Relocating To A Hive
RuneGrey
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4844Members
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4844Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...a good way to lose.</div> One of the main things that I hear people espousing as an effective tactic is that the marines should literally pack up and move to a hive, and thus fortifying themselves inside and 'denying' the hive to the aliens.
I have very rarely seen this perticular tactic actually WORK on any of the maps, especially when everything is just abandoned at the main base, and the hive is captured with a base established inside of it. If this happens... you're commander really needs to have a second look at their tactics.
The main point of NS is not to play the game as a deathmatch session, with all or nothing tactics that might or might not win the game for you. And the hive takeover tactic is one of these all or nothing attacks - while it might keep you from being swamped with Onos for the entire game, it isn't going to actually save you from losing the game. Most people are quite aware by this point that a pair or trio of fades can crack open any base defenses. Including yours.
While a Hive SHOULD be secured in good time, it should not be an all or nothing prospect for you. The marines are dependant on dividing and controling the map - as has been mentioned earlier on in other threads, this map is about zones of control. If you focus so greatly on controlling one area, you utlimate cede control of the remainder of the map to the enemy. Remember, aliens can function modestly well without resources - marines can't. Commanders need to identify critical choke points, and sieze those - fortunately, most of the time those choke points are often at or around one alien hive, thus factoring the critical 'anti-onos' tactic into most commmander's strategies.
Take NS_Nothing, often considered to be the least marine friendly map in the entire game. This map is in actuality probably the BEST map for marines, as it allows a truely agressive and forward expanding commander to really shine. By moving foward and capturing three choke points - the hallway outside of the Quad Elevator Lift, the Generator room, and the Cargo Bay Foyer hive location - the marines gain control of eight resource nodes with the benefit of being able to only spend the resources to fortify three locations, instead of eight. With four phase gates, you can rapidly move your marines to whatever area is currently under attack (this can be reduced to three by moving your marines to the Generator Room - NOT the Cargo Bay Foyer hive - and making that your centralized command base and respawn point). Drop down seige turrets in the Generator Room and in the area outside the Quad lift, and you can clear out enemy defenses in preperation for an assault on either the Viaduct or PowerStation hives.
The key is knowing the maps that you are playing - don't ever cede ground to the enemy unless you have no choice, or the area you are fight over is drawing resources away that you need for another axis of attack (if nothing else, continuing to contest an area with only one or two marines manages to keep the alien's attention focused on that point, and away from your operations elsewhere). Every resource node is critical for the commander - the more that you can hold, the earlier it is going to be on your troops. The aliens might be willing to skulk about in the shadows - move bodly, and never give ground you don't have to.
I have very rarely seen this perticular tactic actually WORK on any of the maps, especially when everything is just abandoned at the main base, and the hive is captured with a base established inside of it. If this happens... you're commander really needs to have a second look at their tactics.
The main point of NS is not to play the game as a deathmatch session, with all or nothing tactics that might or might not win the game for you. And the hive takeover tactic is one of these all or nothing attacks - while it might keep you from being swamped with Onos for the entire game, it isn't going to actually save you from losing the game. Most people are quite aware by this point that a pair or trio of fades can crack open any base defenses. Including yours.
While a Hive SHOULD be secured in good time, it should not be an all or nothing prospect for you. The marines are dependant on dividing and controling the map - as has been mentioned earlier on in other threads, this map is about zones of control. If you focus so greatly on controlling one area, you utlimate cede control of the remainder of the map to the enemy. Remember, aliens can function modestly well without resources - marines can't. Commanders need to identify critical choke points, and sieze those - fortunately, most of the time those choke points are often at or around one alien hive, thus factoring the critical 'anti-onos' tactic into most commmander's strategies.
Take NS_Nothing, often considered to be the least marine friendly map in the entire game. This map is in actuality probably the BEST map for marines, as it allows a truely agressive and forward expanding commander to really shine. By moving foward and capturing three choke points - the hallway outside of the Quad Elevator Lift, the Generator room, and the Cargo Bay Foyer hive location - the marines gain control of eight resource nodes with the benefit of being able to only spend the resources to fortify three locations, instead of eight. With four phase gates, you can rapidly move your marines to whatever area is currently under attack (this can be reduced to three by moving your marines to the Generator Room - NOT the Cargo Bay Foyer hive - and making that your centralized command base and respawn point). Drop down seige turrets in the Generator Room and in the area outside the Quad lift, and you can clear out enemy defenses in preperation for an assault on either the Viaduct or PowerStation hives.
The key is knowing the maps that you are playing - don't ever cede ground to the enemy unless you have no choice, or the area you are fight over is drawing resources away that you need for another axis of attack (if nothing else, continuing to contest an area with only one or two marines manages to keep the alien's attention focused on that point, and away from your operations elsewhere). Every resource node is critical for the commander - the more that you can hold, the earlier it is going to be on your troops. The aliens might be willing to skulk about in the shadows - move bodly, and never give ground you don't have to.
Comments
how many onos do you see when they atack you ? 1? 2? 3? faddes do the most of the damage onos just finishes the job
( i don't speak very good english sorry for any mistakes )
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I've used it before with pretty good success, as long as my Marines are compliant. And I'm not a very good commander. The advantages of this strategy have been discussed many times before so I won't go into that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The main point of NS is not to play the game as a deathmatch session, with all or nothing tactics that might or might not win the game for you.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hold on-- what does taking risks have to do with deathmatch? What's wrong with gambling on a strategy? And isn't <i>everything</i> you do a "might or might not win" kind of thing? I challenge you to come up with a tactic which is 100%-surefire-guaranteed-to-win.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>And the hive takeover tactic is one of these all or nothing attacks - while it might keep you from being swamped with Onos for the entire game, it isn't going to actually save you from losing the game.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it won't save you for sure-- but you'll stand a much better chance without Onos crawling all over the map. That's the whole point. If you can pull it off, you've done yourself much more good than bad.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Most people are quite aware by this point that a pair or trio of fades can crack open any base defenses. Including yours.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your point is?. . .
How could it be any other way? Are you advocating a strategy that is completely impervious to Fades?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>While a Hive SHOULD be secured in good time, it should not be an all or nothing prospect for you.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The more time that passes, the greater the chance that the Aliens will take the third Hive and fortify it before you attack. Securing it as soon as possible is a sound objective, although I agree that it shouldn't be done so soon that your only CC and infantry portals are destroyed before you have the chance to build others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b> The marines are dependant on dividing and controling the map - as has been mentioned earlier on in other threads, this map is about zones of control.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Setting up base in a third Hive and area control aren't mutually exclusive objectives. In fact, one could argue that the third Hive is the most important single zone of control on the map-- and therefore worth more, though not necessarily all, effort than any other location.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b> If you focus so greatly on controlling one area, you utlimate cede control of the remainder of the map to the enemy.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The basic idea behind the third Hive rush is that you can take it before the Aliens have had a chance to fortify it. So actually securing it shouldn't take that much effort; you probably won't be fighting the bulk of the Alien team. If you relocate entirely-- infantry portals, CC, and all-- controlling the Hive area should be no harder than controlling the Marine spawn, and in some cases it may even be easier (depending on the size of the Hive, number of routes in, etc.). Moving to the third Hive doesn't mean you have to cede control of the rest of the map anymore than does holding on to the Marine spawn, besides the fact that it takes some time to achieve.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b> Remember, aliens can function modestly well without resources - marines can't. Commanders need to identify critical choke points, and sieze those - fortunately, most of the time those choke points are often at or around one alien hive, thus factoring the critical 'anti-onos' tactic into most commmander's strategies.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, it is very important to sieze certain choke points. But, in my opinion, the third Hive is the most valuable choke point to sieze, <i>and the sooner you sieze it the better.</i> It is easiest to attack in the beginning; after that, it only gets harder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The key is knowing the maps that you are playing - don't ever cede ground to the enemy unless you have no choice, or the area you are fight over is drawing resources away that you need for another axis of attack (if nothing else, continuing to contest an area with only one or two marines manages to keep the alien's attention focused on that point, and away from your operations elsewhere). Every resource node is critical for the commander - the more that you can hold, the earlier it is going to be on your troops. The aliens might be willing to skulk about in the shadows - move bodly, and never give ground you don't have to. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. . . this is all good advice.
Today, I played about 5 games on one server and lost 4 while trying this strat to re-locate. Half the team didn't obey anything about re-locating since they value the original spawn to much. And they don't get the whole idea of why we have to re-locate.
To me, not re-locating is both stupid/foolish and smart. I say this because you do NOT have to re-locate immedately from the start. That is the reason we lost 4/5. We took dramatic steps to the hive and got raped due to low partication and good Kharaa players. Most games are played by building up the main spawn and then slowly advancing to the nearest hive but by then, they will have heavy resistance if not 3 hives and an <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> after you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But if I was personally playing with friends in my local Internet Cafe that can actually coordinate and expand quickly to the hive first thing, this strat will work. If you can actually secure a hive location and recylce your main base, you have many pros and cons. A con would be that they know where you are and will concentrate on you. Some pros would be that you have 1 of 3 hives and so they can't get 3 chambers up which means less upgrades, less evolutions, and less attacks.
I believe that many Marines are scared and reluctant to go re-locate to a hive because they don't understand how it will effect their game. They don't understand that the main base has nothing important in there except a mere ONE resource tower which btw...the hive location has to my experiance.
A good marine team would have very few to no problems securing the 1st and usually the nearest hive. Building up and seige crawling to the next hive if nessacary. Once you have 2 hives + a good marine team, the game is usually over since the highest evolution is a lurk and everything will have only 2 attacks.
I like to call it hive-base rush. And it WORKS. OK, fine, 40 percent of the marine team are n00bs. I'll give you that. Team of 8 marines, 7 soldiers. 3 of them are useless, and will stay at base while screaming "BUILD SPAWNS WTWFWFWFWFWFFFF", and slowly deterring the skulk rush if they can aim worth beans. Meanwhile, your other 4 marines have moved with great speed to an [unoccupied] enemy hive. Any lone skulk scanning the perimeter is immediately owned on contact. 4 LMGs rip apart non-armored skulks. They get to the hive, and there's some nice shiny infantry portals and CC chair waiting for them.
Aliens have 8 players. 40 percent are n00bs. 3 go gorge, and 2 of the gorges are n00b. You have 3 efficient skulks, and 2 n00b skulks. 3 efficient skulks can, should, and always will take out a tightly-nit group of 4 marines. But you're not going to have those 3 efficient skulks at that unoccupied hive, waiting for this group of marines. They're gonna be rushing to deter the marines!
The n00b marines back at base, kill some, and eventually die. The CC gets chewed, and everyone is safely (after spawning) at the hive. A couple of smart skulks have wandered in, investigating all the noise (and get freshly plastered to the wall). How much time did the marines lose, when it comes to building essential buildings? 20-30 seconds for the travel, but realistically, nothing at all. And after you factor in the fact that you've just fully secured a 3rd hive site, WHICH YOU WERE GOING TO DO ANYWAYS LATER ON IN THE GAME, you just saved yourself A LOT of time.
Plus, the resource back at home will stay alive for quite awhile, because the skulks go for the super armored CC, not the resource. You'll get a significant chunk of change just from that.
The efficiency of this strategy varies from map to map. Bast is an utter **obscenity** to do it on, due to the vents, placement of the hives, and ways to go to the other hives. Nancy is extremely hive-base friendly. Eclipse is very fun if the aliens spawn in Maintenance or Eclipse, because the dispute that happens at Computer Cure is AWESOME. Really makes the game shine. Tabith's connectivity is a bit like bast's, but nothing that marine unfriendly.
All things being equal (40 percent n00b), hive-base rush DOES work, in most maps.
If you can't hold a hive with marines spawning in, you sure can't hold it with marines spawning somewhere else. While you do have a map specific point about choke-points, remember that the goal is never to just hold one hive, it's to hold 2 on the way to 3. If you're only holding one, you are either slow or getting slammed by the aliens.
If my team has two hives, even if we only have 3 resource points it's enough. Why? Because with HA/JP and SG/HMG/GL, my troops kill skulks by the truckload. When they eventually die, there's resources to fix them up. Any marine who dies repeatedly to skulks wearing HA with an HMG isn't going to get new gear from me very fast.
I could care less what the aliens are doing on the other 90% of the map. If I hold 2 hives and the route to the 3rd, its <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> and "gg".
I've always found ns_nothing to be extremly marine friendly. One hive location with three resources nodes immediately adjecent? I'd send all my marines there right away ... if you can take and hold -only- that, those three resource nodes will give you a reasonable chance to win a drawn-out game.
Oddly enough it happened again a few rounds later when I was playing as an alien. We destroyed the CC and noticed that the one person was still alive. Then they started respawning as we bolted. They turreted up a one-entrance hive location and handed out grenade launchers like candy. A group of 4 marines took turns spamming the one enterance with nades, using a ammo center to reload so they wouldn't have to wait as long, with two marines on constant-weld duty and 3 gunners holding back for if anything broke through. Deprived of bile bomb (this was a b1.03 server, so it was effective in cracking down defenses) and onos, we found it VERY difficult to break them, even though they had been completely boxed in to one location. They sieged up as well, destroying nearby defense chambers.
Eventually we got 'em by having almost the entire team go Fade with Carapace, and building a mess of defense chambers out of range. I think we had 7 fades who would alternate attacking and healing in groups, and a gorge to heal, and one lerk to umbra (assuming it didn't get blown up right away). It was very rough because of the narrow hallway, the fact that you'd need to jump over two rows of turrets to get in the base, and the constant exploding grenades in the hallway that would kill very quickly. But our system wore them down and we destroyed most of the turrets blocking the doorway, rushed in, almost all died, but were back and keeping up the pressure before they could rebuild all those turrets.
What I'm trying to get at is that sitting a spawn on a hive can be brutally effective, especially when things go downhill. It eliminates the possibility of the marines having to defend their base against the incredible three-hive weaponry of the aliens, and means even in the worst-case the aliens may simply not be able to break the marine's hold. And I'm certain if the team that I faced were a little more industrious, they may have even been able to push us back and try to get a pair of HMG jetpackers on a hive or something like that.
Admin Givepoints 5000 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Get the hive, set it up, and move on to the next.