ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
So basically, we're back to 'Depends who is swinging it, and how many of them there are'. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
If we're going for the Fantasy 'I know roughly how to use everything' Weapons Master type, the general consensus seems to be 1 handed sword and Shield.
For example, if we're talking Group combat, suddenly the Roman Centurion is looking pretty tasty indeed. They ruled the known world against pretty much everything for quite a while, you know. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Yep but, depending on what time in the Roman Empire:
They had to march a huge distance all day and then set up fortifications every night they were on the move. They were often outnumbered. They had to fight alongside smelly mercenaries. Not literally alongside, but you know. They were notoriously pitiful against cavalry and archers. They lost all their shields and got slaughtered every time they walked through a jungle of rain for a week.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
Zig basicly has it.
The obsession with Katana is just an obsesion with Japanese culture.
The real key, as was described, is that at any period there were crumy swords and wonderful swords. If you want an awsome sword, just do some research on damascus steel swords. There is nearly as much obsession over them as there are over japanese swords.
Personaly? I wouldn't want to use a 'katana' (long,single edged sword). I would MUCH rather have a straight 2 edged sword with a good point for thrusting, and probably only about a 2 ft blade. Oh, yah, make it using MODERN forging techniques and alloys(aka MUCH stronger then anything talked about in this thread!). However I still would never even dream of trying to cut thru plate armour (pierce chianmail, sure), I would rather go for where there is no armour.
Oh, and on a note of 1H + Shield. It is rather good, but it is vry unwieldly, makes it hard to quickly block attacks comming from other areas, and most people get over dependent and confident on their shield.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
sorry stick, your late. That troll was made earlier, try again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--quoteo(post=1607127:date=Feb 16 2007, 05:14 AM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Feb 16 2007, 05:14 AM) [snapback]1607127[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You can have your modern forging techniques and alloys in your sword.
I'll have modern forging techniques and alloys in my gun, and we'll see who wins. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://encyclopedia.quickseek.com/images/Ffviii_squalls_gunblade.PNG" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
If I was made to choose between close combat weapons and had to face some other dude in plate armour I'd probably go for a dagger or mace. A mace is beautifully simple, just swing around and hope someone's head meets the business end of the mace. Almost no training required, opposed to the years you'd need to fight effectively with a sword or spear. Axes are almost as good, but dangerous when wielded in untrained hands (first hand experience on this, and I wasn't even trying to kill anyone).
Daggers are along the same line as maces. Lets face it, none of us, when faced in a situation like this has the skills or cool-headedness to actually parry an enemy strike, so best of all would be to rely on our innate monkey-jumping capabilities.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1607128:date=Feb 16 2007, 01:16 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Feb 16 2007, 01:16 PM) [snapback]1607128[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> sorry stick, your late. That troll was made earlier, try again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My troll was a slightly modified version.
I believe my point stands, though. If you're going to bring modern day technology into the proceedings, you may as well forget about the whole melee weaponary and go for projectiles. We should stick to their original methods.
Well, according to that essay Zig linked to, swords continued to evolve until the point where they became obsolete. Had they not become obsolete, they would certainly have continued to do so. There's no reason not to speak hypothetically about it. Trying to imagine how swords would have evolved if firearms hadn't stolen their thunder is a fun thought experiment.
The bit about those hook swords designed to get around shields was certainly interesting too.
<!--quoteo(post=1607184:date=Feb 16 2007, 12:10 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 16 2007, 12:10 PM) [snapback]1607184[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well, according to that essay Zig linked to, swords continued to evolve until the point where they became obsolete. Had they not become obsolete, they would certainly have continued to do so. There's no reason not to speak hypothetically about it. Trying to imagine how swords would have evolved if firearms hadn't stolen their thunder is a fun thought experiment.
The bit about those hook swords designed to get around shields was certainly interesting too. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, it was quite an interesting article. I do wish it had pics of the swords he was talking about as he went along though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
a quick google img search will generaly bring up exactly what you are lookign for <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<img src="http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/MartialArtsIQP/images/638_smallsword.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> smallsword <img src="http://www.ancientedge.com/images_products/146_big.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> simple cruciform sword <img src="http://www.thearma.org/essays/3hnds.jpeg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> great sword <img src="http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/images/pj_falchion.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> falchion <img src="http://www.stanleylondon.com/swordtrooper1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> cavalry saber one of the best lines in the article: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the most serious flaws of the curved saber was one that could have most easily been corrected. You see, most military sabers were never sharpened. They just had flats and no real edge. They made nasty surface wounds by splitting the flesh, but did not cut deeply. Had they been sharpened -- ah, then things would have been quite different. On the other hand, the thrust of a 40-inch blade at the end of an outstretched arm, urged along by 800 pounds of moving horse, provides a serious problem and certainly no easy answers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seeing all these posts and the stances taken I have to ask... what is the setting for these weapons we're meant to be choosing? As in, are we getting sent off to war or is this the general living angle I used? It's one thing to take an armoury to war, it's quite another to lug it about on a day to day basis just incase you get into a fight :o
That's my order of preference. I'm nowhere near strong enough to lug a huge freaking sword or lift a mace. Polearms are too situational. A bow for long-distance work (I'm actually a pretty good at archery), a Katana for simplicity and elegance, and a Bo for practicality.
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, a bow does require an amazing amount of strength to keep tension on the string.
<!--quoteo(post=1607259:date=Feb 17 2007, 10:02 AM:name=Haze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Haze @ Feb 17 2007, 10:02 AM) [snapback]1607259[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Well, a bow does require an amazing amount of strength to keep tension on the string. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those muscles get accustomed to drawing the string pretty easily. It takes a lot of all-over body strength to carry a huge freaking mace around all day. Not to mention actually swinging it without spinning like a top after missing.
<!--quoteo(post=1607315:date=Feb 16 2007, 10:13 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scythe @ Feb 16 2007, 10:13 PM) [snapback]1607315[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Those muscles get accustomed to drawing the string pretty easily. It takes a lot of all-over body strength to carry a huge freaking mace around all day. Not to mention actually swinging it without spinning like a top after missing.
--Scythe-- <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Touche', boy.
I want to use a viking sword. Because then, I have an excuse to grow a beard, and its the sword that looks the coolest. No fancy curves, just a straight blade - yum.
Has pretty much the same weaknesses as a polearm, but...Hey, it's a Shaolin Spade, great for going through large numbers of enemies from a great distance (as seen in the Ultimate Zombie Survival Guide)!
<!--quoteo(post=1607315:date=Feb 16 2007, 10:13 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scythe @ Feb 16 2007, 10:13 PM) [snapback]1607315[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Those muscles get accustomed to drawing the string pretty easily. It takes a lot of all-over body strength to carry a huge freaking mace around all day. Not to mention actually swinging it without spinning like a top after missing.
This thread has teetered on the edge of a flamewar a few times. Don't be silly, folks.
No matter where in time or space you see yourselves, never has there been a society when people wore armor all the time. To base any choice on field combat conditions is to base it on an exception of the norm so unusual that it generally had to be codified. Similiarily, it's a bit of a fallacy to assume sufficient space to wield weapons longer than your arms effectively.
Mastery of all edged weapons is something you have to aspire to. No matter whether it's an axe, a sword or a dagger, aligning the blade with the enemy in a heated combat situation is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Therefore, most of us would be very well advised to go for blunt weapons.
If I were to chose one weapon under the assumption that I can use it, I'd go with the dagger. It's concealable, it's highly deadly, if well constructed, it can pierce anything from bone up to steel, and there'll always be enough room to maneuver with it. Of course it requires initiative, but defensive fighting means prolonged fighting, and prolonged fighting means more time in which your enemy can be lucky.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
What's that extendy dagger that the guy in Assassin's Creed uses. I'm sure that must be used somewhere in reality (I saw it on tv once and this makes it real).
That is so cool. You're like "hey I'm unarmed" and then punch someone, and they have a 6 inch deep hole in their neck, and then you run away.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
But it's so freakin' awesome! People would back away just because of that fact; they're so dangerous to the user, yet I'm STILL using them, so I must be one hardcore assassin.
Plus, as you said, they look cool. Swinging an axe or a hammer around is fairly manly, but doesn't leave much to the imagination.
QuaunautThe longest seven days in history...Join Date: 2003-03-21Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1607521:date=Feb 17 2007, 02:58 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Feb 17 2007, 02:58 PM) [snapback]1607521[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> But it's so freakin' awesome! People would back away just because of that fact; they're so dangerous to the user, yet I'm STILL using them, so I must be one hardcore assassin.
Plus, as you said, they look cool. Swinging an axe or a hammer around is fairly manly, but doesn't leave much to the imagination. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They would be so completely ineffective in a fight, its ridiculous. The assassin's didn't use them to fight for that simple fact- they were good conceiled weapons, for if your enemy wasn't ready. But against someone you're really fighting against, even going bare-handed would be better.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I am a ninja. Therefore, I wouldn't be in a full on fight, I'd be sneaking up behind someone. Here is an image of me in my ninja uniform, striking a pose:
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--quoteo(post=1607521:date=Feb 17 2007, 02:58 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Feb 17 2007, 02:58 PM) [snapback]1607521[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Swinging an axe or a hammer around is fairly manly, but doesn't leave much to the imagination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you masturbating or trying to kill someone? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Comments
If we're going for the Fantasy 'I know roughly how to use everything' Weapons Master type, the general consensus seems to be 1 handed sword and Shield.
For example, if we're talking Group combat, suddenly the Roman Centurion is looking pretty tasty indeed. They ruled the known world against pretty much everything for quite a while, you know. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
- Shockwave
They had to march a huge distance all day and then set up fortifications every night they were on the move.
They were often outnumbered.
They had to fight alongside smelly mercenaries. Not literally alongside, but you know.
They were notoriously pitiful against cavalry and archers.
They lost all their shields and got slaughtered every time they walked through a jungle of rain for a week.
There's a lot more but I was never great at this.
The obsession with Katana is just an obsesion with Japanese culture.
The real key, as was described, is that at any period there were crumy swords and wonderful swords. If you want an awsome sword, just do some research on damascus steel swords. There is nearly as much obsession over them as there are over japanese swords.
Personaly? I wouldn't want to use a 'katana' (long,single edged sword). I would MUCH rather have a straight 2 edged sword with a good point for thrusting, and probably only about a 2 ft blade. Oh, yah, make it using MODERN forging techniques and alloys(aka MUCH stronger then anything talked about in this thread!). However I still would never even dream of trying to cut thru plate armour (pierce chianmail, sure), I would rather go for where there is no armour.
Oh, and on a note of 1H + Shield. It is rather good, but it is vry unwieldly, makes it hard to quickly block attacks comming from other areas, and most people get over dependent and confident on their shield.
I'll have modern forging techniques and alloys in my gun, and we'll see who wins.
You can have your modern forging techniques and alloys in your sword.
I'll have modern forging techniques and alloys in my gun, and we'll see who wins.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://encyclopedia.quickseek.com/images/Ffviii_squalls_gunblade.PNG" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Daggers are along the same line as maces. Lets face it, none of us, when faced in a situation like this has the skills or cool-headedness to actually parry an enemy strike, so best of all would be to rely on our innate monkey-jumping capabilities.
sorry stick, your late. That troll was made earlier, try again <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My troll was a slightly modified version.
I believe my point stands, though. If you're going to bring modern day technology into the proceedings, you may as well forget about the whole melee weaponary and go for projectiles. We should stick to their original methods.
In that case I probably would say Damascus Sword. Considerably better then anything else at the time (why, we still have no clue!)
However I still say we are just talking about straight up melee vs melee weapons.
The bit about those hook swords designed to get around shields was certainly interesting too.
Well, according to that essay Zig linked to, swords continued to evolve until the point where they became obsolete. Had they not become obsolete, they would certainly have continued to do so. There's no reason not to speak hypothetically about it. Trying to imagine how swords would have evolved if firearms hadn't stolen their thunder is a fun thought experiment.
The bit about those hook swords designed to get around shields was certainly interesting too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, it was quite an interesting article. I do wish it had pics of the swords he was talking about as he went along though <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->MASSIVE POST ALERT<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<img src="http://www.sword.cz/schiavona.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> Schiavona
<img src="http://www.a2armory.com/images/claymores/claymore-silver-armoury.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> two hand claymore
<img src="http://www.kb.nl/coop/geheugen/extra/tentoonstellingen/ROBNISA_nl/rapier.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> rapier
<img src="http://www.arscives.com/vevans/images/3.2-Viking-Sword.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> viking sword
<img src="http://www.jelldragon.com/images/specials/IMG_1565.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> viking sword with damascus blade
<img src="http://oriental-arms.co.il/photos/items/62/001162/ph-0.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> Shotel
<img src="http://www.fortecombat.com/hist%20full%20pics/scimfl.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> scimitar
<img src="http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/products/C000504_L.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> estoc
<img src="http://knifeoutlet.com/shop/products/pc1072.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> swept hilt rapier
<img src="http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/images/164detail.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> cavalier rapier
and part DOO
<img src="http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/MartialArtsIQP/images/638_smallsword.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> smallsword
<img src="http://www.ancientedge.com/images_products/146_big.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> simple cruciform sword
<img src="http://www.thearma.org/essays/3hnds.jpeg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> great sword
<img src="http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/images/pj_falchion.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> falchion
<img src="http://www.stanleylondon.com/swordtrooper1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> cavalry saber
one of the best lines in the article:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the most serious flaws of the curved saber was one that could have most easily been corrected. You see, most military sabers were never sharpened. They just had flats and no real edge. They made nasty surface wounds by splitting the flesh, but did not cut deeply. Had they been sharpened -- ah, then things would have been quite different. On the other hand, the thrust of a 40-inch blade at the end of an outstretched arm, urged along by 800 pounds of moving horse, provides a serious problem and certainly no easy answers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j149/cmcheval/artwork/drizzt1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Can I get a panther as well?
It's one thing to take an armoury to war, it's quite another to lug it about on a day to day basis just incase you get into a fight :o
Bow -> Katana -> Bo.
That's my order of preference. I'm nowhere near strong enough to lug a huge freaking sword or lift a mace. Polearms are too situational. A bow for long-distance work (I'm actually a pretty good at archery), a Katana for simplicity and elegance, and a Bo for practicality.
--Scythe--
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, a bow does require an amazing amount of strength to keep tension on the string.
Well, a bow does require an amazing amount of strength to keep tension on the string.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those muscles get accustomed to drawing the string pretty easily. It takes a lot of all-over body strength to carry a huge freaking mace around all day. Not to mention actually swinging it without spinning like a top after missing.
--Scythe--
Those muscles get accustomed to drawing the string pretty easily. It takes a lot of all-over body strength to carry a huge freaking mace around all day. Not to mention actually swinging it without spinning like a top after missing.
--Scythe--
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Touche', boy.
I want to use a viking sword. Because then, I have an excuse to grow a beard, and its the sword that looks the coolest. No fancy curves, just a straight blade - yum.
<img src="http://www.wle.com/media/W066.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Has pretty much the same weaknesses as a polearm, but...Hey, it's a Shaolin Spade, great for going through large numbers of enemies from a great distance (as seen in the Ultimate Zombie Survival Guide)!
Those muscles get accustomed to drawing the string pretty easily. It takes a lot of all-over body strength to carry a huge freaking mace around all day. Not to mention actually swinging it without spinning like a top after missing.
--Scythe--
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://www.mwart.com/images/pl/Maces__Flails_Flanged_Battle_Mace_A_M1739_910.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
mace, and no its not that heavy as you make it out to be.
Especially if you worship a deity that forbids bladed objects...
You could always make a sword-mace...
No matter where in time or space you see yourselves, never has there been a society when people wore armor all the time. To base any choice on field combat conditions is to base it on an exception of the norm so unusual that it generally had to be codified.
Similiarily, it's a bit of a fallacy to assume sufficient space to wield weapons longer than your arms effectively.
Mastery of all edged weapons is something you have to aspire to. No matter whether it's an axe, a sword or a dagger, aligning the blade with the enemy in a heated combat situation is a lot more difficult than you'd think. Therefore, most of us would be very well advised to go for blunt weapons.
If I were to chose one weapon under the assumption that I can use it, I'd go with the dagger. It's concealable, it's highly deadly, if well constructed, it can pierce anything from bone up to steel, and there'll always be enough room to maneuver with it. Of course it requires initiative, but defensive fighting means prolonged fighting, and prolonged fighting means more time in which your enemy can be lucky.
That is so cool. You're like "hey I'm unarmed" and then punch someone, and they have a 6 inch deep hole in their neck, and then you run away.
Plus, as you said, they look cool. Swinging an axe or a hammer around is fairly manly, but doesn't leave much to the imagination.
But it's so freakin' awesome! People would back away just because of that fact; they're so dangerous to the user, yet I'm STILL using them, so I must be one hardcore assassin.
Plus, as you said, they look cool. Swinging an axe or a hammer around is fairly manly, but doesn't leave much to the imagination.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They would be so completely ineffective in a fight, its ridiculous. The assassin's didn't use them to fight for that simple fact- they were good conceiled weapons, for if your enemy wasn't ready. But against someone you're really fighting against, even going bare-handed would be better.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/X_Stickman/Stuff/ninja.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Are you masturbating or trying to kill someone? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />