Quote is from a mostly off topic post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?showtopic=97885" target="_blank">this</a> thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1566816:date=Sep 19 2006, 01:06 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 19 2006, 01:06 AM) [snapback]1566816[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Frankly as a long standing member of this community I don't trust the powers that be here much any more. After extensive analysis I don't think there's a massive amount of game design talent behind NS and I'm not sure anyone ever really learned from their past mistakes in the project because it certainly seems like no one has gotten around to fixing them. This community and project have been mismanaged in nearly every way since their conception at one point or another, some of those issues have been rectified and some have not.
In my opinion flayra needs to prove that NS wasn't just a lucky hit on an arbitrary formula still, and this company as a whole needs to show more professionalism and administrative responsibility in their public gathering places.
As much as I've love to rant and rave and curse people out for the crap that has been going on I'd much rather see this community succeed because of what the people here have meant to me in the past and the experiences I've had here despite the <strike>best efforts of administration to ruin that</strike> the unfortunate circumstances that have befallen this community. At this point I'm not willing to invest in any project here through donation, but that being said, I'm not willing to stop observing what is happening and reconsidering in the future. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the idea that NS was a fluke, and that Flayra is unlikely to produce another innovative game. As I see it, most people only have one really good idea in 'em anyway. I'm confused about the mistakes and mismanagement issue you're talking about, though. There's the two forum downtimes that I'm aware of (2 months for one and 1 year for the other), but other than that I haven't really seen the community being neglected or mistreated. Can you elaborate?
Alcapwn"War is the science of destruction" - John AbbotJoin Date: 2003-06-21Member: 17590Members
<!--quoteo(post=1567102:date=Sep 20 2006, 04:43 PM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ Sep 20 2006, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1567102[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Quote is from a mostly off topic post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?showtopic=97885" target="_blank">this</a> thread. I understand the idea that NS was a fluke, and that Flayra is unlikely to produce another innovative game. As I see it, most people only have one really good idea in 'em anyway. I'm confused about the mistakes and mismanagement issue you're talking about, though. There's the two forum downtimes that I'm aware of (2 months for one and 1 year for the other), but other than that I haven't really seen the community being neglected or mistreated. Can you elaborate? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think 2 years of development (Flayra started coding in 2000, correct?) a "Fluke"
<!--quoteo(post=1567119:date=Sep 20 2006, 06:04 PM:name=WaterBoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WaterBoy @ Sep 20 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]1567119[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think 2 years of development (Flayra started coding in 2000, correct?) a "Fluke"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was speaking about the "Marine vs. Alien asymmetrical RTS/FPS hybrid" idea. It's a damn good idea, and I think NS is very well executed. The coding is not a fluke; the dedication is not a fluke. The question there is - can Flayra make another game that's as good or better than NS? It's unlikely that he's got any ideas that are nearly as innovative as NS was when it came out. I'm not saying that'a bad thing, either. When you have a gameplay idea as good as NS, it's a tough act to follow.
<!--quoteo(post=1567102:date=Sep 20 2006, 03:43 PM:name=SnappyCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SnappyCrunch @ Sep 20 2006, 03:43 PM) [snapback]1567102[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Quote is from a mostly off topic post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?showtopic=97885" target="_blank">this</a> thread. I understand the idea that NS was a fluke, and that Flayra is unlikely to produce another innovative game. As I see it, most people only have one really good idea in 'em anyway. I'm confused about the mistakes and mismanagement issue you're talking about, though. There's the two forum downtimes that I'm aware of (2 months for one and 1 year for the other), but other than that I haven't really seen the community being neglected or mistreated. Can you elaborate? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The forum downage is huge, the inability to deal with zunni, the way the IRC channel is run, the constellation system is pretty questionable, the loss of virtually every contributing developer to NS aside from flayra.
As per the fluke comment. My concern isn't that flayra couldn't think up another innovative game, I'm concerned that he really doesn't get from a design perspective why NS worked in the first place and what is still fundamentally wrong with the game. I've spent alot of time working with RTS developers and chatting design with them, and from an RTS standpoint NS is a REALLY REALLY weak game, and it's not because of a lack of huge unit trees and tech trees, it's because it lacks the fundamental building block that makes an RTS game a good game. Action -> counter methodology.
<!--quoteo(post=1567144:date=Sep 20 2006, 07:36 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 20 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]1567144[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The forum downage is huge, the inability to deal with zunni, the way the IRC channel is run, the constellation system is pretty questionable, the loss of virtually every contributing developer to NS aside from flayra.
As per the fluke comment. My concern isn't that flayra couldn't think up another innovative game, I'm concerned that he really doesn't get from a design perspective why NS worked in the first place and what is still fundamentally wrong with the game. I've spent alot of time working with RTS developers and chatting design with them, and from an RTS standpoint NS is a REALLY REALLY weak game, and it's not because of a lack of huge unit trees and tech trees, it's because it lacks the fundamental building block that makes an RTS game a good game. Action -> counter methodology. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Perhaps I missed this, or forgot it, but what was the drama with Zunni? 2) What makes the constellation system questionable? 3) I know that developers have come and gone, but did any of them leave over a difference of opinion about where NS was going? I thought most of them left because coding NS is pretty much a full time job in terms of the man-hours necessary, and they had other real life commitments. 4) In your opinion, what was fundamentally wrong with the game from the beginning, what's been fixed, and what new flaws have been added? 4b) How does NS gameplay differ in a substantial way from RTS gameplay, or where can I find out more about good RTS design?
1) From my understanding they fired him for asking why there was no developmental movement at some point 3-4 months after the site was down on his blog. Zunni was PR, they killed any ability for him to do PR, and when he inevitably complained about it they fired him. To me this defines incompetence.
2) It broadcasts ever member's steam id publicly on the internet for one... Also I think it's just a bad practice to build a free to play game and then expect to live off donations. Not a single other mod team did this to the same scale as flayra did, yet I still hear complaints about funding.
3) They left for various reasons. I recall alot developmental of frustration over when flayra stepped back from the project but still required all decisions run through him.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited September 2006
1) This is not what happened. Stop making stuff up Swift.
2) To my knowledge, nobody has *ever* complained to us about the steamid list. We don't broadcast it btw, there is some basic protection on the list.
3) Seriously, you're like some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist looking for something to do. "I recall alot developmental of frustration" - stop trying to make it sound like you know what goes on behind closed doors.
Seriously, have all the gripes you want about NS, you are welcome to post your thoughts and complaints. But you have to spot fabricating lies about us, or we will be forced to take action.
1)I've read Zunni's blog, and I know he was frustrated being NS's PR person while having very little information to release, and no control over how that information was released. He says that he resigned over his frustration with the process, but cited other reasons to Flayra. The forums were hacked shortly thereafter; Zunni was not stripped of his access to anything, and actually went into talks with Flayra to be switched over to a code developer. Then, shortly after posting the state of things as he saw them, his access was stripped from him. I understand feeling hurt because someone trusted has said negative things about what is going on. I also understand that he had technically already resigned. The timing is, though, very suspicious, and makes it look like Zunni was "fired" for posting negative things about the dev team's priorities.
2) The only place where I can see SteamIDs available to the internet at large is in the "Update SteamID" section of a user profile; the page is not encrypted. Honestly, though; if someone wanted a list of SteamIDs, all they would need to do is join a bunch of servers and check the "status". Maybe Swift is talking about something else, though.
3) Okay puzl, now you're here to set the record straight - Devs have left over the course of NS's history, and new devs have been added. There is no doubt that they all love NS, and they put their heart and soul into it. The fact remains, though, that some of them are not here anymore. Where can I get information about the timeline and reasoning of the developer history of NS?
3b) "stop trying to make it sound like you know what goes on behind closed doors" - I think the biggest problem, puzl, is that it does all go on behind closed doors. With no PR, the community is forced to resort to wild speculation. Most of it is going to be innacurate, and a lot of it is going to be negative. Zunni was right in his blog - the best way to stop wild speculation and shut up the critics at the same time is to have a constant flow of information from the devs to the players. Also, preferably, the flow of information would also work the other way, too. A dev team that is reactive to it's playerbase is one that keeps it's playerbase.
puzl, I don't think Swift is knowingly posting lies. I think he might be posting innacurate information, but that he is only trying to make sense of all the information he has. And since he doesn't have nearly all the information, his picture of things is going to be innaccurate. This is the perfect chance for you to set the record straight by posting the way things really are, and then backing it up with better information than we have access to.
Thank you for your threats, I wasn't posting lies, I wasn't claiming expertise or that I was stating fact. I don't have really any idea why all the crappy stuff happens here. However, I've never been offered any solid explanation so I've been relying on the statements of people who complain about it and are negatively effected by it, quite understandably my views are likely somewhat skewed. That being said, from my perspective it's quite fair that I view this team, that seems barely capable of maintaining the semblance of functionality compared to other mod dev communities I've been too, as still yet to prove them selfs. I was asked for my opinions are and why they have led me to decide I won't be donating in the near future, not for an objective recounting of facts here. I was trying to express my point of view, not state fact or argue with reality, as you stated, I am not the inner circle and I have not seen what is going on behind closed doors, I can only recount what I have learned via proxy through people. I represent a standard case of what the rumor mill surrounding this community has produced, I claim nothing more.
I'm trying to express as respectfully and inoffensively as I can how disappointed and let down I feel by the past events in this community, most of which resulted from actions by the powers that be on the NS team. I'm not trying to post lies of fabrications, that is why I used terminology such as "from my understanding" and "I recall".
I want to make clear here that I'm not here to make drama, the fact that I am here to me means that I haven't given up on you guys completely yet as little as that means in retrospective. I want to make it very clear though, that unlike others around here, I really can't offer you mindless worship any more, even if it was something I would have readily done in the past. If you don't want to hear about my views on your diplomatic problems that's fine with me, I really don't have alot to say anyways, I'd much rather just offer a clean slate and keep my input gameplay relevant, because that's what I really care about anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1567191:date=Sep 21 2006, 01:36 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Sep 21 2006, 01:36 AM) [snapback]1567191[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 1) This is not what happened. Stop making stuff up Swift.
2) To my knowledge, nobody has *ever* complained to us about the steamid list. We don't broadcast it btw, there is some basic protection on the list.
3) Seriously, you're like some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist looking for something to do. "I recall alot developmental of frustration" - stop trying to make it sound like you know what goes on behind closed doors.
Seriously, have all the gripes you want about NS, you are welcome to post your thoughts and complaints. But you have to spot fabricating lies about us, or we will be forced to take action. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you might want to brush up on your PR skills there Puzl, or just hide from the forums when they go public, becauce for the first few weeks after this site goes public, your going to see more of these threads than flamethrower threads. Although, thats assuming people come to post, if it wasnt for the suprised constie email I got, I never would have know this site was still even hosted.
With a community so small now anyways, why is nearly everything interesting always "behind closed doors"?, alot of 3rd party mods release at least partial changelogs to new builds, keep the playerbase updated on what is going on, etc.
you wonder why speculation about EVERYTHING happens and why there is a thousand posts saying "what is going on with ns?"
It's because you release a build, then nobody hears anything whatsoever until the next build is release 5-6 months later
Would giving the game's playerbase an idea of what is going on really kill ns? Is it worth losing more players everyday because they feel nothing is happening in the game?
Sure, you can play the ns:source card, but how long will that be before it is released?
I'm not going to ramble on forever, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, so please don't take it that way, but to keep players interested in the game, you need to give them something realistic to hope for in the near future, whether it be a small snippit of the changes for the next version of the game or a post discussing what is going on with the development team, keeping people in the dark only leads to speculation and negative pr
okay im done <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
edited September 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1567314:date=Sep 22 2006, 12:48 AM:name=Hellabeans)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hellabeans @ Sep 22 2006, 12:48 AM) [snapback]1567314[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> [...]Would giving the game's playerbase an idea of what is going on really kill ns? [...] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We understand that many people think this way. Even we think this way; the thing is that --for better or worse-- we tend to be picky about the timing and content of our info releases. Just in case anyone missed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?s=5257500266845541376&showtopic=97684" target="_blank">the interview with puzl</a> linked earlier in the thread, it does give out a wee bit of info on 3.2.
And although by the thread title you might not think it, you may find something in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?s=5257500266845541376&showtopic=97927" target="_blank">here</a> that will make your mind wander. Days? Weeks? Months? Years? .....Best I can type to anyone is a big question mark, but it <i>is</i> info of some sort...
I see Scythe is now reading this thread. If he posts any changelogs involving onos-guided moon lasers with etch-a-sketch targeting computer upgrades, its a complete lie. We couldn't license the etch-a-sketch brand, so that onos weapon is not upgradeable.
SinSpawnHarbinger of SufferingJoin Date: 2002-11-12Member: 8359Members
Wonder if Dev Journals would solve some problems, it would alteast show those that care and have interests what is going on and being done, wouldn't matter if it is rarely updated but atleast its still update is it not?
I mean all the other cool nifty mods are doing it (do not ask me about which ones)
I love the game, but the community is shrinking rapidly in comparison to other HL mods. You can't just say "Well of course fewer people play NS, the internet is moving on" when older mods that used to have less players than NS, suddenly have more now.
The site being down for so long caused a lot of damage, a lot of people lost interest merely by waiting for things to happen, only they didn't happen, they felt let down and moved on. Not everyone buys this "we know it sucks, but we can't do anything about it so please be patient" for so long.
Not blaming anyone, but that's my analysis.
I'll be first in line for future NS installments though.
<!--quoteo(post=1567208:date=Sep 21 2006, 09:18 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 21 2006, 09:18 AM) [snapback]1567208[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really can't offer you mindless worship any more, even if it was something I would have readily done in the past. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one asked for mindless worship and no one asked you to stop. You don't come across as a particularly pleasant person tbh.
You clearly love this game still or you wouldn't be here. There is no gain from unloading your gripes about development on everyone because you aren't happy with the way things have happened, especially in your hurtful manner.
Rather than moaning about it, why not input with positive ideas and helpful comments, which will boost morale of the community and morale of the developers, to see that what they are trying to do with this game is getting at least some positive response. All this talk about these conspiracies, and dwelling in the past goings-on of the team behind the scenes isn't at all condusive to the further development of NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1567857:date=Sep 25 2006, 11:58 AM:name=viper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(viper @ Sep 25 2006, 11:58 AM) [snapback]1567857[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no gain from unloading your gripes about development on everyone because you aren't happy with the way things have happened, especially in your hurtful manner.
Rather than moaning about it, why not input with positive ideas and helpful comments, which will boost morale of the community and morale of the developers, to see that what they are trying to do with this game is getting at least some positive response. All this talk about these conspiracies, and dwelling in the past goings-on of the team behind the scenes isn't at all condusive to the further development of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, viper. I think that it's occasionally a good thing to point out the flaws without needing to offer solutions. I think it opens up the discussion to people who have good ideas, and allows the addressees to respond in their own way without needing to address all the points of the complainer's "solution".
Also, cutting down the morale of the people who can effectivly change things is, used judiciously, more effective than boosting their morale all the time, no matter what they do.
Understand, this the the NS forums. The people who are regulars here are the ones that love NS. Well reasoned criticism is going to be rare here, and I personally treasure it rather than trying to tell the criticiser that the dev team should be complimented all the time. I feel like you're one of the self-proclaimed "patriots" in the US right now that says people shouldn't criticize the president because we're in a time of war. They say the whole country should be behind him, right or wrong. To my mind, the better patriots are the ones who are willing to point out what the president it doing wrong, so that it can be fixed.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1567640:date=Sep 23 2006, 06:39 PM:name=Buggy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Buggy @ Sep 23 2006, 06:39 PM) [snapback]1567640[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the community is shrinking rapidly in comparison to other HL mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is going to sound strange, but... how do you measure "community", and to which "other HL mods", exactly, are you referring?
I need to know those two things in order to knowledgeably accept or reject that claim.
NS used to have the most players of any HL mod behind CS and DOD. It's now below TFC and HLDM. Of course, it's possible that those mods grew <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
It's been said but I doubt that the site downage was the main cause of those figures dropping, sure it would have contributed to it.
But the simpliest and most logical explaination is that people have pretty much moved on to other things, be it other games (A trend of people moving to playing games on the Source engine is evident) or RL things.
There will always be a hardcore group of the community that hangs around, a large percentage of which probably don't play the game but post on forums and chat on IRC, hoping that the community will pick up and be back to its former self. It's not like this is the death of NS, admittedly things have taken a down turn but the group of us that still have vein hopes of NS coming back to full-life will keep it going (hopefully).
I just used the site downage as a temporal marker, I didn't mean to say it was the cause of this player shortage. I simply didn't bother to look at the server statistics afterwards, having moved on myself in that period. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I think the drop in players serves to underscore how important it is for the players of a mod like this to feel like the have a community, and that they have a dev team that cares about them.
With other games and other mods, the playerbase tends to drop off dramatically once the dev team announces they are stopping development and that there will be no new updates. The same sort of thing happened when the forums went down. Without a nexus (no pun intended) to gather around, the players just sort of drifted away. With no community and no real contact with the dev team, people start to feel alienated. They can only hold out hope for so long.
<!--quoteo(post=1567974:date=Sep 26 2006, 09:06 AM:name=Wiggles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wiggles @ Sep 26 2006, 09:06 AM) [snapback]1567974[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's been said but I doubt that the site downage was the main cause of those figures dropping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is a great game, but it is extremely complicated for newer players to effectively learn the tricks of the trade fast enough to compete with those of us that have years of experience. There is no built in training experience for new players and the site being down for over a year gave newer players no uniform place to come and chat to learn and become a part of the community as a whole. Because of this the community is now split into many small communities where some of the newer players have no idea what there is outside of that one server that they play in, which in most cases is so distorted by plug ins that it is not the real game. When they try to go and play in an actual venilla server they are so confused about not being able to use certain abilities. Personally I have stopped playing because I just could not poor so much time into a game anymore and felt no self rewards for doing so. I dont know if I am the only player that feels that they were constantly lied to for years and finally just couldnt take it anymore but that is how I feel.
If you don't like combat- dont play combat. Simple. ns_ is still alive.
I like how everyone blames combat for the reason why NSPlayer doesn't know what he's doing on an ns_ map. We were all new at one point and NS does have an incredibly steep learning curve.
If you don't like combat- dont play combat. Simple. ns_ is still alive.
I like how everyone blames combat for the reason why NSPlayer doesn't know what he's doing on an ns_ map. We were all new at one point and NS does have an incredibly steep learning curve.
Combat did not "kill" NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat eliminates the motivation for people to move to an ns_ map and learn how to play there.
Comments
<!--quoteo(post=1566816:date=Sep 19 2006, 01:06 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Sep 19 2006, 01:06 AM) [snapback]1566816[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Frankly as a long standing member of this community I don't trust the powers that be here much any more. After extensive analysis I don't think there's a massive amount of game design talent behind NS and I'm not sure anyone ever really learned from their past mistakes in the project because it certainly seems like no one has gotten around to fixing them. This community and project have been mismanaged in nearly every way since their conception at one point or another, some of those issues have been rectified and some have not.
In my opinion flayra needs to prove that NS wasn't just a lucky hit on an arbitrary formula still, and this company as a whole needs to show more professionalism and administrative responsibility in their public gathering places.
As much as I've love to rant and rave and curse people out for the crap that has been going on I'd much rather see this community succeed because of what the people here have meant to me in the past and the experiences I've had here despite the <strike>best efforts of administration to ruin that</strike> the unfortunate circumstances that have befallen this community. At this point I'm not willing to invest in any project here through donation, but that being said, I'm not willing to stop observing what is happening and reconsidering in the future.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understand the idea that NS was a fluke, and that Flayra is unlikely to produce another innovative game. As I see it, most people only have one really good idea in 'em anyway. I'm confused about the mistakes and mismanagement issue you're talking about, though. There's the two forum downtimes that I'm aware of (2 months for one and 1 year for the other), but other than that I haven't really seen the community being neglected or mistreated. Can you elaborate?
Quote is from a mostly off topic post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?showtopic=97885" target="_blank">this</a> thread.
I understand the idea that NS was a fluke, and that Flayra is unlikely to produce another innovative game. As I see it, most people only have one really good idea in 'em anyway. I'm confused about the mistakes and mismanagement issue you're talking about, though. There's the two forum downtimes that I'm aware of (2 months for one and 1 year for the other), but other than that I haven't really seen the community being neglected or mistreated. Can you elaborate?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think 2 years of development (Flayra started coding in 2000, correct?) a "Fluke"
<b>Us:</b> What? When?
<b>NS:</b> Wait and see!!!
<2 years later>
<b>NS: </b> We're still working on that REALLY REALLY cool thing!
<b>Us:</b> What is it again? When will we see it?
<b>NS:</b> Wait and see!!!
*grumble*grumble*
Rad said it best. I'm too lazy to scroll up and quote him. But you should scroll & re-read.
I'm still around because I'm curious & bored... and I miss some of the old NS folks.
I was speaking about the "Marine vs. Alien asymmetrical RTS/FPS hybrid" idea. It's a damn good idea, and I think NS is very well executed. The coding is not a fluke; the dedication is not a fluke. The question there is - can Flayra make another game that's as good or better than NS? It's unlikely that he's got any ideas that are nearly as innovative as NS was when it came out. I'm not saying that'a bad thing, either. When you have a gameplay idea as good as NS, it's a tough act to follow.
Quote is from a mostly off topic post in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?showtopic=97885" target="_blank">this</a> thread.
I understand the idea that NS was a fluke, and that Flayra is unlikely to produce another innovative game. As I see it, most people only have one really good idea in 'em anyway. I'm confused about the mistakes and mismanagement issue you're talking about, though. There's the two forum downtimes that I'm aware of (2 months for one and 1 year for the other), but other than that I haven't really seen the community being neglected or mistreated. Can you elaborate?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The forum downage is huge, the inability to deal with zunni, the way the IRC channel is run, the constellation system is pretty questionable, the loss of virtually every contributing developer to NS aside from flayra.
As per the fluke comment. My concern isn't that flayra couldn't think up another innovative game, I'm concerned that he really doesn't get from a design perspective why NS worked in the first place and what is still fundamentally wrong with the game. I've spent alot of time working with RTS developers and chatting design with them, and from an RTS standpoint NS is a REALLY REALLY weak game, and it's not because of a lack of huge unit trees and tech trees, it's because it lacks the fundamental building block that makes an RTS game a good game. Action -> counter methodology.
The forum downage is huge, the inability to deal with zunni, the way the IRC channel is run, the constellation system is pretty questionable, the loss of virtually every contributing developer to NS aside from flayra.
As per the fluke comment. My concern isn't that flayra couldn't think up another innovative game, I'm concerned that he really doesn't get from a design perspective why NS worked in the first place and what is still fundamentally wrong with the game. I've spent alot of time working with RTS developers and chatting design with them, and from an RTS standpoint NS is a REALLY REALLY weak game, and it's not because of a lack of huge unit trees and tech trees, it's because it lacks the fundamental building block that makes an RTS game a good game. Action -> counter methodology.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Perhaps I missed this, or forgot it, but what was the drama with Zunni?
2) What makes the constellation system questionable?
3) I know that developers have come and gone, but did any of them leave over a difference of opinion about where NS was going? I thought most of them left because coding NS is pretty much a full time job in terms of the man-hours necessary, and they had other real life commitments.
4) In your opinion, what was fundamentally wrong with the game from the beginning, what's been fixed, and what new flaws have been added?
4b) How does NS gameplay differ in a substantial way from RTS gameplay, or where can I find out more about good RTS design?
2) It broadcasts ever member's steam id publicly on the internet for one... Also I think it's just a bad practice to build a free to play game and then expect to live off donations. Not a single other mod team did this to the same scale as flayra did, yet I still hear complaints about funding.
3) They left for various reasons. I recall alot developmental of frustration over when flayra stepped back from the project but still required all decisions run through him.
4) reserved for edit later, this is a long one
2) To my knowledge, nobody has *ever* complained to us about the steamid list. We don't broadcast it btw, there is some basic protection on the list.
3) Seriously, you're like some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist looking for something to do. "I recall alot developmental of frustration" - stop trying to make it sound like you know what goes on behind closed doors.
Seriously, have all the gripes you want about NS, you are welcome to post your thoughts and complaints. But you have to spot fabricating lies about us, or we will be forced to take action.
1)I've read Zunni's blog, and I know he was frustrated being NS's PR person while having very little information to release, and no control over how that information was released. He says that he resigned over his frustration with the process, but cited other reasons to Flayra. The forums were hacked shortly thereafter; Zunni was not stripped of his access to anything, and actually went into talks with Flayra to be switched over to a code developer. Then, shortly after posting the state of things as he saw them, his access was stripped from him. I understand feeling hurt because someone trusted has said negative things about what is going on. I also understand that he had technically already resigned. The timing is, though, very suspicious, and makes it look like Zunni was "fired" for posting negative things about the dev team's priorities.
2) The only place where I can see SteamIDs available to the internet at large is in the "Update SteamID" section of a user profile; the page is not encrypted. Honestly, though; if someone wanted a list of SteamIDs, all they would need to do is join a bunch of servers and check the "status". Maybe Swift is talking about something else, though.
3) Okay puzl, now you're here to set the record straight - Devs have left over the course of NS's history, and new devs have been added. There is no doubt that they all love NS, and they put their heart and soul into it. The fact remains, though, that some of them are not here anymore. Where can I get information about the timeline and reasoning of the developer history of NS?
3b) "stop trying to make it sound like you know what goes on behind closed doors" - I think the biggest problem, puzl, is that it does all go on behind closed doors. With no PR, the community is forced to resort to wild speculation. Most of it is going to be innacurate, and a lot of it is going to be negative. Zunni was right in his blog - the best way to stop wild speculation and shut up the critics at the same time is to have a constant flow of information from the devs to the players. Also, preferably, the flow of information would also work the other way, too. A dev team that is reactive to it's playerbase is one that keeps it's playerbase.
puzl, I don't think Swift is knowingly posting lies. I think he might be posting innacurate information, but that he is only trying to make sense of all the information he has. And since he doesn't have nearly all the information, his picture of things is going to be innaccurate. This is the perfect chance for you to set the record straight by posting the way things really are, and then backing it up with better information than we have access to.
I'm trying to express as respectfully and inoffensively as I can how disappointed and let down I feel by the past events in this community, most of which resulted from actions by the powers that be on the NS team. I'm not trying to post lies of fabrications, that is why I used terminology such as "from my understanding" and "I recall".
I want to make clear here that I'm not here to make drama, the fact that I am here to me means that I haven't given up on you guys completely yet as little as that means in retrospective. I want to make it very clear though, that unlike others around here, I really can't offer you mindless worship any more, even if it was something I would have readily done in the past. If you don't want to hear about my views on your diplomatic problems that's fine with me, I really don't have alot to say anyways, I'd much rather just offer a clean slate and keep my input gameplay relevant, because that's what I really care about anyways.
1) This is not what happened. Stop making stuff up Swift.
2) To my knowledge, nobody has *ever* complained to us about the steamid list. We don't broadcast it btw, there is some basic protection on the list.
3) Seriously, you're like some kind of crazy conspiracy theorist looking for something to do. "I recall alot developmental of frustration" - stop trying to make it sound like you know what goes on behind closed doors.
Seriously, have all the gripes you want about NS, you are welcome to post your thoughts and complaints. But you have to spot fabricating lies about us, or we will be forced to take action.
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you might want to brush up on your PR skills there Puzl, or just hide from the forums when they go public, becauce for the first few weeks after this site goes public, your going to see more of these threads than flamethrower threads. Although, thats assuming people come to post, if it wasnt for the suprised constie email I got, I never would have know this site was still even hosted.
you wonder why speculation about EVERYTHING happens and why there is a thousand posts saying "what is going on with ns?"
It's because you release a build, then nobody hears anything whatsoever until the next build is release 5-6 months later
Would giving the game's playerbase an idea of what is going on really kill ns? Is it worth losing more players everyday because they feel nothing is happening in the game?
Sure, you can play the ns:source card, but how long will that be before it is released?
I'm not going to ramble on forever, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful, so please don't take it that way, but to keep players interested in the game, you need to give them something realistic to hope for in the near future, whether it be a small snippit of the changes for the next version of the game or a post discussing what is going on with the development team, keeping people in the dark only leads to speculation and negative pr
okay im done <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
[...]Would giving the game's playerbase an idea of what is going on really kill ns? [...]
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We understand that many people think this way. Even we think this way; the thing is that --for better or worse-- we tend to be picky about the timing and content of our info releases. Just in case anyone missed <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?s=5257500266845541376&showtopic=97684" target="_blank">the interview with puzl</a> linked earlier in the thread, it does give out a wee bit of info on 3.2.
And although by the thread title you might not think it, you may find something in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com:90/forums/index.php?s=5257500266845541376&showtopic=97927" target="_blank">here</a> that will make your mind wander. Days? Weeks? Months? Years? .....Best I can type to anyone is a big question mark, but it <i>is</i> info of some sort...
I see Scythe is now reading this thread. If he posts any changelogs involving onos-guided moon lasers with etch-a-sketch targeting computer upgrades, its a complete lie. We couldn't license the etch-a-sketch brand, so that onos weapon is not upgradeable.
I mean all the other cool nifty mods are doing it (do not ask me about which ones)
You can't just say "Well of course fewer people play NS, the internet is moving on" when older mods that used to have less players than NS, suddenly have more now.
The site being down for so long caused a lot of damage, a lot of people lost interest merely by waiting for things to happen, only they didn't happen, they felt let down and moved on. Not everyone buys this "we know it sucks, but we can't do anything about it so please be patient" for so long.
Not blaming anyone, but that's my analysis.
I'll be first in line for future NS installments though.
Don't worry, I still can! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" />
No one asked for mindless worship and no one asked you to stop. You don't come across as a particularly pleasant person tbh.
You clearly love this game still or you wouldn't be here. There is no gain from unloading your gripes about development on everyone because you aren't happy with the way things have happened, especially in your hurtful manner.
Rather than moaning about it, why not input with positive ideas and helpful comments, which will boost morale of the community and morale of the developers, to see that what they are trying to do with this game is getting at least some positive response. All this talk about these conspiracies, and dwelling in the past goings-on of the team behind the scenes isn't at all condusive to the further development of NS.
Rather than moaning about it, why not input with positive ideas and helpful comments, which will boost morale of the community and morale of the developers, to see that what they are trying to do with this game is getting at least some positive response. All this talk about these conspiracies, and dwelling in the past goings-on of the team behind the scenes isn't at all condusive to the further development of NS.
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I disagree, viper. I think that it's occasionally a good thing to point out the flaws without needing to offer solutions. I think it opens up the discussion to people who have good ideas, and allows the addressees to respond in their own way without needing to address all the points of the complainer's "solution".
Also, cutting down the morale of the people who can effectivly change things is, used judiciously, more effective than boosting their morale all the time, no matter what they do.
Understand, this the the NS forums. The people who are regulars here are the ones that love NS. Well reasoned criticism is going to be rare here, and I personally treasure it rather than trying to tell the criticiser that the dev team should be complimented all the time. I feel like you're one of the self-proclaimed "patriots" in the US right now that says people shouldn't criticize the president because we're in a time of war. They say the whole country should be behind him, right or wrong. To my mind, the better patriots are the ones who are willing to point out what the president it doing wrong, so that it can be fixed.
This is going to sound strange, but... how do you measure "community", and to which "other HL mods", exactly, are you referring?
I need to know those two things in order to knowledgeably accept or reject that claim.
NS used to have the most players of any HL mod behind CS and DOD. It's now below TFC and HLDM. Of course, it's possible that those mods grew <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
But the simpliest and most logical explaination is that people have pretty much moved on to other things, be it other games (A trend of people moving to playing games on the Source engine is evident) or RL things.
There will always be a hardcore group of the community that hangs around, a large percentage of which probably don't play the game but post on forums and chat on IRC, hoping that the community will pick up and be back to its former self. It's not like this is the death of NS, admittedly things have taken a down turn but the group of us that still have vein hopes of NS coming back to full-life will keep it going (hopefully).
With other games and other mods, the playerbase tends to drop off dramatically once the dev team announces they are stopping development and that there will be no new updates. The same sort of thing happened when the forums went down. Without a nexus (no pun intended) to gather around, the players just sort of drifted away. With no community and no real contact with the dev team, people start to feel alienated. They can only hold out hope for so long.
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Hello NS:Combat.
Personally I have stopped playing because I just could not poor so much time into a game anymore and felt no self rewards for doing so. I dont know if I am the only player that feels that they were constantly lied to for years and finally just couldnt take it anymore but that is how I feel.
If you don't like combat- dont play combat. Simple. ns_ is still alive.
I like how everyone blames combat for the reason why NSPlayer doesn't know what he's doing on an ns_ map. We were all new at one point and NS does have an incredibly steep learning curve.
Combat did not "kill" NS.
No, that's rubbish.
If you don't like combat- dont play combat. Simple. ns_ is still alive.
I like how everyone blames combat for the reason why NSPlayer doesn't know what he's doing on an ns_ map. We were all new at one point and NS does have an incredibly steep learning curve.
Combat did not "kill" NS.
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Combat eliminates the motivation for people to move to an ns_ map and learn how to play there.