OMGWARNING: language More on-topic; LOL, I'll read some more tomorrow, 5.11am. <i>edit: oh come on, it was a link >_></i> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hate to pile on, but I've gotta wonder here too. Oi <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I've never personally played it, but I've always been meaning to and just yesterday I thought up a really cool idea for a character, but wondered just how feasible it actually is. The following is a conversation I had with my friend:
"Basically, a guy that's really high in Dex and Str (I'm thinking Fighter) whose main weapon of choice is small rocks and stones. Basically, in one hand he has a shield to deflect attacks and knock away any bad guys that get too close, and his other hand pulls a stone (small enough to fit in your palm) out of his pouch and then flings it as hard as he can. If he has enough Str (and dex), he should be able to put holes in people's heads and break bones, and if it's not quite that powerful, it still freaking hurts and is freaking awesome.
"Well, it's still a minimally ranged weapon. And if anybody gets too close you're forced to use grapple and unarmed attacks, which makes your AC drop considerably and opens you up majorly. It also means ammo is a huge problem. Not to mention weight (rocks are heavy)."
"What the heck is a shield for then."
"Shield improves AC but also weakens Dex and especially saving throws."
"As complex-looking as the combat system looks, shouldn't there be an option to kick people away?"
"There is. But it provokes an attack of opportunity. Same as unarmed and grapple. And your coup de grace would be WEAK."
"What."
"Coup de grace."
"I know what that is. But if you have, say...I dunno, a Str in the 20's or so, shouldn't you be able to throw a stone really hard? REALLY REALLY hard? With enough velocity to kill a man?"
"If you can aim it, sure. But what I'd do is also boost up Cha and Wis and maybe figure out how to enchant the stones to make them faster. Arcane magic is your friend."
"Bah, that's what the other magically-inclined characters are for. 'Hey, can you enchant this bag of stones?' 'Sure. *Zap* Now they explode on contact!' 'Awwww yeahhhh.' Also, I'd make sure he has some sort of backup weapon if things went wrong."
"Daggers! Spell theif. Kinda. Nah. Hmmm. Lemme look into it. This is a good idea."
"I was thinking a short sword, since, you know, fighter. Unless there's another class that's really awesome in STR and DEX. Ranger, maybe?"
"MONK."
"Oooh!"
"It fits perfectly. It's the Dex and Str needed. And it gets bonuses to unarmed combat, just in case."
"Will monks be okay with using small stones as weapons?"
"If they're cool with kamas...yeah."
"Sounds like the perfect class, then."
"We're totally working on this. Good thinking, man."
"I was just, like, thinking, ya know? What's a really freaking badarse and practical way to kill people? Throwing rocks at them. They're small, easy to carry, and if you run out, well, stones can be easily found almost anywhere."
"And if you have a dwarf in your party, it'd be pretty easy to make tiny rocks. 'Look, a wall! -HAMMER-'"
'Awwww yeahhhh."
So, any comments or critiques? I've never played the game, so I can't really know what works and what doesn't, but if you guys have any suggestions, I'd totally love to make this guy as my first character.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
yah.
Monk.
Basically it would suck horribly at low levels (impossible to get your stats high enough) but as a specifically tailored high level character it would work great <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1620382:date=Apr 11 2007, 06:24 PM:name=Omegaman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Omegaman @ Apr 11 2007, 06:24 PM) [snapback]1620382[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, any comments or critiques? I've never played the game, so I can't really know what works and what doesn't, but if you guys have any suggestions, I'd totally love to make this guy as my first character.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> barbarian --> hulking hurler get a bag of holding and you're set
<!--quoteo(post=1619938:date=Apr 10 2007, 03:03 AM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Apr 10 2007, 03:03 AM) [snapback]1619938[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> me, because i can use my two free hands as natural weapons. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hands don't count as natural weapons for the purposes of feats, for some retarded reason, so you can't get the cool feats that boost their damage. But you can still "two-weapon" fight with them AND flurry if you're a monk. You won't hit anything, sure, but you get tons of attacks.
Also, there's nothing that says you can't "two-weapon" fight with a two-handed weapon and some unarmed attacks thrown in.
Those poisons are pretty lackluster. A level 1 fighter can make a 18 Fort Save with a decent roll, and anybody higher than that is likely to make it all the time. I suppose that, while kukris ARE light, they're also martial, so you're looking at using a feat or springing for a level of fighter just for an 18-20 crit (and losing a level of Rogue is painful, since it's basically losing a die of sneak attack), when you could just <b>use a rapier and dagger</b>, and do more base damage and still have the crit on one hand anyway. Rogues are already proficient with rapiers, too.
My two cents? Don't play a Barbarian. They aren't very good. Then again, neither are monks, but I still play them anyway.
If you want to try something different, play a Paladin (another gimped class, but good roleplaying) or try going Monk/Rogue with the feat "Ascetic Rogue." With that feat, you stack your Rogue and Monk levels for purposes of unarmed damage. So basically, take one level of Monk, then the rest in Rogue, and suddenly you'll be able to kill people with your bare hands very well.
My suggestion? If you're using the Book of Nine Swords, play a Warblade. If not, play a Fighter with a spiked chain, then go into the Exotic Weapon Master PrC so you can flurry with it, tripping just about everybody within 10 feet of you, then raking them. Good times. If you want spells, play a Cleric. Good class.
If you want DAMAGING spells, play a Warmage, if you can float the ability score block that makes them hard to play.
As a DM, I tend to not let players be monster races, especially ones with four arms and stuff, because it just turns them into min/maxing power gamers.
EDIT: Oh wait, you want to be a throwing guy. In that case, Monk/Rogue is ALSO nice, since you can flurry AND two-weapon fight with shurikens. Sure, they only do 1d2 damage, but you can add your sneak attack to each shuriken when appropriate... So at level 7 you're suddenly throwing 3 shurikens a round, each of them doing 1d2+3d6+Str Mod. Fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess who gets more attacks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Guess who has more accuracy? Rogues need all the accuracy they can get.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...yes, you get more attacks, because natural weapons are in no way, shape, or form inferior to manufactured weapons in any way, and they are most certainly not limited to only 1 attack regardless of your BAB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is my main beef with natural weapons. It's like, they do 1d4 damage or so, and at most they get 2 per round. They're just awful, unless you take Nature's Warrior or Warshaper. Their only advantage is that at low levels, they can net you more attacks than other people, but you won't hit anything.
LAST EDIT: Black Mage, care to post attack bonuses on those attacks? You're only posting damage, and damage doesn't matter if you can't hit anything.
attack bonus is level dependent. i just wanted to see how long i could make the damage rule for a standard weapon. (6d6 sneak implies rogue level ~11ish methinks, though)
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
edited April 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1620561:date=Apr 12 2007, 11:20 AM:name=Surge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Surge @ Apr 12 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]1620561[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Guess who has more accuracy? Rogues need all the accuracy they can get. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not a rogue, I'm a warblade. Planning Bloodclaw Master (oh look, no more TWF penalty...) and Bloodstorm Blade (very much fits the character) :edit: and incidently, unless you screw up and don't grab the MWF feat, fighting with 4 light weapons carries no more penalty than fighting with 2
<!--quoteo(post=1619721:date=Apr 9 2007, 06:34 AM:name=Black_Mage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black_Mage @ Apr 9 2007, 06:34 AM) [snapback]1619721[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> for even more roleplay nerdiness (not constrained to d&d or d20) check out the <a href="http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html" target="_blank">975 things Mr. Welch can no longer do in an RPG</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15. Plan B is not automatically twice as much gunpowder as Plan A.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct!
some jobs call for <a href="http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile5.htm" target="_blank">1.5kg of C-12</a>.
And when that fails, there is always plan C: <a href="http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile8.htm" target="_blank">30kg of C-12</a>
for those of you that are not familiar with <a href="http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/index.php3" target="_blank">The CLUE files</a> They are a collection of incredibly dumb things people have done during Shadow Run games.
I suppose. But don't forget that making multiple attacks requires a Full Attack, which Rogues won't usually have in the first round of combat, since they'll probably charge if they win initiative, so they can get their sneak attack.
Also, you can't make full-round actions in the Surprise Round, and in our group, many combats are over before the 1st or 2nd round is over, due to the large amount of Warblades and Ninjas that like to charge and deal incredible amounts of d6's of damage.
What I'm saying is, the four-armed rogue thing is pretty neat, but you have to remember you won't always get more than one attack. Not to mention your DM might not allow a race like that (I know I wouldn't). Plus, if it has a level adjustment or monster levels, you're looking at less sneak attack.
Also, Warblades are great. I just wish they didn't almost make Fighters obsolete. Personally, I would disallow them in a game I ran in my campaign setting, since the sublime way doesn't exist in it. I'm in a game right now, and I'm playing a Crusader. They're a fun class. They don't have a ton of maneuvers like the swordsage, and they lack some power like the Warblade, but they have some great unique abilities that make up for it (how would you like to do +8d8 damage for fun?). Plus, if you have Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, if you take damage, your damage storage bonus-to-hit-and-damage ability (Furious Counterstrike I think) can net you even more damage. For example, if you gain a +1 to hit/damage with your furious counterstrike, you can power attack for 1 and get a total of +3 damage at effectively no penalty to hit.
You can bet that's what I'm doing in this game. It's great. I obviously use a maul.
EDIT: That 975 things Mr Welch Can't Do list is great. The Shadowrun ones are hilarious, as are the D&D ones.
NEO_PhyteWe need shirtgons!Join Date: 2003-12-16Member: 24453Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1620637:date=Apr 12 2007, 08:59 PM:name=Surge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Surge @ Apr 12 2007, 08:59 PM) [snapback]1620637[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention your DM might not allow a race like that (I know I wouldn't). Plus, if it has a level adjustment or monster levels, you're looking at less sneak attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aye, theres an LA and some racial HD. Its the only player race I can think of that has both. (Note: Not a creature that happens to include information for PC use, but a listed option in the Races chapter of the Expanded Psionics Handbook) That said, its understandable that some would disallow it, even with its player race status.
Comments
<!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->*NUKED*. Language. You knew better to start with. -Talesin<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
OMGWARNING: language
More on-topic; LOL, I'll read some more tomorrow, 5.11am.
<i>edit: oh come on, it was a link >_></i>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously Talesin?
Seriously?
Seriously Talesin?
Seriously?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hate to pile on, but I've gotta wonder here too. Oi <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I've never personally played it, but I've always been meaning to and just yesterday I thought up a really cool idea for a character, but wondered just how feasible it actually is. The following is a conversation I had with my friend:
"Basically, a guy that's really high in Dex and Str (I'm thinking Fighter) whose main weapon of choice is small rocks and stones. Basically, in one hand he has a shield to deflect attacks and knock away any bad guys that get too close, and his other hand pulls a stone (small enough to fit in your palm) out of his pouch and then flings it as hard as he can. If he has enough Str (and dex), he should be able to put holes in people's heads and break bones, and if it's not quite that powerful, it still freaking hurts and is freaking awesome.
"Well, it's still a minimally ranged weapon. And if anybody gets too close you're forced to use grapple and unarmed attacks, which makes your AC drop considerably and opens you up majorly. It also means ammo is a huge problem. Not to mention weight (rocks are heavy)."
"What the heck is a shield for then."
"Shield improves AC but also weakens Dex and especially saving throws."
"As complex-looking as the combat system looks, shouldn't there be an option to kick people away?"
"There is. But it provokes an attack of opportunity. Same as unarmed and grapple. And your coup de grace would be WEAK."
"What."
"Coup de grace."
"I know what that is. But if you have, say...I dunno, a Str in the 20's or so, shouldn't you be able to throw a stone really hard? REALLY REALLY hard? With enough velocity to kill a man?"
"If you can aim it, sure. But what I'd do is also boost up Cha and Wis and maybe figure out how to enchant the stones to make them faster. Arcane magic is your friend."
"Bah, that's what the other magically-inclined characters are for. 'Hey, can you enchant this bag of stones?' 'Sure. *Zap* Now they explode on contact!' 'Awwww yeahhhh.' Also, I'd make sure he has some sort of backup weapon if things went wrong."
"Daggers!
Spell theif.
Kinda.
Nah.
Hmmm.
Lemme look into it.
This is a good idea."
"I was thinking a short sword, since, you know, fighter. Unless there's another class that's really awesome in STR and DEX. Ranger, maybe?"
"MONK."
"Oooh!"
"It fits perfectly. It's the Dex and Str needed. And it gets bonuses to unarmed combat, just in case."
"Will monks be okay with using small stones as weapons?"
"If they're cool with kamas...yeah."
"Sounds like the perfect class, then."
"We're totally working on this.
Good thinking, man."
"I was just, like, thinking, ya know? What's a really freaking badarse and practical way to kill people? Throwing rocks at them. They're small, easy to carry, and if you run out, well, stones can be easily found almost anywhere."
"And if you have a dwarf in your party, it'd be pretty easy to make tiny rocks. 'Look, a wall! -HAMMER-'"
'Awwww yeahhhh."
So, any comments or critiques? I've never played the game, so I can't really know what works and what doesn't, but if you guys have any suggestions, I'd totally love to make this guy as my first character.
Monk.
Basically it would suck horribly at low levels (impossible to get your stats high enough) but as a specifically tailored high level character it would work great <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
barbarian --> hulking hurler
get a bag of holding and you're set
me, because i can use my two free hands as natural weapons.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hands don't count as natural weapons for the purposes of feats, for some retarded reason, so you can't get the cool feats that boost their damage. But you can still "two-weapon" fight with them AND flurry if you're a monk. You won't hit anything, sure, but you get tons of attacks.
Also, there's nothing that says you can't "two-weapon" fight with a two-handed weapon and some unarmed attacks thrown in.
Those poisons are pretty lackluster. A level 1 fighter can make a 18 Fort Save with a decent roll, and anybody higher than that is likely to make it all the time. I suppose that, while kukris ARE light, they're also martial, so you're looking at using a feat or springing for a level of fighter just for an 18-20 crit (and losing a level of Rogue is painful, since it's basically losing a die of sneak attack), when you could just <b>use a rapier and dagger</b>, and do more base damage and still have the crit on one hand anyway. Rogues are already proficient with rapiers, too.
My two cents? Don't play a Barbarian. They aren't very good. Then again, neither are monks, but I still play them anyway.
If you want to try something different, play a Paladin (another gimped class, but good roleplaying) or try going Monk/Rogue with the feat "Ascetic Rogue." With that feat, you stack your Rogue and Monk levels for purposes of unarmed damage. So basically, take one level of Monk, then the rest in Rogue, and suddenly you'll be able to kill people with your bare hands very well.
My suggestion? If you're using the Book of Nine Swords, play a Warblade. If not, play a Fighter with a spiked chain, then go into the Exotic Weapon Master PrC so you can flurry with it, tripping just about everybody within 10 feet of you, then raking them. Good times. If you want spells, play a Cleric. Good class.
If you want DAMAGING spells, play a Warmage, if you can float the ability score block that makes them hard to play.
As a DM, I tend to not let players be monster races, especially ones with four arms and stuff, because it just turns them into min/maxing power gamers.
EDIT: Oh wait, you want to be a throwing guy. In that case, Monk/Rogue is ALSO nice, since you can flurry AND two-weapon fight with shurikens. Sure, they only do 1d2 damage, but you can add your sneak attack to each shuriken when appropriate... So at level 7 you're suddenly throwing 3 shurikens a round, each of them doing 1d2+3d6+Str Mod. Fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guess who gets more attacks?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess who has more accuracy? Rogues need all the accuracy they can get.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...yes, you get more attacks, because natural weapons are in no way, shape, or form inferior to manufactured weapons in any way, and they are most certainly not limited to only 1 attack regardless of your BAB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is my main beef with natural weapons. It's like, they do 1d4 damage or so, and at most they get 2 per round. They're just awful, unless you take Nature's Warrior or Warshaper. Their only advantage is that at low levels, they can net you more attacks than other people, but you won't hit anything.
LAST EDIT: Black Mage, care to post attack bonuses on those attacks? You're only posting damage, and damage doesn't matter if you can't hit anything.
Guess who has more accuracy? Rogues need all the accuracy they can get.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not a rogue, I'm a warblade. Planning Bloodclaw Master (oh look, no more TWF penalty...) and Bloodstorm Blade (very much fits the character)
:edit: and incidently, unless you screw up and don't grab the MWF feat, fighting with 4 light weapons carries no more penalty than fighting with 2
for even more roleplay nerdiness (not constrained to d&d or d20) check out the <a href="http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html" target="_blank">975 things Mr. Welch can no longer do in an RPG</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG ROFLMAO XDDD
CAN'T BREATH!! XDDD
Correct!
some jobs call for <a href="http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile5.htm" target="_blank">1.5kg of C-12</a>.
And when that fails, there is always plan C:
<a href="http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile8.htm" target="_blank">30kg of C-12</a>
for those of you that are not familiar with <a href="http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/index.php3" target="_blank">The CLUE files</a> They are a collection of incredibly dumb things people have done during Shadow Run games.
Also, you can't make full-round actions in the Surprise Round, and in our group, many combats are over before the 1st or 2nd round is over, due to the large amount of Warblades and Ninjas that like to charge and deal incredible amounts of d6's of damage.
What I'm saying is, the four-armed rogue thing is pretty neat, but you have to remember you won't always get more than one attack. Not to mention your DM might not allow a race like that (I know I wouldn't). Plus, if it has a level adjustment or monster levels, you're looking at less sneak attack.
Also, Warblades are great. I just wish they didn't almost make Fighters obsolete. Personally, I would disallow them in a game I ran in my campaign setting, since the sublime way doesn't exist in it. I'm in a game right now, and I'm playing a Crusader. They're a fun class. They don't have a ton of maneuvers like the swordsage, and they lack some power like the Warblade, but they have some great unique abilities that make up for it (how would you like to do +8d8 damage for fun?). Plus, if you have Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, if you take damage, your damage storage bonus-to-hit-and-damage ability (Furious Counterstrike I think) can net you even more damage. For example, if you gain a +1 to hit/damage with your furious counterstrike, you can power attack for 1 and get a total of +3 damage at effectively no penalty to hit.
You can bet that's what I'm doing in this game. It's great. I obviously use a maul.
EDIT: That 975 things Mr Welch Can't Do list is great. The Shadowrun ones are hilarious, as are the D&D ones.
Aye, theres an LA and some racial HD. Its the only player race I can think of that has both. (Note: Not a creature that happens to include information for PC use, but a listed option in the Races chapter of the Expanded Psionics Handbook)
That said, its understandable that some would disallow it, even with its player race status.