Gorges get greater share of res?

Chocolate · March 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">Would be nice to have that back</div>Hey,

I was taking a look at some of the topics around this part of the forum and i started to think, what if we bring back the gorges getting more res?

I remember hearing somewhere in these posts that the reason this was removed in 2.0 was because people would just go gorge to get an earlier fade/onos. Considering that there is no res cap per hive, that would happen pretty often. I also heard that it was removed because it became a complicated res system.

<b><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">My Idea</span></b>
My idea specifically tho is something along the lines of a second res pool. Take the marines res system, they have 1 pool of res that 1 man uses. Why dont we put something like that for the aliens too? The aliens would get their normal, individual res system, which is fine. But then part of the res flow, maybe 1/3 of it, would go into a separate pool. When a player becomes a gorge, they are allowed to tap into this pool of res.

This res pool will only be used for structures built by the gorge(s), nothing else in the game can touch it. I'm not sure if it should be a universal pool like the marine team, or should be split up equally to all the gorges as their own individual structure spending res.

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><b>Examples</b></span>

<b>A feel how it would be with it</b>
<img src="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/dmustillo/Idea1.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

<b>After a gorge drops 2 OC's (20 res worth)</b>
<img src="http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/dmustillo/Idea2.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><b>Advantages</b></span>
The advantage of my system is that it is:
1. It can't really be exploited for early fading or onosing
2. It is relatively uncomplicated and not really anything new, the same code for the marines system can be modified to make this one.
3. Perma-Gorges are now possible (yay!) which means even low skilled players can contribute equally now!
4. Less sacrifice going gorge
5. More effective/useful gorges
6. On 16 vs 16 player servers, its possible to stay gorge and be useful because of less time waiting for res
7. More i cant think of...

I hope this is a good idea! If this post has to be removed to the Idea and Suggestions fourm, I dont mind. I think it belongs here because I'm suggesting bringing something back and because more people actually look here <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

Keep it clean and since I dislike unreasoned negativity, don't just say something negative without any good reason.

BAH! Double topic post! ARRR! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

coolstory · March 2007

<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showforum=5" target="_blank">I&S</a>

The last thing NS needs is more OCs in a worthless hallway, thanks. Gorges are fine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>1. It can't really be exploited for early fading or onosing</div>
Someone going fade or onos would be better off not ######ing around in a vent and instead being out on the field getting RFK.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>2. It is relatively uncomplicated and not really anything new, the same code for the marines system can be modified to make this one.</div>
Complication has nothing to do with making your case any better.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>3. Perma-Gorges are now possible (yay!) which means even low skilled players can contribute equally now!</div>
Huh, perma-gorges are already possible. "low skilled players" contributing equally means more DCs in a vent? GREAT.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>4. Less sacrifice going gorge</div>
Going gorge is a sacrafice? Yes, lets make it more of a sacrafise for everyone else!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>5. More effective/useful gorges</div>
Yes, and reduce the res for everyone else. GREAT.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>6. On 16 vs 16 player servers, its possible to stay gorge and be useful because of less time waiting for res</div>
16v16 have different problems. What does having more res change how it's possible to stay gorge longer? They're useful when they're healing lifeforms instead of sitting in a vent spitting West Skylight RT with 3 dcs behind him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>7. More i cant think of...</div>
<span style="color:red">You are welcome to make your side of the argument, you are not allowed to attack or flame the people on the other side of the conversation. - JazzX</span>

Haze · March 2007

<span style="color:red">Leave the moderation to the moderators and don't create responses that are just critiques of how others are posting. - JazzX</span>

pSyk0mAn · March 2007

I completly agree with coolstory.

Having a team of apparently invincible fades/lerk with 100 res is a great example to show where their res overflow goes. In ocs and useless spam, instead of straight into the last chamber, after the 3rd hive is ready.

Permagorging is already possible, you just have to support more in the battle (healing, spitting, meatshield); it's not just about building. Just be defensive and of course you need a good team to survive, then you could even sneak some spit kills to get more res for buildings.

Sarisel · March 2007

The majority of gorges suck. It's nice and all telling people to go and be pro permagorges like Minstrel. But the reality is that most people can't do it. Therefore, make the crappy class more accessible to them and make the game more fun.

Here's why this is a bad idea though: stupid gorges will waste the pooled res on useless or unimportant structures.

If anything, I would suggest an "OC res pool", which will prevent wasting res on useless OCs (as they are right now).

Milo · March 2007

<span style="color:red">If you have nothing to add to a thread but confrontational statements, please save everyone some time and don't post. - JazzX</span>

haymo · March 2007

interesting proposition, but if the team has a decent res flow, I find myself that I don't need any more resources as I will recieve res fairly quickly. And while I'm waiting I can play a harassing/support role. But aside from pub, which I am pretty sure this is aimed towards, in compeitive matches, 6v6, the system at the moment is fine.

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

I, too, think that gorges need some sort of seperate res pool. At least to put up sort of temporary (sp) OC that would die out on its own as soon as it has finished build-up.

Edit:
Excuse my bad interpretation. I meant these short-lived OCs should have a timer, require that other res the OP is talking about.

the_x5 · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarisel @ Mar 25 2007, 01:41 AM) [snapback]1616743[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> The majority of gorges suck. It's nice and all telling people to go and be pro permagorges like Minstrel. But the reality is that most people can't do it. Therefore, make the crappy class more accessible to them and make the game more fun.

Here's why this is a bad idea though: stupid gorges will waste the pooled res on useless or unimportant structures.

If anything, I would suggest an "OC res pool", which will prevent wasting res on useless OCs (as they are right now). </div> Gorge is <i>not</i> a crappy class IMHO. I disagree totally with that Sarisel. I can agree with many gorges being noobish but that's often because most people do not play gorge enough. You never have building resources on larger servers because the resource tick rate is so slow at that scaling so it's no wonder people get bored with gorge.

It's a good idea having gorges use a seperate, but you're right about needing some kind of way to reduce OC spam. Perhaps a slightly higher cost per chamber? I don't know. A hard limit would be bad. If you have the resources you should be able to spend it. OC's are actually very useful defensive stuctures but like most defenses, most don't know how to use them correctly/well.

<span style="color:red">Leave the moderation duties to the moderators. - JazzX</span>

Sarisel · March 2007

Ok, tell me how gorge is not a crappy class? Keeping in mind how most people play it, whenever they do for whatever reason.

SpaceJesus · March 2007

I 1v1'd a shotgunner as gorge in a semifinals match last night and rocked him. Gorge = overpowered.
Seriously I didn't miss a single spit, aimbot style (like 6-7 in a row).

enigma · March 2007

gorges are already overpowered. 30 damage spit? self heal? 150/70?

kyliegirl · March 2007

i dont know what servers half of you play on, but when i play gorge, i can usually take out a fair few marines if i use my energy right.

hell in an ns map i managed to kill 8 marines as a gorge running around 1 of my ocs and killing them.. they arent useless, they just require more work to get used to.. I love being a gorge...

and as for this idea. I would prefer gorges to gain res like they did in 1.0-2.0 where they gained it slightly faster, it helps when your waiting to save for a hive, and being a perma gorge makes it hard to go out for res kills, especially if you want to ensure a hive your in stays empty...

so a few gorges place a few extra oc's.. at least they are contributing to the team by placing defensive systems up.. half the time i notice we lose a map because noone built some oc's to deter marines or prevent them from building inside or near the hive.. if more gorges built an oc somewhere, then less likely marines would be to attack that area.

DC_Darkling · March 2007

Although I DO agree that gorges are being starved this is not the way it should be handled. I actually made a suggestion once I think is a better way. (as with everything I ever suggested I never saw a dev comment. :'( )

Like I said before..

* make res overflow
* make lifeform limits on res. (a skulk can get 100 res, gorge 90, lerk 70, fade 50 and onos 25 for example).

This makes it so that if a good player is fade he works himself up to 50 res, overflows every other res he gets. He hardly dies (he's good) so quickly starts overflowing res for the rest of the team. When he dies he had 50 res left from himself (he can refade) but because death means going back to skulk it also means he gets the 100 res limit making (if possible) 50 res overflow in his rescount.

But like stated, good players hardly die so need a lesser count. Sure.. it may need some tweaking (gorge 100, skulk 90 perhaps?) but you get the general idea.

And for the ones saying this "wastes" res. Well, overflowing res goes nowhere currently so we might aswell make the n00bs enjoy and hope that after the x... try they know how to actually play.

SpaceJesus · March 2007

Res overflow currently goes to other players :< if you have 100res, the resource pool just gives your res to the other players every tick instead of discarding it.

Cxwf · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Mar 25 2007, 08:37 AM) [snapback]1616797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
And for the ones saying this "wastes" res. Well, overflowing res goes nowhere currently so we might aswell make the n00bs enjoy and hope that after the x... try they know how to actually play.
</div>

As Space Jesus said, overflow res is already given out to the rest of your team. Res is never wasted. Even if every member of your team has 100 res, more res <i>still</i> isnt wasted because the Hive just holds on to it until you need it. The moment someone spends some res and gets below 100, the Hive will fill them back up again from its own storage, until the overflow is all gone.

Haze · March 2007

<span style="color:red">Critique the post, not the poster. - JazzX</span>

SpaceJesus · March 2007

<span style="color:red">See previous edit, and stop flaming people. - JazzX</span>

Spooge · March 2007

<span style="color:red">Posting response and critiques of other posts = good. Flaming other posters = bad. - JazzX</span>

DC_Darkling · March 2007

thoughed they removed it a few versions ago.
glad to know its still in.

StixNStonz · March 2007

The idea has merit to it guys. My understanding is that a portion of rt income, not rfk, goes into this Gorge Res Pool, and gorges dropping any structures use that first before their personal res? While it would take away a bit from the players overall, gorges WOULD be far less of a 'sacrifice' class. And it is absolutely a sacrifice. If you can either save your res to become a more powerful alien (who doesnt want to do that), but you actually go gorge and drop an rt, thats a clear sacrifice on your part for your team. This would definitely take away part of the burden of gorging.
While yes, you'd see more structures in general, you'd definitely also see more RTs. Thats the key for aliens; keeping the nodes up. You need a constant flow of sacrificing players, recapping any rts going down and always trying for more.

Harrower · March 2007

I liked a modified version of Kylie's idea from the other thread. Let aliens (only) lifeform based on points from kills, and give everyone 1 point to gorge at the beginning. Then let the res pool be reserved for gorges only. It makes gorges' lives more interesting, keeps the terrible players focused on teamwork instead of whoring res, and gives a feeling of impending doom for the marine side if they keep dying, which might discourage some rambo'ing.

I would really like to see this implemented, even if it were a separate game mode from classic and combat.

[Deleted User] · March 2007

^ thats not a bad idea, but it's quite a big change, something i doubt the devs would be willing to go for.

kamikazegoat · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 25 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]1616832[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I liked a modified version of Kylie's idea from the other thread. Let aliens (only) lifeform based on points from kills, and give everyone 1 point to gorge at the beginning. Then let the res pool be reserved for gorges only. It makes gorges' lives more interesting, keeps the terrible players focused on teamwork instead of whoring res, and gives a feeling of impending doom for the marine side if they keep dying, which might discourage some rambo'ing.

</div>

Thats not a shabby idea at all.

JazzX · March 2007

There are some very interesting ideas being discussed here. Some of it is definitely I&S material, but a lot of the conversation really highlights the role of the Gorge in NS at the moment.

There is also way too much flaming of other posters occurring. Critiquing a post and the ideas it contains is good. Critiquing how someone posts and flaming other users is not. Everyone in this thread knows the difference, so please keep the conversation going, and stop all of the attacks

AlphaWolf · March 2007

I think the idea would be fine if there was some way to prevent somebody from exploiting this by e.g. going gorge, dropping a bunch of useless structures, and then leaving the server. There are asshats out there that like to do this kind of thing. Either that or there are idiots who drop OC's near the hive right at the start of the game, which while not intentionally screwing up the game, manage to do a fine job of it anyways.

But that said, this would be a GOOD way of preventing those situations where the guys with resources on your team are advanced lifeforms (and switching to gorge would waste the resources it costs for that lifeform,) and the ones who aren't have no money to build anything.

This would also solve the problem of people res whoring.

Perhaps what could be done to prevent wasteful spending, is to have it so that after you get 40 res, half of every res you get after that goes into the gorge pool. After you get 100 res, all of your overflow goes into the gorge pool. Then put a cap of like 100 res for the gorge pool, and whatever overflows over that goes back to the players. When a gorge spends money, it uses the gorge pool first, and THEN it uses the money the player has if the gorge pool is empty.

A system like this would make res wh0res be more likely to build early hives or resource towers instead of going straight for fade, making pub games a bit more palatable.

Chocolate · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_Darkling @ Mar 25 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]1616797[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> Although I DO agree that gorges are being starved this is not the way it should be handled. I actually made a suggestion once I think is a better way. (as with everything I ever suggested I never saw a dev comment. :'( )

Like I said before..

* make res overflow
* make lifeform limits on res. (a skulk can get 100 res, gorge 90, lerk 70, fade 50 and onos 25 for example).

This makes it so that if a good player is fade he works himself up to 50 res, overflows every other res he gets. He hardly dies (he's good) so quickly starts overflowing res for the rest of the team. When he dies he had 50 res left from himself (he can refade) but because death means going back to skulk it also means he gets the 100 res limit making (if possible) 50 res overflow in his rescount.

But like stated, good players hardly die so need a lesser count. Sure.. it may need some tweaking (gorge 100, skulk 90 perhaps?) but you get the general idea.

And for the ones saying this "wastes" res. Well, overflowing res goes nowhere currently so we might aswell make the n00bs enjoy and hope that after the x... try they know how to actually play.
</div>
I love the idea. Too many times I see anything above a gorge have +50 res in most matches.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cxwf @ Mar 25 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]1616812[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
As Space Jesus said, overflow res is already given out to the rest of your team. Res is never wasted. Even if every member of your team has 100 res, more res <i>still</i> isnt wasted because the Hive just holds on to it until you need it. The moment someone spends some res and gets below 100, the Hive will fill them back up again from its own storage, until the overflow is all gone. </div>
The thing is is that its not very often that you see a fade get to 100 res, atleast on the bigger servers. They might rack up more than enough res to refade/onos and then die, but the rest of that res is wasted. It basically makes more sence to limit a fade to 50 res so rahter than have that fade get a bunch of res he will never use.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Mar 25 2007, 12:32 PM) [snapback]1616832[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> The idea has merit to it guys. My understanding is that a portion of rt income, not rfk, goes into this Gorge Res Pool, and gorges dropping any structures use that first before their personal res? While it would take away a bit from the players overall, gorges WOULD be far less of a 'sacrifice' class. And it is absolutely a sacrifice. If you can either save your res to become a more powerful alien (who doesnt want to do that), but you actually go gorge and drop an rt, thats a clear sacrifice on your part for your team. This would definitely take away part of the burden of gorging.
While yes, you'd see more structures in general, you'd definitely also see more RTs. Thats the key for aliens; keeping the nodes up. You need a constant flow of sacrificing players, recapping any rts going down and always trying for more. </div>
Perfect analysis of what I'm thinking. It kinda sucks when you drop an RT and then need to stay skulk for the next 5 - 10 minutes until you get res for a fade. Also having more structures insint a bad thing, which reminds me of that "essay" i wrote on OC's

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
The way i see it is that OC spamming isn't technically a bad thing. The spamming part is bad, but having no static defenses isnt really much different in terms of badness. Take the game Starcraft for example, how many times when you play as Terrans do you not build bunkers in your base? How many times do you not put Photon Cannons or Spore Colonies in your base? How often (atleast in later games) do you not have atleast some Wraiths or other units patrolling your borders?

What I'm trying to say is that static defenses are good, because it requires teamwork, planning and working in groups to take down that oh so critical base. Last I checked, those were some of the focuses of NS, or atleast in my mind. While you are gaining time because ninja PG's and rambo's don't work so well, you gain in the fact that you need to work together as 1 to succeed, not one individual person can make a team and having funner games.

Now when I play NS, I often see everyone on my team rambo, maybe about 40% of the time I'm with a group, and thats usually when we take down a hive or go on early game capping runs. I see very often 1 guy goes near their hive, sets up a PG, a beacon fires off, and the whole team rushes in for a swift killing of the hive and a literally immediate GG. Not saying moments like those are bad, but the immediate GG part is.

When swift things like that happens I dont really feel that I've accomplished anything extraordinary or special. I feel that I've just exploited 1 weakness, and boom, I win. Games on NS seem to be like that these days, 1 mistake, end game. In my oppinion, it shouldn't be like that, a alien team who loses 2ed hive should be able to get another hive up atleast unless they are completly and utterly locked down, or be able to do something to the marines besides a scratch. A marine team who loses their PG at the middle of the map should be able to get back onto their feet and take back that PG or something like that.

I'm going to cut my rambling now and make a conclusion. OC's walls aren't very bad, they stop rambo's, bring back some teamwork and force you to take an alternate, slower route, siege the place out or have most of you men take it out. OC walls in every hallway is a little too extreme I admit, but thats not what I'm trying to promote.

Now that i think of it, siege maps give an example of this teamwork stuff, but too a too extreme degree. Most of the conflict happens around 1 spot, there is some opportunity for some run away fade to get behind the lines and kill their rts. The only problem is that their is way too much focused fighting, spamming of everything on siege maps and hard to get past enemy defenses.

(back on track) I personally think those games where you really need to think through whats happening and work together are the funner games. Thats why I stand behind Haze, the_x5, kyilegirl and whoever supports this too.

Now i'm tired of typing about OC's and I'm pretty sure this will be flamed at alot. Probably some of this doesn't make sense, I'm speaking from my point of view. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

Yours truly, Chocolate.
</div>

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reeke @ Mar 25 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]1616855[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> ^ thats not a bad idea, but it's quite a big change, something i doubt the devs would be willing to go for. </div>
Well, its not like reinventing the wheel. They had a system sortof like this in the 1.0x days, so all they would need is that code and a bit of modification. But I agree, it does require a big changing too. Maybe an idea for NS2? I dunno

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JazzX @ Mar 25 2007, 04:42 PM) [snapback]1616867[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> There are some very interesting ideas being discussed here. Some of it is definitely I&S material, but a lot of the conversation really highlights the role of the Gorge in NS at the moment.

There is also way too much flaming of other posters occurring. Critiquing a post and the ideas it contains is good. Critiquing how someone posts and flaming other users is not. Everyone in this thread knows the difference, so please keep the conversation going, and stop all of the attacks
</div>
Yeah, I noticed ALOT of red text modifications on this post <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />. What ever happened to what I wrote at the start of my topic?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>
<u><b>Keep it clean</b></u> and since I dislike unreasoned negativity, don't just say something negative without any good reason.
</div>
Sorry for the wrong place to put this topic <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />, I only realized after I posted the topic (heck, i posted the topic twice!) and also the quality of critiques in this part of the forum is much better than in the I&S.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AlphaWolf @ Mar 25 2007, 07:16 PM) [snapback]1616893[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> I think the idea would be fine if there was some way to prevent somebod.....
</div>
Very good analysis too. Too long to quote fully, but yeah, very good analysis.
There should be some type of limit for those "drop it and leave" guys, but it could just be a individual pool of res for each gorge. And either way you'll get those guys, no matter how much we try they will still exist <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> .

the_x5 · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Mar 25 2007, 04:37 AM) [snapback]1616773[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'> gorges are already overpowered. 30 damage spit? self heal? 150/70? </div>

Give me a shotgun or HMG and we'll see, espeically with weapons upgrades and hand grenades. And if all else fails I <i>will</i> stab you. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

But yes I love gorge and find it is highly underestimated with party with gorges in it can do. I'd like healspray to be the lvl1 hive ability to be honest but maybe that's just me.

Underwhelmed · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Mar 26 2007, 08:25 PM) [snapback]1617179[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Give me a shotgun or HMG and we'll see, espeically with weapons upgrades and hand grenades. And if all else fails I <i>will</i> stab you. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

But yes I love gorge and find it is highly underestimated with party with gorges in it can do. I'd like healspray to be the lvl1 hive ability to be honest but maybe that's just me.
</div>
This might have escaped your attention, but the Gorge is not a combat unit. It should die to a LMG marine at close range easily, and it certainly should not be benchmarked against one with a SG or HMG.

Gorges get greater share of res?

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