Fades Are Overpowered
Cup_of_Squirrels
Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26824Members
Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26824Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Am I the only one here who thinks this?</div> Recently I have noticed the one thing that completely turns the tide in ns games: fade.
I have always thought fades are overpowered for the res they cost, and it seems now that they truly are. You can easily become a fade within 4 minutes of a game, and while the marines still have lmg its just overkill: even with HMG they're a flipping pain to kill.
The only real way to take the bastards down is with HA or skilled JPers, and they both cost a bomb to get at least half the team equipped, especially if you're going to give them all HMGs.
Time after time I have been in games with marines controlling half/3 quarters of the res nodes and still lose just because one player fades, let alone 2.
But what are your views on this? I say we either 1. Make fades cost more or 2. Make them weaker. Problem is, this is one of those "Let's split the community apart" discussions, so lets try and respect each other's views ok?
I have always thought fades are overpowered for the res they cost, and it seems now that they truly are. You can easily become a fade within 4 minutes of a game, and while the marines still have lmg its just overkill: even with HMG they're a flipping pain to kill.
The only real way to take the bastards down is with HA or skilled JPers, and they both cost a bomb to get at least half the team equipped, especially if you're going to give them all HMGs.
Time after time I have been in games with marines controlling half/3 quarters of the res nodes and still lose just because one player fades, let alone 2.
But what are your views on this? I say we either 1. Make fades cost more or 2. Make them weaker. Problem is, this is one of those "Let's split the community apart" discussions, so lets try and respect each other's views ok?
Comments
But to balance that, you can have a pro marine who dominates for the first 4 mins, and caps every RT in that duration.
And that's not to say that fades can't die- hold your posisitons when they appear until HMGs arrive, then take up a position at the end of a corridor and wait for him to make a mistake and blink towards you.
Even then, that's not the only way to kill them. Get an un-parasited marine to stand beside the corridor the fade will come through, and get him to block it off after the fade has passed him- even pub plays have caught onto this.
(Also, bear in mind that, assuming a 6v6 match, res is split evenly across the alien team, so 50 resource points becomes 50*6 = 300 res for the Kharaa. Even with a flash fade, that's the equivalent of marines saving up 150 res- enough for 4 HA/HMG/welder combos)
The fade are the kharaa's shocktrooper, and NS is greatly balanced around them,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have always thought fades are overpowered for the res they cost, and it seems now that they truly are. You can easily become a fade within 4 minutes of a game, and while the marines still have lmg its just overkill: even with HMG they're a flipping pain to kill.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With a bit of aim and level 1 armor/guns a fade is easily solo'd if you can dodge and the fade gets greedy I'd say thats pretty liberal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only real way to take the bastards down is with HA or skilled JPers, and they both cost a bomb to get at least half the team equipped, especially if you're going to give them all HMGs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learn to block them and they'll go down, especially in a huge **** pub.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Time after time I have been in games with marines controlling half/3 quarters of the res nodes and still lose just because one player fades, let alone 2.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you lose with that much resflow its not the fades fault, your marines either can't aim or have a really weak commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But what are your views on this? I say we either 1. Make fades cost more or 2. Make them weaker. Problem is, this is one of those "Let's split the community apart" discussions, so lets try and respect each other's views ok?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Change blink back to where it didn't have that little "jump" it gives now.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are probably in the very small minority with this claim unless by solo'ing you are getting medspammed by the comm.
Wrong. He wouldnt have gone greedy vs 3-4 rines <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Edit:
Thus said: I am more likely to die vs a lone rine than a group of them <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Wrong. He wouldnt have gone greedy vs 3-4 rines <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a pub he may have fled succsessfully but if it was a scrim our comm would've comm chair blocked him before he could even think about running.
I have always thought fades are overpowered for the res they cost, and it seems now that they truly are. You can easily become a fade within 4 minutes of a game, and while the marines still have lmg its just overkill: even with HMG they're a flipping pain to kill.
The only real way to take the bastards down is with HA or skilled JPers, and they both cost a bomb to get at least half the team equipped, especially if you're going to give them all HMGs.
Time after time I have been in games with marines controlling half/3 quarters of the res nodes and still lose just because one player fades, let alone 2.
But what are your views on this? I say we either 1. Make fades cost more or 2. Make them weaker. Problem is, this is one of those "Let's split the community apart" discussions, so lets try and respect each other's views ok? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, you aren't the only one who thinks this, there is a whole bunch of people that need the game to balance around their needs rather than the game as a whole.
If you weaken the fade, who will stop heavies? Onos? no. fades are the backbone to alien tech tree, as their ultimate lifeform isn't as versatile or powerful as the fade (if used well).
If fades are more expensive or easier to kill it will shift the entire balance of the aliens, making the the early game skulks/lerks more dependent on the second hive defense.
That allows the marines a load of oppurtunities for more shotgun attacks/rushes.
Also it would allow the marine team to keep their expansions longer to most likely tech heavies a lot quicker.
Fades free up skulks because they are able to take down multiple marines. Skulks can use that time to pressure the marine base, or more likely hit their nodes to slow their tech.
Easier killing fades/more expensive fades will break the spines of the alien mid to late game play.
A way to stop/delay fades is to go out and RUSH alien nodes in the beginning of the game.
The players determine when the fades come out, better marines mean later fades and vice versa.
And, Firewater, if the marines were ever able to get their team suited up with heavies and the alien team does not have an onos, fades and skulks won't be able to take them out.
One server-side update ahead of you <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Seriously, we are aware of the issues surrounding the Fade. There are several possible models to solve the problem, but since the class is, as CWAG and others noted, the centerpiece of alien balance, it's actually a rather big deal. In other words, don't expect a fast fix. If it's fast, it's likely no fix.
And, Firewater, if the marines were ever able to get their team suited up with heavies and the alien team does not have an onos, fades and skulks won't be able to take them out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you base this statement on what, exactly? i ask because it's completely wrong
Telling me exactly why you think what I said was wrong would help me argue my position. It doesn't exactly help if you just say "You're wrong" and then go about your merry way.
Telling me exactly why you think what I said was wrong would help me argue my position. It doesn't exactly help if you just say "You're wrong" and then go about your merry way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your assuming the fade is alone based on your post, but you will find that in most games theres quite alot of other aliens accompanying the fade too, since the fades cause alot of chaos(as their role is to), and so people think it as a chance to get some kills.
Although, when I play Marines in a large group, I take special care to only aim at the shadow skulks who follow the fade into battle, because they are the ones who will be killing the most marines if you don't kill them first.
Although, when I play Marines in a large group, I take special care to only aim at the shadow skulks who follow the fade into battle, because they are the ones who will be killing the most marines if you don't kill them first. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
depends on the situation. If you need to defend an area aim at the skulks, but if you need to kill the fade, aim at the fade. The fade might go down if everyone targets it at the same time, which might be more of an advantage then the disadvantage of losing 3-4 marines is. Skulks will kill you the next time the fade runs in anyways, so if you don't kill the fade you take more damage in the long run. On the other side, a PG can't go up if all the builder marines are dead.
Learn to block them and they'll go down, especially in a huge **** pub. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem with that is alot of people are too worried about their K/D and don't realise most fades will have low energy and you can quite easily kill them face on.
If you nerf the Fade, Marines will dominate the field with Shotguns
Nerf the Shotgun and you get good skulks dominating the field
Nerf the skulk and then I along with many players leave NS <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Theoretically you could up the rest cost of fade to 60 but I doubt that will ever happen.
besides the most powerful thing out there is teamwork, Yes it's EXTREMELY RARE these days in the NS community but when one team has it, the other gets severely destroyed no matter how high their upgrades are.
Wrong. Focus/Celerity fade(s) are better against heavy trains than a 2 hive onos. The onos has no problem entering combat and clearing paths for skulks, but they very rarely retreat due to their slow speed. ESPECIALLY if the commander knows how to comm chair block. The onos is a one/two time meat shield, where as the fades can provide more of a distraction, provided they are competant.
Fades are just as effective going into combat because of their speed (closing the gap for the skulks) and survival rate is greater than the onos, even with the comm chair blocking, they still have a better chance.
In either case, if heavies come out at one hive, it really doesn't matter, chances are the aliens are going to lose, onos or not UNLESS the second hive is going up and the aliens have enough res to drop sens chambers.
one LMG clip can do 500 hit points
one pistol clip can do 200 hit points
so assuming you only miss a few bullets, you can kill a fade with 0 weapon upgrade light machine gun and pistol.
adding a second player with decent aim, and the fade is dead
anyhow.. celerity adds too much to the fade, imo.
And ecspecially in scrims with only 6 players on a team..50 res is NOT cheap
It has some good analysis of the fade and it's effects. )
There are a few core issues with the fade:
1) It's effectiveness is extremely dependant on the skill level (and some could easily argue the configuration and system) of the player. This means that while a novice or mediocre fade is dangerous, but handlable without problems, the really high end fades can get kill to death ratios of 70+ to each death. The high end fades are what cuase the biggest problems, seeing as they can only really be killed through luck.
2) The fade plays far too important a role in the kharaa team. It can easily be argued that a fade is obsolutely needed for the kharaa to win against compatent marines. Becuase of this, any major change to the fade, is going to change the entire game almost.
3) The game is not balanced for more than one early fade. Notice noone really talked about what to do when more than one fade appears early? It's becuase two good fades (not even high end, just good) can essentially guarantee a victory (early on). While they may eventually be killed, they tip the scales in the kharaa's favor too much to be countered (without a great, great, deal of luck).
Also, against a well played heavy train, fades are no more annoying than skulks. If you've seen skulks or fades take one down through anything but attrition, it was either luck, or ineptitude on the marines party. In pure combat, the heavy train is the ultimate in NS. What balances it out, is the difficulty of getting it around. The best counter for a heavy train isn't to kill it, it is to go attack somewhere else.
This topic has been brought up before, and will probably be around as long as this incarnation of the game exists. It appears to me that not much can be done about it in this version, so I'm just hoping it will be fixed in NS:S.
No and its perfectly legal in cal, you can comm chair block as long as a skulk can still fit through.
personaly i don't care what the devs position on it is nor cal, i rank cc blocking right up there with exploits, if someone cc blocks me as a fade/onos i'll just leave and go play on another server with a different comm wether i died or not.
Bah wrong button.
Anyway, I agree that two fades means that the marine team is sort of totally screwed. I don't play in a clan or anything of the sort, so I don't know if you with mad skills can win such fights easily enough to make it no problem at all, but if you lose in a PUB just because there are two of something... then it's not going to be much fun to play marines. Which usually leads to people dropping off and going to do something more entertaining.
Unless I'm mistaken, this is very bad for everyone, seeing as the clan scene also needs new players, and if noone wants to stay and learn the game, there won't be any...