just found a universal problem with ns
MrBananaMan
Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members
Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42562Members
<div class="IPBDescription">well maybe not a problem exactly</div>ns maps.
<!--fonto:Arial Black--><span style="font-family:Arial Black"><!--/fonto-->marines have 1 person who needs to know what the plan is and what is going on for success to be achieved (commander), and therefore a higher chance of winning the round.
the aliens need every single person on the same page so the plan is followed through instead of each person doing his own thing. <!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
<!--fonto:Verdana--><span style="font-family:Verdana"><!--/fonto-->ever seen 6 gorges building chambers and 1 lerk flying around trying to kill marines? i just did. it made me realize the differences in teams and how it is harder for the alien team to achieve a successful structure, chamber wise and life form wise.
now you could say being in a clan, and during a clan match you do know what the structure of your alien team will be, and yes that is fine and understandable. but take into consideration the normal pub where no one knows each other and people usually dont talk to each other, and are even less likely to listen to each other. this means that there is a lower inherent chance of the alien team being successful in their structure and therefore lowering their chance to win.<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
<b>
basically my theory is</b> that there is an inherent affect that marines will be more successful then aliens in a normal pub game.
<b>
my backup for this is:</b>
- marines only need 1 competent person to make a successful plan/strcuture, and he also needs to be the commander. he has the whole say, only he can build and decide where res goes.
-the aliens however, need close to everyone to be competent AND communicate with each other because they all have a say in what is being built and which alien is gestating into what. basically, where the res is going.
-1 marine gets all the res, makes his plan how he wants it. if he is competent, all goes well, if not, he gets kicked and someone else takes over, or marines may lose depending on the aliens structure.
-aliens get the whole res divided up equally, one guy messes up, screws up the whole team. the more people that mess up, the more it screws up the team. <b>the more people that are on the alien team, the higher the chance that they will fail because their is a higher chance that each person is incompetent than competent (communicating with team and listening). not saying its not possible, clans are usually fully competent. the more people on a marine team however, does not change their chance of winning because they still rely on only 1 person to do well.</b>
thanks, my thoughts not yours.
<!--fonto:Arial Black--><span style="font-family:Arial Black"><!--/fonto-->marines have 1 person who needs to know what the plan is and what is going on for success to be achieved (commander), and therefore a higher chance of winning the round.
the aliens need every single person on the same page so the plan is followed through instead of each person doing his own thing. <!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
<!--fonto:Verdana--><span style="font-family:Verdana"><!--/fonto-->ever seen 6 gorges building chambers and 1 lerk flying around trying to kill marines? i just did. it made me realize the differences in teams and how it is harder for the alien team to achieve a successful structure, chamber wise and life form wise.
now you could say being in a clan, and during a clan match you do know what the structure of your alien team will be, and yes that is fine and understandable. but take into consideration the normal pub where no one knows each other and people usually dont talk to each other, and are even less likely to listen to each other. this means that there is a lower inherent chance of the alien team being successful in their structure and therefore lowering their chance to win.<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc-->
<b>
basically my theory is</b> that there is an inherent affect that marines will be more successful then aliens in a normal pub game.
<b>
my backup for this is:</b>
- marines only need 1 competent person to make a successful plan/strcuture, and he also needs to be the commander. he has the whole say, only he can build and decide where res goes.
-the aliens however, need close to everyone to be competent AND communicate with each other because they all have a say in what is being built and which alien is gestating into what. basically, where the res is going.
-1 marine gets all the res, makes his plan how he wants it. if he is competent, all goes well, if not, he gets kicked and someone else takes over, or marines may lose depending on the aliens structure.
-aliens get the whole res divided up equally, one guy messes up, screws up the whole team. the more people that mess up, the more it screws up the team. <b>the more people that are on the alien team, the higher the chance that they will fail because their is a higher chance that each person is incompetent than competent (communicating with team and listening). not saying its not possible, clans are usually fully competent. the more people on a marine team however, does not change their chance of winning because they still rely on only 1 person to do well.</b>
thanks, my thoughts not yours.
Comments
"MC first!"
"PG at Bio!"
"Need a Fade!"
Really simple things, but if someone doesn't take care of saying the obvious, it will quickly lead in to the demise of the Kharaa.
Hardcore Kharaa players easily recognize what their teammates are up to, adapting and acting on the situation when needed. In this lies the strength of the Kharaa. While the humans need a commander to give out orders, the Kharaa can coordinate much more rapidly than humans.
With a good team, all you need to do is shout "Furnace PG!" and BAM, you have 3 Skulks, a Fade and an Onos tearing everything to shreds.
"ever see 6 gorgres building chamebrs while there is 2 lerk flying aroudn trying to kill/defend".
as for hardcore kharaa players making their team coordinate faster than marines, i dont understand that. following the rules you stated, only hardcore kharaa would know whats goign on, which is a small percent of players, which is bad. the second part i wonder about is how does that make the kharaa faster at coordinating? knowing a res tower is under attack does not coordinate a team. and besides all of that, marines have one guy that coordinates everyone almost instantly.
so the hive is under attack, and everyone jumps to the hivee. coordinated? no. if there was a plan or structure to what everyoen is supposed to be doing, you could come up witt higns like "attack their base to make them beacon and clear out the pg when that happens". but when do you ever hear that in a pub? its hard to coordinate, thats why.
as for marines, well, the commander can point out where marines should go, say if their base is under attack. whether peopel follow them is another story.
so the hive is under attack, and everyone jumps to the hivee. coordinated?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the answer is more automated coordination like that for the aliens.
Basically youre running into the real problem: PEOPLE, people who do nothing, say nothing might aswell be nothing. No amount of automated coordination in the universe will stop them being like that, maybe you should stand up to the plate and try and promote teamwork instead of crying for someone else to do it for you.
aliens MUST communicate with each other to understand what the structure is going to bbe because they all have a say. why? because they all have to spend the resources, not relying one person to decide.
hope this makes sense,i feel that i am not conveying my message as well as i could.
hmm try and imagine this. its 15 minutes into the game with no communication allowed. you look at the marine team and they will probably have all the structures they need along with weapons and armors, because they only rely on one person for where their res is going. if you look at the alien team however, you may not see a second hive, any chambers or res towers, or possibly 6 gorges because they cannot communicate who is doing what.
communication. marine team doesnt need it as much. alien team has to work harder at it, and some people arent good at it. it stacks the teams. it gives one team a better base for winning than the other.
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<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hmm try and imagine this. its 15 minutes into the game with no communication allowed. you look at the marine team and they will probably have all the structures they need along with weapons and armors, because they only rely on one person for where their res is going. if you look at the alien team however, you may not see a second hive, any chambers or res towers, or possibly 6 gorges because they cannot communicate who is doing what.
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This isn't a universal problem. These scenarios seem highly dependent on what servers\communities you like to play with, not all are like that. See sig.
Although basic NS game mechanics does promote more actual teamwork than most other FPSs I can think of.
That might not be a very good example, but my point is that there are many things that change in the game with changing skill levels, so this single point isn't enough to say that there is a problem.
In 3.2 when Res Towers come under attack, they blink red on the map.
What if only Aliens got this? And not Marines?
One stand up out there alone, larking for there lover, if they keep it up everntly some other bird will be far enough away they will do there call and see if its similar or if they get a responce back, once this happens a snow ball effect occers, as said order said lovers call begins to spread amoung not ony birds in the vercinity but also birds in the vercinity of birds in the lovers vercinity i supose this could be the gradual after effect once vercinity one has completed there cycle
in other words if you keep consistant comunication up even if no ones listening, evently you will get or find otheres willing to even at least verboly agknowlege your larcking if you will, from this you and the few you find can if you sucesffull coawrdinate a bit, understand some form of plan and put it in motion, you wil lcreate a snow ball effect, and at least you will end up with a lot of intreded lovers woundering if thats some one calling for them, if it remotely does sound any thing like a plan they would be down with you will know ether by them saying verbaly, or by there in game body language, if its by in game body language after a few minutes ask them to do something a little crazy as inisiation see if they well and truely are working wit ya's
you will soon see who in your communication net you need to do a little more work on as a team
e.e order a fade almost to his death by asking him to attack obst untill it is dead even if they becon
if he or any one else questions it, you know where you gotta do soem streanghting in the kharaa ranks and relaships department
this chould simplie be running around as a gorgie with them healing them or helping them build, it could mean preping new area;s and scouting with scent for that focus fade as a paraing sulk or a gasing lurk
but reember it is a snow ball effect, and its also usaly a long standing merit effect, you will soon see who likes aliens the regulars you wil lsee that if you get a few other good aliens on said kharaa side they will join to, if the majority are getting on coms puting in there words even pro rines and or any one else will become intreaged and prahaps even share there res.
This is one of the reasons why aliens are/were overpowered in competive NS (or seen as underpowered on pubs), its becuase generally everything gets done that needs to get done. When aliens lose a game because no one built a hive till 12 mins the marines didn't beat them, the aliens shot themselves in the foot.
Aliens have a harder time in 3.2 and if they don't use and mix all available lifeforms, they'll loose to a marine team with the same average skill.
Firstly, this isn't wrong at all, but the game has to force the alien players more to choose the proper, needed lifeforms, like giving the first alien evolving to a lifeform which isn't on the field a 5 res discount (bad example).
Too many gorges or no gorges on the field or no available lerk at all hurts the (uncoordinated) alien gameplay.
On the opposite side the comm hasn't that much options to mix his troups and he moreover decides on his own.
you wish aA <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
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wat?
marines have 1 person who needs to know what the plan is and what is going on for success to be achieved (commander), and therefore a higher chance of winning the round.
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this is not true
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
the aliens need every single person on the same page so the plan is followed through instead of each person doing his own thing.
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neither is this. what are you trying to tell us? that you dont know a thing about ns?
<!--quoteo(post=1591861:date=Dec 24 2006, 02:45 AM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Dec 24 2006, 02:45 AM) [snapback]1591861[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
the thing with comunication is its like birds calling for there mate
One stand up out there alone, larking for there lover, if they keep it up everntly some other bird will be far enough away they will do there call and see if its similar or if they get a responce back, once this happens a snow ball effect occers, as said order said lovers call begins to spread amoung not ony birds in the vercinity but also birds in the vercinity of birds in the lovers vercinity i supose this could be the gradual after effect once vercinity one has completed there cycle
in other words if you keep consistant comunication up even if no ones listening, evently you will get or find otheres willing to even at least verboly agknowlege your larcking if you will, from this you and the few you find can if you sucesffull coawrdinate a bit, understand some form of plan and put it in motion, you wil lcreate a snow ball effect, and at least you will end up with a lot of intreded lovers woundering if thats some one calling for them, if it remotely does sound any thing like a plan they would be down with you will know ether by them saying verbaly, or by there in game body language, if its by in game body language after a few minutes ask them to do something a little crazy as inisiation see if they well and truely are working wit ya's
you will soon see who in your communication net you need to do a little more work on as a team
e.e order a fade almost to his death by asking him to attack obst untill it is dead even if they becon
if he or any one else questions it, you know where you gotta do soem streanghting in the kharaa ranks and relaships department
this chould simplie be running around as a gorgie with them healing them or helping them build, it could mean preping new area;s and scouting with scent for that focus fade as a paraing sulk or a gasing lurk
but reember it is a snow ball effect, and its also usaly a long standing merit effect, you will soon see who likes aliens the regulars you wil lsee that if you get a few other good aliens on said kharaa side they will join to, if the majority are getting on coms puting in there words even pro rines and or any one else will become intreaged and prahaps even share there res.
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good analogy
or maybe i cannot get my true message across well enough, or maybe people dont have a certain understanding that i do and are seeing a different page as we talk about why the pages arent matching up.
sometimes i wonder if im way smarter or way stupider than people.
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if you have to ask that, then...
or maybe i cannot get my true message across well enough, or maybe people dont have a certain understanding that i do and are seeing a different page as we talk about why the pages arent matching up.
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you wish. your "message" came across quite well, and the <u>message</u> (that you don't know a thing about ns) was also represented to a satisfying degree. thank you for this blast of information, i'm eager to hear your next theory on the fundamental flaws of ns based on pub experiences.
I also think that it has no bearing on who wins more or not.
I think a lot of things. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
1 marine will slaughter legions of skulks . Skulks are only good for ambushes and if you can only do that you cannot gain ground.
IMO there needs to be some sort of upgrade system for skulks so they remain relevant the whole game, and not just at the begining and at hive 3.
I understand the biggest appeal of NS is the vast differences in gameplay between the races, but if one team needs to pour enormous numbers to overwhelm a few players on the other side, there is an inherent flaw there, especially since the team who needs less men have instant teleportation.
After years of playing NS I keep coming back, so there is a lot of fun to be had, but every time I dread being a skulk. It's the worst part of NS. It's just no fun. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Going sort of on topic...
Basically, marines have a tiered class system that aliens don't. Sort of "Democracy vs Communism". Marines have a single leader. For all intents and purposes, the commander, he's removed from the battles. His focus is on the big picture all the time. He isn't aiming and hopping around. The grunts have someone to tell them what to do if they don't know what to do. Someone who "seemingly" is in control, and knows what's happening everywhere. A marine can be a mindless grunt, knowing nothing more than the basic plan, and how to kill things. His awareness is of the immediate area around him. He doesn't have to be aware of the upgrade situation, or what's happening on the other side of the map. He can focus on small scale and ignore most of the big picture. You can argue how this is all false, but then you'd be missing the point. (There is a grey area counter-example for any observation... including this one. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />)
Aliens have no single being to look to when they don't know what to do or where to go. They need to excercise judgement based on what everyone is telling them and their own experience. They need to be aware of the full scale of the war, not simply their own battles. Just tonight I had one alien get angry at me because I dropped a third mc when we got our second hive back, instead of getting dcs. Whether he was right or wrong, doesn't matter now. It was in the heat of battle, I'm trying to heal a hive being sieged, and our other hive lost a chamber. What's going on in that hive? Is a marine killing all our structures? Should I get backups? Oh crap, a jet pack is shooting me I better drop something before I die. I don't have time to type out what I'm thinking.
This isn't a complaint or anything, it's an observation of what makes this game assymetrical. What bananaman has just found, is something that few have conciously spent time thinking about.
I don't have time to type out what I'm thinking.
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This thread, and this quote are, incidentally, great support for the "YOU NEED A MIC FOR NS!" argument. (BTW, back in the 1.x days, it was pretty much accepted that you did need a mic to play NS properly, and almost every player had one!)