hypothetical situation: if i were to kill someone and be convicted, i would much rather be informed that i will be leaving in [amount of time] as opposed to spending the remainder of my life in a federal "pound me in the ######" prison. there are things worse than death. prison rape is one of them. i oppose the death penalty because i think that it gives the worst of criminals the easiest way out. life in prison with no parole and a cellmate named 'bubba' is a much more ... fitting end.
There's simply no logic in paying tax dollars to imprison / rehabilitate a convicted serial killer / serial rapist when he could be annihilated in one fell swoop. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
How can someone who quotes a 4 thousand year old moral lesson on retribution continue to cite logic as a cornerstone of his argument? What exactly is your logical premise? Your statement is very vague in its logical terms, ignoring the fact that your solution would also have innocent people murdered when incarceration leaves an avenue open for appeal and subsequent vindication.
<!--quoteo(post=1590516:date=Dec 20 2006, 01:45 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 20 2006, 01:45 AM) [snapback]1590516[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There's simply no logic in paying tax dollars to imprison / rehabilitate a convicted serial killer / serial rapist when he could be annihilated in one fell swoop. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What if the serial killer doesn't want to die, and keeps appealing his sentence, costing the state precious tax dollars?
<!--quoteo(post=1590528:date=Dec 20 2006, 05:12 AM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Dec 20 2006, 05:12 AM) [snapback]1590528[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What if the serial killer doesn't want to die, and keeps appealing his sentence, costing the state precious tax dollars? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's his legal right now, isn't it?
It makes sense that we execute known sociopaths, (serial killers, war criminals, ect) because there's no argument in regards to if they are guilty or not. At the state level it doesn't make sense since it's not a matter of national policy.
You see, I of all people would enjoy watching people like Saddam Hussaien hanged. That or a firing squad (because it would be a fitting death).
I don't think anyone here wouldn't be more then willing to off Hitler.
<!--quoteo(post=1590545:date=Dec 20 2006, 05:22 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 20 2006, 05:22 AM) [snapback]1590545[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That's his legal right now, isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're evading my point. The death penalty is costly because -- surprise, surprise -- <i>most people don't want to die, and will do anything to avoid it</i>. This results in multiple appeals to their sentence that cost the state ridiculous amounts of money that could be better spent elsewhere. It's better to just do away with the whole practice and save ourselves the time, money, and trouble.
<!--quoteo(post=1590682:date=Dec 20 2006, 06:40 PM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Dec 20 2006, 06:40 PM) [snapback]1590682[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You're evading my point. The death penalty is costly because -- surprise, surprise -- <i>most people don't want to die, and will do anything to avoid it</i>. This results in multiple appeals to their sentence that cost the state ridiculous amounts of money that could be better spent elsewhere. It's better to just do away with the whole practice and save ourselves the time, money, and trouble. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My guess is it'd cost a lot more to keep him in prison.
Talking about money in the context of human life and whether or not to take it sickens me. <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->This last bit wasn't necessary. Be nice. -Rob<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I don't see the difference. We're discussing death penalty yes? I just have a different opinion on how the death penalty should be handled. Incidentally it's on those who think a death penalty is warranted to begin with.
<!--quoteo(post=1590683:date=Dec 20 2006, 04:43 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 20 2006, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1590683[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My guess is it'd cost a lot more to keep him in prison. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html" target="_blank">Your guess is wrong.</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cost of keeping a 25-year-old inmate for 50 years at present amounts to $805,000. Assuming 75 years as an average life span, the $805,000 figure would be the cost of life in prison.
...
So roughly it's costing us $2 million more to execute someone than it would cost to keep them in jail for life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's <i>per</i> inmate. Now imagine a whole <i>system</i> of this, and you <i>should</i> get a good idea of how much this costs.
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
<!--quoteo(post=1590711:date=Dec 20 2006, 08:17 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 20 2006, 08:17 PM) [snapback]1590711[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Talking about money in the context of human life and whether or not to take it sickens me. <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->This last bit wasn't necessary. Be nice. -Rob<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once they have committed repeated crimes involving loss of life they forfeit all their rights. IMO their life has no longer has value if they dedicate it to death and destruction of innocents.
<!--quoteo(post=1590753:date=Dec 20 2006, 08:40 PM:name=Private_Coleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private_Coleman @ Dec 20 2006, 08:40 PM) [snapback]1590753[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Once they have committed repeated crimes involving loss of life they forfeit all their rights. IMO their life has no longer has value if they dedicate it to death and destruction of innocents. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So execute all soldiers, then?
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
edited December 2006
<!--quoteo(post=1590761:date=Dec 20 2006, 10:51 PM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Dec 20 2006, 10:51 PM) [snapback]1590761[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So execute all soldiers, then? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soldiers are employed by the government to remove the enemy's soldiers. The soldiers that are killed in battle are aware of the risks and have decided to make that sacrifice for their country.
If they are intentionally killing innocent civilians, sure.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1590753:date=Dec 20 2006, 11:40 PM:name=Private_Coleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private_Coleman @ Dec 20 2006, 11:40 PM) [snapback]1590753[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Once they have committed repeated crimes involving loss of life they forfeit all their rights. IMO their life has no longer has value if they dedicate it to death and destruction of innocents. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And what is your infallible system for determining this?
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
As I previously mentioned in my first post, in my opinion the death penalty should only be utilized in severe cases. Prison should be mostly about rehabilitation rather than "punishing" people.
Never did I claim to have an infallible system. However if the subject in question has committed murder, rape or other higher tier crimes previously with reasonable evidence against them, and all rehabilitation has failed or has no chance in succeeding, the criminal has no further purpose and should be executed.
<!--quoteo(post=1590628:date=Dec 20 2006, 04:40 PM:name=Revlic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revlic @ Dec 20 2006, 04:40 PM) [snapback]1590628[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You see, I of all people would enjoy watching people like Saddam Hussaien hanged. That or a firing squad (because it would be a fitting death).
I don't think anyone here wouldn't be more then willing to off Hitler. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I for one would not be willing to off Hitler. IMO even he would deserve a chance to change.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1590782:date=Dec 21 2006, 01:15 AM:name=Private_Coleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private_Coleman @ Dec 21 2006, 01:15 AM) [snapback]1590782[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As I previously mentioned in my first post, in my opinion the death penalty should only be utilized in severe cases. Prison should be mostly about rehabilitation rather than "punishing" people.
Never did I claim to have an infallible system. However if the subject in question has committed murder, rape or other higher tier crimes previously with reasonable evidence against them, and all rehabilitation has failed or has no chance in succeeding, the criminal has no further purpose and should be executed. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, but why do you think they have no further purpose? Even in the case where 40 eye witnesses witness a person brutally murdering, and we are as physically certain of his guilt as we are of physical law, I still don't think we have the ability to say definitively that the person will never offer anything of value ever again. Even simply as subjects of psychological study violent criminals would provide value, especially since those statistics show that it is more expensive to kill them than to keep them in prison.
<!--quoteo(post=1590749:date=Dec 20 2006, 10:26 PM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Dec 20 2006, 10:26 PM) [snapback]1590749[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <a href="http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html" target="_blank">Your guess is wrong.</a> That's <i>per</i> inmate. Now imagine a whole <i>system</i> of this, and you <i>should</i> get a good idea of how much this costs. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, so I guessed wrong. I still feel the extra money spent is worth it, especially if the criminal cannot be rehabilitated or has himself commited a murder.
Private_ColemanPhD in Video GamesJoin Date: 2002-11-07Member: 7510Members
<!--quoteo(post=1590850:date=Dec 21 2006, 05:32 AM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Dec 21 2006, 05:32 AM) [snapback]1590850[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Fair enough, but why do you think they have no further purpose? Even in the case where 40 eye witnesses witness a person brutally murdering, and we are as physically certain of his guilt as we are of physical law, I still don't think we have the ability to say definitively that the person will never offer anything of value ever again. Even simply as subjects of psychological study violent criminals would provide value, especially since those statistics show that it is more expensive to kill them than to keep them in prison. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is something valuable you can produce from being a repeated murderer/rapist inside a prison cell consuming valuable meals and breathing valuable air, when hundreds die every day from lack of acceptable quality food and water?
The idea is death to REPEAT offenders. Study can be saved for those who have a hope of being rehabilitated. Psychological tests can also be conducted before execution. Yes, killing people is always not nice. Maybe through research we can somehow learn something so that the number of those put to death can be reduced, or the rehabilitation process can become more effective. Until then keep on truckin'.
Also the quotes from various books presented don't really make that much of an argument. Give me something like a table showing where percentages of money goes in these sorts of things then we'll talk. It costs me nothing to stab someone in the face, apart from maybe sharpening the knife every now and then. The only way the money can be drained away from the death penalty is constant appeals. This is not a problem with the death penalty itself but the legal system.
<!--quoteo(post=1590860:date=Dec 21 2006, 03:59 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 21 2006, 03:59 AM) [snapback]1590860[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ok, so I guessed wrong. I still feel the extra money spent is worth it, especially if the criminal cannot be rehabilitated or has himself commited a murder. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not worth it because it's money that could be better spent doing things that <i>don't</i> involve killing people, like funding programs for rehabilitation, or building new, larger prisons to help with the overcrowding problem we've got going right now, for example.
<!--quoteo(post=1590866:date=Dec 21 2006, 06:19 AM:name=Private_Coleman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Private_Coleman @ Dec 21 2006, 06:19 AM) [snapback]1590866[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The only way the money can be drained away from the death penalty is constant appeals. This is not a problem with the death penalty itself but the legal system. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point Private Coleman, I overlooked that.
Take note Renegade. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
what message does a government that justifies killing people as a punishment give its citizens? responding to violence with violence creates more violence (you dont need surveys and statistics to prove this. just go out on a friday night and pick a fight with someone).
another interesting message that a government can send out is this: we'll rather kill these people than keep them alive even though it costs us many times more to kill them. irresponsible and immoral "meta-laws" such as this contribute to aggressive behaviour and violence between individuals (except that theyre not doing anything wrong according to the meta-law set by the government).
theres probably plenty of factors that make the united states the most violent country in the world, but i'm pretty sure that legalized, government-controlled murder is one of them. i wont bother to dig up any statistics so ill just toss this next idea in the air: you see, europians used to have a death penalty as well way back. and there were heaps of convicts. where did the original australians come from? english prisons. that all has changed now, but for some reason some american states still linger in the past. amazing to see that after 300 years the puritanist attitude that first defined america is still alive.
ps: on soldiers: no offense, but while the iraq campaign is probably dangerous and stressing for soldiers of the coalition, it is nowhere near as stressing as the second world war or the finnish-soviet winter war was. a generation was lost, and not only as casualties: the men that returned were changed for the rest of their lives. they became anti-social and aggressive, qualities that fit the description of a sociopath.
<!--quoteo(post=1590868:date=Dec 21 2006, 03:33 AM:name=Renegade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renegade @ Dec 21 2006, 03:33 AM) [snapback]1590868[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's not worth it because it's money that could be better spent doing things that <i>don't</i> involve killing people, like funding programs for rehabilitation, or building new, larger prisons to help with the overcrowding problem we've got going right now, for example. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the guy is dead hes not exactly crowding a prison now is he?
<!--quoteo(post=1590869:date=Dec 21 2006, 04:34 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 21 2006, 04:34 AM) [snapback]1590869[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Good point Private Coleman, I overlooked that.
Take note Renegade. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, what, outlaw appeals for those sentenced to death? That's not in <i>any</i> way what I would call "fair" or "just".
<!--quoteo(post=1590872:date=Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM:name=Chrono)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrono @ Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM) [snapback]1590872[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> if the guy is dead hes not exactly crowding a prison now is he? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please tell me you're not being serious.
<!--quoteo(post=1590871:date=Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM) [snapback]1590871[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ps: on soldiers: no offense, but while the iraq campaign is probably dangerous and stressing for soldiers of the coalition, it is nowhere near as stressing as the second world war or the finnish-soviet winter war was. a generation was lost, and not only as casualties: the men that returned were changed for the rest of their lives. they became anti-social and aggressive, qualities that fit the description of a sociopath. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did they have to contend with suicide bombers, civilian combatants, or child soldiers? Because we had to, and it was pretty ###### stressful, let me tell you.
Comments
if i were to kill someone and be convicted, i would much rather be informed that i will be leaving in [amount of time] as opposed to spending the remainder of my life in a federal "pound me in the ######" prison.
there are things worse than death. prison rape is one of them. i oppose the death penalty because i think that it gives the worst of criminals the easiest way out. life in prison with no parole and a cellmate named 'bubba' is a much more ... fitting end.
There's simply no logic in paying tax dollars to imprison / rehabilitate a convicted serial killer / serial rapist when he could be annihilated in one fell swoop. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if the serial killer doesn't want to die, and keeps appealing his sentence, costing the state precious tax dollars?
What if the serial killer doesn't want to die, and keeps appealing his sentence, costing the state precious tax dollars?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's his legal right now, isn't it?
You see, I of all people would enjoy watching people like Saddam Hussaien hanged. That or a firing squad (because it would be a fitting death).
I don't think anyone here wouldn't be more then willing to off Hitler.
That's his legal right now, isn't it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're evading my point. The death penalty is costly because -- surprise, surprise -- <i>most people don't want to die, and will do anything to avoid it</i>. This results in multiple appeals to their sentence that cost the state ridiculous amounts of money that could be better spent elsewhere. It's better to just do away with the whole practice and save ourselves the time, money, and trouble.
You're evading my point. The death penalty is costly because -- surprise, surprise -- <i>most people don't want to die, and will do anything to avoid it</i>. This results in multiple appeals to their sentence that cost the state ridiculous amounts of money that could be better spent elsewhere. It's better to just do away with the whole practice and save ourselves the time, money, and trouble.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My guess is it'd cost a lot more to keep him in prison.
My guess is it'd cost a lot more to keep him in prison.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html" target="_blank">Your guess is wrong.</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The cost of keeping a 25-year-old inmate for 50 years at present amounts to $805,000. Assuming 75 years as an average life span, the $805,000 figure would be the cost of life in prison.
...
So roughly it's costing us $2 million more to execute someone than it would cost to keep them in jail for life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's <i>per</i> inmate. Now imagine a whole <i>system</i> of this, and you <i>should</i> get a good idea of how much this costs.
Talking about money in the context of human life and whether or not to take it sickens me. <!--coloro:yellow--><span style="color:yellow"><!--/coloro-->This last bit wasn't necessary. Be nice. -Rob<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once they have committed repeated crimes involving loss of life they forfeit all their rights. IMO their life has no longer has value if they dedicate it to death and destruction of innocents.
Once they have committed repeated crimes involving loss of life they forfeit all their rights. IMO their life has no longer has value if they dedicate it to death and destruction of innocents.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So execute all soldiers, then?
So execute all soldiers, then?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soldiers are employed by the government to remove the enemy's soldiers. The soldiers that are killed in battle are aware of the risks and have decided to make that sacrifice for their country.
If they are intentionally killing innocent civilians, sure.
Once they have committed repeated crimes involving loss of life they forfeit all their rights. IMO their life has no longer has value if they dedicate it to death and destruction of innocents.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what is your infallible system for determining this?
Never did I claim to have an infallible system. However if the subject in question has committed murder, rape or other higher tier crimes previously with reasonable evidence against them, and all rehabilitation has failed or has no chance in succeeding, the criminal has no further purpose and should be executed.
You see, I of all people would enjoy watching people like Saddam Hussaien hanged. That or a firing squad (because it would be a fitting death).
I don't think anyone here wouldn't be more then willing to off Hitler.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I for one would not be willing to off Hitler. IMO even he would deserve a chance to change.
As I previously mentioned in my first post, in my opinion the death penalty should only be utilized in severe cases. Prison should be mostly about rehabilitation rather than "punishing" people.
Never did I claim to have an infallible system. However if the subject in question has committed murder, rape or other higher tier crimes previously with reasonable evidence against them, and all rehabilitation has failed or has no chance in succeeding, the criminal has no further purpose and should be executed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but why do you think they have no further purpose? Even in the case where 40 eye witnesses witness a person brutally murdering, and we are as physically certain of his guilt as we are of physical law, I still don't think we have the ability to say definitively that the person will never offer anything of value ever again. Even simply as subjects of psychological study violent criminals would provide value, especially since those statistics show that it is more expensive to kill them than to keep them in prison.
<a href="http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html" target="_blank">Your guess is wrong.</a>
That's <i>per</i> inmate. Now imagine a whole <i>system</i> of this, and you <i>should</i> get a good idea of how much this costs.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so I guessed wrong. I still feel the extra money spent is worth it, especially if the criminal cannot be rehabilitated or has himself commited a murder.
Fair enough, but why do you think they have no further purpose? Even in the case where 40 eye witnesses witness a person brutally murdering, and we are as physically certain of his guilt as we are of physical law, I still don't think we have the ability to say definitively that the person will never offer anything of value ever again. Even simply as subjects of psychological study violent criminals would provide value, especially since those statistics show that it is more expensive to kill them than to keep them in prison.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is something valuable you can produce from being a repeated murderer/rapist inside a prison cell consuming valuable meals and breathing valuable air, when hundreds die every day from lack of acceptable quality food and water?
The idea is death to REPEAT offenders. Study can be saved for those who have a hope of being rehabilitated. Psychological tests can also be conducted before execution. Yes, killing people is always not nice. Maybe through research we can somehow learn something so that the number of those put to death can be reduced, or the rehabilitation process can become more effective. Until then keep on truckin'.
Also the quotes from various books presented don't really make that much of an argument. Give me something like a table showing where percentages of money goes in these sorts of things then we'll talk. It costs me nothing to stab someone in the face, apart from maybe sharpening the knife every now and then. The only way the money can be drained away from the death penalty is constant appeals. This is not a problem with the death penalty itself but the legal system.
Ok, so I guessed wrong. I still feel the extra money spent is worth it, especially if the criminal cannot be rehabilitated or has himself commited a murder.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not worth it because it's money that could be better spent doing things that <i>don't</i> involve killing people, like funding programs for rehabilitation, or building new, larger prisons to help with the overcrowding problem we've got going right now, for example.
The only way the money can be drained away from the death penalty is constant appeals. This is not a problem with the death penalty itself but the legal system.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point Private Coleman, I overlooked that.
Take note Renegade. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
another interesting message that a government can send out is this: we'll rather kill these people than keep them alive even though it costs us many times more to kill them. irresponsible and immoral "meta-laws" such as this contribute to aggressive behaviour and violence between individuals (except that theyre not doing anything wrong according to the meta-law set by the government).
theres probably plenty of factors that make the united states the most violent country in the world, but i'm pretty sure that legalized, government-controlled murder is one of them. i wont bother to dig up any statistics so ill just toss this next idea in the air: you see, europians used to have a death penalty as well way back. and there were heaps of convicts. where did the original australians come from? english prisons. that all has changed now, but for some reason some american states still linger in the past. amazing to see that after 300 years the puritanist attitude that first defined america is still alive.
ps: on soldiers: no offense, but while the iraq campaign is probably dangerous and stressing for soldiers of the coalition, it is nowhere near as stressing as the second world war or the finnish-soviet winter war was. a generation was lost, and not only as casualties: the men that returned were changed for the rest of their lives. they became anti-social and aggressive, qualities that fit the description of a sociopath.
It's not worth it because it's money that could be better spent doing things that <i>don't</i> involve killing people, like funding programs for rehabilitation, or building new, larger prisons to help with the overcrowding problem we've got going right now, for example.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if the guy is dead hes not exactly crowding a prison now is he?
Good point Private Coleman, I overlooked that.
Take note Renegade. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, what, outlaw appeals for those sentenced to death? That's not in <i>any</i> way what I would call "fair" or "just".
<!--quoteo(post=1590872:date=Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM:name=Chrono)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrono @ Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM) [snapback]1590872[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
if the guy is dead hes not exactly crowding a prison now is he?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please tell me you're not being serious.
<!--quoteo(post=1590871:date=Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Dec 21 2006, 04:35 AM) [snapback]1590871[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
ps: on soldiers: no offense, but while the iraq campaign is probably dangerous and stressing for soldiers of the coalition, it is nowhere near as stressing as the second world war or the finnish-soviet winter war was. a generation was lost, and not only as casualties: the men that returned were changed for the rest of their lives. they became anti-social and aggressive, qualities that fit the description of a sociopath.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did they have to contend with suicide bombers, civilian combatants, or child soldiers? Because we had to, and it was pretty ###### stressful, let me tell you.