<!--quoteo(post=1611763:date=Mar 6 2007, 03:10 AM:name=stupidthi3f)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stupidthi3f @ Mar 6 2007, 03:10 AM) [snapback]1611763[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm quitting NS. Aliens are nerfed especially Fades. Rines have the upperhand now. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you quitting because Fades don't have kill ratio of 100/1 like before? I played 4-5 games yesterday (my free day) and aliens won 3 times.
<!--quoteo(post=1611797:date=Mar 6 2007, 05:34 AM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 6 2007, 05:34 AM) [snapback]1611797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's not worth posting a point by point to developers who don't listen to the community and instead balance the game towards the vocal minority. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, perhaps if you said something, you'd be heard from. Vocal minority? If I were trying to balance the game, I'd rather listen to that than a silent majority. Don't go complaining after the deal is done.
I really like beta 2 so far, but I havent played anything bigger then 10vs10 yet.
Still hoping for a scalable alien res system... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I notice that fades die more often, which is in my opinion good, but the public seems to think different. I'd suggest a drop in res cost to go fade (They die more often) or a slight nerf to the heavier weapons of the marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1611797:date=Mar 6 2007, 02:34 PM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 6 2007, 02:34 PM) [snapback]1611797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's not worth posting a point by point to developers who don't listen to the community and instead balance the game towards the vocal minority. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... Yet you decide to join these forums for the sole purpose of whining, and complaining how the new release sucks. Not only you do that, you do so in an offensive manner, and don't hesitate to insult those who disagree with your opinion without even bothering to care about what they have to say.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You know what changed in the LMG marine vs Skulk battle between 3.1 and 3.2?
Thats right, absolutely nothing! Don't complain about how 3.2 makes skulks too weak, because it didnt change skulks at all. Not in the slightest!
And if your being approached by a Lerk or a Fade in that large hive, you're still dead, so I don't really see what you're complaining about. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did i say marins LMG was changed ? no. I just say, it seems more easy to kill a skulk. Maybee some lag problems have been solved (i use the same servers same this same that etc.). And now you need less bullets to kill... (it seems).
The lerk... well, i don't remember killing so many lerk+cele since the 3.2.0 came out. In fact i think i killed (not a lucky shot) more lerk+cele in 3.2.0 than i did in 3.1.3 so far... Big lucky shot on 3.13. I tend to adopt the "hide in vent" behavior when i lerk.
Fade... with focus... maybe... But he's got a hard time before i die.
<!--quoteo(post=1611319:date=Mar 4 2007, 05:44 PM:name=Cxwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Mar 4 2007, 05:44 PM) [snapback]1611319[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some people just like complaining about anything that hurts their favorite play style. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok kero, in the next version, they can make it so that commanders have no access to the map, because it's "overpowered". Obviously no one should complain about it because they enjoyed using the map. After all, games aren't about having fun, that would be silly.
<!--quoteo(post=1611665:date=Mar 5 2007, 10:08 PM:name=Sarisel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 5 2007, 10:08 PM) [snapback]1611665[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's called venting - something that happens frequently when there isn't an official channel of communication between developers and players. The idea should be to actively participate in a balance feedback thread, possibly making sub-threads to address certain points of grievance. Instead, what is happening is that a thread gets dropped and it seems like a place to drop your load of frustration since nobody that matters is listening anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they would listen more if there was less whining and more professional-like problem solving. Numbers would be good too.
ie: "skulks suck because they slow omg gg ns" versus "I feel skulks need a boost of 50 extra units per sec and here's why: [...] Take a look at K:D ratios for these games from every 5 min time in these screenshots from multiple games on multiple servers. (names, times, and dates are listed)"
<!--quoteo(post=1611797:date=Mar 6 2007, 08:34 AM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 6 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]1611797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> It's not worth posting a point by point to developers who don't listen to the community and instead balance the game towards the vocal minority. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, if your name is the same here as the guy I remember from in-game: you always play combat and on servers with ExtraLevels 3 that is <i>poorly</i> balanced. To the late game. A situation where marines can basically spawn camp via Uranium Ammo grenade spam. Not to mention most alien players are deaf it seems and feed marines early. Not enough early lerks or people who are actually good as xenocide.
I still think MT is the biggest problem for combat, but that's another thread/topic...
<!--quoteo(post=1611836:date=Mar 6 2007, 11:20 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 6 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]1611836[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Heh... I didn't see a single big server balance complainment during the beta testing. Somehow it seems people moved to 3.2 and judged it in a day. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know... In fact, most people from in-game I've talked to have had far more praise for 3.2 than complaints. Fades not sticking to ladders and onii getting knockback really help. It seems as if it's only combat players that are complaining.
<!--quoteo(post=1611852:date=Mar 6 2007, 12:19 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cereal_KillR @ Mar 6 2007, 12:19 PM) [snapback]1611852[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> ... Yet you decide to join these forums for the sole purpose of whining, and complaining how the new release sucks. Not only you do that, you do so in an offensive manner, and don't hesitate to insult those who disagree with your opinion without even bothering to care about what they have to say. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
Remember also that ExtraLevels 3 is NOT balance, especially how it is done on most servers. Most of your server admins SUCK at balancing. In fact they probably suck and blow AT THE SAME TIME at balancing. And yet people vent at the developers instead?
<!--quoteo(post=1611867:date=Mar 6 2007, 10:53 PM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 6 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]1611867[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I do it in an offensive manner because I am utterly ###### off that this game is going down the tubes. The community was already shrinking immensely with some few last bastions left. One more nail into the coffin... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're trying to justify yourself? I don't want to feel like I need to teach you something, but if you ever want to be taken seriously, you need to be polite to your (esteemed) opponent. If you can't communicate without relying on insults and harsh language, how do you expect people to listen to you and actually care about what you're saying?
It's not hard to say "I believe that the rate of fire on pistols is much too high. It was never meant to be a railgun, but a sidearm" instead of "Pistol whipping is really ish" and people might actually acknowledge the former, not the latter. Same goes with fading: "I think fades should be the bread and butter of alien play. Currently, they die too fast due to their low blink acceleration. As such, the fade dies much too quickly and cannot compete with heavy marine weaponry, especially in large games." instead of "Fades are now crap, bring back the old blink"
(For the record, yes I think pistols should be sidearms and nothing more, and no I don't think fades should return to their one-man army status they had in 3.1)
<!--quoteo(post=1611865:date=Mar 6 2007, 03:44 PM:name=Harrower)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harrower @ Mar 6 2007, 03:44 PM) [snapback]1611865[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ok kero, in the next version, they can make it so that commanders have no access to the map, because it's "overpowered". Obviously no one should complain about it because they enjoyed using the map. After all, games aren't about having fun, that would be silly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're giving yourself away by using my other name. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
But you're suggesting that the devs are fundamentally changing the way Fades work or something. They aren't. They are simply not doing that. What they are doing is threatening a particular play-style of <i>playing</i> fades and lerks, and people who liked the old play-styles are complaining, not because the old play-styles were better, but just because thats what they were used to.
My own favorite play style has been obliterated numerous times over the evolution of NS. But rather than spend all day complaining, I learned a new play style. The game is constantly evolving, which is good. That keeps it fresh and entertaining. If I was still playing version 2.01 today, I'd probably be bored of it by now, even though I thought it was great at the time. But the game has improved since then, even though I've had to give up my own favorite play-style a few times to get there.
Anyone else think this fin-a-wang guy is basically, nothing more than oxygen thief?
I'm not even sure what reason I have to read your posts, let alone consider your opinion valid and well thought out, you offer zero evidence or experience to support your claims. There's trolling like me because it's funny and then there's being a troll by accident because you're too stupid to actually articulate your opinions beyond a weak verbal assualt on whoever you feel victimised by, and that'd be everyone by the sounds of it. Want people to think you're anything more than a punch line? Want more than one randomer to go "yes I agree"? Then come up with an actually arguement, points of discussion, something with actual content. Thanks.
Well there's some people not to be named here that just because they happen to have 50-4 scores, means that the everyone else has a problem and should play catch-up. Or toggle those binds, gammas, rates, pokemon whatever.
He's the counterpart to those people who look at 3.2 and say, man I'm going to make babies tonight.
Criticism is needed somewhere and yes, I'd like him to be able to post some deeper thoughts, but you can't have a debate if you have no opponent. Unless you like a forum where each thread, someone writes something and you have 10 pages of people replying with "yes".
Don't single him out, just because he's on the other team. He doesn't like what's happening, but he's never made any attacks on you. I don't see why you need to do that to him.
<!--quoteo(post=1611836:date=Mar 6 2007, 12:20 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 6 2007, 12:20 PM) [snapback]1611836[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Heh... I didn't see a single big server balance complainment during the beta testing. Somehow it seems people moved to 3.2 and judged it in a day. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ding ding ding ding you are the winner. The whole point of releasing a PUBLIC beta was to balance for PUBLIC play.
Just a description: Tanith/ fusion 1st hive, i was alien.
<img src="http://www.ns.jolt.co.uk/images/maps/ns_tanith.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /> (old but enough to get it)
We chose SC. Thought all didn't agree; SC was the chamber and was developped early at cargo + chemical and SAT (meaning the next hive choice was SAT).
SC made us enough strong to avoid invasion in cargo. Thought a lot were killed often on both side, this kept us from being sieged from cargo. But marins did make a base at 'storage entrance'. upgraded the TF to siege but didn't put any. they were waiting.
SAT hive was gestating and we were munching RTs at 'reactor room', 'west acces corridor' and 'waste'. We had all the remaining RTs and were able to protect it efficiently. No RTs was down on the alien side and we were destroying marins RT from time to time. We were somehow efficient.
But still the game was stalled even with second hive up. MC was the choice for the second upgrade. We couldn't get rid of the 'storage entrance' base.
The commander started to electrify RTs to get rid of munchers... and we tried for a little moment to enter the marin start.
So we tried to put the 3rd hive and use MC to clear it. The problem is the marin got stronger weapons and just rushed it like if it was a 'piece o cake'. We tried it 2 times, and the result was the same. Onos + gorges + skulks didn't change anything.
Then came the HAs and siege at cargo. After getting equiped they sieged Cargo to get rid of the 2, 3 Oc stuff there then they got to the fusion hive. 15sec later the hive was down. They did not have time to reach SAT... we quited... but hey... no matter was we try at this point. It's a waste of time.
The Marins strategy was to (even loosing RTs from time to time) wait until a HA rush was possible and then rush. I remember only one HA was put down by a horde of skulks. It was a GL...
It was a 10vs10 (at least) game. Ok the game is made for a 6vs6 round. but hey...
One the other side i played a game on origin were strong players were on the marins side and strong player too but not as strong were on the alien side. It was a blodshed. they died in 5 minutes. No TF only 3 pg at empty hive location and close to the first hive. The commander didn't have the time to give us advanced weapons.
My point is: Why playing a game on FFA if it is ment to be played as clanplay only ? How do you recruit new players if the FFA fails to be attractive ?
FFA is the public part of the game (i mean casual). Some players don't want clanplay or simply don't have the time for that. Clanplay can be seen sometimes like a work. And nobody expect to be recruited by a clan if he/she can't show off a little in FFA.
I mean to be attractive you have to be gentle with the noobs. 15vs15 is played different than a "6vs6 compet uber clan style (lol)". Plus people don't get the game or understand the maps in one second. There is a learning curve. Ok but people get bored if they can't do anything unless they are 'Pro-pistol-uber-wheel-stylized-"ya-naab!!!" players. They must be able to play along with good players to learn and progress.
Suggestion: Ok there is whinners and there will always be. I think they are not totaly wrong. Maybee listen a little and test more will help.
Maybee implementing a dynamic system for balancing the game would work better. *Enhabced life bonus for hive/rts depending on player number. *hive cost / rt cost depending on player number. *reduced cost and damage for weapons when player number grows. Things like that. With all that kind of parameter it is possible to slow or accelerate the fade arrival, hive gestating etc...
It'll be a little bit touchy to adjust the balance. At the time devs make that kind of system, it'll be easy to change a parameter. They even will be able to predict was will happen (how many fade (average) on a 10players team ) when they change a parameter. One can't go without the other. If you change something you know what will be the impact on the game so after learning a bit (and confirming results) you are able to predict more precisely. It will need to get something like 1 week for testing a bunch of settings. 4 weeks to complete the task with different "testing parameter". Each time making less and less adjustments as you approach the goal. Testing means 6vs6 and 10vs10 or more.
A totally agree that the fade shouldn't be the 'invincible terminator T1000' of the game. But i think the price is a little bit too high for the life time of it. Maybee switching the lerk 'spore' with 'umbra' at first hive would prevent such a thing. In this case a fade has to be with a lerk to be really efficient. That need teamplay and coordination. the problem is that a lerk cannot be usefull on all maps. Some ceiling are too low in my opinion and some maps needs more vents.
I'm a supporter of the game because i think the RTS/FPS system is a good experience and an interesting one. Saying that it's difficult to balance it is not whitout sense. But hey!; it's been more than 2 years that a lot of people say that and the system doesn't really change. Maybee it's time to put things at work... once for all.
Where is this notion that NS is balanced solely around clan play(competitive play)? Is it on the front page? Has a dev said it? IS IT ANYWHERE?
Here are some facts for you.
-The pt team is made up of public and competitive players. -Most competitive players also enjoy public play. -The dev team released a public beta to test balance.
I don't see how anyone could say that 3.2 design and balanced was focused on competitive NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1612526:date=Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1612526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Where is this notion that NS is balanced solely around clan play(competitive play)? Is it on the front page? Has a dev said it? IS IT ANYWHERE?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just said 6vs6...
<!--quoteo(post=1612526:date=Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1612526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> -The pt team is made up of public and competitive players. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what? It doesn't change what i said. You can't deny that 5 players in a hive is less dangerous thant 10 (same equipement) or 12... More fire power bring hive down faster. As 6vs6 is less than 12vs12; clanplay will see more balanced games because of the standardized and reduced number of players in each team. Thought they are more organized and faster in upgrading, the impact is somehow moderate. Because you will never see in that kind of game 10 players in a hive... <b>As long as no dynamic system is implemented; it is made for, and will fit a determined number of players.</b> Even if you can extend it a little. <b>It has limitations and will until the system is changed/updated.</b>
And as i see... FFA results (marins wins GG) and complaints from some doens't contradict me.
<!--quoteo(post=1612526:date=Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1612526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> -Most competitive players also enjoy public play. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And ... ? ? What does it change?
<!--quoteo(post=1612530:date=Mar 8 2007, 07:14 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Mar 8 2007, 07:14 AM) [snapback]1612530[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just said 6vs6... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes the clanners decided to play it 6vs6 because its balanced for it, its not the other way around that the game is balanced for 6vs6 because the clanners say so.
<!--quoteo(post=1612521:date=Mar 8 2007, 11:05 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UncleCrunch @ Mar 8 2007, 11:05 AM) [snapback]1612521[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Just a description: Tanith/ fusion 1st hive, i was alien. ...
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That story proves nothing except that you lost.
No timeline, if you build 1 rt and save for hive until 10 mins, you are quite sure to go down.
Comm electrifying rt:s? Thats 45 res each, you know. BBomb/fade em out and they'll never get any proto tech.
3.2 is res war as much as hivewar. You had cargo and sat. That means you cover 5 rt positions effectively while marines have 5 too. Use skulks to munch out the res and some focus fades to cover them/attack pg:s and there you go. Marines without ha can't really push vs focus fades.
Of course in public its difficult to organise such things, but I think you should try to see the game logic before going around and declaring total imbalance.
Leapfocus skulks should terminate public level light armor marines after a short while of practise now that +movement makes things easier.
Spore lerks are quite nasty if you're just holding positions with light armor. Either the comm has to med and hand out welders all the time or your focus fades and skulks are having a field day picking out one-shot kills.
Sure the 3.2 may be imbalanced for 24+ servers, but why not trying to adapt (duhh) a bit at the same time while discussing.
The problem on Tanith is having a spot to be able to bile bomb. Unfortunatly if the vent at reactor room is closed, you don't have many options. Same for west acces; one alley, one marins, one death. Even with a fade as backup, 2 marins can get rid of it. and BTW get rid of you too. On large game there's always more than one marins.
Munching RT was done... but PG helped them well. Easy to get there = easy to rebuild. In fact considering all that we were better a the game than them. -We killed RTs while defending cargo. Defending cargo means high presure because it's a wide open big room. -We were denfending our RTs in a way that no alien RT was put down. -We were getting to the marins start.
Fade died easely, at storage entrance marins base. Wich was full of turets and mines. And marins were pushing forward. So any gorge couldn't get there and bile bomb. Everybody knows that cargo is the weak point for alien...
On large game leap/focus is one kill for one death (you kill one / his budy kills you coz there's always a budy on large games). 1 Marins and 1 alien just cancel their presence in the game for a moment. That doesn't make the difference.
And of course we tried to make some rush on that spot with higher lifeforms. Once half the team on both side is dead, stays the turrets and some other marins to weld anything that needs... Remember other aliens and marins fight for RTs.
You'll get my point:
For what i saw so far on large game.
Scenario 1 : Marins "hammer" aliens and it's finished in less than 5 minutes. Scenario 2 : Aliens "hammer" Marins and it's finished in less than 5 minutes. For these 2 first scenarios you can easely say that one team dominate (skill) the other.
Scenario 3 : The two teams have an aproximatly equal skill level. The two team seem to form a front line that will last until a serious change comes (HA christmas day/or 3rd hive put successfully). That is the problem. The game stallls strategicaly speaking (front line etc...) because once you get there. Hive 3 is easely denied. So it's stalled.
Even if marins lack of skill , it's not so important because the number catch up, and make them able to keep the pace. The difference is that a fade for example costs 50res. When he dies it's 50res lost for the team. Full equiped HA doesn't cost the same price and is sparable.
Plus (in this example) when a marins dies in a field of turets killed by a sneaking tricky skulk who got the 2res. The skulk dies because of turets. The marins team get 2 res. The marins respawn. end of story. But the marins presence is still there... turets... PG, and budies
They have to make a big mistake to loose the base. Or alien have to be the lucky ones of the day.
To make it short : On large games when teams seem to have an equal skill; it stalls.
Alien must have a hell of a luck to be able to finish the third hive. On large game you can have 2 hives but you can't hide a 3rd hive. Too many people goes throught PG and see if the locked hive is here. You can't miss it.
So what the solution ? Building 2 hives at the same time <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> Make the team entirely composed of fade and onos???
IMO the 'true' balance of the game is much closer to 9v9. Im saying this because no matter what the exact number, theres a leeway of quiet a bit above and below it where the game will still be completely balanced.
Gorges Hideout, a 24 player server, has awesome games. It seems balanced perfectly. Sure, you toss on another SIX PLAYERS (an *added* 25% onto Gorges), and you can expect to be out of the 'balanced' loop (though tbh, it doesnt even seem to be an issue for me, aliens won another 4 or 5 of the 7 games i played lastnight on Guns).
So, 12v12 seems balanced just fine, and so does 6v6? The number in between is 9v9. Its not that simple though. So..
Think about 6v6. Is it really the 'balanced number'? Well, what happens when you remove to players, to 5v5? or another, to 4v4? Not good.
Besides, there are other reasons why 6v6 is the clanning standard. Basic logistical reasons. If youve ever been in a clan, you know how freaking hard it can be to muster up 6 people sometimes. Many clans have well over 12 people, simply because its so difficult to get enough people together to actually scrim or match. IMO 9v9 NS competitive would be far more dynamic and fun. You'd see some INTENSE battles... and a whole new array of strats.
Also, 6v6 is the standard for CS competitive (or was).
The number, either way, is pretty arbitrary. When the devs say they balance it for 6v6-9v9, they mean that thats what they use to test it. They even just said, either in this thread or another, that they dont balance it for higher because its simply too hard to get that many PTs up and running, or at least enough.
Comments
I'm quitting NS.
Aliens are nerfed especially Fades.
Rines have the upperhand now.
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Are you quitting because Fades don't have kill ratio of 100/1 like before? I played 4-5 games yesterday (my free day) and aliens won 3 times.
So you're quitting... we will miss you... not.
It's not worth posting a point by point to developers who don't listen to the community and instead balance the game towards the vocal minority.
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Well, perhaps if you said something, you'd be heard from. Vocal minority? If I were trying to balance the game, I'd rather listen to that than a silent majority. Don't go complaining after the deal is done.
Still hoping for a scalable alien res system... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I notice that fades die more often, which is in my opinion good, but the public seems to think different.
I'd suggest a drop in res cost to go fade (They die more often) or a slight nerf to the heavier weapons of the marines.
It's not worth posting a point by point to developers who don't listen to the community and instead balance the game towards the vocal minority.
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... Yet you decide to join these forums for the sole purpose of whining, and complaining how the new release sucks. Not only you do that, you do so in an offensive manner, and don't hesitate to insult those who disagree with your opinion without even bothering to care about what they have to say.
You know what changed in the LMG marine vs Skulk battle between 3.1 and 3.2?
Thats right, absolutely nothing! Don't complain about how 3.2 makes skulks too weak, because it didnt change skulks at all. Not in the slightest!
And if your being approached by a Lerk or a Fade in that large hive, you're still dead, so I don't really see what you're complaining about.
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Did i say marins LMG was changed ? no. I just say, it seems more easy to kill a skulk. Maybee some lag problems have been solved (i use the same servers same this same that etc.). And now you need less bullets to kill... (it seems).
The lerk... well, i don't remember killing so many lerk+cele since the 3.2.0 came out. In fact i think i killed (not a lucky shot) more lerk+cele in 3.2.0 than i did in 3.1.3 so far... Big lucky shot on 3.13. I tend to adopt the "hide in vent" behavior when i lerk.
Fade... with focus... maybe... But he's got a hard time before i die.
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Ok kero, in the next version, they can make it so that commanders have no access to the map, because it's "overpowered". Obviously no one should complain about it because they enjoyed using the map. After all, games aren't about having fun, that would be silly.
what u where thinking...
this is a rat extermination game... not a alien game... join! marines!!! no skill need it!!!!! <--- like mac
It's called venting - something that happens frequently when there isn't an official channel of communication between developers and players. The idea should be to actively participate in a balance feedback thread, possibly making sub-threads to address certain points of grievance. Instead, what is happening is that a thread gets dropped and it seems like a place to drop your load of frustration since nobody that matters is listening anyway.
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I think they would listen more if there was less whining and more professional-like problem solving. Numbers would be good too.
ie: "skulks suck because they slow omg gg ns" versus "I feel skulks need a boost of 50 extra units per sec and here's why: [...] Take a look at K:D ratios for these games from every 5 min time in these screenshots from multiple games on multiple servers. (names, times, and dates are listed)"
<!--quoteo(post=1611797:date=Mar 6 2007, 08:34 AM:name=Finawin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Finawin @ Mar 6 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]1611797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
It's not worth posting a point by point to developers who don't listen to the community and instead balance the game towards the vocal minority.
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Again, if your name is the same here as the guy I remember from in-game: you always play combat and on servers with ExtraLevels 3 that is <i>poorly</i> balanced. To the late game. A situation where marines can basically spawn camp via Uranium Ammo grenade spam. Not to mention most alien players are deaf it seems and feed marines early. Not enough early lerks or people who are actually good as xenocide.
I still think MT is the biggest problem for combat, but that's another thread/topic...
<!--quoteo(post=1611836:date=Mar 6 2007, 11:20 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 6 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]1611836[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
Heh... I didn't see a single big server balance complainment during the beta testing. Somehow it seems people moved to 3.2 and judged it in a day.
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I know...
In fact, most people from in-game I've talked to have had far more praise for 3.2 than complaints. Fades not sticking to ladders and onii getting knockback really help. It seems as if it's only combat players that are complaining.
<!--quoteo(post=1611852:date=Mar 6 2007, 12:19 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cereal_KillR @ Mar 6 2007, 12:19 PM) [snapback]1611852[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
... Yet you decide to join these forums for the sole purpose of whining, and complaining how the new release sucks. Not only you do that, you do so in an offensive manner, and don't hesitate to insult those who disagree with your opinion without even bothering to care about what they have to say.
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Well said.
Remember also that ExtraLevels 3 is NOT balance, especially how it is done on most servers. Most of your server admins SUCK at balancing. In fact they probably suck and blow AT THE SAME TIME at balancing. And yet people vent at the developers instead?
I do it in an offensive manner because I am utterly ###### off that this game is going down the tubes. The community was already shrinking immensely with some few last bastions left. One more nail into the coffin...
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And you're trying to justify yourself? I don't want to feel like I need to teach you something, but if you ever want to be taken seriously, you need to be polite to your (esteemed) opponent. If you can't communicate without relying on insults and harsh language, how do you expect people to listen to you and actually care about what you're saying?
It's not hard to say "I believe that the rate of fire on pistols is much too high. It was never meant to be a railgun, but a sidearm" instead of "Pistol whipping is really ish" and people might actually acknowledge the former, not the latter. Same goes with fading: "I think fades should be the bread and butter of alien play. Currently, they die too fast due to their low blink acceleration. As such, the fade dies much too quickly and cannot compete with heavy marine weaponry, especially in large games." instead of "Fades are now crap, bring back the old blink"
(For the record, yes I think pistols should be sidearms and nothing more, and no I don't think fades should return to their one-man army status they had in 3.1)
Ok kero, in the next version, they can make it so that commanders have no access to the map, because it's "overpowered". Obviously no one should complain about it because they enjoyed using the map. After all, games aren't about having fun, that would be silly.
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You're giving yourself away by using my other name. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" />
But you're suggesting that the devs are fundamentally changing the way Fades work or something. They aren't. They are simply not doing that. What they are doing is threatening a particular play-style of <i>playing</i> fades and lerks, and people who liked the old play-styles are complaining, not because the old play-styles were better, but just because thats what they were used to.
My own favorite play style has been obliterated numerous times over the evolution of NS. But rather than spend all day complaining, I learned a new play style. The game is constantly evolving, which is good. That keeps it fresh and entertaining. If I was still playing version 2.01 today, I'd probably be bored of it by now, even though I thought it was great at the time. But the game has improved since then, even though I've had to give up my own favorite play-style a few times to get there.
I'm not even sure what reason I have to read your posts, let alone consider your opinion valid and well thought out, you offer zero evidence or experience to support your claims. There's trolling like me because it's funny and then there's being a troll by accident because you're too stupid to actually articulate your opinions beyond a weak verbal assualt on whoever you feel victimised by, and that'd be everyone by the sounds of it. Want people to think you're anything more than a punch line? Want more than one randomer to go "yes I agree"? Then come up with an actually arguement, points of discussion, something with actual content. Thanks.
He's the counterpart to those people who look at 3.2 and say, man I'm going to make babies tonight.
Criticism is needed somewhere and yes, I'd like him to be able to post some deeper thoughts, but you can't have a debate if you have no opponent. Unless you like a forum where each thread, someone writes something and you have 10 pages of people replying with "yes".
Don't single him out, just because he's on the other team. He doesn't like what's happening, but he's never made any attacks on you. I don't see why you need to do that to him.
Heh... I didn't see a single big server balance complainment during the beta testing. Somehow it seems people moved to 3.2 and judged it in a day.
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ding ding ding ding you are the winner. The whole point of releasing a PUBLIC beta was to balance for PUBLIC play.
Tanith/ fusion 1st hive, i was alien.
<img src="http://www.ns.jolt.co.uk/images/maps/ns_tanith.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
(old but enough to get it)
We chose SC. Thought all didn't agree; SC was the chamber and was developped early at cargo + chemical and SAT (meaning the next hive choice was SAT).
SC made us enough strong to avoid invasion in cargo. Thought a lot were killed often on both side, this kept us from being sieged from cargo. But marins did make a base at 'storage entrance'. upgraded the TF to siege but didn't put any. they were waiting.
SAT hive was gestating and we were munching RTs at 'reactor room', 'west acces corridor' and 'waste'. We had all the remaining RTs and were able to protect it efficiently. No RTs was down on the alien side and we were destroying marins RT from time to time. We were somehow efficient.
But still the game was stalled even with second hive up. MC was the choice for the second upgrade. We couldn't get rid of the 'storage entrance' base.
The commander started to electrify RTs to get rid of munchers... and we tried for a little moment to enter the marin start.
So we tried to put the 3rd hive and use MC to clear it. The problem is the marin got stronger weapons and just rushed it like if it was a 'piece o cake'. We tried it 2 times, and the result was the same. Onos + gorges + skulks didn't change anything.
Then came the HAs and siege at cargo. After getting equiped they sieged Cargo to get rid of the 2, 3 Oc stuff there then they got to the fusion hive. 15sec later the hive was down. They did not have time to reach SAT... we quited... but hey... no matter was we try at this point. It's a waste of time.
The Marins strategy was to (even loosing RTs from time to time) wait until a HA rush was possible and then rush. I remember only one HA was put down by a horde of skulks. It was a GL...
It was a 10vs10 (at least) game. Ok the game is made for a 6vs6 round. but hey...
One the other side i played a game on origin were strong players were on the marins side and strong player too but not as strong were on the alien side. It was a blodshed. they died in 5 minutes. No TF only 3 pg at empty hive location and close to the first hive. The commander didn't have the time to give us advanced weapons.
My point is:
Why playing a game on FFA if it is ment to be played as clanplay only ?
How do you recruit new players if the FFA fails to be attractive ?
FFA is the public part of the game (i mean casual). Some players don't want clanplay or simply don't have the time for that. Clanplay can be seen sometimes like a work. And nobody expect to be recruited by a clan if he/she can't show off a little in FFA.
I mean to be attractive you have to be gentle with the noobs. 15vs15 is played different than a "6vs6 compet uber clan style (lol)". Plus people don't get the game or understand the maps in one second. There is a learning curve. Ok but people get bored if they can't do anything unless they are 'Pro-pistol-uber-wheel-stylized-"ya-naab!!!" players. They must be able to play along with good players to learn and progress.
Suggestion:
Ok there is whinners and there will always be. I think they are not totaly wrong. Maybee listen a little and test more will help.
Maybee implementing a dynamic system for balancing the game would work better.
*Enhabced life bonus for hive/rts depending on player number.
*hive cost / rt cost depending on player number.
*reduced cost and damage for weapons when player number grows.
Things like that. With all that kind of parameter it is possible to slow or accelerate the fade arrival, hive gestating etc...
It'll be a little bit touchy to adjust the balance. At the time devs make that kind of system, it'll be easy to change a parameter. They even will be able to predict was will happen (how many fade (average) on a 10players team ) when they change a parameter. One can't go without the other. If you change something you know what will be the impact on the game so after learning a bit (and confirming results) you are able to predict more precisely. It will need to get something like 1 week for testing a bunch of settings. 4 weeks to complete the task with different "testing parameter". Each time making less and less adjustments as you approach the goal. Testing means 6vs6 and 10vs10 or more.
A totally agree that the fade shouldn't be the 'invincible terminator T1000' of the game. But i think the price is a little bit too high for the life time of it. Maybee switching the lerk 'spore' with 'umbra' at first hive would prevent such a thing. In this case a fade has to be with a lerk to be really efficient. That need teamplay and coordination. the problem is that a lerk cannot be usefull on all maps. Some ceiling are too low in my opinion and some maps needs more vents.
I'm a supporter of the game because i think the RTS/FPS system is a good experience and an interesting one. Saying that it's difficult to balance it is not whitout sense. But hey!; it's been more than 2 years that a lot of people say that and the system doesn't really change. Maybee it's time to put things at work... once for all.
Here are some facts for you.
-The pt team is made up of public and competitive players.
-Most competitive players also enjoy public play.
-The dev team released a public beta to test balance.
I don't see how anyone could say that 3.2 design and balanced was focused on competitive NS.
Where is this notion that NS is balanced solely around clan play(competitive play)? Is it on the front page? Has a dev said it? IS IT ANYWHERE?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just said 6vs6...
<!--quoteo(post=1612526:date=Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1612526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
-The pt team is made up of public and competitive players.
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So what? It doesn't change what i said. You can't deny that 5 players in a hive is less dangerous thant 10 (same equipement) or 12... More fire power bring hive down faster. As 6vs6 is less than 12vs12; clanplay will see more balanced games because of the standardized and reduced number of players in each team. Thought they are more organized and faster in upgrading, the impact is somehow moderate. Because you will never see in that kind of game 10 players in a hive... <b>As long as no dynamic system is implemented; it is made for, and will fit a determined number of players.</b> Even if you can extend it a little. <b>It has limitations and will until the system is changed/updated.</b>
And as i see... FFA results (marins wins GG) and complaints from some doens't contradict me.
<!--quoteo(post=1612526:date=Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM:name=LazyEye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyEye @ Mar 8 2007, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1612526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
-Most competitive players also enjoy public play.
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And ... ? ? What does it change?
Just said 6vs6...
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yes the clanners decided to play it 6vs6 because its balanced for it, its not the other way around that the game is balanced for 6vs6 because the clanners say so.
Just a description:
Tanith/ fusion 1st hive, i was alien.
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That story proves nothing except that you lost.
No timeline, if you build 1 rt and save for hive until 10 mins, you are quite sure to go down.
Comm electrifying rt:s? Thats 45 res each, you know. BBomb/fade em out and they'll never get any proto tech.
3.2 is res war as much as hivewar. You had cargo and sat. That means you cover 5 rt positions effectively while marines have 5 too. Use skulks to munch out the res and some focus fades to cover them/attack pg:s and there you go. Marines without ha can't really push vs focus fades.
Of course in public its difficult to organise such things, but I think you should try to see the game logic before going around and declaring total imbalance.
Leapfocus skulks should terminate public level light armor marines after a short while of practise now that +movement makes things easier.
Spore lerks are quite nasty if you're just holding positions with light armor. Either the comm has to med and hand out welders all the time or your focus fades and skulks are having a field day picking out one-shot kills.
Sure the 3.2 may be imbalanced for 24+ servers, but why not trying to adapt (duhh) a bit at the same time while discussing.
Munching RT was done... but PG helped them well. Easy to get there = easy to rebuild. In fact considering all that we were better a the game than them.
-We killed RTs while defending cargo. Defending cargo means high presure because it's a wide open big room.
-We were denfending our RTs in a way that no alien RT was put down.
-We were getting to the marins start.
Fade died easely, at storage entrance marins base. Wich was full of turets and mines. And marins were pushing forward. So any gorge couldn't get there and bile bomb. Everybody knows that cargo is the weak point for alien...
On large game leap/focus is one kill for one death (you kill one / his budy kills you coz there's always a budy on large games). 1 Marins and 1 alien just cancel their presence in the game for a moment. That doesn't make the difference.
And of course we tried to make some rush on that spot with higher lifeforms. Once half the team on both side is dead, stays the turrets and some other marins to weld anything that needs... Remember other aliens and marins fight for RTs.
You'll get my point:
For what i saw so far on large game.
Scenario 1 : Marins "hammer" aliens and it's finished in less than 5 minutes.
Scenario 2 : Aliens "hammer" Marins and it's finished in less than 5 minutes.
For these 2 first scenarios you can easely say that one team dominate (skill) the other.
Scenario 3 :
The two teams have an aproximatly equal skill level. The two team seem to form a front line that will last until a serious change comes (HA christmas day/or 3rd hive put successfully). That is the problem. The game stallls strategicaly speaking (front line etc...) because once you get there. Hive 3 is easely denied. So it's stalled.
Even if marins lack of skill , it's not so important because the number catch up, and make them able to keep the pace. The difference is that a fade for example costs 50res. When he dies it's 50res lost for the team. Full equiped HA doesn't cost the same price and is sparable.
Plus (in this example) when a marins dies in a field of turets killed by a sneaking tricky skulk who got the 2res. The skulk dies because of turets. The marins team get 2 res. The marins respawn. end of story. But the marins presence is still there... turets... PG, and budies
They have to make a big mistake to loose the base. Or alien have to be the lucky ones of the day.
To make it short : On large games when teams seem to have an equal skill; it stalls.
Alien must have a hell of a luck to be able to finish the third hive. On large game you can have 2 hives but you can't hide a 3rd hive. Too many people goes throught PG and see if the locked hive is here. You can't miss it.
So what the solution ? Building 2 hives at the same time <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /> Make the team entirely composed of fade and onos???
Gorges Hideout, a 24 player server, has awesome games. It seems balanced perfectly. Sure, you toss on another SIX PLAYERS (an *added* 25% onto Gorges), and you can expect to be out of the 'balanced' loop (though tbh, it doesnt even seem to be an issue for me, aliens won another 4 or 5 of the 7 games i played lastnight on Guns).
So, 12v12 seems balanced just fine, and so does 6v6? The number in between is 9v9. Its not that simple though. So..
Think about 6v6. Is it really the 'balanced number'? Well, what happens when you remove to players, to 5v5? or another, to 4v4? Not good.
Besides, there are other reasons why 6v6 is the clanning standard. Basic logistical reasons. If youve ever been in a clan, you know how freaking hard it can be to muster up 6 people sometimes. Many clans have well over 12 people, simply because its so difficult to get enough people together to actually scrim or match. IMO 9v9 NS competitive would be far more dynamic and fun. You'd see some INTENSE battles... and a whole new array of strats.
Also, 6v6 is the standard for CS competitive (or was).
The number, either way, is pretty arbitrary. When the devs say they balance it for 6v6-9v9, they mean that thats what they use to test it. They even just said, either in this thread or another, that they dont balance it for higher because its simply too hard to get that many PTs up and running, or at least enough.