The Problem With Turrets

BoddoZerg · November 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">It's the Tfac</div> <b>The fundamental problem with Human Turrets in NS</b>
Turret factory vulnerability leading to supralinear scaling and fundamental imbalance.

Virtually any NS player has some gripe with turrets. You will hear from Human players that small numbers of Turrets are pathetically weak. At the same time, the Kharaa will complain that large "turret farms" are nearly invincible. Ironically, both sides are absolutely correct. Turrets in NS suffer a fundamental imbalance in their scaling properties, and in this discussion I will attempt to highlight the cause of this imbalance.

Since the v1.01 patch, Turrets have required a Turret Factory to continue functioning. The Turret Factory is a large, vulnerable building. If turrets are improperly placed, a single Skulk can quickly bite it to death, disabling all the Turrets in the area. Therefore, Human commanders have been forced to become very cautious about the distribution of turrets around their turret factory. However, no matter how good your turret placement is, it is always possible to take down your tfac without killing all your turrets. As long as all the turrets on one side of the tfac are killed, that Skulk can sit on that side of the tfac and kill it, with no fear of reprisal.

Assuming a perfect circular distribution of turrets around the tfac, one needs only kill half the turrets around a tfac to render the tfac completely vulnerable to single-skulk attack. A Turret Factory with 5 turrets, costing 120 resources total, can be killed if only two turrets are destroyed. A single Fade can thus kill a 5-turret farm, assuming that no Marines come to save it. A tfac with 3-4 turrets surrounding it <b>can usually be killed after only one turret is destroyed</b> - a single Skulk can sometimes destroy a 4-turret turretfarm, and two skulks working together definitely will.

Therefore, Marine outposts are both prohibitively expensive (5 turrets, the minimum useful number, costs 120 resources - enough to equip 2 marines with HA/HMG/Welder) and rather weak. (An Adrenal/Carapace upgraded Fade, costing 48 resources, can easily destroy all 5 turrets and the tfac) An outpost built around a single resource node that costs 142 resources will have to stand for more than 10 minutes in order to make up for its cost, yet such a 5-turret outpost is likely to be taken down in a few minutes by persistent Skulk attacks. The cost effectiveness of Frontiersmen turrets in far-flung outposts is terrible.

On the other hand, any Alien who's faced a 10+ turret Turretfarm can tell you that large numbers of turrets are ridiculously powerful. The reason a large number of turrets is so good is simply because it becomes difficult to destroy the tfac without having to fight all those turrets first. If a turret farm starts out with 12 turrets, a Skulk would need to kill 5-6 turrets before he'd be able to find a safe spot where he could whack the Tfac. Against 12 turrets, a Skulk would not survive long enough to bring a single turret into yellow life. Because large numbers of turrets are absolutely deadly at close range, the only way for Aliens to destroy them is by repeated hit and run attacks with ranged projectiles such as Acid Rockets, Bilebombs, or Lerk spikes. Killing the tfac of a heavily-turreted area is a very difficult proposition, often involving repeated suicide attacks by Carapace upgraded skulks, each of which only takes a small amount of life from the tfac - if a single Marine with a Welder shows up, many skulks' worth of damage is quickly undone.

The fundamental problem with Marine turrets is simply that their usefulness scales supralinearly. A small number of turrets is pathetically easy to destroy - just eat one turret, then go to work on the vulnerable tfac. A large number of turrets lacks this weakness, and is thus much more powerful. The problem with this is that it severely limits the Marines' strategic options. It is utterly uneconomical to spend the resources building 3-5 turrets at a resource node when a couple of Skulks or a Fade can eat the turrets at their leisure. The cost-effectiveness of building more turrets is much better when you add more turrets to an already-heavily-turreted location like your main base, but in the end, turtling up like this will only get you killed.

IMHO, turrets would be MUCH better balanced if they were a bit weaker, but they could shoot through the Tfac just like Offense chambers shooting through sensory chambers and resource towers. Right now, there is absolutely no point in building 2 turrets for a cheap defense... a Skulk would just find somewhere around the tfac where neither turret can shoot him, and bite the tfac to death. With turrets shooting through the tfac, the Skulk would die before he could eat the tfac; even if those 2 turrets were as weak as 1 turret is now, a single turret shooting a skulk will kill it rather quickly. On the other hand, the farms of 12 turrets don't benefit much from shooting-through-tfac anyways, so if they were weaker, it would only be a nerf.

Turrets should be useful in small numbers, but right now they aren't - it's either farm up or don't bother with a tfac at all.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'>

tleng · November 2002

excellent analysis. I totally agree. It is definitely not cost effective to guard a single nozzle which gives you 1rp per 5 seconds with a 120rp investment. However single human unguarded rts are toast unlike the aliens who can put single rts because humans can't roam around at will.

this should be in the suggestion forum too.

Straylight · November 2002

why not just make r points less expensive and then don't cover defend them with turrets... that's my solution and I think it would be cool.

Dauntl3ss · November 2002

in 1.0 turrets didnt need a TF, only to be build...
Either they turn that back, or turrets shoots throu the TF, thou shooting throu a building is kinda weird, its weird with OC's shooting throu SC's too... Dunno why its still possible...

/me waits for 1.03

BoddoZerg · November 2002

OC's also shoot straight through resource towers. I've tried hiding behind a resource chamber as marine... doesn't work against OCs.

It only makes sense for human turrets to be given this same "ability".

Crazy_Dog · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tleng @ Nov 25 2002, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>excellent analysis. I totally agree. It is definitely not cost effective to guard a single nozzle which gives you 1rp per 5 seconds with a 120rp investment. However single human unguarded rts are toast unlike the aliens who can put single rts because humans can't roam around at will.

this should be in the suggestion forum too.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
try thinking that instead of garding a resource node your realy just garding a junction point and there happens to be a node there.

Every time you plop down your 5 - 6 turrets on a corner you slow the aliens down by just a little bit more plus you have a place to run to if a fade or onos rushes you.
If the aliens are trying to get rid of this blockaid you put up they are not attacking your main base or the hive that you are at right now building a turret farm like they have never seen.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Stormeh · November 2002

I agree the turrets aren thet usefull atm if not wielded in huge numbers.

Perhaps make them stronger and fire stronger rounds but up the cost a little?
Or give them longer range?

reasa · November 2002

I agree it was much better in the first version they should have never changed the turrents IMO that was a big mistake and most likely brought on more then half of the "aliens always win posts" as an alien I have destroyed so many marine bases as a loneing skulk takeing up to 100 resouces on a run that is just not fair (no matter how much fun it is) its wrong so very wrong and the main reason why I never ever play marine.
Any way to sum up fix the turrents to how they were I bet you well end all of the "aleins always win" posts.

othell · November 2002

Why must people keep referring to TURRETS as "turrents"? It makes absolutely no sense and is quite stupid.

Lazerus · November 2002

First of all .. it's Turrets, not Turrents!!!!!

OK? everyone got that? TURRETS! no "N" ! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

I can't belive how many people say turrents.. even on voice chat.. when will you people learn!?

anyway.. BoddoZerg, well said, and I agree with your solution the most.. It's only fair since the aliens have the ability to shoot through thier own buildings.. However, maybe decreasing thier damage is a bad idea.. it's already pretty low, and once they fix the bile bombs, it would be too easy to take them out. Why not instead decrease the damage they inflict slightly, or make them slightly more expensive?

cheers,
Lazerus
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

BoddoZerg · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazerus @ Nov 25 2002, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>First of all .. it's Turrets, not Turrents!!!!!

OK? everyone got that? TURRETS! no "N" ! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'>

I can't belive how many people say turrents.. even on voice chat.. when will you people learn!?

anyway.. BoddoZerg, well said, and I agree with your solution the most.. It's only fair since the aliens have the ability to shoot through thier own buildings.. However, maybe decreasing thier damage is a bad idea.. it's already pretty low, and once they fix the bile bombs, it would be too easy to take them out. Why not instead decrease the damage they inflict slightly, or make them slightly more expensive?

cheers,
Lazerus
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'd much rather see weaker cheaper turrets than stronger more expensive ones. The point is to make the turret granularity finer, so instead of having the choice between "no defenses" and "airtight unkillable defenses" the Frontiersmen can choose from a whole spectrum of defenses, from the cheapest 2 turret defense to a massive dozen-turret farm and everything in between.

The problem with turrets is that there is no turret defense cheap enough to be expendable. A 4-turret defense costs 101 resources. That's a lot. The idea of cheaper, weaker, fire-through-tfac turrets is so that a 2 or 3 turret defense can actually be viable.

Keep in mind that with Turrets firing straight through tfac, a 3-turret defense dealing less damage per turret would actually be MUCH stronger than a 3-turret defense right now.

Lazerus · November 2002

ahh.. ok.. Yes, if they were to make them weaker, then they should definatly be cheaper. That makes a lot of sense... I must have missed that point in your original post. This is a great idea, however now I would be worried about lag increasing. More turrets = more Bandwidth, but since they take less damage, there is more of a chance of them getting destroyed. A turret is almost like a bot, and therefore is pretty expensive computationally. I think...

-Lazerus

Typhon · November 2002

Very interesting analysis, brought up some very good points regarding the relation between cost put into an outpost and survivability of that outpost.

The way to prevent circle strafing is to set up the turrets and factory such that you cannot circle around any of them.

O.....O
..|TF|
O.....O

where O represents a turret and the TF is in the middle (. and ` are just for spacing things right). This prevents skulks from circling a turret or the factory. They have to strafe back and forth through a 180° angle while eating a turret, which allows the turret to track MUCH easier. Also, taking out 1 turret does not ensure safety, you have to take out 2 before there is a safe spot.

I've only had one commander do this setup, but it was very hard to take down. We had to wait for umbra before we could kill it.

Another good tip: drop a turret ON TOP OF the TF. You HAVE to kill that one before you can kill the TF, and all sentries in the area can shoot you while you do so. Even with poor placement otherwise, 1 sentry ontop of the TF REQUIRES the use of umbra.

ShuflY · November 2002

Hmmm, I dunno, I'm not one of the players who has complained about turrets on either side of the argument.

First of all, it doesn't take a minimum of 5 turrets to guard a turret factory. There are pleanty of walls to build up against. Build in a corner and you only have 2 sides to defend. There are even some small nitches on some of the maps where you can fit a turret factory in allowing access from only 1 side of it. Either way, a good alien player will always find a way to get rid of turret threats if no one is paying attention to them. The best way to keep your turret factorys up is to have a marine keeping an eye on them, a good human player is worth 10 turrets.

As for turret farming, this is more of a problem with the alien team progressing slowly. Aside from really long games, if the marines are spending all their time and resources putting 20 turrets in a single room, I can't help but wonder what the aliens were up to this whole time. In the time it takes to get all those turrets up, they could have another hive, or have taken 10 new resource points. Every game I play as alien where the marines try and lockdown a single room with an obscene amount of turrets, I just focus my energies on the other 95% of the map that the marines are forgetting about.

Either way, I personally have not seen a fault with the current turret system. The only problems I have seen are players failing to take advantage of how turrets are intended to work, instead opting to make up strategies that would work if the turret system was changed to fit their particular strategies needs.

Crazed-One · November 2002

OK, if Marine Turrets get changed , then I want Offense Chambers to shoot Bolts of Lightning its only fair, right? And your turrets do fire through marine resource towers, havent tried a Marine behind an Alien Resource tower but I believe you.

Daxx · November 2002

How about a TF with its own turret? This would take care of the pesky 1 skulk shutdown.

padijun · November 2002

I've got a couple of ideas.

1. A type of stand-alone turret that does more damage, has more health, and has "batteries". There would be downsides, of course, such as greater cost and a maximum limit (say 10 or so)

2. Turrets do more damage and can take more damage but the TF can only power a limited number (5 or so)

And this is from an alien perspective... It's rare when I play marines.

Windelkron · November 2002

Interesting, but having turrets being able to shoot through the tfac will render the "power-down" effect almost useless for the aliens. I personally had no idea that aliens turrets could shoot through other alien buildings; in fact, I often thought that the projectiles were getting blocked by outcroppings of other chambers. Anyway, I think the turrets are OK as they are, except a turret limit would be nice. No team should have the option of completely forgetting about an outpost, and still it surviving.

Also: has anyone noticed that the turrets can nail you even when you're hidden behind the factory? I try to get behind the turret factory, losing alot of my life in the progress, and when I'm chomping away, a bullet will hit me and I go down. I think these are bullets penetrating the factory, or something..

Another problem: If I advance too far "into" the turret factory, I guess there's a clipping error, because my model goes through the Tfac model and the turrets can shoot that no problem.

Cruzz · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crazed-One @ Nov 25 2002, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And your turrets do fire through marine resource towers, havent tried a Marine behind an Alien Resource tower but I believe you.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Not...exactly. Saying that you only need to take down half of the turrets surrounding a TF is wrong. You need to take down them in about a 220*-240* arch. A half-circle leaves the side turrets hitting you, albeit very rarely. Now the resourcers are weird, apparently it isn't just a box, those holes do pass through bullets from what I've seen.

Note also that the alien resourcer behaves much the same, offense chambers *do* shoot through the resourcer, but only to a point. If you align yourself at exactly the opposite side to the offense chamber shooting at you, it will not hit, ever. I killed 3 resourcers today keeping that in mind.

TheScapegoat · November 2002

I hardly ever have this problem if i do what you SUPPOSED to do. Send a marine to help the turrets.

I think the problem is that you CAN farm an area, turrets should be limited just as chambers are, so that marines are forced to defend there bases not just leave em lying around, just like aliens have to.

Doj · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Nov 25 2002, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Very interesting analysis, brought up some very good points regarding the relation between cost put into an outpost and survivability of that outpost.

The way to prevent circle strafing is to set up the turrets and factory such that you cannot circle around any of them.

O.....O
..|TF|
O.....O

where O represents a turret and the TF is in the middle (. and ` are just for spacing things right). This prevents skulks from circling a turret or the factory. They have to strafe back and forth through a 180° angle while eating a turret, which allows the turret to track MUCH easier. Also, taking out 1 turret does not ensure safety, you have to take out 2 before there is a safe spot.

I've only had one commander do this setup, but it was very hard to take down. We had to wait for umbra before we could kill it.

Another good tip: drop a turret ON TOP OF the TF. You HAVE to kill that one before you can kill the TF, and all sentries in the area can shoot you while you do so. Even with poor placement otherwise, 1 sentry ontop of the TF REQUIRES the use of umbra.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The way to prevent circle strafing is to set up the turrets and factory such that you cannot circle around any of them.

O.....O
..|TF|
O.....O

where O represents a turret and the TF is in the middle (. and ` are just for spacing things right). This prevents skulks from circling a turret or the factory. They have to strafe back and forth through a 180° angle while eating a turret, which allows the turret to track MUCH easier. Also, taking out 1 turret does not ensure safety, you have to take out 2 before there is a safe spot. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The problem with turrets is more the way most people seem to set them out, I agree. Your little ASCII art showing a turret setup is good, but neglects one thing all commanders seem to be ignoring. Lets take the Turret farm near the starting CC on every map. It seems most commanders just throw as many turrets at that door as possible. As well as slowing marine deployment to combat zones (until you have phase gates set up) it allows a skulk to quickly reach the turret line. Heres a example from Caged

---------------------
--------.......--------
...............S.....
O.O.O.O.O.O.O.O
.O....................O

As soon as the skulk starts hitting the centre turrets, the wing turrets cant hit him and neither can the back line. using other turrets as fire screens is very effective when i go skulking <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'> . I propose a diffrent layout to turret factory layouts that will allow skulks to never reach the line, while retaining effectiveness. using caged again, as my example

---------------------
--------.......--------
O........................O
O........................O
OO...................OO
....OOO.......OOO...
--------.........-------
...TF.................TF..
..........OOOO.........

Notice how no turret is at the enterence. by forcing the skulks to enter to attack, and with turrets strung back inorder to allow them time to get a good lock on any attacking skulk while they have to close its effective. thise planb is also VERY effective against lerks and onos. The only weakness in this design is that fades can still attack and succed with time, but any base without landmines is just a poorly designed base <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

A smaller version of this, using turrets at medium distance inscrease the area they can cover. for example

.........O
.....O....
....TF...
.....O....
O.........

Battousaix · November 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crazy_Dog @ Nov 25 2002, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Every time you plop down your 5 - 6 turrets on a corner you slow the aliens down by just a little bit more plus you have a place to run to if a fade or onos rushes you.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
There´s no point about running away from an onos..... If you see an onos you are dead unless you have a jetpack or a vent next to you, so just face the animal, and shoot avoiding him all that you can untile he torns ya appart, but atleast make him feel the bullets you had =P

Now about the turrets... god damn nice overview, i think that the turrets should be able to shoot trought the tf, but i dont know how much will this make aliens have a harder time.....

Acrobad · November 2002

If you want the turrets to shoot thru the tfac, what's the point of getting rid of the tfac then?

Turrets are not meant to be left alone.

Commanders are meant to tell their troops to reinforce the turrets when they're underattack.

Lazerus · November 2002

oops sorry i misread your post.. hehe

SUSPECT · November 2002

Wow, such an intelligent and well thought up post. Its quite refreshing after reading that flame war of "posters whom obviously didn't even bother to comprehend what others were saying before they responded" thread about the armor bug.

I like the 2 following suggestions as they are the best solution to the problem of supralinear turret placement.

1. Shoot through the TF. Why not? OC's can shoot through a resource chamber, but turrets cannot shoot through the resource tower NOR the TF. This makes it nessecary to add an extra (few) turrets around the resource tower. Fair enough, that is an acceptable basis. But for the turrets to not be able to shoot through the TF makes for as the oringal poster said: weak few turrets. Again being able to shoot thru the TF addresses this problem because the weakness of turrets depending on Tf has been some what reduced (but not eliminated)

2. Revert to 1.0: turrets are able to operate without a TF. This like 1. eliminates the problem of few turrets being too weak.

Note that both of the above solutions do not adress the issue of too many turrets being too strong, which is why the original poster made a change in solution 1 to make each turret cheaper and weaker, thus the effectiveness of the protection of an area vs the number of turrets grows closer to a linear fashion. i.e. By making turrets cheaper and weaker, few turrets will still be weak, but you can afford to put more turrets in one location to cover all the angles and in the end, the effectiveness will be greater then that of few turrets that do more dmg but cannot cover the tf.

So after having said all that, I feel the first solution would be the fairest as in solution 2, too many turrets are still too strong.

I would also like to note in solution 2 can be abused to give an advantage to the marines. That is: build TF, spam turrets, recycle TF, repeat. Its obvious what this can lead to, I will not disect this scenrio as it is obvious how it can be used to an advantage. (Note I did not say "unfair advantage" because each person's def'n of unfair is their own and their own only)

End of part 1....

Being part 2...

To all those who feel the this problem of supralinear turret placement can be addressed by education of proper turret placement (as I have said time and time again, people do not know proper turret placement and sometimes, just dont care to). I claim you are wrong.

The following is a list of some of the possible guidelines for turret placement and an assertion on why it is weak:

1.
Placement: 4 corners around a TF.
Assertion: Like the original poster had already stated, one only needs to take out 2 turrets, and this can be EASILY accomplishe through suicide attacks on the 2 turrets or a far off lerk spiking the 2 turrets.

Placement: TF up against wall, with 3 turrets surrounding (no turrets between wall or TF).
Assertion: Altho in the comm view, it appears as tho you can place a TF snuggly against a wall, it is often not the case as there is an orientation of the TF that is only visible after the placement of the TF, ergo possible gaps for skuls etc. In addition, the bounding box for these buildings are not what it seems. While a TF may LOOK like it is against the wall and nothing can move inbetween the TF and the wall, there are (from personal experience of placing the TF and watching the comm place the TF) many instaces where this fails and a skull IS able to get between the wall and the TF to happily chew the TF down at its leisure.

Placement: TF with 4 turrets right at corners of the TF preventing circle strafing.
Assertion: A skilled skull can actually take into account this the turrets that is SUPPOSE to prevent them from circle strafing (as I have done b4). It isin't easy, but has bee done, and made easier when you have a partner in crime.

Placment: 2 turrets on opposite sides of TF, 2 more turrets on the same side as the other 2 turrets except angled out and further to cover unproteced sides.
Assertion: well I really don't have an assertion for this one because this is a pretty good placement. The only weakness I can come up with is that the turrets further away can (in certain scenerios) NOT benefit from the synergism created by being closer to other turrets that can shoot at the same target.

Anyway, my point with the above placement and assertions is that I feel the above is a work around to the problem. While the 1st 2 solutions address it better, especially the problem of supralinear turret placment.

Like the original poster said, having a finer gradient for number of turrets can give comm much control of how to best spend his resources to secure an area.

End of part 2, I am done.

SUSPECT

QuantumSlip · November 2002

here's a crazy idea: make the turret factory HAVE a built-in gun! problem solved!

Iden · November 2002

While a good post you're forgetting one thing:

So, taking a step back from either side let me state it 'how it is':

Alien chambers in small numbers are weak without backup and 'walls of lame' can only be pased by grenade launchers (33 resources) which can take out any expansion although the nade launcher is way cheaper than the wall just constructed.

Human turrets in small numbers are weak without backup and 'turret farms' are powerful and can only really be destroyed by a fade (44 resources) even though the fade is way cheaper than the turret farm constructed.

A small alien chamber post can be taken down by an unupgraded marine.
A small human turret outpost can be taken down by an unupgraded alien.

First one to note the similiarities between the two get a cookie. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

The Problem With Turrets

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