Gameplay - elements to change?
yoda
Join Date: 2003-11-27 Member: 23619Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2003-11-27 Member: 23619Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">From the recent interview...</div><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
5) What is your personal opinion on the competitive communities' incorporation of g<b>ame engine exploits like bunnyhopping and wall-strafing into the general style of play?</b> Is this something that will be continued on in NS2, or will they be removed prior to play (assuming NS2 runs on Source here, since it has many of the same exploits as goldsrc)?
I only expect people to play the game how it IS, not how some arbitrary person or entity wants it to be. If it's in the game, we can't condemn anyone for playing it any other way! <u>I can't say BH or wall-strafing were explicitly designed into NS, but that's what happens when you have limited development resources and are using an existing engine. We're not sure if they will be retained or removed for NS2 yet.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, perhaps I shouldnt comment but I for one found that bhing and wall-strafing to a lesser extent were brilliant additions to NS - if you could do it without the scripts and blah, it was a key skill that people were able to master. I think that it added a slightly higher lvl of gameplay for the veteran player to master, giving them a little edge (playing it down yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
I for one desperatly hope that the team decides to include or try to include these features in the new NS2.
Anyone else think the same? ^^
<3 yoda
5) What is your personal opinion on the competitive communities' incorporation of g<b>ame engine exploits like bunnyhopping and wall-strafing into the general style of play?</b> Is this something that will be continued on in NS2, or will they be removed prior to play (assuming NS2 runs on Source here, since it has many of the same exploits as goldsrc)?
I only expect people to play the game how it IS, not how some arbitrary person or entity wants it to be. If it's in the game, we can't condemn anyone for playing it any other way! <u>I can't say BH or wall-strafing were explicitly designed into NS, but that's what happens when you have limited development resources and are using an existing engine. We're not sure if they will be retained or removed for NS2 yet.</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, perhaps I shouldnt comment but I for one found that bhing and wall-strafing to a lesser extent were brilliant additions to NS - if you could do it without the scripts and blah, it was a key skill that people were able to master. I think that it added a slightly higher lvl of gameplay for the veteran player to master, giving them a little edge (playing it down yes <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
I for one desperatly hope that the team decides to include or try to include these features in the new NS2.
Anyone else think the same? ^^
<3 yoda
Comments
btw: Dystopia (another Source mod) has implemented bhop to allow some skill-based movement.
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alias "jz0r" "+jump;wait; -jump;wait"
alias "Rz0r" " +right;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r"
alias "Lz0r" " +left;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r"
alias "hz0r" " jz0r;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r;jz0r"
alias "zb1" "-moveright;+moveleft;Lz0r;-left;hz0r;-moveleft"
alias "zb2" "-moveleft;+moveright;Rz0r;-right;hz0r;-moveright"
bind mwheelup "zb1"
bind mwheeldown "zb2"
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the only script used is in AIDING of the bunnyhopping. one would use a 2 jump or 3jump script ...
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Using multible jump scripts for bunnyhopping is still using scripts for bunnyhopping, though it only aids your ability to bhop. And all I'm saying is, that this should not be possible!
My opinion on scripting is simple: do it and you're worthless in my eyes.
No matter how you put it, scripting something that does an action 3 times for you on one press of a button is an unnatural way of enhancing your own abilities.
The script does NOT bhop for you, it just makes the jumping the same as the jumping in games such as Quake 3 or Unreal tournament. Try out the scripts yourself and see if it makes you bhop as fast as the more experienced bhoppers, you won't even come close.
Also, the 3jump script is just an alternative for using your mousewheel which achieves the same effect.
Scripts are not a problem in ns. I hope in ns2 if they do have bhopping, they'd implement the scripts into the game so it'll be easier for new players to pick up the skill, because hl2's jump is similar to hl1's jump.
ZOMG, devs built-in scriptzz
on topic:
Considering gameplay changes I'm rather interested in this one:
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We are changing this quite a bit. I shouldn't mention specifics until we know they're going to work, but aliens will probably not have to take over specific (and far away) hive rooms to gain technology. Territory will still be important, but the concept of artificial "hive rooms" will probably go away. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm curious what will be changed because the current concept is quite appealing, although it has its problems, of course, in comparison to marine tech-tree.
Maybe its just more emphasis on chambers and res towers which could also mean: unlock chambers from hives.
Please tell me why you feel this way.
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Don't get me wrong; I bhop and I use 3-jump for that.
But I think that it widens the gap between beginners and the more advanced players, which is already big enough in NS.
Beeing able to bind e.g. a 3-jump requires some skills from you. You have to know bhop exists, you have to understand the basics of the engine, you have to know how to manipulate files, etc.. Those skills may be related somehow to NS, but they are not part of the intended gameplay. (seeing as it is neither mentioned in the manual/autohelp messages, nor is there a menu option to bind 3-jump I assume that it is not part of the intended gameplay.)
So giving players an advantage in NS because of skills that are not part of the gameplay is hardly fair. After all NS is a FPS and not a "who can edit files the fastest" game.
@BOBDolol
Your assumption that any new player knows how to use scripts and also knows how to use those scripts for bhop is a bit far-fetched.
I think bhop should be in NS2, but as an official feature (including documentation) that can't be exploitet in any way.
Scripting is an artificial way of achieving something you can't do properly by yourself.
My opinion on scripting is simple: do it and you're worthless in my eyes.
No matter how you put it, scripting something that does an action 3 times for you on one press of a button is an unnatural way of enhancing your own abilities.
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In other words, if you have a mouse without mwheel and want to bhop, you're ish out of luck?
I just wanted to voice my opinion/worry that bhopping shouldnt be removed from the gameplay (and wallstrafing).
You're confusing knowledge with skill...
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Sorry for using the word skill in a non-gaming way.
What I meant is that:
In any FPS you need some abilities (= skills) to be good, those include being able to aim fast and accuratly, good reaction times, communication skills, knowledge of the weapons/maps/game mechanics, ...
To be able to create a script requires some skills from you too, but those are vastly different from the skills mentioned above. Those include being able to edit (=manipulate) files, using a search engine, reading in forums, ...
I think it is unfair that players gain an advantage by using skills that are not part of the intended gameplay. NS is about aim/movement/... and not about file editing/searching a forum/...
PS: there are competitions about "who can edit files the fastest" and those require different skills than a FPS
The topic, however, is a great subject to discuss for NS2. What abilities would you like to see carried over? Implemented? Not included? Changed?
No. In other words, don't use bunnyhop and press SPACE to jump like the rest 99% of the large gaming community.
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Alright let me add this last comment in, and it is also relevant to the topic.
<b>Jump scripts for half life 1 do not bunnyhop for you, they only emulate the jump methods in other games such as the Quake series. That is, when you press jump before you hit the ground, you'll jump again. You don't need to time the jump to the exact millisecond like you do in the half life engine. There are many games like this and this really shouldn't be an issue at all.</b> Now, if bunnyhopping is ever implemented into NS2, it would be cool and it'd make sense to make that type of jumping(quake style) the default in the first place so people won't have to use scripts in the first place.
Imo bunnyhopping has become a part of ns and it wouldn't feel the same without it. Making it more player friendly by implementing "scripts" would be the most logical course of action, I think everyone could agree on that.
If this thread continues down the already disputed path of scripts it's going to get locked fast. Forget about the moralities of scripting.
The topic, however, is a great subject to discuss for NS2. What abilities would you like to see carried over? Implemented? Not included? Changed?
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Can we bring it back to topic please - Im with digz.
Same thing with the bunnyhoping, it's sad to see a marine move faster than a full-celerated skull, this ruins the game and make less-talented players ( like me <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> ) anger and quit the game.
on a related note,i would love to see all the NS1 maps being remade into NS2 maps.
Bunny hopping I'm partial to. But the main reason I dislike it is it allows a skulk to basically attack a marine in a head on situation if he 'hones' his bunny hopping skill to a certain degree. Not that theres anything wrong with this, but it honestly takes away from the gameplay of the skulk - they shouldn't be attacking head on, they should be waiting on the ceiling/vent/corner/ditch to pop out and attack when players are least expecting it. So my #1 reason for removing bunny hopping is that it alters the gameplay of a 'class' in a way that is encouraged to be played in an opposite manner.
For balance reasons, make all the movement abilities weaker at 1 hive, but decent at 2 hives. At 3 hives, give them something extra, such as a damage component.
For example, at 1 hive, skulks could leap 66% of the distance they can now, at 2 hives they leap 100%, and at 3 hives, leap deals some damage (more than it does now).
For Onos, since they are expensive and have trouble outrunning marines unless they have celerity, allow them to run at 200% speed for 6 seconds (celerity shouldn't increase this sprint effect or it would make the upgrade mandatory - slap a rate of fire of once every 20 seconds on that) at 1 hive, 200% speed for 10 seconds at 2 hives, and 200% speed for 10 seconds + damage at 3 hives. Yes, it is pretty much the same as their current 4th ability, but avaiable at all times.
Lerks are fine in my opinion, since they have a pretty decent flight model.
Fades could use a 3rd hive blink which would allow them to blink straight past obstacles (all players and structures, not walls) and should they ever stop blinking right in the middle of a structure or player, /unstuck kicks in without the player's input.
Of course, if my idea were to come true, 4 lifeforms would need new abilities, but I still think it is a sweet idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Wallstrafing in my opinion is an exploit, although so is bhoping but its a loveable exploit and doesnt look totally retarded.
I dont know, I can see the preaching by those who cant bhop; "please dont put bhopping in" and then there are the peoples that can that are like me and desperatly want it to stay in.
However I was unaware that you can bhop on rines appart from in the readyroom.
I can bhop as an alien, not flawlessly, but I'm getting there. Most maps have halls which aren't bhop friendly (if not the entire map) and <u>I'd rather just have a system in place that can be used anywhere and it is skill-dependant as well, than a flawed "reward" for veteran players built on an engine bug.</u>
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I totally agree, well put.
Maybe the skulk has legs like a kangaroo. They are designed for jumping, not for walking.
Bhing should be enabled on aliens and disabled on rines.
Wallstrafing in my opinion is an exploit, although so is bhoping but its a loveable exploit and doesnt look totally retarded. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, unless the marines have some odd leg implants they wouldn't really move faster by jumping.
Plus I personally don't like the way bhoping is used by marines... It's a Rambo/E-peen feature for people who care more about their stats than the team, which lessens the <b>team play</b>. Same as with Wallstrafing. Good thing is the mappers can avoid the latter, at least a bit, by putting a lot of random stuff up on the "good" sploitwalls.
As for alien bhop... It would be good to keep it for skulks as it gives them more mobility. I'm unsure about Fades. In older versions I <i>needed</i> to bhop, but somehow that’s not the case now. Gorges <b>need</b> to jump around and be silly, but perhaps not gain any speed boost from doing so.
And Onos is just... no. If anything, jumping should slow 'em down. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Yeah, unless the marines have some odd leg implants they wouldn't really move faster by jumping.
Plus I personally don't like the way bhoping is used by marines... It's a Rambo/E-peen feature for people who care more about their stats than the team, which lessens the <b>team play</b>. Same as with Wallstrafing. Good thing is the mappers can avoid the latter, at least a bit, by putting a lot of random stuff up on the "good" sploitwalls.
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So it lessens the teamplay because it makes marines stronger? Because a lot of other things do that too. Marine bhopping helps when the marines are working as a team too, and you could say alien bhopping also lessens teamplay by strengthening an alien based on the player's individual skill.. so I don't really understand that argument.
but instead they said they wanted it in, but then but in BS... which is a pain but ppl still manage.
i wana add... what is someone supposed to do if they have higher ping? are they outa luck. thats the real reason a jump script came about, cause its impossible to time properly unless your ping is good.
im tired of the script debate... but the devs really added to the fire by supporting the things scripts do for you, but they add in BS and defaulted it to on... pft. i think they should have just took out the reason to USE a harmful script if they were against it.