FFS people... you SPAWN as something that can stick to walls.
A skulk can get above a marine on a hive, drop on him, and eat him. A lerk can fly to the desired level and shoot the marine, or eat him. A fade can blink up on top of the hive to gack him.
Only things i dont see having any real attack in this situation is the onos (since it's CQB only) and the gorge (which is only partially true... if he gets LOS, he can spit at the guy). The real problem is people IGNORING "your hive is under attack" in favor of doing things like chewing on the walls.
My main jest with this is that I understand the welder does insane damage. This was probably done to make vent clearing/closing possible. The welder should do a seperate kind of damage for structures and less direct damage. It seems its a better close range option than an LMG... Hey I don't know how much damage it does and how..its just the way i experienced it.. w00p!
<!--QuoteBegin--SrCumference+Nov 24 2002, 10:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SrCumference @ Nov 24 2002, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sender: There's a major difference here, all the commander needs to do is hop outta the chair and pop a round or two into the skulk and it's gone. There is no defense whatsoever for that skulk, there is, however, a plethora of things preventing that marine from being killed as easily. The comparison is very flawed.
About the whole jetpack thing: Jetpack = flying. Flying = Fly. Fly + spider = dead fly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I think it's a pretty good analogy. Both tactics are generally gutsy moves where you have a high chance of dying, but a also a very high payoff. Sure a commander can pop out of the CC, but a lurk can fly up to the marine and *chomp* *chomp*. Popping out of the CC is actually pretty dangerous (I know from experience). 1 marine vs. 1 Skulk is not that balanced a situation.
Now if the hitbox prevents the marine from taking damage that's another story. Then I would classify this as more of an exploit than a cheap tactic.
I dunno, I think what some of you forget is that a sure win = boring gameplay. I prefer games where I feel like I can still win no matter what the odds. Granted, if they have 3 hives you're pretty much going to die, but MAYBE you can jetpack weld that hive and MAYBE set up a siege base somewhere else. Those maybes are way more fun than "ok well just have to hole up in base and wait for the aliens to win". Anyways...
Is is just me or.. While he's out there welding 'n' stuff, he's having his commander dropping a truckload of medikits; each medikit is 2rp worth, plus the Commander's attention is focused on one small point on the map. What should rest of the alien team do? Moan their beloved hive, light the candles? Go out there and kick some marine a*ss! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
two problems: some hives there aren't enough stuff around the top to easily get there as a skulks without leap... and without stuff around splash is so far away that it does crap damage to the marine.
Some hives you can't even get on top of... but some are nearly impossible without flying. Its way too easy to jet past all defenses and land atop a lot of hives...
And the thing about killing the marines because the commander is spamming health kits... a turreted base with 10 other marines on defense isn't exactly going to die in 2 minutes because the commander is looking elsewhere.
Also, several hives are close enough to the ceiling that the marine hitbox when crouched problem comes up and skulks do jack.
How are you supposed to web the guy if you can't hit him? The only way I was damaging the guy was with minimal splash from rockets. I wouldn't have a problem if the little invisible skirt was removed so you could actually attack them with a ranged weapon...
I have to agree that the welder tactic can be exploited sometimes, but as there are enough counters (Skulks, Lerks, overrunning their base, in some cases Acid or Bile), I'm inclined to call it a viable tactic.
A little tip: Should you not hit him directely with the rocket, shoot at the ceiling and let the splashdamage do its work.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Nov 25 2002, 05:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Nov 25 2002, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A little tip: Should you not hit him directely with the rocket, shoot at the ceiling and let the splashdamage do its work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A little tip, his post said they tried hitting him with splash damage and he was taking about 4 damage from that.
On many of the maps, the marine is extremely hard to kill crounched on top of the hive. This is due to the hitbox bug, the way the hive obscures the marine from those above (both optically and physically) and the location of many of the hives (high above the ground). There are some hives that are nearly impossible to get on top of as anything but a lerk, and this marine with JP is likely to not only have health falling from his commander, he's likely to also be possessing an HMG so he's not exactly skulk-approachable. Welders do extremely high damage to buildings so you don't have very much time at all to figure out a way to kill this marine in his protected location before your hive is gone.
<!--QuoteBegin--TenSix+Nov 24 2002, 08:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TenSix @ Nov 24 2002, 08:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about if a Lurk could fly into your base and start chmping away at your CC while you could only hit him for a piddly 4 damage every clip? That would suck wouldnt it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The point is that jetpack tactic can be so easily defeated by a skulk or lerk..... Now if a lerk does what you describe that would be lame since there wouldn't be a way to defeat it.
I've been up against this tactic myself. It's extremely nasty and nearly impossible to defend against. You can only hope the marines don't have somebody skilled enough with a jetpack to whizz over all the defences.
It is possible in many (but unfortunately not all) cases to get an offencive turret angeled in such a way to fire up above the hive, but with the commander spamming health kits they can't do enough damage.
Hmm, I was up against a HMG/Jetpack marine. Welder/Jetpack marine is about half as cheap to produce and I bet the welder does 3x the damage.
BTW, if you think this tactic is easily defendable with skulks and lerks you are absolutely incorrect. They will do this to undefended hives and the hive goes down VERY FAST, in less than 90 seconds to a HMG. Probably 30 seconds with a welder. By the time you get there to defend it is too late.
Two possible fixes for this: 1. Make the hive damage marines who come in direct contact with it.
2. Place hives too close against the celing to get on top of.
Only problem is both solutions make it tough for the marines to try to melee the hive.
Perhaps this would be a better solution:
3. Make the medpack something that needs to be selected and used.
That way the commander can't just plop down infinite medpacks to keep the marine healed.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shrike30+Nov 25 2002, 05:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shrike30 @ Nov 25 2002, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->FFS people... you SPAWN as something that can stick to walls.
A skulk can get above a marine on a hive, drop on him, and eat him. A lerk can fly to the desired level and shoot the marine, or eat him. A fade can blink up on top of the hive to gack him.
Only things i dont see having any real attack in this situation is the onos (since it's CQB only) and the gorge (which is only partially true... if he gets LOS, he can spit at the guy). The real problem is people IGNORING "your hive is under attack" in favor of doing things like chewing on the walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More often than not a marine who was clever enough to get past all the defences and up on top of the hive will hear that lerk or skul coming, switch to their lmg/hmg and jet pack out the way before blowing it away. Which is what I do all the time it takes at least a fade or 2 skuls to oust me from the top of that hive.
If you try and blink up on top of a hive you get stuck so that don't work.
The whole point of using a welder in this tactic is not because it has no ammo it's because it's QUIET you can hear anything coming while you are welding unless they have the silence upgrade but who has that when they are attacking the marines base and have all 3 hives?
<!--QuoteBegin--Flak[50C]+Nov 25 2002, 03:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flak[50C] @ Nov 25 2002, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->two problems: some hives there aren't enough stuff around the top to easily get there as a skulks without leap...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you don't have leap, then you only have one hive. If you only have one hive, and they have jetpacks, you're probably in fairly deep trouble in the first place.
You said that he killed the hive with a welder. That takes time, a couple of mins at least. Now if your team was a bit smart, and you said there were lerks, the lerks would've just killed him. Umbra + bite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You said that he killed the hive with a welder. That takes time, a couple of mins at least. Now if your team was a bit smart, and you said there were lerks, the lerks would've just killed him. Umbra + bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've had a marine do it with a HMG. The commander would drop him ammo as well as health. If a Skulk or Lerk tried to go after him, he just guns them down.
Ummm Its a legit tactic to me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ... (I play aliien mostly) but it can be abused if you overuse it <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The part about the Hive dooing damage to marines who touch it ... is perfectly plausible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(if the Hive heals friendly stuff it should do some *cough *slight *cough* dmg to enemys that touch it)
Also why the welder ? ... does it to insane dmg to Hives ? O_o ..... I like shotty ... tons of DMG ... U can defend from skulks too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> >LEAP!> ?????????????????\???????????????????????/ ??????????????????\??<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->????/ ???????????????????(oOOOOOo) ???????????????????(oOOOOOo) <---- Hive "This is my hive, there are many like it but this one is MINE !!' ????????????????????\ooOOOoo/ ?????????????????????^^^^^^^
<!--QuoteBegin--_Superi0r_+Nov 25 2002, 02:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (_Superi0r_ @ Nov 25 2002, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also why the welder ? ... does it to insane dmg to Hives ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Welders do insane damage to anything, particularly buildings.
And if a marine is on top of the hive welding (I have seen this countless times, especially on Tanith), the skulks and lerks are pretty useless since the welder cuts through them like butter, and the skulks pretty much have to hump the crouching marine to get any damage on him (I despise fighting cheap, crouching, exploitive marines).
<!--QuoteBegin--Rabid Llama+Nov 25 2002, 02:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rabid Llama @ Nov 25 2002, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Flak[50C]+Nov 25 2002, 03:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flak[50C] @ Nov 25 2002, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->two problems: some hives there aren't enough stuff around the top to easily get there as a skulks without leap...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you don't have leap, then you only have one hive. If you only have one hive, and they have jetpacks, you're probably in fairly deep trouble in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well since they destroyed the second hive with JP its kinda hard to have leap <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ...
BECUASE OFFENSE CHAMBERS WONT STOP A GUY WITH JETPACK and once he gets ontop of that hive hes near impossible to kill due to the messed up hitboxes...
When attacking hives though, I go with hmg or shotgun. They require atleast one reload and well, they feel more fair. It's great joy to use this tactic to flip-flop a game where the aliens have 3 hives <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't see it as an exploit per se, as it's pretty easily counterable, then again, I've never had a marine do it on me when I'm alien.
<!--QuoteBegin--XCan+Nov 25 2002, 02:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Nov 25 2002, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You said that he killed the hive with a welder. That takes time, a couple of mins at least. Now if your team was a bit smart, and you said there were lerks, the lerks would've just killed him. Umbra + bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. Welder does insane damages, atleast as good as the HMG against buildings but without the reload downtimes, ammo requirements, slower moment speeds and higher cost. That marine only needs <45 seconds to kill that hive.
2. Apparently you haven't read anything that has been said about the hitbox bug? Let me help you: that marine is most of the time tougher than a HA. Not to mention you might not always have lerks within a 20 second range of any of your hives.
3. You can't use skulks on all maps because of the weird shape of the hive rooms, but those hitbox bugs would make it hell to do anything with a skulk in the second you're alive under that Evul welder anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sevendashseven+Nov 25 2002, 03:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sevendashseven @ Nov 25 2002, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see it as an exploit per se, as it's pretty easily counterable, then again, I've never had a marine do it on me when I'm alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd *love* to hear your ideas on how to counter a competent jetpacker marine or two. I've yet to find a way. Atleast the marines haven't *won* because of it yet, but that day will soon come I think. The only tactic that worked atleast most of the time was to keep a lerk at all 3 hives spamming spores into the vents. Not exactly friendly on the alien team which already has a hard time getting any more than n-2 players where n is the amount of marines.
Aliens, to counter this have movement chambers in every hive for teleporting quickly, fades and skulks can get him. We will have to see now that the cats out of bag if its an offset. Reminds me of Duke3d jetpack fights. Hey is that where the jetpack sound came from? sounds dang close.
<!--QuoteBegin--XCan+Nov 25 2002, 07:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ Nov 25 2002, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You said that he killed the hive with a welder. That takes time, a couple of mins at least. Now if your team was a bit smart, and you said there were lerks, the lerks would've just killed him. Umbra + bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Took me just over a minute to weld the hive to death, I timed it after the first time I did it to see. I was caught out the first time I welded a hive because it was infact dead but wouldn't die because I was still welding it lol once the fade got me with the acid rocket I died and so did the hive.
Umbra + bite vs Good marine + Welder = Marine wins. Umbra is useless against a welder
You all seem you be assuming that the marine attacking the hive with the welder is useless and would be chomped up by a lerk or a skul. The only time I have been taken out while welding a hive is by a fade and it's acid rockets everytime a skul or a lerk tried to get me it ended up as a messy stain on the wall.
The fact that a marine might be doing this would imply that he had to be good to get there in the first place especially if the hives are well defended, so a skul or a lerk going up there to take him out isn't a guaranteed way of removing the threat. Only a fade is.
so far the easiest hive to take out with this tactic is Ventilation on ns_caged. there are vents that lead directly to the hive with little or nothing stopping you.
and what is up with that unable to kill hive when being constantly attacked by welder? its annoying as hell!
Funny how nobody commented on USING A LERK TO SHOOT HIM WITH. Just evolve to lerk and shoot him, even with an endless supply of health kits he'll die if 3 lerks with adrenaline upgrade shoot nonstop at him. And if he flies away, well mission accomplished for the aliens...
<!--QuoteBegin--Flak[50C]+Nov 25 2002, 11:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flak[50C] @ Nov 25 2002, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you can't hit him from anywhere but above him, the skirt protects them from damage...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerks can fly...
Man, I do solo assaults on the hive ALL the time, with my marine team fully knowing what I'm doing. The commander sends a group one way to lure the fades and stuff away, while I jetpack in through the vents and assault the hive. More often than not I'm wielding an HMG and I start underneath the hive (the aliens NEVER have defenses that near the hive, or covering the vents), and put a clip into the hive. I then reload while flying up onto the hive, and proceed to rain fire from above.
The thing is, the aliens have so many ways to combat this. Keep the vents covered, send in the fades, lerks, skulks. I've been killed many times doing this, and I just fly back and do it again, until it dies. The one thing I don't do is crouch and use welder. I might try it sometime, but for some reason I feel that I do more damage with an HMG that is so close not a single bullet misses. (if an HMG at close range does more damage to a defensive tower or a resource tower, why would it do less damage to the hive than a welder? something to test out I guess).
And as for the people saying "How would you feel if a lerk could fly into your base and chomp your CC while you can only shoot it for 4dmg?" They can do that NOW. Fly into a base, over the turrets (even easier for the aliens, IMHO), get to the chair. With adrenaline, start chomping, when a marine comes near, put up some umbra, there 0 damage. Just like that marine on your hive. and THAT can be more devastating than losing a hive (if the commander isn't smart).
It seems people are upset when there are tactics that they aren't used to. When NS first came out, people said siege turrets were the worst thing in game. Now, people still complain sometimes, but most people learned how to adapt (don't let them put up siege). Now, they don't like jetpacks. SO, don't let them get to your hive.
Personally, I go for jetpacks over HA... Why? Because 4 marines with jetpacks can get ANYWHERE and do just about anything.
Comments
You might as well say 'I yell at people that evolve to Fade'.
It's a tactic, learn to deal with it, it's not like a single Jetpack marine can HOLD a hive, go skulk, munch on him and no problem.
A skulk can get above a marine on a hive, drop on him, and eat him.
A lerk can fly to the desired level and shoot the marine, or eat him.
A fade can blink up on top of the hive to gack him.
Only things i dont see having any real attack in this situation is the onos (since it's CQB only) and the gorge (which is only partially true... if he gets LOS, he can spit at the guy). The real problem is people IGNORING "your hive is under attack" in favor of doing things like chewing on the walls.
The welder should do a seperate kind of damage for structures and less direct damage. It seems its a better close range option than an LMG...
Hey I don't know how much damage it does and how..its just the way i experienced it..
w00p!
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
About the whole jetpack thing: Jetpack = flying. Flying = Fly. Fly + spider = dead fly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think it's a pretty good analogy. Both tactics are generally gutsy moves where you have a high chance of dying, but a also a very high payoff. Sure a commander can pop out of the CC, but a lurk can fly up to the marine and *chomp* *chomp*. Popping out of the CC is actually pretty dangerous (I know from experience). 1 marine vs. 1 Skulk is not that balanced a situation.
Now if the hitbox prevents the marine from taking damage that's another story. Then I would classify this as more of an exploit than a cheap tactic.
I dunno, I think what some of you forget is that a sure win = boring gameplay. I prefer games where I feel like I can still win no matter what the odds. Granted, if they have 3 hives you're pretty much going to die, but MAYBE you can jetpack weld that hive and MAYBE set up a siege base somewhere else. Those maybes are way more fun than "ok well just have to hole up in base and wait for the aliens to win". Anyways...
While he's out there welding 'n' stuff, he's having his commander dropping a truckload of medikits; each medikit is 2rp worth, plus the Commander's attention is focused on one small point on the map.
What should rest of the alien team do? Moan their beloved hive, light the candles?
Go out there and kick some marine a*ss! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some hives you can't even get on top of... but some are nearly impossible without flying. Its way too easy to jet past all defenses and land atop a lot of hives...
And the thing about killing the marines because the commander is spamming health kits... a turreted base with 10 other marines on defense isn't exactly going to die in 2 minutes because the commander is looking elsewhere.
Also, several hives are close enough to the ceiling that the marine hitbox when crouched problem comes up and skulks do jack.
How are you supposed to web the guy if you can't hit him? The only way I was damaging the guy was with minimal splash from rockets. I wouldn't have a problem if the little invisible skirt was removed so you could actually attack them with a ranged weapon...
Don't try to blame a valid tactice for your inadequacies.
A little tip: Should you not hit him directely with the rocket, shoot at the ceiling and let the splashdamage do its work.
A little tip, his post said they tried hitting him with splash damage and he was taking about 4 damage from that.
On many of the maps, the marine is extremely hard to kill crounched on top of the hive. This is due to the hitbox bug, the way the hive obscures the marine from those above (both optically and physically) and the location of many of the hives (high above the ground). There are some hives that are nearly impossible to get on top of as anything but a lerk, and this marine with JP is likely to not only have health falling from his commander, he's likely to also be possessing an HMG so he's not exactly skulk-approachable. Welders do extremely high damage to buildings so you don't have very much time at all to figure out a way to kill this marine in his protected location before your hive is gone.
The point is that jetpack tactic can be so easily defeated by a skulk or lerk..... Now if a lerk does what you describe that would be lame since there wouldn't be a way to defeat it.
It is possible in many (but unfortunately not all) cases to get an offencive turret angeled in such a way to fire up above the hive, but with the commander spamming health kits they can't do enough damage.
Hmm, I was up against a HMG/Jetpack marine. Welder/Jetpack marine is about half as cheap to produce and I bet the welder does 3x the damage.
BTW, if you think this tactic is easily defendable with skulks and lerks you are absolutely incorrect. They will do this to undefended hives and the hive goes down VERY FAST, in less than 90 seconds to a HMG. Probably 30 seconds with a welder. By the time you get there to defend it is too late.
Two possible fixes for this:
1. Make the hive damage marines who come in direct contact with it.
2. Place hives too close against the celing to get on top of.
Only problem is both solutions make it tough for the marines to try to melee the hive.
Perhaps this would be a better solution:
3. Make the medpack something that needs to be selected and used.
That way the commander can't just plop down infinite medpacks to keep the marine healed.
A skulk can get above a marine on a hive, drop on him, and eat him.
A lerk can fly to the desired level and shoot the marine, or eat him.
A fade can blink up on top of the hive to gack him.
Only things i dont see having any real attack in this situation is the onos (since it's CQB only) and the gorge (which is only partially true... if he gets LOS, he can spit at the guy). The real problem is people IGNORING "your hive is under attack" in favor of doing things like chewing on the walls.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More often than not a marine who was clever enough to get past all the defences and up on top of the hive will hear that lerk or skul coming, switch to their lmg/hmg and jet pack out the way before blowing it away. Which is what I do all the time it takes at least a fade or 2 skuls to oust me from the top of that hive.
If you try and blink up on top of a hive you get stuck so that don't work.
The whole point of using a welder in this tactic is not because it has no ammo it's because it's QUIET you can hear anything coming while you are welding unless they have the silence upgrade but who has that when they are attacking the marines base and have all 3 hives?
If you don't have leap, then you only have one hive. If you only have one hive, and they have jetpacks, you're probably in fairly deep trouble in the first place.
I've had a marine do it with a HMG. The commander would drop him ammo as well as health.
If a Skulk or Lerk tried to go after him, he just guns them down.
The part about the Hive dooing damage to marines who touch it ... is perfectly plausible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
(if the Hive heals friendly stuff it should do some *cough *slight *cough* dmg to enemys that touch it)
Also why the welder ? ... does it to insane dmg to Hives ?
O_o ..... I like shotty ... tons of DMG ... U can defend from skulks too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> >LEAP!>
?????????????????\???????????????????????/
??????????????????\??<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->????/
???????????????????(oOOOOOo)
???????????????????(oOOOOOo) <---- Hive "This is my hive, there are many like it but this one is MINE !!'
????????????????????\ooOOOoo/
?????????????????????^^^^^^^
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> *chuckle*
Welders do insane damage to anything, particularly buildings.
And if a marine is on top of the hive welding (I have seen this countless times, especially on Tanith), the skulks and lerks are pretty useless since the welder cuts through them like butter, and the skulks pretty much have to hump the crouching marine to get any damage on him (I despise fighting cheap, crouching, exploitive marines).
If you don't have leap, then you only have one hive. If you only have one hive, and they have jetpacks, you're probably in fairly deep trouble in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well since they destroyed the second hive with JP its kinda hard to have leap <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ...
BECUASE OFFENSE CHAMBERS WONT STOP A GUY WITH JETPACK and once he gets ontop of that hive hes near impossible to kill due to the messed up hitboxes...
When attacking hives though, I go with hmg or shotgun. They require atleast one reload and well, they feel more fair. It's great joy to use this tactic to flip-flop a game where the aliens have 3 hives <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't see it as an exploit per se, as it's pretty easily counterable, then again, I've never had a marine do it on me when I'm alien.
1. Welder does insane damages, atleast as good as the HMG against buildings but without the reload downtimes, ammo requirements, slower moment speeds and higher cost. That marine only needs <45 seconds to kill that hive.
2. Apparently you haven't read anything that has been said about the hitbox bug? Let me help you: that marine is most of the time tougher than a HA. Not to mention you might not always have lerks within a 20 second range of any of your hives.
3. You can't use skulks on all maps because of the weird shape of the hive rooms, but those hitbox bugs would make it hell to do anything with a skulk in the second you're alive under that Evul welder anyway.
I'd *love* to hear your ideas on how to counter a competent jetpacker marine or two. I've yet to find a way. Atleast the marines haven't *won* because of it yet, but that day will soon come I think. The only tactic that worked atleast most of the time was to keep a lerk at all 3 hives spamming spores into the vents. Not exactly friendly on the alien team which already has a hard time getting any more than n-2 players where n is the amount of marines.
Took me just over a minute to weld the hive to death, I timed it after the first time I did it to see. I was caught out the first time I welded a hive because it was infact dead but wouldn't die because I was still welding it lol once the fade got me with the acid rocket I died and so did the hive.
Umbra + bite vs Good marine + Welder = Marine wins. Umbra is useless against a welder
You all seem you be assuming that the marine attacking the hive with the welder is useless and would be chomped up by a lerk or a skul. The only time I have been taken out while welding a hive is by a fade and it's acid rockets everytime a skul or a lerk tried to get me it ended up as a messy stain on the wall.
The fact that a marine might be doing this would imply that he had to be good to get there in the first place especially if the hives are well defended, so a skul or a lerk going up there to take him out isn't a guaranteed way of removing the threat. Only a fade is.
and what is up with that unable to kill hive when being constantly attacked by welder? its annoying as hell!
Lerks can fly...
The thing is, the aliens have so many ways to combat this. Keep the vents covered, send in the fades, lerks, skulks. I've been killed many times doing this, and I just fly back and do it again, until it dies. The one thing I don't do is crouch and use welder. I might try it sometime, but for some reason I feel that I do more damage with an HMG that is so close not a single bullet misses. (if an HMG at close range does more damage to a defensive tower or a resource tower, why would it do less damage to the hive than a welder? something to test out I guess).
And as for the people saying "How would you feel if a lerk could fly into your base and chomp your CC while you can only shoot it for 4dmg?" They can do that NOW. Fly into a base, over the turrets (even easier for the aliens, IMHO), get to the chair. With adrenaline, start chomping, when a marine comes near, put up some umbra, there 0 damage. Just like that marine on your hive. and THAT can be more devastating than losing a hive (if the commander isn't smart).
It seems people are upset when there are tactics that they aren't used to. When NS first came out, people said siege turrets were the worst thing in game. Now, people still complain sometimes, but most people learned how to adapt (don't let them put up siege). Now, they don't like jetpacks. SO, don't let them get to your hive.
Personally, I go for jetpacks over HA... Why? Because 4 marines with jetpacks can get ANYWHERE and do just about anything.
Ravlen