i only read through half of the posts that were already made, and im sure im going to read the others after i post about my observations.
1.) Onos to weak: well, it has been said often enough now i think: onos dies too fast now that hive dependant armor has been reduced. other lifeforms can change their playingstyle accordingly, but onos, beeing the bulletsucker most of the times, already played hit-and-run before 3.2 was out
the best solution would be to give it more hp, this would also fix the "remaining armor when onos is dead with cara"-issue
2.)the new changes make it far more important that marine-restowers are attacked and destroyed this puts more pressure on the aliens. additionally with the changed hitboxes, finishing eating a rt is hard, because any marine is likely to snipe you away, where earlier it would be possible to find some cover
you should seriously consider lowering the hp of marine rts, as it would result in 2 things<ol type='1'><li>balancing the new hitboxes: chances of finishing an rt should stay approximately even</li><li>rt munching <b>IS NOT FUN</b>. to be honest, concepts in games that are just not fun are somehow wrong!!! im playing a game/shooter/etc, i dont want to look at the model of a rt and hold mousebutton 1 for 2 minutes until the rt is down >_ > lowering the rt hp might not solve the problem, but it might help make it more bearable</li></ol>
I like a lot of the stuff in the patch, but the game seems significantly marine biased.
Have you tried giving fade back the old blink (or even just a toggle to use or not use it, while keeping the +movement functionality either way) to counter turtling, during playtesting? You've completely changed its role in regard to any team that can aim.
Overall I like some thing that happened in 3.2 and dislike other.
The good: -The movement Key. -Hive teleport -Stronger Dcs. (They are very good now, worth the res they cost)
The Bad:
Loss of FF affecting hives. We need this back, it to hard to expect the gorge to be healing lifeforms, and using the hive, and most hive to use them puts you in a big open spot, or it too hard to get to do so fast.
Reduction in fade speed: Very bad, It makes fading much harder, and made me go back to playing 3.1.
Onos: It even weaker now, It something that i can almost solo, An onos for 75 res should be something that takes a team effort to kill, not some Rambo that has a jp. It might be better priced at 40 res, as they are still weaker then fades. When i thought of an onos, I thought of something that 4 marines are all shooting HMGS, wearing HA and JPs, and they barely live, maybe even 1 or 2 of them die. Not something that can only kill a marine if he is by him self and lacking a jp. The new charge is nice, but it feels like it should be replaced with something more fitting to an onos, and make it an ability that the onos always has, so that it can do something at less the 2 hives.
SC is weak vs the second hive fight. DCs are now worthwhile in that second fight, they can keep the hive up. Mcs allow for rapid gorgy healing and mass hits and runs. SCs, let you do what, If the marines have an obs next to the TF ( and I don't know of any commander worth his res, who would not put one there in a siege vs SC), no invisibly, SOF, useless, they re all right out side, focus, you are too slow to survive so, worthless.
EDIT:
After playing several games of Beta 1 last night, I saw that the aliens really need something that can bust marines that are holding ground. After a defeat at hive 2, a loss of marines in every attempt to advance, we pushed for the third hive, and dug in there. With about 4 res nodes, (2 stayed up all the time, the others where under constant attack) we slowed teched up, and got everyone, but 2, in heavys with HMG (I had a Gl for clearing structures . The two where jet packs, both HMG, dropped to the best players to clear onos. After full tech. we slowly moved on the second hive, clearing ocs, and dcs, and killing lifeforms. Despite a 3 onos and other lifeforms, hive drop rush,(well we where teching up).
This showed me that the aliens need something to boost hive 2 game, as they could not take the hive, despite teamwork.(this was on TGNS 3.2 Beta 1)
Re: the gorge hive spit issue, it really shouldn't be a problem, since spit already functions as +use on switches etc., so its not really anything new. It doesn't have to be "attacking" the hive, just have it trigger +use.
How about, instead of freely getting the feature where structures appear on the minimap to marines when they are under attack. You make it so that you must research it in the observatory.
Dont decrease the lerks speed, if they want to easily kill the lerk all they need to do is get a shotgun or two.
The onos is fine. The extra armor is for when the onos regens it's hp.
Marine rts should have their hp decreased. If it's decreased I'd then suggest create a research upgrade that increases the hp.
Having gorge spit trigger +use on the hive would be helpfull. And this would solve the problem of spit not working on pub servers with ff off. Also I havent tried it, but charge - devour might be very difficult now, due to the knockback of charge. Which would take away the charge devour hide of heavies from larger trains. The loss of that ability and the loss of armor, might just make the onos not worth the 75 res.
Lerks: Are fine. No more ZOMGWTHBBQ minifades. And trust me, adrenaline lerks are very powerful. You just have to never, ever go in when a marine is looking at you. That's no problem, keep marines off guard by constantly sporing and forcing them to move. Keep lerks as is. I will be very sad if they get changed back just because some pro has to, I dunno, actually use the lerk as a support role.
Onos really is an esoteric support class now. There's no reason to onos other than to counter heavies. A fade is much more effective vs basically everything else.
SC first requires serious teamwork to win, you basically have to lock marines in MS with 1-2 nodes within the first four minutes of the game, or else marines win.
DC first makes for indestructible fades. A dc nest in a vent somewhere in the middle of the map makes it really easy for aliens to control the map. The only reason dc first won't take over is because it requires slightly more teamwork than MC first, and is not much more powerful.
The only reason MC first is staying dominant, is that it requires virtually no strategy to use. Plunk three down in a hive or a hive vent, and you're done. I'm not saying it's overpowered, though.
I think MT works even if you press shift, which is highly irritating.
+movement is highly awesome.
Fades are fine, you can still own it up, you just have to be a little more careful.
Skulk is fine, a little weak around the 5-6 minute mark, before the hive goes up but after marines have got A1 and W1 or 2, but that should be when the early fade is raping rines anyway. Once the second hive goes up they become effective again.
DC's can totally own sieges now, as a matter of fact if someone goes around dropping 5-6 dcs in the hive, hives become virtually invincible. Maybe cap DC healing rates on structures?
The new rt hitboxes are awesome.
People are going around complaining about weak alien endgame, but honestly, if devs fixed that, then they would whine about slippery slope. In the end, this is Natural Selection. Adapt or die.
This version is, IMHO, a lot more fun than 3.1. Keep it up, devs!
I think that currently MT is too cheap. I believe that MT should be Hive 2 counter, but now, commanders research MT quickly to counter SC, thus making good skulk ambushes much harder.
Sollution suggestion: Raise MT cost by 150-200%, drop Observatory and scan cost. This way commander can still build Observatories into good positions, but it would still allow individual skulks to ambush marines which are moving in unsecured areas. Currenlty Observatories are rarely built into the field, because MT is too good.
<!--quoteo(post=1593848:date=Jan 1 2007, 09:40 PM:name=Garo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Garo @ Jan 1 2007, 09:40 PM) [snapback]1593848[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think that currently MT is too cheap. I believe that MT should be Hive 2 counter, but now, commanders research MT quickly to counter SC, thus making good skulk ambushes much harder.
Sollution suggestion: Raise MT cost by 150-200%, drop Observatory and scan cost. This way commander can still build Observatories into good positions, but it would still allow individual skulks to ambush marines which are moving in unsecured areas. Currenlty Observatories are rarely built into the field, because MT is too good.
- Garo <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would really make sieges way too easy.
Anyways, wouldn't the simplier solution just be to make Skulks immune to MT. -OR- Make Cloaking & Silence both block MT regardless what speed you're moving at.
I think marines are overpowerd in the lategame. To my mind, it would be the best, to give aliens more armor with the third hive (maybe with the second too). Because a marine with lvl3-upgrades and hmg kills a fade too easily/fast.
But all in all, 3.2 is a great version. I'm looking forward to the next beta-version!
I've waited a while to put in my two cents, because I kept seeing the balance go back and forth as people began to get used to how things play best in this beta. Now that things usually go the same ways, here's my opinion:
Motion tracking has always been somewhat overpowered. Raising the cost or time to research won't make much difference. The biggest difference can be made in allowing silence to render aliens immune to motion tracking, thus providing an effective counter to MT. I always assumed MT was based off of sound/vibrations, so it also makes sense.
Jet packs are overly effective for their cost. I rarely see HA used anymore despite the fact it is still very effective. Comms tend to go with JP because they can support a lot more people with the same amount of res. Raising the cost per jetpack, or making a more reliable counter, are the only options I see to affect this issue.
At first I thought that fades were far to weak, with both reduced acceleration and lack of Hive 2/3 armor. I've gotten used to them now and they seem quite powerful, but the nerfed acceleration can really be a killer, even for the most skilled fades, if a wall or small rise in the floor is hit. Without altering the normal movement, maybe allowing a wall to be blinked off of for a short boost in acceleration would remedy this problem.
The onos is the biggest problem I've seen so far. At level 3 damage, a single clip from an HMG can usually kill an onos, and just two marines can easily down one at that point. When marines can no longer escape base, they naturally begin to turtle and can take down oni far too quickly. The obvious problem of remaining armor when an onos has carapace needs adjusted too. I'd suggest permitting the onos to have the effects of hive armor. Without it, there is such a massive change in its health that the weaknesses it possesses make it useless for ending the game once the turtle begins.
Otherwise, I must say this is the most fun and balanced version I've seen yet. I see more different kinds of strategies being used by both teams than ever before. Plus, I can fade now! *does a happy dance*
3.2beta on public is 90% marine win cause you need much more teamwork than in the versions before. fade turned into paper and lerk can mostly just watch in combat situations cause hes too slow (i like the pancake removal though) to escape plus you dont get hive armor anymore
sc first is only effective in the first few minutes as always, then countered with obs or mt. what i have observed is that the alien team lacks at macro management and doesnt realise the whole game situation, marine rts or half of them, being untouched till marine victory and heavy armor... like fana said rt biting is the most boring part of ns maybe thats one point but i think its because the lack of macro of the people who play. always see ns as an rts game
a good point is that you see dc as first chamber again above mc, i also like the adrenaline lerk comeback
since 3.2 got out and as long as i play it my impression is negative, i dunno why 1 lmg marine is able to kill 3 decent skulks with like 2 meds and fades are just useless at defending the new hive against hmgs + sgs cause they are made from paper(give back bonus arrmor per hive) won't even mention lerk since the only thing he can do now is to sit in the vent and be spore turret(it's hell boring). This version is way too easy for marines.
I'm not sure what removing extra hive armor was supposed to remedy, but I believe it should be put back in. Skulks WAY too weak against lvl2-3 lmgs as it is.
they are weak against non upgraded lmg, as better is the weapon upgrade than the easier is to kill him same is with fade etc. bonus arrmor gives life forms some kind of opportunity to not get totally owned.
Been playing NS every now and then, even though mainly keeping hiatus, so guess a few, last tips are okay before going off permanently (until NS2 is published, if ever). I believe the following flaws have been in the game for a long, long time and I doubt they are fixed, but still...
-- In general, aliens need to be stronger in late game and taking down marine start. -- Onos needs to be fixed stat. He is too slow and too weak to justify the price. Devour also spoils fun play. -- Offence chambers need to be buffed. They are not very effective as blockades against lone rines alone, in which case there needs to be many. Unfortunately, in numbers they still are pretty bad against groups of marines, hence being both expensive and inefficient. I.e: not recommended to use. -- Gorge is a pop-in class. Pop-in to drop a structure and waste your res, pop-out to do something useful. -- Nades have effectively replaced GL. They're cheaper and much more effective.
That's it. I'm off. Gotta test Zombie Panic. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
A decision could be made............to kill the devour ability and put a 'recall' function on the onos instead <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> . The recall would require half the adren. from an onos and would put him into a hive that is not being attacked. :x. That'd make the onos almost impossible to kill (75res is a LOT LOT of res to waste...) and would allow very very damaging hit and run attacks--also allowing him to be a meatshield.
One might comment that HA's <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> would be the ultimate powerhouse b/c of no devour, but one could argue that you can just ...gore them down to a decent hp and 'recall'. Then come back. A counter would be lowering the HA armor a bit, up'ing regular amor a bit, and perhaps even making HA more or less expensive to balance out the onos not being able to 'eat' that amount of amor.
One might also comment that there would be other issues...eh.
------
Another radical decision that could be made..........is to just replace 'charge' with a recall function. This would end games REALLY f'ing fast b/c the oni would hardly ever die. Can you imagine a group of oni charging rine start and one by one recalling? The oni would cause immense irrepairable damage within a very short amount of time--and then they'd be back within the minute to...cause some more. This would fix a LOT of the endgame problems.
If the marines are going to kill the 3rd hive, they should be able to defend their base for 1-2 minutes against a crazy rogue onos or oni. If they're sieging...and they can actually siege it successfully, they should be able to defend against a recalling onos. Otherwise, WTH? should they not lose if they can't repel a crazy onos every minute or so after already giving up 3 hives?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />? If they marines gave up 3 hives, they should lose 95% of the time or even more. If they have the upgrades/weapons to fend off onos attacks for 5 minutes and siege/shoot down one of the hives, they should win. As they would have most likely won anyway even without an onos recalling. It just makes the 3 hive aliens a bit stronger, but the onos has already been nerfed w/ the 'killing' of the hive armor. I've died like 2-3 times as onos where in 3.1 I would NOT have died, just b/c hmg's #$%$'d up my armor so bad.
It sounds like they actually balanced 3.2 with this new beta2. Heres my take:
-<b>marine rt hp lowered from 6000 to 5000.</b> So, instead of running out of energy as a skulk biting down a full rt and the rt being full red, it should now be roughly at one bar or so. Thats a pretty big diff, since it takes skulks a long while to kill that remaining full 3 red bars when he has no energy. Sounds like this should balance out the better rt hitboxes nicely.
-<b>Onos HP raised from 700 to 950.</b> Well, onos needed a buffing, and this sounds like it should work out nicely. Thats an extra half LMG clip (without ups) itll take to down an onos. Pretty significant. It should really help out in those 1-hive lockdown stalemates. And, once that hive is taken...
-<b>The third hive grants an armor bonus equal to the 3.1 armor bonus.</b> So, aliens are going to be much more of powerhouses with the third hive, as they should be. It seems as though the onos has been buffed above the pre-3.2 state, but only for the first and third hive scenarios. Without the 2nd hive armor bonus, i'd guess that the 250 extra hp will end up about equal. I like. Onos were plenty strong (in the right hands) before, but a 3-hive onos should be the end-all epidemy of power in NS. Like it probably is now.
So, the end result of 3.2 will be boosting onos with 3 hives, nerfing all non-onos aliens with 2 hives (though not by THAT much), and boosting onos with 1 hive. Im talking about straight hit points here.
-<b>Each DC heals 10 + 3%, an extra 2% over beta1.</b> Coupled with: -<b>DC Limit: Each entity can only be healed by one DC per tick.</b> This is an interesting change. Theres no point in putting multiple DCs together now. One thing ive noticed about DCs is that they seem to be able to heal as many entities as are around them (whereas MCs only seem to give the adren boost to 2 entities around them, maybe 3). So, a single dc will now heal an onos for roughly 100 hp per tick, and 34 for fades. Very interesting. The new strat will be to space out the DCs (which, now that i think of it, is far better gameplay than the previous need to clump them for optimal use). You could even have DCs spaced out in a line, so retreating aliens can be healed all the way from the MS door to around the far corner, letting aliens have a huge amount of breathing (i.e. constant healing) room so they can maneuvre out of marine's LOS to prepare for the next push.
IMO this sounds like a great update to what sounds to be a spectacular new patch. The only thing i can think of that i still believe could use some balancing is the fade blink ROF. I understand the decision to lower it, but it seems almost too low. If the old ROF was 10 and the new one is 5, i'd suggest a happy medium of anywhere between 6-7.5. That small amount of extra oomph to the fade's ability to retreat could really help in the tight situations that fades are meant to be in. They were astoundingly good at escaping before, but now they seem damn useless at it. Regardless, i cant wait for 3.2 to become fully released. GJ.
Once again the NS devs seem to know what I want better than I do. The changes are great and I've recently had some of the most epic and fierce battles on the G4B2S server that compare to the great games of old.
The RT health change is great. Probably my favorite so far.
It's a little tough getting used to the fade. I spent so long getting used to number keys (back when quick switch was broken) and now I've got to learn to quick switch between meta/swipe and the new movement key. I do like it though and it seems like there's a lot of potential. Someone mentioned that meta+blinking feels like cheating and I have to agree.
I'll withhold any suggestions I have about balance until I've played a lot more.
Clanwars: I experienced that the aliens became to strong in 3.2 beta 2. I played a couple of PCWs and we always won our alien-round whereas the marine rounds became really difficult or unwinnable. I think its generally the reducement in health of the RTs. As you were able to hunt down RTs to 1/4 until you have to regenerate your adrenaline and now you have killed them in this "adrenaline range". the last fourth had generally taken more time because of the lack of adrenaline. There it is really hard for marine to go for ha to encounter lots of alienRTs or the 2nd hive because of the weak RTs. The only way seems to be to rush the alienRTs within the first three minutes otherwise you have probably lost, so aggressive tactics are enforced
Also the hive-to-hive-teleport thing has an impact on other chambers, especially SCs. I think that, because of this new feature, sensory chamber became too strong. You cant push their rts at the start because you cant affort two observatories and shotguns to deal enough damage and to be able to scan often enough. Also the possibility to totally cloak while moving at maximum speed if youre next to a SC quite unfair.
Suggestions: Make it like in Version 3.2 beta 1 just give aliens the 2-Hive-Armor-Bonus so they are able to encounter JP or HA.
Make the abilities of the Chamber as a structure different. I think that aliens should only be able to cloak 100% if they are not moving at all and in addition to that SC-cloaking shouldnt stack with the Upgrade-cloaking so that aliens cant be seen even thought theyre moving at maximum speed.
Public: In contrast to my criticism in clanwars i must say that public became very balanced, i havent seen such a variety of alien and marine wins on public in earlier versions apart from mean stacking. Maybe some changes should be connected with mp_tournamentmode, so on public RTs have less HP and therefore youre not forced to kill RTs all the time when youre not really willing to do this boring job.
________________________________________________
Lifeform-Check: Skulk: no changes
Gorge: webs weakened which is just fair
Lerk: Rambo-Lerks are not the way to go anymore, however sporing is still expensive enough and youre just not able to fly into 3 marines (and maybe kill them) anymore, which has been to strong for a 30res alien anyway.
Fade: The blink behaviour changed, but with the +movement-thingie you are able to move more efficient and more precious so that, if you dont stuck at every entrace, fades havent really become weaker. The difference between good and bad fades is identified by the movement ablity of the player.
Onos: It has been and still is a lategame-alien, but the 3.2b2 changes have killed long clan(!)-games.
________________________________________________
I think this text is long enough and if you think i should explain something more precise, then post it or better just write a PM so i cant edit the post that way.
[EDIT] Well, i forgot to mention that i think ns_orbital should be in the mapcycle. its often played in leagues and it is nice to play, maybe just my opinion. actually its more playable than shiva (which looks really nice). [/EDIT]
I am talking about clanwars and not public! In clanwars you cant afford to send 2 or 3 marines defending rts because they have fades! or lerks! can you imagine?! you cant kill a lerk-fade-combo with 2 marines and marine rts are dying way faster to a single skulk than in earlier version (i think its 40sec compared to 25 sec) ok, some mathematical magic: lets say 2 rts are killed and the marine arrives 10 seconds after it has died: - 15 sec more res flow (~4 res) - 10 sec until marine arrives (~2.5 res) - 15 secs to build (~4 res)
thats about 10 res for each killed rt and aliens can afford to send 1 skulk killing rts, especially when you make another rine occupied keeping/building/defending rts
<!--quoteo(post=1599088:date=Jan 15 2007, 06:11 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Jan 15 2007, 06:11 PM) [snapback]1599088[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Work on your res game a week or so more before teh whine <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you think we didnt already do that .... well how could you know
Comments
1.) Onos to weak: well, it has been said often enough now i think: onos dies too fast now that hive dependant armor has been reduced. other lifeforms can change their playingstyle accordingly, but onos, beeing the bulletsucker most of the times, already played hit-and-run before 3.2 was out
the best solution would be to give it more hp, this would also fix the "remaining armor when onos is dead with cara"-issue
2.)the new changes make it far more important that marine-restowers are attacked and destroyed
this puts more pressure on the aliens.
additionally with the changed hitboxes, finishing eating a rt is hard, because any marine is likely to snipe you away, where earlier it would be possible to find some cover
you should seriously consider lowering the hp of marine rts, as it would result in 2 things<ol type='1'><li>balancing the new hitboxes: chances of finishing an rt should stay approximately even</li><li>rt munching <b>IS NOT FUN</b>. to be honest, concepts in games that are just not fun are somehow wrong!!! im playing a game/shooter/etc, i dont want to look at the model of a rt and hold mousebutton 1 for 2 minutes until the rt is down >_ >
lowering the rt hp might not solve the problem, but it might help make it more bearable</li></ol>
Have you tried giving fade back the old blink (or even just a toggle to use or not use it, while keeping the +movement functionality either way) to counter turtling, during playtesting? You've completely changed its role in regard to any team that can aim.
The good:
-The movement Key.
-Hive teleport
-Stronger Dcs. (They are very good now, worth the res they cost)
The Bad:
Loss of FF affecting hives. We need this back, it to hard to expect the gorge to be healing lifeforms, and using the hive, and most hive to use them puts you in a big open spot, or it too hard to get to do so fast.
Reduction in fade speed: Very bad, It makes fading much harder, and made me go back to playing 3.1.
Onos: It even weaker now, It something that i can almost solo, An onos for 75 res should be something that takes a team effort to kill, not some Rambo that has a jp. It might be better priced at 40 res, as they are still weaker then fades. When i thought of an onos, I thought of something that 4 marines are all shooting HMGS, wearing HA and JPs, and they barely live, maybe even 1 or 2 of them die. Not something that can only kill a marine if he is by him self and lacking a jp. The new charge is nice, but it feels like it should be replaced with something more fitting to an onos, and make it an ability that the onos always has, so that it can do something at less the 2 hives.
SC is weak vs the second hive fight. DCs are now worthwhile in that second fight, they can keep the hive up. Mcs allow for rapid gorgy healing and mass hits and runs. SCs, let you do what, If the marines have an obs next to the TF ( and I don't know of any commander worth his res, who would not put one there in a siege vs SC), no invisibly, SOF, useless, they re all right out side, focus, you are too slow to survive so, worthless.
EDIT:
After playing several games of Beta 1 last night, I saw that the aliens really need something that can bust marines that are holding ground. After a defeat at hive 2, a loss of marines in every attempt to advance, we pushed for the third hive, and dug in there. With about 4 res nodes, (2 stayed up all the time, the others where under constant attack) we slowed teched up, and got everyone, but 2, in heavys with HMG (I had a Gl for clearing structures . The two where jet packs, both HMG, dropped to the best players to clear onos. After full tech. we slowly moved on the second hive, clearing ocs, and dcs, and killing lifeforms. Despite a 3 onos and other lifeforms, hive drop rush,(well we where teching up).
This showed me that the aliens need something to boost hive 2 game, as they could not take the hive, despite teamwork.(this was on TGNS 3.2 Beta 1)
It should have HP/Armor to match.
Was it really neccisary to nerf the Gorge? Really?
Especially when 3.2 has more focus on killing Marine structures.
Consider reducing the Res price on Lerk, Fade, and Onos by 5~10 points.
Consider increasing the effectiveness of Umbra.
Dont decrease the lerks speed, if they want to easily kill the lerk all they need to do is get a shotgun or two.
The onos is fine. The extra armor is for when the onos regens it's hp.
Marine rts should have their hp decreased. If it's decreased I'd then suggest create a research upgrade that increases the hp.
Also I havent tried it, but charge - devour might be very difficult now, due to the knockback of charge.
Which would take away the charge devour hide of heavies from larger trains. The loss of that ability and the loss of armor, might just make the onos not worth the 75 res.
Onos really is an esoteric support class now. There's no reason to onos other than to counter heavies. A fade is much more effective vs basically everything else.
SC first requires serious teamwork to win, you basically have to lock marines in MS with 1-2 nodes within the first four minutes of the game, or else marines win.
DC first makes for indestructible fades. A dc nest in a vent somewhere in the middle of the map makes it really easy for aliens to control the map. The only reason dc first won't take over is because it requires slightly more teamwork than MC first, and is not much more powerful.
The only reason MC first is staying dominant, is that it requires virtually no strategy to use. Plunk three down in a hive or a hive vent, and you're done. I'm not saying it's overpowered, though.
I think MT works even if you press shift, which is highly irritating.
+movement is highly awesome.
Fades are fine, you can still own it up, you just have to be a little more careful.
Skulk is fine, a little weak around the 5-6 minute mark, before the hive goes up but after marines have got A1 and W1 or 2, but that should be when the early fade is raping rines anyway. Once the second hive goes up they become effective again.
DC's can totally own sieges now, as a matter of fact if someone goes around dropping 5-6 dcs in the hive, hives become virtually invincible. Maybe cap DC healing rates on structures?
The new rt hitboxes are awesome.
People are going around complaining about weak alien endgame, but honestly, if devs fixed that, then they would whine about slippery slope. In the end, this is Natural Selection. Adapt or die.
This version is, IMHO, a lot more fun than 3.1. Keep it up, devs!
Sollution suggestion: Raise MT cost by 150-200%, drop Observatory and scan cost. This way commander can still build Observatories into good positions, but it would still allow individual skulks to ambush marines which are moving in unsecured areas. Currenlty Observatories are rarely built into the field, because MT is too good.
- Garo
I think that currently MT is too cheap. I believe that MT should be Hive 2 counter, but now, commanders research MT quickly to counter SC, thus making good skulk ambushes much harder.
Sollution suggestion: Raise MT cost by 150-200%, drop Observatory and scan cost. This way commander can still build Observatories into good positions, but it would still allow individual skulks to ambush marines which are moving in unsecured areas. Currenlty Observatories are rarely built into the field, because MT is too good.
- Garo
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would really make sieges way too easy.
Anyways, wouldn't the simplier solution just be to make Skulks immune to MT.
-OR-
Make Cloaking & Silence both block MT regardless what speed you're moving at.
But all in all, 3.2 is a great version. I'm looking forward to the next beta-version!
Motion tracking has always been somewhat overpowered. Raising the cost or time to research won't make much difference. The biggest difference can be made in allowing silence to render aliens immune to motion tracking, thus providing an effective counter to MT. I always assumed MT was based off of sound/vibrations, so it also makes sense.
Jet packs are overly effective for their cost. I rarely see HA used anymore despite the fact it is still very effective. Comms tend to go with JP because they can support a lot more people with the same amount of res. Raising the cost per jetpack, or making a more reliable counter, are the only options I see to affect this issue.
At first I thought that fades were far to weak, with both reduced acceleration and lack of Hive 2/3 armor. I've gotten used to them now and they seem quite powerful, but the nerfed acceleration can really be a killer, even for the most skilled fades, if a wall or small rise in the floor is hit. Without altering the normal movement, maybe allowing a wall to be blinked off of for a short boost in acceleration would remedy this problem.
The onos is the biggest problem I've seen so far. At level 3 damage, a single clip from an HMG can usually kill an onos, and just two marines can easily down one at that point. When marines can no longer escape base, they naturally begin to turtle and can take down oni far too quickly. The obvious problem of remaining armor when an onos has carapace needs adjusted too. I'd suggest permitting the onos to have the effects of hive armor. Without it, there is such a massive change in its health that the weaknesses it possesses make it useless for ending the game once the turtle begins.
Otherwise, I must say this is the most fun and balanced version I've seen yet. I see more different kinds of strategies being used by both teams than ever before. Plus, I can fade now! *does a happy dance*
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
sc first is only effective in the first few minutes as always, then countered with obs or mt. what i have observed is that the alien team lacks at macro management and doesnt realise the whole game situation, marine rts or half of them, being untouched till marine victory and heavy armor... like fana said rt biting is the most boring part of ns maybe thats one point but i think its because the lack of macro of the people who play. always see ns as an rts game
a good point is that you see dc as first chamber again above mc, i also like the adrenaline lerk comeback
-- In general, aliens need to be stronger in late game and taking down marine start.
-- Onos needs to be fixed stat. He is too slow and too weak to justify the price. Devour also spoils fun play.
-- Offence chambers need to be buffed. They are not very effective as blockades against lone rines alone, in which case there needs to be many. Unfortunately, in numbers they still are pretty bad against groups of marines, hence being both expensive and inefficient. I.e: not recommended to use.
-- Gorge is a pop-in class. Pop-in to drop a structure and waste your res, pop-out to do something useful.
-- Nades have effectively replaced GL. They're cheaper and much more effective.
That's it. I'm off. Gotta test Zombie Panic. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
One might comment that HA's <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> would be the ultimate powerhouse b/c of no devour, but one could argue that you can just ...gore them down to a decent hp and 'recall'. Then come back. A counter would be lowering the HA armor a bit, up'ing regular amor a bit, and perhaps even making HA more or less expensive to balance out the onos not being able to 'eat' that amount of amor.
One might also comment that there would be other issues...eh.
------
Another radical decision that could be made..........is to just replace 'charge' with a recall function. This would end games REALLY f'ing fast b/c the oni would hardly ever die. Can you imagine a group of oni charging rine start and one by one recalling? The oni would cause immense irrepairable damage within a very short amount of time--and then they'd be back within the minute to...cause some more. This would fix a LOT of the endgame problems.
If the marines are going to kill the 3rd hive, they should be able to defend their base for 1-2 minutes against a crazy rogue onos or oni. If they're sieging...and they can actually siege it successfully, they should be able to defend against a recalling onos. Otherwise, WTH? should they not lose if they can't repel a crazy onos every minute or so after already giving up 3 hives?<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />? If they marines gave up 3 hives, they should lose 95% of the time or even more. If they have the upgrades/weapons to fend off onos attacks for 5 minutes and siege/shoot down one of the hives, they should win. As they would have most likely won anyway even without an onos recalling. It just makes the 3 hive aliens a bit stronger, but the onos has already been nerfed w/ the 'killing' of the hive armor. I've died like 2-3 times as onos where in 3.1 I would NOT have died, just b/c hmg's #$%$'d up my armor so bad.
-<b>marine rt hp lowered from 6000 to 5000.</b> So, instead of running out of energy as a skulk biting down a full rt and the rt being full red, it should now be roughly at one bar or so. Thats a pretty big diff, since it takes skulks a long while to kill that remaining full 3 red bars when he has no energy. Sounds like this should balance out the better rt hitboxes nicely.
-<b>Onos HP raised from 700 to 950.</b> Well, onos needed a buffing, and this sounds like it should work out nicely. Thats an extra half LMG clip (without ups) itll take to down an onos. Pretty significant. It should really help out in those 1-hive lockdown stalemates. And, once that hive is taken...
-<b>The third hive grants an armor bonus equal to the 3.1 armor bonus.</b> So, aliens are going to be much more of powerhouses with the third hive, as they should be. It seems as though the onos has been buffed above the pre-3.2 state, but only for the first and third hive scenarios. Without the 2nd hive armor bonus, i'd guess that the 250 extra hp will end up about equal. I like. Onos were plenty strong (in the right hands) before, but a 3-hive onos should be the end-all epidemy of power in NS. Like it probably is now.
So, the end result of 3.2 will be boosting onos with 3 hives, nerfing all non-onos aliens with 2 hives (though not by THAT much), and boosting onos with 1 hive. Im talking about straight hit points here.
-<b>Each DC heals 10 + 3%, an extra 2% over beta1.</b> Coupled with:
-<b>DC Limit: Each entity can only be healed by one DC per tick.</b>
This is an interesting change. Theres no point in putting multiple DCs together now. One thing ive noticed about DCs is that they seem to be able to heal as many entities as are around them (whereas MCs only seem to give the adren boost to 2 entities around them, maybe 3). So, a single dc will now heal an onos for roughly 100 hp per tick, and 34 for fades. Very interesting. The new strat will be to space out the DCs (which, now that i think of it, is far better gameplay than the previous need to clump them for optimal use). You could even have DCs spaced out in a line, so retreating aliens can be healed all the way from the MS door to around the far corner, letting aliens have a huge amount of breathing (i.e. constant healing) room so they can maneuvre out of marine's LOS to prepare for the next push.
IMO this sounds like a great update to what sounds to be a spectacular new patch. The only thing i can think of that i still believe could use some balancing is the fade blink ROF. I understand the decision to lower it, but it seems almost too low. If the old ROF was 10 and the new one is 5, i'd suggest a happy medium of anywhere between 6-7.5. That small amount of extra oomph to the fade's ability to retreat could really help in the tight situations that fades are meant to be in. They were astoundingly good at escaping before, but now they seem damn useless at it. Regardless, i cant wait for 3.2 to become fully released. GJ.
One other point, beta2 effectively buffs hive2 onos with carapace by allowing the extra armour to be used in straight damage scenarios.
The RT health change is great. Probably my favorite so far.
It's a little tough getting used to the fade. I spent so long getting used to number keys (back when quick switch was broken) and now I've got to learn to quick switch between meta/swipe and the new movement key. I do like it though and it seems like there's a lot of potential. Someone mentioned that meta+blinking feels like cheating and I have to agree.
I'll withhold any suggestions I have about balance until I've played a lot more.
I experienced that the aliens became to strong in 3.2 beta 2. I played a couple of PCWs and we always won our alien-round whereas the marine rounds became really difficult or unwinnable. I think its generally the reducement in health of the RTs. As you were able to hunt down RTs to 1/4 until you have to regenerate your adrenaline and now you have killed them in this "adrenaline range". the last fourth had generally taken more time because of the lack of adrenaline. There it is really hard for marine to go for ha to encounter lots of alienRTs or the 2nd hive because of the weak RTs.
The only way seems to be to rush the alienRTs within the first three minutes otherwise you have probably lost, so aggressive tactics are enforced
Also the hive-to-hive-teleport thing has an impact on other chambers, especially SCs. I think that, because of this new feature, sensory chamber became too strong. You cant push their rts at the start because you cant affort two observatories and shotguns to deal enough damage and to be able to scan often enough. Also the possibility to totally cloak while moving at maximum speed if youre next to a SC quite unfair.
Suggestions:
Make it like in Version 3.2 beta 1 just give aliens the 2-Hive-Armor-Bonus so they are able to encounter JP or HA.
Make the abilities of the Chamber as a structure different. I think that aliens should only be able to cloak 100% if they are not moving at all and in addition to that SC-cloaking shouldnt stack with the Upgrade-cloaking so that aliens cant be seen even thought theyre moving at maximum speed.
Public:
In contrast to my criticism in clanwars i must say that public became very balanced, i havent seen such a variety of alien and marine wins on public in earlier versions apart from mean stacking.
Maybe some changes should be connected with mp_tournamentmode, so on public RTs have less HP and therefore youre not forced to kill RTs all the time when youre not really willing to do this boring job.
________________________________________________
Lifeform-Check:
Skulk: no changes
Gorge: webs weakened which is just fair
Lerk: Rambo-Lerks are not the way to go anymore, however sporing is still expensive enough and youre just not able to fly into 3 marines (and maybe kill them) anymore, which has been to strong for a 30res alien anyway.
Fade: The blink behaviour changed, but with the +movement-thingie you are able to move more efficient and more precious so that, if you dont stuck at every entrace, fades havent really become weaker. The difference between good and bad fades is identified by the movement ablity of the player.
Onos: It has been and still is a lategame-alien, but the 3.2b2 changes have killed long clan(!)-games.
________________________________________________
I think this text is long enough and if you think i should explain something more precise, then post it or better just write a PM so i cant edit the post that way.
[EDIT]
Well, i forgot to mention that i think ns_orbital should be in the mapcycle. its often played in leagues and it is nice to play, maybe just my opinion. actually its more playable than shiva (which looks really nice).
[/EDIT]
In clanwars you cant afford to send 2 or 3 marines defending rts because they have fades! or lerks! can you imagine?! you cant kill a lerk-fade-combo with 2 marines and marine rts are dying way faster to a single skulk than in earlier version (i think its 40sec compared to 25 sec)
ok, some mathematical magic:
lets say 2 rts are killed and the marine arrives 10 seconds after it has died:
- 15 sec more res flow (~4 res)
- 10 sec until marine arrives (~2.5 res)
- 15 secs to build (~4 res)
thats about 10 res for each killed rt and aliens can afford to send 1 skulk killing rts, especially when you make another rine occupied keeping/building/defending rts
1 suggestion:
watch or play a pcw some time
Work on your res game a week or so more before teh whine
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you think we didnt already do that ....
well how could you know