ns_nothing feedback
MrBen
ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
ns_eclipse, ns_veil caretaker Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8575Members
<div class="IPBDescription">ideas, suggestions etc</div>Now I know 3.2 doesn't actually have any changes to ns_nothing, I'm sorry about this but I got caught up with sorting ns_veil and ns_eclipse with what I hope will be the final batch of changes to the map (I've recieved no feedback to suggest anything further is needed). So with that in mind I'll be turning my attention to ns_nothing to address the bugs and any problems with the map for (hopefully) future versions.
So I'd like to hear your suggestions on what would improve ns_nothing and make it a more popular map in the cycle.
<b>Todo list.</b>
1) Fix elevators so they can't be stopped by pressing the button again.
2) Fix the platform in generator/remove it because it's stupid.
3) Delete redroom.
4) Modify lifts so they're "ns_hera" style - offering a drop down with zero damage and a gap underneath so you can't get insta gibbed by the damage I'm going to add to stop you OC'ing the lift shaft
<b>Potential</b>
1) Rework corridors and rooms around powersilo.
2) Rework viaduct (I like bigD's suggestion 10+ points to you)
So I'd like to hear your suggestions on what would improve ns_nothing and make it a more popular map in the cycle.
<b>Todo list.</b>
1) Fix elevators so they can't be stopped by pressing the button again.
2) Fix the platform in generator/remove it because it's stupid.
3) Delete redroom.
4) Modify lifts so they're "ns_hera" style - offering a drop down with zero damage and a gap underneath so you can't get insta gibbed by the damage I'm going to add to stop you OC'ing the lift shaft
<b>Potential</b>
1) Rework corridors and rooms around powersilo.
2) Rework viaduct (I like bigD's suggestion 10+ points to you)
Comments
If you have to keep the elevators at least fix the bug (feature?) where triggering a button will stop a moving elevator (gg peach in fi vs uk).
I do agree that the above mentioned bug can be annoying.
in my memory it hasnt been changed much.
this classic map is fine the way it is so just let it be.
I suggest that make a drop next to this elevator so that you can jump directly to the bottom (but it would still hurt you) if you are in a hurry and can't use the elevator (which would be next to the drop).
- Garo
Add some more vents into generator from ominous\via access west.
But I can't deny the number of people that loved that "flat" version of nothing someone made (that I thought was horrid. Ugly. Just... wrong.)
So I came up with some ideas back then, of a sort of compromise. No quick fixes here, but I think they'd be worthy of consideration. (I'm sure you're aware of the situation Ben, but I'm explaining myself as best I can for everyone anyway) Honestly, I haven't played Nothing during 3.2 (never wins a vote. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />) but I suspect it'll play the same as it is right now.
<b>Elevators:</b> The biggest problem I have is that they are <i>major</i> choke points. Damned if I don't love'em though. Don't rip them all out just willy nilly though. Unlike ye olde rotating door, I think they can be fixed.
Look at the elevator in ns_hera going to maintence corridor from marine start. This is a great design for an elevator in this game. It's easily bypassable for fleeing aliens. You can't get killed underneath it. And it moves fairly quickley. The other thing is you don't take <i>too</i> much damage jumping down to it should you not want to wait for it to come up. So, I propose making the elevators shafts shorter, so that falling does minimal, if any, damage. Heck, you use ladders just right, marines that know what they're doing could leap down and take no damage that way. Do'em in such a way as to have the better marines able to "leap" to the ladder, breaking his fall, and hardly slowing them. (Lets the jaded HATEHATESOSLOWHATEHATE players move faster through the map.)
Here's an idea to complement the bypassable elevators: The double ladder in origin let a marine "wall jump" down which was fun (for me anyway <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), but their location was way too critical being the only exit for onii into a double res...
Also, blocking should become a non-issue with ways around the elevator (that even an onos can fit into).
<b>Choke points:</b> It's a <i>long</i> walk for a gorge to get from one hive to another. Cargo is incredibly painful to get to. What's needed is a way to bypass those elevators. I'd turn most of that vent from via to cargo into a hallway, but have the last ways divert into the areas into the "rooms with things" area, with a short vent still leading into cargo. (See my awesome photoshop skillz below) You see that yellow line I drew? That's seperating the "upstairs/downstairs". Many a game has been a stalemate of marines holding upstairs (including cargo) and the aliens down. Onii are useless due to the elevators. Fades get trapped in the elevators. (I'm generalizing here, I'm sure someone with some superstar strat will correct me, but bear with me)
The new route from cargo to via would break this. No elevator over there. All of a sudden, aliens can get three hives.
<b>Via:</b> Ditch the ladders. Ramps down to the bottom would be great. Some sort of pillar in the middle of the floor for cover would be great too. This hive is spawn camp heaven as is. And the super long view on the floor above the hive... some sort of pillar there would be excellent so that critters aren't getting shot as they try to go around the corner to try to flank a siege. Redroom... make that a plain vent and not a siegeable location. Maybe lower the roof a bunch too, it's a very jp friendly room. (Lower it "around" the cat walk up there maybe? Make it less JP friendly by forcing them into a tight space that way... I dunno.)
<b>Power Silo: </b> The biggest issue I have with this hive is the long straight hallways leading into it. No vents into those hallways from PS means you gotta take'em face on, or take the long route around (through TWO elevators!) to try to flank'em. So you end up throwing you're bodies against them over and over again. I'd really like to see some vents, maybe one leading out of the roof area of ps down to the corner from silo access towards foreboding? This give some room to siege from and not get biled on, but forces marines to check their rear more than once in a blue moon. This vent would allow an alien to get on the roof too, because god knows, they lock that hive down, it's a pain to break. Being able to start a hive and have a movement rush in would be awesome.
That's all I can think of for now. Just some ideas to chew on.
Here's a couple pictures to illustrate my ideas.
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/via.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
A possible layout for via hive.
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/nothing.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Pink = new vent
Green = new hallway
Yellow line = the current split between the halves of the map.
<b>Notes about the vent suggestions here:</b> The new one leading to via from silo north would be accessible by gorge from via but come out above the ground, hence the vent is "one way" like the vent from ps side to via below it. (The idea anyway)
The two leading out of foreboding I just kinda threw on the table as ideas to make foreboding... less foreboding if you will. When you're over in foreboding and "OMG VIA IS IN TROUBLE!" it would make for a bit of a shortcut.
Discuss!
(Also: Thanks Ben for taking this challenge on!)
- Power Silo slightly bigger and remove the acid or whatever from it.
- Remove the ladders from Viaduct and add a ramp instead. Maybe make it slightly smaller too, so Onos don't get beat up so bad. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Lastly, a vent from Ominous Kismet hallway into Generator Room would be nice. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Even with the problems it's still a fantastic map, I could play it all day <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
So far with nothing the biggest problem I've seen is what happens when aliens dont control cargo. The game seems to always turn into a variation of topside lockdown. Marines run to generator and cargo, get a pg in generator and cargo, have some ninjas annoying them through via east to viaduct, a couple head towards foreboding and mess with that res node.
Eventually if things dont go well for marines at this point and aliens can hold their territory and push out to via marines can still easily seige viaduct west and ominous rt's from the same tf location in generator killing 2 alien res nodes, if you keep generator you keep the left side of the map.
If you're feeling paranoid get a pg up in quad life area with a tf there and you lock down the top right side of the map, send a few marines down quad elevator with shotties and that res node is history, as long as you have motion tracking you can easily keep track of what's going on up top, if any aliens are trying to make it through the vent from via west or coming up the elevator in intimidation.
It just turns into a tech up/push on via east since the whole area has already been seiged/then seige via/take your time and walk to ps and tear down the last hive.
So yeah, too much emphasis put on generator. Also whoever was mentioning the acid in ps, can we get a ladder in there or something, seems like every long game I see on this map at least 1-2 ono manage to movement to ps only to be trapped in the acid and screaming for a gorge to make an mc for them to gtfo.
The RT near cargo has to go. It's too close to the hive. That makes it double res already. Move that to the painted corridor area to make the right side more desirable.
Powersilo just has too many long open hallways meaning it's perfect for guns. You need some different elevations, walls and turns. Same with ventilation. It's just so open, so add some pillars or something.
Red room is just an unnecessary bother that really doesn't need to be there. I mean if the other hives don't have a place like RR, vent could live without it.
I like BigD's change with the new path between vent and cargo besides gen and that crappy cargo vent that takes forever to go through.
The fewer ladders and elevators the better. Perhaps that's why eclipse and veil are the most popular maps.
More seriously tho:
I think you should add more weldables or some activity to the map to make it more interesting. 1 weldable makes me sad <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I think powersilo is a little to open, atleast with those places up top where the jps can go and have an easy time taking the hive down. You should make those places up there more easily accessible, so a 1 hive alien team stands a chance for a little defense.
Lastly i think the rt position is a little unfair because the cargo side has quite a few more rts than the powersilo side within easy reach. Same thing with via hive being far, but its not as big of a problem for me.
Besides that, I love the map. I have to admit i loved that rt in docking wing, so many memories of people falling off (me in particular) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. I also really really love the pits, I'm weird like that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
if you get rid of the pit i will never play it again.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for <i>truth.</i> Hell, bring back the pit-o-doom in generator I say! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
it has ever been a JP friendly map, please don't narrow it.
Besides BigD's suggested changes are ok. But I don't like the idea to lower the via ceiling nor removing the acid in powersilo.
How do people feel about this changelog? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<b>Version on my PC (not complete)</b>
1) No lifts.
2) No miasma walkway, no docking room 1, no redroom, no route to cargo from docking room one, no route to quad lift from marine spawn, no stupid corridors around powersilo.
3) Marine spawn is now in the same place as Miasma
3i) One route goes to generator and cargo.
3ii) One route goes to intimidation and onto powersilo.
4) Powersilo and surrounding areas reworked. Powersilo no longer a straight through path, the other exit at 90degrees to where it was connecting with corridor which has the vent to viaduct. Other exit leads to what will be a reworked forboading.
<a href="http://www.omgW" target="_blank">http://www.omgW</a> T Fns.co.uk/layout.jpg
Nice one swear filter means I can't just show you the image :]
Otherwise bigD's suggestions look good, imho.
And I vote yes for ladders or something else in ps to get out of the acid.
The PS changes seem to be good, but the map has gotten a lot smaller. I'm not sure how much smaller you should make it; nothing beeing so big was one of the things that made is nothing, but also one of it's main game-play annoyances.
Good suggestions. See current todo list in first post.
How do people feel about this changelog? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<b>) No lifts.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please don't remove the lifts. In overall, I don't like the way how many mapmakers keep removing weldables, lifts etc. In my opinion, NS maps should be large or huge, complex mazes with full of interesting stuff. Removing lifts isn't a good thing. Please keep them. Add free drop zones next to the lifts so that onos can jump down fast. Lifts encourage marines to quickly gather and enter the lift all the same time, which is very good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
2) No miasma walkway, no docking room 1, no redroom, no route to cargo from docking room one, no route to quad lift from marine spawn, no stupid corridors around powersilo.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- I don't see why Miasma walkway should be removed, I don't have any problems with it.
- Why remove redroom? It's quite uncommon to use redroom for siegeing, but the knowledge that it is possible, adds a nice feeling and pressure to the alien team, and a small hope for marines. Removing redroom just makes the map simplier (see my first point).
- I don't have problems with removing powersilo corridors, just know that it's not that hard for aliens to stop marines there. I have lost many times as marines in those places.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
3) Marine spawn is now in the same place as Miasma
3i) One route goes to generator and cargo.
3ii) One route goes to intimidation and onto powersilo.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have made your layout much smaller than the old one? Why is that?
Marines have phase gate technology for a good reason: The maps are large and they should remain large. Aliens are fast and have no problems travelling big distances.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
4) Powersilo and surrounding areas reworked. Powersilo no longer a straight through path, the other exit at 90degrees to where it was connecting with corridor which has the vent to viaduct. Other exit leads to what will be a reworked forboading.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good.
Overall, I think you are simplifying Nothing way too much. Hopefully I can make you to change your mind on this issue =)
- Garo
I'm confident that the new elevators and that extra hallway alone would make it feel smaller. And if the via run is too long for people, those hallways leading into it could be shortened, I'm sure. The biggest reason the map feels "big" is that it's not overly connected. You get to foreboding, for example and you're stuck going to powersilo from there and half way back to marine start getting to ominous. I wonder, given what you've done with foreboding so far, if it wouldn't be possible to put a route from there, into intimidation area? Allowing you to bypass if you need it. (Sort of what I was getting at with my vent suggestion previously.) Plus, this would balance a new route to cargo from via. (So that power doesn't become the new cargo!)
On the other hand, it would have better "node balance", ie right now miasma is the only marine friendly node. This was something I thought about for my previous post, but couldn't quite figure out any ideas for.
Okay, Via has two nodes close to it, cargo has one that is too close to it and powersilo has one node close to it that is always getting killed by marines. That sound like a reasonable summary? Okay based on those assumptions, here's an idea:
<b>Move the Ominous Kisment node closer to powersilo</b>. I think a good spot would be in that little nook above the "n" in "intimidation" in my layout above. This seperates this node from the via west node better, giving it more to powersilo.
<b>The venilation node by cargo</b>, put it on the other side of that wall towards cargo, maybe create a little nook down by that door in there, where it ramps up to that cargo section. This puts it that much farther from cargo. (Or a bit south towards Threshold too, that corner would be a good spot maybe?)
And to prevent a double node to form again... <b>delete generator node</b>. This will give us a total of 9 nodes. Same as say, eclipse. Plus, it'll balance the nodes from each side of the map better.
<b>Put the miasma node down by the ladder</b>. (Heck, could that be a ramp instead anyway?)
If making the map smaller is your goal, another idea might be to move docking(and miasma)->ms->pipe room north, shortening the North/South hallways in threshold, painted cooridor and north of miasma. Another possibilty could be too move the exit from marine start to pipe room farther north, and shorten the north/south length of piperoom to match. (As that's the long route to get anywhere, I think.)
I've updated that layout to include this:
<img src="http://bigdxlt.googlepages.com/nothing2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Orange being the nodes. (Question mark is another possibility to move that node... somewhere in that area anyway.)
Note the route out of ms, and area all being pushed upwards.
(Missing is a route from foreboding to intimidation, though it would likely fit better on your current layout of that area anyway.)
Does this look viable, or should there be nodes immediately to the left and right of marine start? I'm thinking this is sort of like eclipse this way in that SAA is the marine node, and they have to push out further to get the other nodes.
Edit: In regards to moving the ominous node, just realized that if a route from there to where foreboding is in your changes so far, that might make for a semi-double node there, so that particular spot might not be best, but somewhere in that area anyway.
And a way from Via to Cargo without moving through Generator would be nice.
Powersilo should be changed too since its very bad for the aliens atm.
I would really like to see the future nothing map keeping the two levels it has at the moment since these two levels make the map interesting in my point of view. But without those annoying elevators...
<b>Version on my PC (not complete)</b>
1) No lifts.
2) No miasma walkway, no docking room 1, no redroom, no route to cargo from docking room one, no route to quad lift from marine spawn, no stupid corridors around powersilo.
3) Marine spawn is now in the same place as Miasma
3i) One route goes to generator and cargo.
3ii) One route goes to intimidation and onto powersilo.
4) Powersilo and surrounding areas reworked. Powersilo no longer a straight through path, the other exit at 90degrees to where it was connecting with corridor which has the vent to viaduct. Other exit leads to what will be a reworked forboading.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
only 1 way leading to cargo is bad, figure out a way to add another corridor that leads there. maybe comm hub <-> west via access i dunno. edit: nevermind, i just remembered satcomm on tanith is pretty much the precedent that proves it doesnt matter if you leave it like that
move ominous node to the bottom end of via access east and make some nice little alcove for it
to be honest i have no idea what the run times from ms to the supposedly alien nodes are in this version. looking at the hammer pic it just seems that theyre really too low
It's a top down picture of the grid in hammer... How does it feel like anything, you doofus.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it looks like a different map, that's why I said it. No need to be calling me silly names. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
As for the lifts though, I think they should be kept because they make great little chokes for OC walling. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
As for the lifts though, I think they should be kept because they make great little chokes for OC walling. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah. thats one of the obvious reasons why they (the lifts) really have to go
The map will still be nothing if I decide to go through with this and complete this demo version. It's popularity might rise above nothing too, which would be a lovely bonus for all concerned as well.