<!--quoteo(post=1601594:date=Jan 25 2007, 04:28 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jan 25 2007, 04:28 AM) [snapback]1601594[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Even given the crazy cultural assumptions and sweeping generalisations you make, you still make many errors of increasing superlatives.
You start with opinion -> scientificy discipline -> vocation -> piety.
So by your reasoning, pretty much everyone is pious. It'd be hard to hold up your reasoning to a single living human and have them fail your 'acid test for piety'. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not that difficult. from wikipedia: Implicit atheism: "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it". Explicit atheism: "the absence of theistic belief due to a conscious rejection of it".
ill take you as an example; earlier you stated <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a devout Athiest who believes that people should stop relying on their imaginary friend before they hit double digit ages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this clearly falls into the latter category of explicit atheism. you consciously reject theism, therefore you have an opinion on it. from dictionary.com, religious: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with religion: a religious holiday. 2. imbued with or exhibiting religion; pious; devout; godly: a religious man. 3. scrupulously faithful; conscientious: religious care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm not trolling, i just find this an interesting subject. basically what i think is that humans are religious animals (if you will). karl marx: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> as long as there are people under the oppression of others, there will be religion. people need something to believe in. it doesnt necessarily have to be related to theism.
a baby may not believe in god, but he/she does believe in something. atheism is simply another religion, and the modern, western atheism that sprung from christianity during the enlightenment in the 18th century is in my opinion simply another form of christianity. at least explicit atheism is.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1601613:date=Jan 25 2007, 12:46 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jan 25 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]1601613[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Please point out where I pledge my allegiance to intelligent design, thankyouverymuch. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't claim you do. The point I made was that by giving it 'air time' along side science, subjecting them both to the same assumptions about method and purpose you have exhibited the primary purpose of the ID movement: to have itself on a public platform from which the general populace assume there is something substantial to their claims.
I really didn't assume you actually believed the stuff they spout, and didn't mean to cause offence.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> as long as there are people under the oppression of others, there will be religion. people need something to believe in. it doesnt necessarily have to be related to theism. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well a belief is not a religion. And more to the point, you still haven't demonstrated how atheists are christians.
I think a more apt generalisation anyway is that most athiests come from cultures where monotheism is the dominant form of religion.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1594855:date=Jan 4 2007, 02:59 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Jan 4 2007, 02:59 PM) [snapback]1594855[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> No one would even notice. In fact, you could skip saying it all together and almost no one would notice.
Little known fact: American citzens are never actually forced to say the pledge of allegiance. Its just something they teach the little kids to promote patriotism, but if you don't want to say it, all you have to do is be quiet while everyone else is saying it. Remember that lawsuit you were talking about earlier? That wasn't a lawsuit about his kid being forced to SAY the pledge, it was a lawsuit about his kid being forced to HEAR the pledge, which makes it sound much more frivolous.
Disclaimer: I believe Citizens are made to say some sort of pledge on one of 3 occasions--being sworn in to public office, being sworn in to the military, or a foreigner being sworn in to citizenship. However, since I have never done any of those things myself, I don't know WHAT pledge is required, and I don't think the Pledge of Allegiance is the one used. Maybe for new citizenship it is. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pledge of allegiance is not a required thing of school children, all you are required to do is stand due to the presence of the US flag, which is required at all times, not just in school. Also, in all US government swearings, it is not a require to include a phrase affirming belief in God. I've been an atheist throughout my teenage and (now) adult life, and when I joined the military I did not have to swear to god. I took an oath of duty, to say that I would do what I had already signed on paper. Swearing on a Bible is not a requirement, especially since an atheist doing it would mean little. Swearing on a Bible to me would be like crossing your fingers, it means nothing.
Tomekki I don't know what you're trying to say. It seems like either you're making up definitions of words then saying it to incite a discussion, or you're just wrong.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you have an opinion on whether there is or isnt a god then youre involved in theology, and if youre involved in theology then youre a religious person. and because its assumable that youve been raised in a western society with christian values (atheism is connected to pretty much just christianity), your piety lies with the christian god.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This just is really nonsensical. You're making the most ridiculously thin word associations and making large leaps which make no sense at all. Just because you think about questions doesn't mean you're involved in it. If someone thinks about the big bang, it doesn't make them a cosmologist. Atheists are not Christians. They do not believe in a God, it's really that simple.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a baby may not believe in god, but he/she does believe in something. atheism is simply another religion, and the modern, western atheism that sprung from christianity during the enlightenment in the 18th century is in my opinion simply another form of christianity. at least explicit atheism is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is the first sentence? What does a baby believe in? They believe in nothing, unless you twist the meaning of belief. Atheism is another religion? How? Asserting something doesn't make it true.
<!--quoteo(post=1601967:date=Jan 26 2007, 11:44 AM:name=TheAdj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheAdj @ Jan 26 2007, 11:44 AM) [snapback]1601967[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The pledge of allegiance is not a required thing of school children, all you are required to do is stand due to the presence of the US flag, which is required at all times, not just in school.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't even required to do that, according to the Supreme Court.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, in all US government swearings, it is not a require to include a phrase affirming belief in God. I've been an atheist throughout my teenage and (now) adult life, and when I joined the military I did not have to swear to god. I took an oath of duty, to say that I would do what I had already signed on paper. Swearing on a Bible is not a requirement, especially since an atheist doing it would mean little. Swearing on a Bible to me would be like crossing your fingers, it means nothing. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. And it'd also be illegal. "No religious test" is right there in the constitution.
Comments
Even given the crazy cultural assumptions and sweeping generalisations you make, you still make many errors of increasing superlatives.
You start with opinion -> scientificy discipline -> vocation -> piety.
So by your reasoning, pretty much everyone is pious. It'd be hard to hold up your reasoning to a single living human and have them fail your 'acid test for piety'.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not that difficult. from wikipedia:
Implicit atheism: "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it".
Explicit atheism: "the absence of theistic belief due to a conscious rejection of it".
ill take you as an example; earlier you stated
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a devout Athiest who believes that people should stop relying on their imaginary friend before they hit double digit ages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this clearly falls into the latter category of explicit atheism. you consciously reject theism, therefore you have an opinion on it.
from dictionary.com, religious:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with religion: a religious holiday.
2. imbued with or exhibiting religion; pious; devout; godly: a religious man.
3. scrupulously faithful; conscientious: religious care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm not trolling, i just find this an interesting subject. basically what i think is that humans are religious animals (if you will). karl marx:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as long as there are people under the oppression of others, there will be religion. people need something to believe in. it doesnt necessarily have to be related to theism.
a baby may not believe in god, but he/she does believe in something. atheism is simply another religion, and the modern, western atheism that sprung from christianity during the enlightenment in the 18th century is in my opinion simply another form of christianity. at least explicit atheism is.
Please point out where I pledge my allegiance to intelligent design, thankyouverymuch.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't claim you do. The point I made was that by giving it 'air time' along side science, subjecting them both to the same assumptions about method and purpose you have exhibited the primary purpose of the ID movement: to have itself on a public platform from which the general populace assume there is something substantial to their claims.
I really didn't assume you actually believed the stuff they spout, and didn't mean to cause offence.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
as long as there are people under the oppression of others, there will be religion. people need something to believe in. it doesnt necessarily have to be related to theism.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well a belief is not a religion. And more to the point, you still haven't demonstrated how atheists are christians.
I think a more apt generalisation anyway is that most athiests come from cultures where monotheism is the dominant form of religion.
I really like nadagast's quote.
No one would even notice. In fact, you could skip saying it all together and almost no one would notice.
Little known fact: American citzens are never actually forced to say the pledge of allegiance. Its just something they teach the little kids to promote patriotism, but if you don't want to say it, all you have to do is be quiet while everyone else is saying it. Remember that lawsuit you were talking about earlier? That wasn't a lawsuit about his kid being forced to SAY the pledge, it was a lawsuit about his kid being forced to HEAR the pledge, which makes it sound much more frivolous.
Disclaimer: I believe Citizens are made to say some sort of pledge on one of 3 occasions--being sworn in to public office, being sworn in to the military, or a foreigner being sworn in to citizenship. However, since I have never done any of those things myself, I don't know WHAT pledge is required, and I don't think the Pledge of Allegiance is the one used. Maybe for new citizenship it is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The pledge of allegiance is not a required thing of school children, all you are required to do is stand due to the presence of the US flag, which is required at all times, not just in school. Also, in all US government swearings, it is not a require to include a phrase affirming belief in God. I've been an atheist throughout my teenage and (now) adult life, and when I joined the military I did not have to swear to god. I took an oath of duty, to say that I would do what I had already signed on paper. Swearing on a Bible is not a requirement, especially since an atheist doing it would mean little. Swearing on a Bible to me would be like crossing your fingers, it means nothing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you have an opinion on whether there is or isnt a god then youre involved in theology, and if youre involved in theology then youre a religious person. and because its assumable that youve been raised in a western society with christian values (atheism is connected to pretty much just christianity), your piety lies with the christian god.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just is really nonsensical. You're making the most ridiculously thin word associations and making large leaps which make no sense at all.
Just because you think about questions doesn't mean you're involved in it. If someone thinks about the big bang, it doesn't make them a cosmologist.
Atheists are not Christians. They do not believe in a God, it's really that simple.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a baby may not believe in god, but he/she does believe in something. atheism is simply another religion, and the modern, western atheism that sprung from christianity during the enlightenment in the 18th century is in my opinion simply another form of christianity. at least explicit atheism is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is the first sentence? What does a baby believe in? They believe in nothing, unless you twist the meaning of belief. Atheism is another religion? How? Asserting something doesn't make it true.
You aren't even required to do that, according to the Supreme Court.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, in all US government swearings, it is not a require to include a phrase affirming belief in God. I've been an atheist throughout my teenage and (now) adult life, and when I joined the military I did not have to swear to god. I took an oath of duty, to say that I would do what I had already signed on paper. Swearing on a Bible is not a requirement, especially since an atheist doing it would mean little. Swearing on a Bible to me would be like crossing your fingers, it means nothing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. And it'd also be illegal. "No religious test" is right there in the constitution.