pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited December 2006
Wohow..according to your aggressive tone you don't like if your ideas get rejected by someone. You can jettison balance as much as you like but I just said my opinion and told some reasons why it doesn't work for me which by the way weren't balance-reasons only. There is nothing else to add unless you maybe stop repeating yourself.
You said: Different marine start locations could have already be done in ns1, if they liked to, but they don't. Marines and Aliens are supposed to be different and alternative start-locations clearly belongs to aliens.
I say: the maps are imbalanced in nature as it is now, how do you balance ADVANTAGE?..............AND I ask who are 'they'? Those of you speak for? Obviously, you know them and 'they' have told you this........
You said: Moreover marines walking-route through the map and forward phasegates(versus backwards) or mini outposts already serve the purpose of marines doing different approaches, depending on their strategy(sp?) and the alien game.
I say: These are predisposed strats...........those that are end game strats are used time and time again, good comms really never deviate from them.........and the whole point of phase gates is to shorten travel time...........WHAT OTHER PURPOSE DO THEY SERVE?
You said: Considering that it is already a though(it's spelled tough) job to balance all 3 hives and their enviroment equally, it would be even harder to balance 3 hives and 3 possible marine starts.
I say: You only read the title, skimmed through the posts and didn't read a damn thing. So I add this(again): As far as I understand balance isn't the issue here, in fact, it greatly increases balance. Simply put...............oh the hive is here, quick lock down the hive on the other side of the map...........that's what I call imbalance and it is FAR too predictable.
Have the MS be random out of the three, but instead of leaving the other extra MS's open with a res node that's easily defendable, instead have them sealed off (with a door/airlock you cannot open, like the fake doors in many NS1 levels). Buildings would be undroppable in the sealed MS's as well. If they are accessable at all, make it via a long weld, or some other strategic method.
As for rine's finding out about the hive so quick, that can easily be solved as well. Just make it so Commanders cannot drop items (like meds or ammo packs) or buildings anywhere in a radius where a marine or existing rine structure can't 'see' (fog of war style). It might also help to make the obs start with very little energy (to prevent quick scanning) Afaik, that spoils current methods of locating hives extremely fast.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited December 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1583614:date=Dec 3 2006, 11:48 AM:name=TheOriginal10Round)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheOriginal10Round @ Dec 3 2006, 11:48 AM) [snapback]1583614[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> the maps are imbalanced in nature as it is now, how do you balance ADVANTAGE?..............AND I ask who are 'they'? Those of you speak for? Obviously, you know them and 'they' have told you this........<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course "they" haven't told me this, but you can easily assume by the following points: -Aliens and Marines are supposed to be different. -The I&S-FAQ of NS1 clearly states that multiple marine starts won't happen which is the same as aliens having multiple starts(hives). -Thus you can assume that alternating marine starts won't happen because aliens have alternating starts. I'm pretty sure, they won't throw off the concept of teams differing from each other.
Sure, some maps aren't well balanced considering hives, but you can watch mappers keep updating those maps to balance hives more and more, so balanced hives is the goal. Thus advantages getting decreased because it makes balancing harder. Advantages maybe spice up diversity in certain situations but then you could also make rfk from 1-10 res and have marines and aliens randomly started as HA or ONOS to spice things up. How much fun is that to the team, that gets the disadvantage?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> These are predisposed strats...........those that are end game strats are used time and time again, good comms really never deviate from them.........and the whole point of phase gates is to shorten travel time...........WHAT OTHER PURPOSE DO THEY SERVE?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Granted, after getting used to the maps, certain strats are solidifying, however phase gates enable more options to approach and pressure aliens by shorten travel time. Of course your idea would add more diversity but at the cost of balance which leads me to your next point: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As far as I understand balance isn't the issue here, in fact, it greatly increases balance. Simply put...............oh the hive is here, quick lock down the hive on the other side of the map...........that's what I call imbalance and it is FAR too predictable. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> (Although I agree that marines shouldn't be able to spot the start hive right from the start and that this issue decreases diversity, how is this connected to your idea of having random marine starts leading to close team starts and thus sudden battles or a time to build and expand??) Balance IS the issue and will ever be an issue because according to your logic you can just put one hive much closer to the marine start then the others, so that it will lead to a sudden battle if aliens start there. You don't need alternating marine starts to create different distances between team starts, alternating alien starts(aka hives) do the same job. If THAT would be a goal of the devs, "they" wouldn't keep balancing hives more and more with each update and trying to keep each hive's distance to the marine start the same (excluding the middle hive in some cases)
Edit: If you wonder why I relate that much to NS1 and it's gameplay and balance, read this quote of Flayra from the NS2 Interview: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think the established idea for making a successful sequel is this: 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved and 1/3 new. That sounds like a great rule of thumb to me. So we'll still be focused on strategy gameplay with Commander mode, tech trees and resources, and the sides are going to play very differently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the NEDM idea of 'wog of war' style could be nice it also reminds me about my wish to have the parts for buildings everywhere across the map either just laying down in the corner or available to pick at some supply depots ( think about small rooms/boxes with parts ) so a commanders asks you to build e.g. armoury in the location x,y,z and you bring there parts and assemble them to be a complete structure this is slightly off-topic but think, it may help with the fast hive location find outs, as commander can just mark a location to build and you actually need to take care about everything else, you can also face the order to build the rt on an existing alien rt... and you need to get there to find out, seems to never happen in ns, but who knows , anyway i like brainstorming ;d , "fog of war" would be nice and i believe easy way to stop using meds to detect hive
What if this docking system could be upgraded at the observatory and used much like a distress beacon? Each map features 2-3 docking points, placed about half way from marine start to each hive. The commander must first research communication for an "alert signal" (or such fluff) costing a set amount of resources which then allows him to select one of the docking points where the rescue ship could latch.
Such a feature would allow squads (or perhaps the entire marine team) to be "teleported" and arrive within close proximity of an infested area/hive for attack, or to secure an empty location.
The initial upgrade might allow each docking port to be used once throughout the game, thus limiting the rushing potential while providing increased mobility at key moments or during a last-resort scenario.
Such docking points would not be random and set at specific locations on the map. The way I imagine it, a small rescue ship would latch directly onto an otherwise locked door allowing squads to spill in. The process of docking the ship would take about 10 seconds, during which alarms and flashing lights signal inside the dock thus warning nearby aliens. From the marine point of view, you would be initially seated until you feel the ship collide and lock on, at which point you become mobile and rush out the opening door.
Comments
You can jettison balance as much as you like but I just said my opinion and told some reasons why it doesn't work for me which by the way weren't balance-reasons only.
There is nothing else to add unless you maybe stop repeating yourself.
You said:
Different marine start locations could have already be done in ns1, if they liked to, but they don't.
Marines and Aliens are supposed to be different and alternative start-locations clearly belongs to aliens.
I say:
the maps are imbalanced in nature as it is now, how do you balance ADVANTAGE?..............AND I ask who are 'they'? Those of you speak for? Obviously, you know them and 'they' have told you this........
You said:
Moreover marines walking-route through the map and forward phasegates(versus backwards) or mini outposts already serve the purpose of marines doing different approaches, depending on their strategy(sp?) and the alien game.
I say:
These are predisposed strats...........those that are end game strats are used time and time again, good comms really never deviate from them.........and the whole point of phase gates is to shorten travel time...........WHAT OTHER PURPOSE DO THEY SERVE?
You said:
Considering that it is already a though(it's spelled tough) job to balance all 3 hives and their enviroment equally, it would be even harder to balance 3 hives and 3 possible marine starts.
I say:
You only read the title, skimmed through the posts and didn't read a damn thing.
So I add this(again):
As far as I understand balance isn't the issue here, in fact, it greatly increases balance. Simply put...............oh the hive is here, quick lock down the hive on the other side of the map...........that's what I call imbalance and it is FAR too predictable.
Thank you for you time.
Marines can EASILY find out which hive the aliens are using in the first 10 seconds, the aliens can't where the rines are in that same amount of time.
As for rine's finding out about the hive so quick, that can easily be solved as well. Just make it so Commanders cannot drop items (like meds or ammo packs) or buildings anywhere in a radius where a marine or existing rine structure can't 'see' (fog of war style). It might also help to make the obs start with very little energy (to prevent quick scanning) Afaik, that spoils current methods of locating hives extremely fast.
the maps are imbalanced in nature as it is now, how do you balance ADVANTAGE?..............AND I ask who are 'they'? Those of you speak for? Obviously, you know them and 'they' have told you this........<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course "they" haven't told me this, but you can easily assume by the following points:
-Aliens and Marines are supposed to be different.
-The I&S-FAQ of NS1 clearly states that multiple marine starts won't happen which is the same as aliens having multiple starts(hives).
-Thus you can assume that alternating marine starts won't happen because aliens have alternating starts.
I'm pretty sure, they won't throw off the concept of teams differing from each other.
Sure, some maps aren't well balanced considering hives, but you can watch mappers keep updating those maps to balance hives more and more, so balanced hives is the goal. Thus advantages getting decreased because it makes balancing harder. Advantages maybe spice up diversity in certain situations but then you could also make rfk from 1-10 res and have marines and aliens randomly started as HA or ONOS to spice things up. How much fun is that to the team, that gets the disadvantage?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
These are predisposed strats...........those that are end game strats are used time and time again, good comms really never deviate from them.........and the whole point of phase gates is to shorten travel time...........WHAT OTHER PURPOSE DO THEY SERVE?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted, after getting used to the maps, certain strats are solidifying, however phase gates enable more options to approach and pressure aliens by shorten travel time.
Of course your idea would add more diversity but at the cost of balance which leads me to your next point:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
As far as I understand balance isn't the issue here, in fact, it greatly increases balance. Simply put...............oh the hive is here, quick lock down the hive on the other side of the map...........that's what I call imbalance and it is FAR too predictable.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Although I agree that marines shouldn't be able to spot the start hive right from the start and that this issue decreases diversity, how is this connected to your idea of having random marine starts leading to close team starts and thus sudden battles or a time to build and expand??)
Balance IS the issue and will ever be an issue because according to your logic you can just put one hive much closer to the marine start then the others, so that it will lead to a sudden battle if aliens start there.
You don't need alternating marine starts to create different distances between team starts, alternating alien starts(aka hives) do the same job.
If THAT would be a goal of the devs, "they" wouldn't keep balancing hives more and more with each update and trying to keep each hive's distance to the marine start the same (excluding the middle hive in some cases)
Edit: If you wonder why I relate that much to NS1 and it's gameplay and balance, read this quote of Flayra from the NS2 Interview:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think the established idea for making a successful sequel is this: 1/3 the same, 1/3 improved and 1/3 new. That sounds like a great rule of thumb to me. So we'll still be focused on strategy gameplay with Commander mode, tech trees and resources, and the sides are going to play very differently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is slightly off-topic but think, it may help with the fast hive location find outs, as commander can just mark a location to build and you actually need to take care about everything else, you can also face the order to build the rt on an existing alien rt... and you need to get there to find out, seems to never happen in ns, but who knows , anyway i like brainstorming ;d , "fog of war" would be nice and i believe easy way to stop using meds to detect hive
What if this docking system could be upgraded at the observatory and used much like a distress beacon? Each map features 2-3 docking points, placed about half way from marine start to each hive. The commander must first research communication for an "alert signal" (or such fluff) costing a set amount of resources which then allows him to select one of the docking points where the rescue ship could latch.
Such a feature would allow squads (or perhaps the entire marine team) to be "teleported" and arrive within close proximity of an infested area/hive for attack, or to secure an empty location.
The initial upgrade might allow each docking port to be used once throughout the game, thus limiting the rushing potential while providing increased mobility at key moments or during a last-resort scenario.
Such docking points would not be random and set at specific locations on the map. The way I imagine it, a small rescue ship would latch directly onto an otherwise locked door allowing squads to spill in. The process of docking the ship would take about 10 seconds, during which alarms and flashing lights signal inside the dock thus warning nearby aliens. From the marine point of view, you would be initially seated until you feel the ship collide and lock on, at which point you become mobile and rush out the opening door.
I'm allowed one.......................I moved and have tasted New Orleans New Years Night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!