well i think there used to be an idea floating around where if a player went gorge theyd get a benign increase to their resincome the equivalent to having an extra rt(teamwide, but getting only the 1/x bonus for the gorge) which really opens up options for perma gorg whislt not really offering much-to-anything for people who want to go gorg to go lifeforms faster. Definately game changing, though I cant really think how severe a game change it would provide.
So yeah I thnk I saw that idea floating around somewhere at some point, or I may have just made it up now I dunno. So its probably been tested and scrapped <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> But as a suggestion for a new res model I think it atleast would merit some investigation cause its subtle enough to not break everything <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (probably the most significant game difference would be that a perm gorg from the start would acquire a hive quicker, using that model as an example and the aliens losing no rts you could see some worryingly early second hives, but it certainly would keep the hive ontime in larger games) the other major change i would forsee would be a lot more forward structure spamming, and me im a goddamn sadist i like crap like that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
edit: I suppose I should elaborate further on 1.0x perma gorg game dynamics, a gorge got a larger chunk of the alien res pie and as such there was usually just 1 permanent gorge to handle the building. This isnt what this system is proposing but the dynamic is similar in the way that: Though this system offers a res advantage to things like killing a hive, it actually requires the gorge to stay alive for the whole time, an astute commander will know the location of said gorge thus adjusting the gameplay dymaics, it would offer a slightly quicker hive, but this is offset somewhat by if the gorge dies the hive will be delayed and the aliens will have to either invest in defending the said gorge or take the gorge pretty much out of play on the very backline, making it almost useless.
hmm thinking about it, that dynamic sounds quite fun, though we all know itll never be in ns1(again)...
Well they could just "speed up" the res flow, the same way that they speed up the alien respawn rates. I'm sure they could figure a multiplier that isn't too over the top.
_
Also it couldn't hurt if they made it so that Res refills while the aliens are dead.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
I don't think big games favor marines at all. In fact, I find it the opposite. Remember, the commander has the SAME amount of res to work with no matter what the game size. If he has 12 marines, that means usuddenly, he needs to spend TWICE as much resources medding and ammoing his team.
In a big game, 2 or 3 lerks (EASILY doable) will completely drain the marines of res. From there it is all downhill for the marines.
And don't give me that "bigger games means more r4k" crap, because it works both ways, and r4k doesn't even begin to pay for meds and ammo. One gas can make the entire group of marine severely weakened.
<!--quoteo(post=1594961:date=Jan 5 2007, 03:37 AM:name=Church)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Church @ Jan 5 2007, 03:37 AM) [snapback]1594961[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't think big games favor marines at all. In fact, I find it the opposite. Remember, the commander has the SAME amount of res to work with no matter what the game size. If he has 12 marines, that means usuddenly, he needs to spend TWICE as much resources medding and ammoing his team.
In a big game, 2 or 3 lerks (EASILY doable) will completely drain the marines of res. From there it is all downhill for the marines.
And don't give me that "bigger games means more r4k" crap, because it works both ways, and r4k doesn't even begin to pay for meds and ammo. One gas can make the entire group of marine severely weakened. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Upgrades for Marines, you pay one price. Regardless of how many players are on.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Yeah, so? Aliens, you drop 3 chambrs, no matter how many aliens are there. Upgrades cost no res, which is good. Aliens start with a LOT more res than marines, and they have no upkeep costs (no need to res for medding). That's why marines are constantly out of res while aliens can sit comfortably on 3 res nodes and still win the game.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
It's not just the res system, but you have to take a look at the battlefield.
On big servers marines don't have to walk alone, they can push in groups, which means faster buildtimes and especially less resources are lost due to dropped weapons by dead marines. Higher lifeforms on the other side experience focused fire when attacking marines which reduces their time to attack.
Marines blocking eachothers bullets sure happens, but aliens blocking eachother can result in more lost res. This does only partly apply to big rooms in maps, of course.
There are more marines able to attack one specific alien or building at once than aliens are able to, which doesn't apply to 6vs6, but changes some gameplay aspects.
<!--quoteo(post=1595278:date=Jan 5 2007, 09:29 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ Jan 5 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]1595278[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> There are more marines able to attack one specific alien or building at once than aliens are able to, which doesn't apply to 6vs6, but changes some gameplay aspects. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> clarify?
<!--quoteo(post=1595291:date=Jan 6 2007, 02:43 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Jan 6 2007, 02:43 AM) [snapback]1595291[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> clarify?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines can focus-fire much easier than aliens, due to the range of their weapons.
Other combat aliens can't help Gorges build quicker. While combat marines can always build. (Even in HA w/ HMG)
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited January 2007
-It's more likly to get your armor upgraded marines sucessfully through a camped and munched phasegate after beacon, because the phasegate isn't big enough to let all aliens take part on the big meal. (especially with the decreased phasegate cooldown and the removed telefrag, which sometimes pushs marines up in the air after phasing, when the pg is crowded.) -All marines can shoot at the hive at once, whose hp is balanced for 6vs6. -Aliens can't all at once bite one building down(even worse with ff=on)
Moreover aliens can't even move and concentrate such a big "fire"power like marines can with beacon and phasegates, except on an attacked hive, of course, if all aliens are alive at all and not sitting in the spawn queue. There is no alien becon to give this rushed hive another try and chance.
All this is sure not the fault of the res system, but enhances the weak spots of it.
I normally don't push plugins (see my other posts) but they could probably fix many of the problems you're having on large servers, they just have to be balanced correctly.
Resource Allocation Control, Alien Wave Spawning..the sky is the limit as far as modifying the game is concerned.
get rid of mt. aliens are the stalkers, not the ones that can group together easily with beacon and phasegates (which are also overpowered for what they are).
<!--quoteo(post=1595565:date=Jan 6 2007, 08:55 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 6 2007, 08:55 PM) [snapback]1595565[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> get rid of mt. aliens are the stalkers, not the ones that can group together easily with beacon and phasegates (which are also overpowered for what they are). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well how about this
Make it so that much like how cloaking blocks MT if you stand still. Do that by default.
Then make it so that Silence blocks MT regardless of what you do.
So if the aliens want to be super sneaky, they can use cloaking + silence
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
point of MT was to counter MC. Point of SC was to counter MT. However combat does not have SC. Even though combat is nothing compared to classic it would be nice it combats Cloak would counter MT. Make em get scan. Co should be used to learn them ns, not waste it.
MT takes well over two minutes to upgrade, delays phase gates (if researched before), and slows armour, weapon and advanced armory upgrades because it costs 35 res leaving the marine team lagging behind in terms of sheer firepower.
<!--quoteo(post=1595617:date=Jan 6 2007, 07:44 PM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Jan 6 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]1595617[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> MT takes well over two minutes to upgrade, delays phase gates (if researched before), and slows armour, weapon and advanced armory upgrades because it costs 35 res leaving the marine team lagging behind in terms of sheer firepower.
Sorry if I don't agree that MT is overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MT dominates pre hive 2 lifeforms with the exception of the fade and onos (though early game, the onos is not possible).
The problem lies the alien team despite their disadvantage, can still get that second hive up. Now they are going against leap skulks (MT doesn't help much against leap) and umbra lerks.
MT is great early if you can surpress the enemy to a 1 hive situation, it will be a deterimental upgrade if the marine team is not aggressive enough early on.
<!--quoteo(post=1595589:date=Jan 6 2007, 05:02 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Jan 6 2007, 05:02 PM) [snapback]1595589[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> point of MT was to counter MC. Point of SC was to counter MT. However combat does not have SC. Even though combat is nothing compared to classic it would be nice it combats Cloak would counter MT. Make em get scan. Co should be used to learn them ns, not waste it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont think anything should completely counter an upgrade. thats what mt does to silence. who picks silence up when they know they have mt? silence is rarely used because of this.
i just personally feel that if any team should get a default "See where the enemy is at all times", it should be aliens, they stalk marines, not vice versa. scent of fear is not the same (not saying its bad), it taks an upgrade, is limited to just you, and is limited in distance. if aliens dont have mt, then neither team should. scan is good enough for marines.
and as far as counters go, what counters dc? what counters sc? why are there some things that counter a specific upgrade, making it useless, and there is no counter for other alien upgrades?
do you know how often i want to pick silence, but cant because of mt? its really annoying. btw does moving your mouse still show up on mt?
<!--quoteo(post=1595637:date=Jan 6 2007, 04:44 PM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 6 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]1595637[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> do you know how often i want to pick silence, but cant because of mt? its really annoying. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Probably not very often, considering MT takes a long time to upgrade and usually isn't researched until mid-late game.
<!--quoteo(post=1595432:date=Jan 6 2007, 02:20 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Jan 6 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]1595432[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How much ppl nag, it IS supposed to be balanced for 6v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats not what I heard :o word on the street is 6v6 is not the main balance focus <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1595637:date=Jan 7 2007, 12:44 AM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 7 2007, 12:44 AM) [snapback]1595637[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> and as far as counters go, what counters dc? what counters sc? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
armor and weapon upgrades + medspam counters dc and an AA wouldnt hurt, which is why MT is detremental to the marine team sometimes as it really accomplishes nothing against a team using DC.
sc is countered by a multitude of things, observatories built in the field, pinging, armor upgrades + welders to counteract focus and if you so choose hive lockdowns are useful against sc.
those arent nearly as clear cut counters as mt to silence per say. you could even argue that the counters you gave arent treally counters to the upgrades.
i mean, higher dmg just makes redemption work better.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited January 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1595700:date=Jan 7 2007, 02:20 AM:name=MrBananaMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBananaMan @ Jan 7 2007, 02:20 AM) [snapback]1595700[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i mean, higher dmg just makes redemption work better. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You must confuse something here. Higher dmg can trigger redemption earlier (which isn't really better), but at the same time redemption has less time to kick in before the alien dies.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Ppl.. in classic cloak is only a perfect counter to MT when under cloak from a SC. (read SC) Point is, in combat we have noone. Since they can also get scan I'd say do make it perfect vs MT in combat only
<!--quoteo(post=1595786:date=Jan 7 2007, 07:41 AM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Jan 7 2007, 07:41 AM) [snapback]1595786[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ppl.. in classic cloak is only a perfect counter to MT when under cloak from a SC. (read SC) Point is, in combat we have noone. Since they can also get scan I'd say do make it perfect vs MT in combat only <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in classic, walking cloak is now a perfect coutner to mt, the upgrade cloak. but that doesnt mean every alien wants to get it and walk slowly the whole time.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
true there, but then they should cover important places with SCs. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
edited January 2007
Oh yeahI also forgot to mention that with bigger teams marines must spend more res just to KEEP UP WITH THE ALIENS IN SPAWN RATES!
Aliens get to spawn faster depending on number of aliens. In say...a 12 v 12 game, marines need to spend 60 res on IPs instead of 20 or 40 just to break even. So, not only do aliens start with 25 more res for each alien, the marines need to spend more res at the beginning just to keep up, before all the medding requests.
Comments
So yeah I thnk I saw that idea floating around somewhere at some point, or I may have just made it up now I dunno. So its probably been tested and scrapped <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> But as a suggestion for a new res model I think it atleast would merit some investigation cause its subtle enough to not break everything <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> (probably the most significant game difference would be that a perm gorg from the start would acquire a hive quicker, using that model as an example and the aliens losing no rts you could see some worryingly early second hives, but it certainly would keep the hive ontime in larger games) the other major change i would forsee would be a lot more forward structure spamming, and me im a goddamn sadist i like crap like that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
edit: I suppose I should elaborate further on 1.0x perma gorg game dynamics, a gorge got a larger chunk of the alien res pie and as such there was usually just 1 permanent gorge to handle the building. This isnt what this system is proposing but the dynamic is similar in the way that:
Though this system offers a res advantage to things like killing a hive, it actually requires the gorge to stay alive for the whole time, an astute commander will know the location of said gorge thus adjusting the gameplay dymaics, it would offer a slightly quicker hive, but this is offset somewhat by if the gorge dies the hive will be delayed and the aliens will have to either invest in defending the said gorge or take the gorge pretty much out of play on the very backline, making it almost useless.
hmm thinking about it, that dynamic sounds quite fun, though we all know itll never be in ns1(again)...
I'm sure they could figure a multiplier that isn't too over the top.
_
Also it couldn't hurt if they made it so that Res refills while the aliens are dead.
In a big game, 2 or 3 lerks (EASILY doable) will completely drain the marines of res. From there it is all downhill for the marines.
And don't give me that "bigger games means more r4k" crap, because it works both ways, and r4k doesn't even begin to pay for meds and ammo. One gas can make the entire group of marine severely weakened.
I don't think big games favor marines at all. In fact, I find it the opposite. Remember, the commander has the SAME amount of res to work with no matter what the game size. If he has 12 marines, that means usuddenly, he needs to spend TWICE as much resources medding and ammoing his team.
In a big game, 2 or 3 lerks (EASILY doable) will completely drain the marines of res. From there it is all downhill for the marines.
And don't give me that "bigger games means more r4k" crap, because it works both ways, and r4k doesn't even begin to pay for meds and ammo. One gas can make the entire group of marine severely weakened.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upgrades for Marines, you pay one price. Regardless of how many players are on.
On big servers marines don't have to walk alone, they can push in groups, which means faster buildtimes and especially less resources are lost due to dropped weapons by dead marines.
Higher lifeforms on the other side experience focused fire when attacking marines which reduces their time to attack.
Marines blocking eachothers bullets sure happens, but aliens blocking eachother can result in more lost res.
This does only partly apply to big rooms in maps, of course.
There are more marines able to attack one specific alien or building at once than aliens are able to, which doesn't apply to 6vs6, but changes some gameplay aspects.
There are more marines able to attack one specific alien or building at once than aliens are able to, which doesn't apply to 6vs6, but changes some gameplay aspects.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
clarify?
clarify?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can focus-fire much easier than aliens, due to the range of their weapons.
Other combat aliens can't help Gorges build quicker.
While combat marines can always build. (Even in HA w/ HMG)
(especially with the decreased phasegate cooldown and the removed telefrag, which sometimes pushs marines up in the air after phasing, when the pg is crowded.)
-All marines can shoot at the hive at once, whose hp is balanced for 6vs6.
-Aliens can't all at once bite one building down(even worse with ff=on)
Moreover aliens can't even move and concentrate such a big "fire"power like marines can with beacon and phasegates, except on an attacked hive, of course, if all aliens are alive at all and not sitting in the spawn queue. There is no alien becon to give this rushed hive another try and chance.
All this is sure not the fault of the res system, but enhances the weak spots of it.
Resource Allocation Control, Alien Wave Spawning..the sky is the limit as far as modifying the game is concerned.
Rines are called a SQUAD, not a army. no matter how much kharaa you got, if you stare into 10 HMGs its not gona help
get rid of mt. aliens are the stalkers, not the ones that can group together easily with beacon and phasegates (which are also overpowered for what they are).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well how about this
Make it so that much like how cloaking blocks MT if you stand still.
Do that by default.
Then make it so that Silence blocks MT regardless of what you do.
So if the aliens want to be super sneaky, they can use cloaking + silence
Point of SC was to counter MT.
However combat does not have SC.
Even though combat is nothing compared to classic it would be nice it combats Cloak would counter MT. Make em get scan. Co should be used to learn them ns, not waste it.
Sorry if I don't agree that MT is overpowered.
MT takes well over two minutes to upgrade, delays phase gates (if researched before), and slows armour, weapon and advanced armory upgrades because it costs 35 res leaving the marine team lagging behind in terms of sheer firepower.
Sorry if I don't agree that MT is overpowered.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MT dominates pre hive 2 lifeforms with the exception of the fade and onos (though early game, the onos is not possible).
The problem lies the alien team despite their disadvantage, can still get that second hive up. Now they are going against leap skulks (MT doesn't help much against leap) and umbra lerks.
MT is great early if you can surpress the enemy to a 1 hive situation, it will be a deterimental upgrade if the marine team is not aggressive enough early on.
point of MT was to counter MC.
Point of SC was to counter MT.
However combat does not have SC.
Even though combat is nothing compared to classic it would be nice it combats Cloak would counter MT. Make em get scan. Co should be used to learn them ns, not waste it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i dont think anything should completely counter an upgrade. thats what mt does to silence. who picks silence up when they know they have mt? silence is rarely used because of this.
i just personally feel that if any team should get a default "See where the enemy is at all times", it should be aliens, they stalk marines, not vice versa. scent of fear is not the same (not saying its bad), it taks an upgrade, is limited to just you, and is limited in distance. if aliens dont have mt, then neither team should. scan is good enough for marines.
and as far as counters go, what counters dc? what counters sc? why are there some things that counter a specific upgrade, making it useless, and there is no counter for other alien upgrades?
do you know how often i want to pick silence, but cant because of mt? its really annoying. btw does moving your mouse still show up on mt?
do you know how often i want to pick silence, but cant because of mt? its really annoying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably not very often, considering MT takes a long time to upgrade and usually isn't researched until mid-late game.
nothing should counter cloaking right? right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nothing except scan and an obs, which are temporary.
How much ppl nag, it IS supposed to be balanced for 6v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not what I heard :o word on the street is 6v6 is not the main balance focus <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
and as far as counters go, what counters dc? what counters sc?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
armor and weapon upgrades + medspam counters dc and an AA wouldnt hurt, which is why MT is detremental to the marine team sometimes as it really accomplishes nothing against a team using DC.
sc is countered by a multitude of things, observatories built in the field, pinging, armor upgrades + welders to counteract focus and if you so choose hive lockdowns are useful against sc.
i mean, higher dmg just makes redemption work better.
i mean, higher dmg just makes redemption work better.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must confuse something here.
Higher dmg can trigger redemption earlier (which isn't really better), but at the same time redemption has less time to kick in before the alien dies.
Point is, in combat we have noone. Since they can also get scan I'd say do make it perfect vs MT in combat only
Ppl.. in classic cloak is only a perfect counter to MT when under cloak from a SC. (read SC)
Point is, in combat we have noone. Since they can also get scan I'd say do make it perfect vs MT in combat only
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in classic, walking cloak is now a perfect coutner to mt, the upgrade cloak. but that doesnt mean every alien wants to get it and walk slowly the whole time.
Didn't know it did full counter MT on walk now
Aliens get to spawn faster depending on number of aliens. In say...a 12 v 12 game, marines need to spend 60 res on IPs instead of 20 or 40 just to break even. So, not only do aliens start with 25 more res for each alien, the marines need to spend more res at the beginning just to keep up, before all the medding requests.