mean we are "young"(meaning psychologicly).




    something like that <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->



    edit: If you do not understand what i just said, I don't blame you. My friends wouldn't so they would say i'm dumb, that i talk no sense and that i should shut up, etc. To be able to understand all the strange stuff i say, you must think about it for a bit first. Hell, i do to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • fragglerocfraggleroc Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2315Members
    yep, the 2 games are different. i still enjoy cs as much as i did in the early days, maybe its because i mostly play in arranged organised matches where tactics/teamwork comes into play. started in beta3 like close to 3yrs ago and i can't say i've mastered cs. i still get owned at times in clanmatches, so cs, like ns, is easy to learn but difficult to master. i play online at times and hackers/cheaters don't really pose much of a threat, they're usually not skilful (that's why they had to resort to cheats) so u can still make them give up by being alert at ya every move. let's not put a fun game down coz of a minority buncha of people who tries to ruin it.

    i'd say- Ignore the idiots (there's bound to be more of em as ns gets more popular) and juz play the damn game (preferably with some good friends). that's what i did and that's why i haven't lost interest in cs. by doing that i don't think you'll be affected by lamers who will jump into ns sooner or later.
  • Cool_HandCool_Hand Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8172Members
    actually it is starting already. Ive been called cheater and camper about 20 times in the last 5 days. not to mention other flames all day long, because some rambo marines think they can actually own all the aliens alone and when they die, they flame the alien who killed em. or some arrogant **obscenity** (we all know em) who think they are the greatest because they can kill skulks easily without dying with HA and HMGs.
    from trying to talk to those "whiners" I found out they all were very new to this game and were playing CS before, so I just hope they will loose interest in this game...
    maybe its just on the servers I play on (european) since I found out that europeans tend to freak out much faster than i.e. americans.
  • zodazoda Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7175Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most people see the CS community as an immature fragfest, but then that 's what it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    ........ right


    CS and NS are NOTHING ALIKE.. beside the half-life engine.
  • IncitatusIncitatus Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4316Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Zedix+Nov 23 2002, 01:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zedix @ Nov 23 2002, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is some pretty good points made in this thread. I personnaly was present at the very start (almost) of the CS community, around Beta 3. The NS community actually brings back souvenirs from the early CS community... Gooseman and Cliffe posting news almost weekly, and talking in the forums like Flayra and such are doing.

    Although this MOD is growing quite quickly, more quickly surely than any other mod for HL (probably because it's so different, and not a CS clone), I surely hope it does not become as popular as CS now. Cs went downhill about when it went retail. Now anyone could get their hands on it, and hackers and newbies and whiners (etc...) came in the community and, well, it sucked.

    That is why when people say "NS should go retail!!", i cringe... and go to play another NS game before it gets ruined <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Ok i'm getting paranoyed <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    exactly!
  • DoombringerDoombringer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8679Members, Constellation
    Man. Only 22 and I feel so.. old.
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