TWG XIII Host Elections
Isamil
Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23552Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23552Members, Constellation
Vote for one of the following three game plans for TWG XIII. The election will stop when it appears that one person has the majority of the votes, and they will be declared the winner.
Remember to <b>bold</b> your vote.
<b>EMP Demon</b>
Seeing as how everyone wants to go for crazy-ish games...
Player count: 12
Wolf count: 3
Human roles: Psychic, Guardian
Guardian has the previous 2/3 reduction to consecutive guards on the same person.
Based off im_lost's suggestion of not using a seer at all.
<b>Eternaly_Lost </b>
Roles: Only I know what is in the game. Every player will only know what they are. Except wolfs, they know who each other is.
Game Size: 12+ people, signups will be for 12 people, but if more want on before the game starts they will be added. Wolfs will make up somewhere between ¼ and 1/3 all the player. So if there was only 12 people there could be 3 or 4 wolfs.
List of possible wolf buffs. Wolfs get to pick 2 of these, only they know what they are.
First wolf that dies come back to life after 2 days.
First seering on a wolf team member will result in failed seering.
Each seering done by the seer has a 10% chance of failing.
Wolfs can get an extra kill one night.
Wolfs can convert one person at any time after game starts.
Wolfs will be told when all seers are dead, in the event of no seers in game, they will be told so at the start.
Wolfs will be told when all psychics are dead, in the event of no psyhic in game, they will be told so at the start.
List of possible roles, Note People can get more then 1 role, so long as they do not conflict with the team, So no seer wizards, limit on roles, no more than 33% of the people can be the same role. So if there are 12 people, there will be no more then 4 seers, and no less than 0. (You can’t have less than 0 roles J ), unless otherwise noted.
Seer: see all other seers, if any, as wolfs.
Guardian: Can guard same person over and over, but each time success rate is reduced 50%, for each successful guard.
Psychic: The only one who could know how many wolfs there are.
Priest: Normal.
Psychopath: He wins if only psychopaths are a live, and can sense how many there are. This will be limited to 2.
Lovers, 2 or 3 people if in game. Lovers if 3 are a triangle, and will only die if the one of the other 2 does. So if a, b, and c are lovers, if a dies, b does but c lives. If b dies, c does, but a lives. Only I know who is paired up with whom.
Wizard, 0 or 1 could be too crazy otherwise.
Hunter 0 or 1.
Mafia
Angel, only if mafia.
Vigilante
Detective, can tell what killed any dead person.
Forensic Specialist.
Vampire: A wolf that can be resurrected, after he dies, once.
Escape artist: A human that can escape death twice.
I think that is all the roles I will have in my game.
Now for the mini game.
It will be a search for a hidden treasure mini game.
People will move around a cave, searching for hidden treasure. There is treasure hidden in several rooms. Each treasure can do something, and each player can hold only one treasure at a time. If they come across a second treasure then they can take one. People can drop their treasures whenever, and can give them to any other person in the room they are in with.
When a person dies, they will drop their treasure where they die.
<b>Withdrawn</b>
<strike><b>Theslan</b>
Suggested size: 18
# of humans : 14
# of wolves : 4
Smaller suggested size: 14
# of humans : 11
# of wolves : 3
Roles:
- Seer: normal.
- Psychic: normal.
- Guardian: normal. Guardian is allowed to guard anyone he likes.
Minigame:
This is similar to Freak83's minigame. There will be clues scattered around the area, which everyone can go looking for them. There will be 6 clues, and it might be possible to solve the clues without needing all of them.
Each night, everyone is allowed to 'guess' the clues. They only get one guess. I will take the first guess (all other guesses are ignored).
The one who guesses it right will have mayor-like powers. They have one chance to kill anyone they want during the night or day. If they use their powers during the day, it is considered instantlynch and the day ends right then. There will be a specific format (disclosed to the winner) on how to announce they want to use the power during the day.
These are the movement/commands you can do per night. You can either [2 move] (move two rooms), [1 move, 1 search] (move into a room and search), or [search room] (search the room you are in). If two people searches in the same room with a clue, the clue will be revealed to only one of them. This means you have 100% chance finding a clue in a room if you are alone, 50% chance if there are 2 people, 33% chance with 3, and so on.
There will be at least 2 clues that will be in the form of refrigator magnets (You know, those words you stick on the fridge?) If someone finds the clue, they have the choice to mix up the words, or add in words from the selection. For instance, if Bob found the clue, it says:
"The candlestick is the murderer weapon. (Extras: [not] [happy] [a] [is] [clown] [Ballroom] [toy])"
Now, Bob decides he doesn't like how the words are, so he can mix them up. Now, Bob made the message as:
"The clown murderer is not happy candlestick is a Ballroom weapon. (Extras: [toy])"
Obviously, this makes it extremely hard to figure out the original clue, so it is restricted to 2 changes (add/remove/replace) per night.
NOTE: Scattered around the minigame are 'miniartifacts' which will help the minigame, or the actual game. Here are the artifacts:
- GPS system: Person who gets this will be able to see every player's movement on the map. (Note, player movements will not be shown on the map like in Freak83's game. Players will be able to know who's in the same room as they are)
- Magnifying glass: Person who gets this will have investigator-like abilities. They will be able to search the clues 100% of the time if the clue is in the same room as the person.
- Seer's Eightball(2): Person will be able to decipher the original message from the refrigator magnet. This is a one-time use. There are 2 of them.
- Seer's curse: Person who gets this will automatically switch sides for seering. This means if a human gets it, he will appear to look like a wolf. If a wolf gets it... he will appear to look like a human. Psychic powers are not affected. The person who gets it will be notified about the change.
- Scalpel: Person who gets this will start to have the forensic specialist ability, described in different TWG games. They will be able to investigate the dead person's body and find the person's role, if they choose that night. Be forewarned, the wolves will be allowed to watch a body everyday. If they choose the same body as the specialist, they also learn the role of the dead person.
**** WOLVES *****
Wolves now have the power the choose their abilities. There are 5 powers that they can choose from, and they are only allowed one of them:
1) Mark of the wolf (converted): During the first night, they are allowed to choose another player and convert them to be a wolf.
2) Befuddled minds (2): During the night, they can choose a player and BLOCK their ability. If this is the seer/psychic/guardian, it gets blocked. If they choose a human, it blocks nothing and is wasted. They can only do this 2 times. They will be informed if they have blocked a seer/psychic/guardian (it'll be announced that they have blocked a special role successfully).
3) Transparent minds (4): During the night, they can choose a player and listen into their minds. This could be the psychic/seer. Guardian is not affected by this. They can only do this 4 times.
4) Wolf sixth sense: Similar to Isamil's game, the wolves will be able to detect if a seer is looking at them, and if the psychic died.
5) Bloodlust Howl: Wolves gets to choose one night where all human powers, including artifacts, do not work. However, they must choose the particular night on Night 1/Day 1, or it does not work. (Ie, wolves choose Night 3 to do the howl during Night 1).
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Ok! So now some questions/answers.
Q: What happens to the artifacts if the person gets lynch/wolved/mayor-killed?
A: All artifacts will be dropped in that room, and considered fair game to be picked up. The only exception is the mayor ability: if the person dies, that artifact is lost forever.
Q: What happens if someone searches in a room where there is both an artifact and clue? What happens?
A: If he is alone, he has a 50% chance getting the clue or artifact. If there are 2 people, one will get the clue, one will get the artifact. If there are 3, one person won't get anything.
Q: How can you tell if you don't get a clue in a room?
A: If you are alone and don't get a clue, you are 100% sure there is no clue in the room. If there is another player in the room, it is possible you missed the clue and the other player got it. The only person who will be able to tell if there is no clue in the room is the investigator.
Q: So, how does the investigator work with a clue and artifact in the same room?
A: This is tricky; the investigator will get the clue first. He will not be able to get the artifact.
Q: Is it possible for a person to have multiple artifacts?
A: Yes.
Q: Magnet clues and investigator.
A: If the clue is modified, the investigator will get the modified clue. Only the person with the Seer eight-ball will be able to find out.
Q: What happens if wolves does not give a name of a dead body to spy upon?
A: Wolves do not get a random.org pick a dead body. That night, the wolves are lazy and therefore did not spy on any dead body.
Q: What happens if wolves choose the dead body and kills the specialist on the same night?
A: Wolves gets the role of the dead body and kills the specialist.
Q: What happens if the mayor decides at night to use its powers on the same night as bloodlust howl?
A: Well, the mayor gets unlucky. It doesn't work, AND the power is gone.</strike>
<b>End Of Choices</b>
Vote now! You must be 4 or older to vote in this official TWG election.
Remember to <b>bold</b> your vote.
<b>EMP Demon</b>
Seeing as how everyone wants to go for crazy-ish games...
Player count: 12
Wolf count: 3
Human roles: Psychic, Guardian
Guardian has the previous 2/3 reduction to consecutive guards on the same person.
Based off im_lost's suggestion of not using a seer at all.
<b>Eternaly_Lost </b>
Roles: Only I know what is in the game. Every player will only know what they are. Except wolfs, they know who each other is.
Game Size: 12+ people, signups will be for 12 people, but if more want on before the game starts they will be added. Wolfs will make up somewhere between ¼ and 1/3 all the player. So if there was only 12 people there could be 3 or 4 wolfs.
List of possible wolf buffs. Wolfs get to pick 2 of these, only they know what they are.
First wolf that dies come back to life after 2 days.
First seering on a wolf team member will result in failed seering.
Each seering done by the seer has a 10% chance of failing.
Wolfs can get an extra kill one night.
Wolfs can convert one person at any time after game starts.
Wolfs will be told when all seers are dead, in the event of no seers in game, they will be told so at the start.
Wolfs will be told when all psychics are dead, in the event of no psyhic in game, they will be told so at the start.
List of possible roles, Note People can get more then 1 role, so long as they do not conflict with the team, So no seer wizards, limit on roles, no more than 33% of the people can be the same role. So if there are 12 people, there will be no more then 4 seers, and no less than 0. (You can’t have less than 0 roles J ), unless otherwise noted.
Seer: see all other seers, if any, as wolfs.
Guardian: Can guard same person over and over, but each time success rate is reduced 50%, for each successful guard.
Psychic: The only one who could know how many wolfs there are.
Priest: Normal.
Psychopath: He wins if only psychopaths are a live, and can sense how many there are. This will be limited to 2.
Lovers, 2 or 3 people if in game. Lovers if 3 are a triangle, and will only die if the one of the other 2 does. So if a, b, and c are lovers, if a dies, b does but c lives. If b dies, c does, but a lives. Only I know who is paired up with whom.
Wizard, 0 or 1 could be too crazy otherwise.
Hunter 0 or 1.
Mafia
Angel, only if mafia.
Vigilante
Detective, can tell what killed any dead person.
Forensic Specialist.
Vampire: A wolf that can be resurrected, after he dies, once.
Escape artist: A human that can escape death twice.
I think that is all the roles I will have in my game.
Now for the mini game.
It will be a search for a hidden treasure mini game.
People will move around a cave, searching for hidden treasure. There is treasure hidden in several rooms. Each treasure can do something, and each player can hold only one treasure at a time. If they come across a second treasure then they can take one. People can drop their treasures whenever, and can give them to any other person in the room they are in with.
When a person dies, they will drop their treasure where they die.
<b>Withdrawn</b>
<strike><b>Theslan</b>
Suggested size: 18
# of humans : 14
# of wolves : 4
Smaller suggested size: 14
# of humans : 11
# of wolves : 3
Roles:
- Seer: normal.
- Psychic: normal.
- Guardian: normal. Guardian is allowed to guard anyone he likes.
Minigame:
This is similar to Freak83's minigame. There will be clues scattered around the area, which everyone can go looking for them. There will be 6 clues, and it might be possible to solve the clues without needing all of them.
Each night, everyone is allowed to 'guess' the clues. They only get one guess. I will take the first guess (all other guesses are ignored).
The one who guesses it right will have mayor-like powers. They have one chance to kill anyone they want during the night or day. If they use their powers during the day, it is considered instantlynch and the day ends right then. There will be a specific format (disclosed to the winner) on how to announce they want to use the power during the day.
These are the movement/commands you can do per night. You can either [2 move] (move two rooms), [1 move, 1 search] (move into a room and search), or [search room] (search the room you are in). If two people searches in the same room with a clue, the clue will be revealed to only one of them. This means you have 100% chance finding a clue in a room if you are alone, 50% chance if there are 2 people, 33% chance with 3, and so on.
There will be at least 2 clues that will be in the form of refrigator magnets (You know, those words you stick on the fridge?) If someone finds the clue, they have the choice to mix up the words, or add in words from the selection. For instance, if Bob found the clue, it says:
"The candlestick is the murderer weapon. (Extras: [not] [happy] [a] [is] [clown] [Ballroom] [toy])"
Now, Bob decides he doesn't like how the words are, so he can mix them up. Now, Bob made the message as:
"The clown murderer is not happy candlestick is a Ballroom weapon. (Extras: [toy])"
Obviously, this makes it extremely hard to figure out the original clue, so it is restricted to 2 changes (add/remove/replace) per night.
NOTE: Scattered around the minigame are 'miniartifacts' which will help the minigame, or the actual game. Here are the artifacts:
- GPS system: Person who gets this will be able to see every player's movement on the map. (Note, player movements will not be shown on the map like in Freak83's game. Players will be able to know who's in the same room as they are)
- Magnifying glass: Person who gets this will have investigator-like abilities. They will be able to search the clues 100% of the time if the clue is in the same room as the person.
- Seer's Eightball(2): Person will be able to decipher the original message from the refrigator magnet. This is a one-time use. There are 2 of them.
- Seer's curse: Person who gets this will automatically switch sides for seering. This means if a human gets it, he will appear to look like a wolf. If a wolf gets it... he will appear to look like a human. Psychic powers are not affected. The person who gets it will be notified about the change.
- Scalpel: Person who gets this will start to have the forensic specialist ability, described in different TWG games. They will be able to investigate the dead person's body and find the person's role, if they choose that night. Be forewarned, the wolves will be allowed to watch a body everyday. If they choose the same body as the specialist, they also learn the role of the dead person.
**** WOLVES *****
Wolves now have the power the choose their abilities. There are 5 powers that they can choose from, and they are only allowed one of them:
1) Mark of the wolf (converted): During the first night, they are allowed to choose another player and convert them to be a wolf.
2) Befuddled minds (2): During the night, they can choose a player and BLOCK their ability. If this is the seer/psychic/guardian, it gets blocked. If they choose a human, it blocks nothing and is wasted. They can only do this 2 times. They will be informed if they have blocked a seer/psychic/guardian (it'll be announced that they have blocked a special role successfully).
3) Transparent minds (4): During the night, they can choose a player and listen into their minds. This could be the psychic/seer. Guardian is not affected by this. They can only do this 4 times.
4) Wolf sixth sense: Similar to Isamil's game, the wolves will be able to detect if a seer is looking at them, and if the psychic died.
5) Bloodlust Howl: Wolves gets to choose one night where all human powers, including artifacts, do not work. However, they must choose the particular night on Night 1/Day 1, or it does not work. (Ie, wolves choose Night 3 to do the howl during Night 1).
-----------------------------------------------------
Ok! So now some questions/answers.
Q: What happens to the artifacts if the person gets lynch/wolved/mayor-killed?
A: All artifacts will be dropped in that room, and considered fair game to be picked up. The only exception is the mayor ability: if the person dies, that artifact is lost forever.
Q: What happens if someone searches in a room where there is both an artifact and clue? What happens?
A: If he is alone, he has a 50% chance getting the clue or artifact. If there are 2 people, one will get the clue, one will get the artifact. If there are 3, one person won't get anything.
Q: How can you tell if you don't get a clue in a room?
A: If you are alone and don't get a clue, you are 100% sure there is no clue in the room. If there is another player in the room, it is possible you missed the clue and the other player got it. The only person who will be able to tell if there is no clue in the room is the investigator.
Q: So, how does the investigator work with a clue and artifact in the same room?
A: This is tricky; the investigator will get the clue first. He will not be able to get the artifact.
Q: Is it possible for a person to have multiple artifacts?
A: Yes.
Q: Magnet clues and investigator.
A: If the clue is modified, the investigator will get the modified clue. Only the person with the Seer eight-ball will be able to find out.
Q: What happens if wolves does not give a name of a dead body to spy upon?
A: Wolves do not get a random.org pick a dead body. That night, the wolves are lazy and therefore did not spy on any dead body.
Q: What happens if wolves choose the dead body and kills the specialist on the same night?
A: Wolves gets the role of the dead body and kills the specialist.
Q: What happens if the mayor decides at night to use its powers on the same night as bloodlust howl?
A: Well, the mayor gets unlucky. It doesn't work, AND the power is gone.</strike>
<b>End Of Choices</b>
Vote now! You must be 4 or older to vote in this official TWG election.
Comments
Theslan's idea was interesting though. It reminded me very much of Clue. =P EMP Demon's was also nice because of simplicity.
It's radically different and yet simple -- kind of like what you do when playtesting.
I like the randomness of E_Lost's game, and with the addition of other roles it should give more people a chance of beign able to do something interesting (one of the problems that I see is that regular humans sorta get left outta the mix often). The chance of no seer is kinda worrying, but there are enough other possible roles to make it interesting. Also, even if there is no seer, the humans (and possibly the wolves) DON'T know it, thus still leading to conversations. Also, a quick look over the wolf buffs, I first thought they would be to powerful (2 kills in one night), however it isn't that bad. even with 2 kills the game would run 2 or 4 days (depending on the number of wolves, and it could go longer if the humans get a wolf kill). The mini game is ok, nothing to spark conversation early on though, however the random rolls should do that.
Theslan's looks interesting, and the minigame should spark some conversation Day 1. however I think there is a problem with so many players, we have not been getting enough players as of late.
So, I am voting for <b>Eternaly_Lost</b>
I like Theslan's idea, its a little complex tho.
I like Eternally Lost's idea but its still a little complex.
I'm in favor for a mostly regular game so I can learn the tricks of the game a little better and easier. I like the no seer idea... I think it would mess up the balance a bit, which is good and bad. People will think twice before posting but it could end up with the humans having little to go on. Maybe a no psychic would be less dramatic idea if we were to remove a role and balance it out?
Eternaly Lost's game seems a bit crazy. Kind of reminds me of my game, though it's crazy in a different way.
Another game with a clue-like minigame would be interesting, especially with more craziness added to it.
I don't plan to vote for any of the games (maybe I will if a tiebreaker vote is needed), but I plan to play in whichever game wins.
EMP Demon-3
If it truly isn't my place to put out a vote, then disregard my post.
I personally think that the complete lack of a seer would be far to large a bonus to wolves, and make the game relatively uninteresting to the humans. The only info they can have is the number of wolves remaining, so all the wolves have to do is just act completely like humans (random.org their votes each night) and the game would end shortly with no real excitement. There is nothing to talk about if there isn't the chance of a human finding a wolf 100% for sure (aka seering them).
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What?! Have the human not won <i>EVERY</i> single game? And what the heck do you mean "all the wolves have to do is just act completely like humans"? ALL?! Dude, that's they whole point of what makes this game interesting, no? Who can you trust? Who do you not trust? Why? You are a wolf, how do you not appear suspicious? You are a human, how do you find the wolves without mistakenly allying with one.
I agree a "guard" and a "priest" role in humans would be helpful, but the seer is definitely in my opinion the reason humans always seem to win. If we had just one game without the seer and found that the game was a lot closer or the close but the wolves won, that'd mean we've done much better for balancing the game.
Being new to the place, I'm unsure whether or not I should even participate. Even so, if I were to participate in one of these, I'd be happy to try out <b>EMP Demon</b>'s.
If it truly isn't my place to put out a vote, then disregard my post.
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Just curious, how did you hear about TWG here? I noticed you turned up in #ns-twg at the end of the last game, and your forum account was created on the same day. Since your only post is in this thread, I'm guessing you know someone else here. I'm mostly asking because of the 100-post requirement that Freak83 put in the rules, which is typically ignored because someone that fits the criteria can vouch for them.
Vote count
EMP Demon (3 or 4) - Petco, the_x5, Chocolate, (Araithe ?)
Eternaly Lost (3) - Ana, Thansal, Xentor
Just curious, how did you hear about TWG here? I noticed you turned up in #ns-twg at the end of the last game, and your forum account was created on the same day. Since your only post is in this thread, I'm guessing you know someone else here. I'm mostly asking because of the 100-post requirement that Freak83 put in the rules, which is typically ignored because someone that fits the criteria can vouch for them.
Vote count
EMP Demon (3 or 4) - Petco, the_x5, Chocolate, (Araithe ?)
Eternaly Lost (3) - Ana, Thansal, Xentor
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I can explain that; Araithe's one of my few RL friends whom I told about the game when we were trying to get players for TWG X. I don't exactly know the reasoning behind the vote, but I guess my AIM message of "I'm dead, I'm dead, I'm DEAD" during the last game reminded Araithe of it and decided to look it up.
I don't know exactly, I don't LIVE with my friends. *rolls eyes*
First up:
<!--quoteo(post=1621562:date=Apr 17 2007, 06:53 PM:name=im_lost)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(im_lost @ Apr 17 2007, 06:53 PM) [snapback]1621562[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think EMP Demon's game could work just fine. I know the seer has dominated the last several games (very decisively in the last two, and quite a bit in the previous game as well), but a seer isn't needed for the humans to do well. Look back at TWG I if you want an example (after the seer and guardian died without making any noticeable contribution, the psychic barely pulled out a human win).
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I looked back at TWG I. the seer didn't die untill night 4, and he had created a rather good human network by that point, heck there were only 2 people you were unsure of before the seer died, so I would say that worked out well.
Now, for x5.
In other games wolves CAN sit back and try and jsut let things slide by, hope that the seer either doesn't find them or can't form a network, OR the wolves can actively try and mess things up. Fake seer ploys, fake psychic to discredit the seer, etc etc etc.
With out a seer there is NO reason to pm people, as noone has any real info exept the wolves. Some one claiming that they have info is obviously lieing as they don't have any info. Sure, the psychic knows when you have offed a wolf, but that doesn't really help much if the wolves have any intelegence. All the wolves need to do is sit back and random.org their votes, don't try and team up against any one, and sit back and let probability win the game for them.
IT also removes tools from the wolves' arsonal. They CAN'T pull a fake seer, and there is almost no reason to pull a fake psychic. Just act human, it isn't that hard (literaly play as if you were a human, disreguard your knowledge and try your hardest to kill "wolves").
BTW, everyone is hung up on the fact that "humans always win", the last 3 games have been own to pure dumb luck tbh. Last game If I had been a wolf the seer would have been dead night 2, game before that if TMM either hadn't approached Aldaris, or if TMM was a wolf then the seer would have likely died day 1.
In TWGX it was down to the artifact that wolves lost, and the humans were at a big disadvantage on getting the artifact (inability to safely share clues). Hell, they had all the clues by the night that im_lost got the artifact. (though I think that im_lost had the knowledge before the got the last 2 clues, not sure).
TBH, I tihnk that TWG X was the best game I have seen (I have not read through all of them yet my self). The most participation, the closest, and some of the best wolf ploys (their
I still don't think that the game is as unbalanced as every one thinks it is. I think the problem is inexperianced wolves, and experianced players always getting seered (so even if there is an experianced wolf, they die quickly).
Bah.
My entire post sums up to:
no seer = no fun.
I could see a seerless game being fun in a face to face game, but not in a web based one.
I think that the extra chaos will really help wolves out.
I still don't think that the game is as unbalanced as every one thinks it is. I think the problem is inexperianced wolves, and experianced players always getting seered (so even if there is an experianced wolf, they die quickly).
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Ah, now see, this is something I wanted to bring up. How, exactly, do you propose to counter the latter? Let me just go by Ana's own words from the postgame thread...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, I just went to and seered the people I respected most in this game, how they play, how they interact, ect. Really, it just amazed me when I seered two wolves in two nights. o.o;<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Two experienced wolves found out... because they WERE experienced. So, with a seer, we're left with...
a) Inexperienced wolves
b) Experienced wolves who are instantly seered <b>because</b> they're experienced, or
c) Experienced humans, which leaves them a very big target for wolfing in and of itself.
And unless the wolves take out the seer early, these are the most likely scenarios, I would think.
A seer-less game seems like a logical step, and it seems like something we should at least <i>try</i> before we judge.
Yes, we need some way to give the wolves a fighting chance, but removing the seer is going a bit too far, in my opinion.
Wait, here's a good analogy... The marines are too powerful, so we're just gonna remove the commander role, and see how they do with one IP and no armory. Oops, here come the fades...
Anyway... Silly analogy, but you get the point... Remove the seer, remove any chance the humans have to win, except by dumb luck (Which, I admit, has been abundant lately).
Maybe the seer should just have, say, a 10% chance (Insert your own number) to get a false report on the first try (Can seer the same person again on a subsequent night to get a 100% reading). So if I seer a human, there's a 90% chance they're human, and a 10% chance they're a wolf, but if I seer the same person a second time, I'll know for sure. That'd reduce the element of <i>absolute</i> trust, and sow a little FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) among the human players.
I was hoping my version would offset the seer's advantage of the wolves by several factors:
- Seer's curse : seer will doubt if his information is 100% true... possible for a wolf to become human here.
- Wolves' abilities: 2 abilities could block the seer for a night, or more. One ability allows wolves to know they've been seered.
At this point, I see that nobody really wants to play my game, due to lack of numbers to build it up. So officially I withdraw my game from the host elections. I won't vote since I don't really like either two and I can't decide which one I would rather play in.
By the way, no replying in a no seerer game would be highly suspicious no? I disagree that the wolves would be passive, everybody should be forming lynching mob alliances.
Assumptions: Wolves only pick humans to kill at night; the guardian is never successful; all votes are placed randomly, so the choice of who gets killed is random
(Wolves die day 1, 2, and (3, 4, or 5)) --- 3/11*2/9*(1/7 + 6/7*1/5 + 6/7*4/5*1/3) = 0.0329004329
(Wolves die day 1, 3, and (4 or 5)) --- 3/11*7/9*2/7(1/5 + 4/5*1/3) = 0.0282828283
(Wolves die 1, 4, and 5) --- 3/11*7/9*5/7*2/5*1/3 = 0.0202020202
(Wolves die 2, 3, and (4 or 5)) --- 8/11*3/9*2/7(1/5 + 4/5*1/3) = 0.0323232323
(Wolves die 3, 4, and 5) --- 8/11*6/9*3/7*2/5*1/3 = 0.0277056277
0.0329004329 + 0.0282828283 + 0.0202020202 + 0.0323232323 + 0.0277056277 = 0.141414141
This shows that if everything in the game goes randomly, the chances of killing all of the wolves is only about 14%. With no definite information to go on, humans aren't likely to go in the right direction. Werewolves don't really have any motivation to kill off people during the night that seem important, and it's actually probably best for them to use random.org to pick their votes, and to not plan anything during the game. Randomly, as I was typing this up, I wondered what the odds were of humans winning after a wolf died during the first day.
Given that a wolf dies day 1 (only a 27.3% chance of that happening, assuming complete randomness):
(Wolves die days 2 and 3) --- 2/9*1/7 = 0.0317460317
(Wolves die days 2 and 4) --- 2/9*6/7*1/5 = 0.0380952381
(Wolves die days 2 and 5) --- 2/9*6/7*4/5*1/3 = 0.0507936508
(Wolves die days 3 and 4) --- 7/9*2/7*1/5 = 0.0444444444
(Wolves die days 3 and 5) --- 7/9*2/7*4/5*1/3 = 0.0592592593
(Wolves die days 4 and 5) --- 7/9*5/7*2/5*1/3 = 0.0740740741
0.0317460317 + 0.0380952381 + 0.0507936508 + 0.0444444444 + 0.0592592593 + 0.0740740741 = 0.298412698
So, that gives about a 30% chance of humans winning. Not much motivation for the wolves to do anything special that might make them stand out. Heck, let's assume that wolves die on the first two days, and see what the chances are of the third one dying.
6/7*4/5*1/3 + 6/7*1/5 + 1/7 = 0.542857143
So, the odds are just above 50% that the third wolf would die at that point.
I know that the suggestion of not having a seer was my idea, and that I've been arguing in this thread that it would work fine, but based on these calculations, I don't think a game with just a psychic and guardian can work; something else is needed to balance it. So, I'm voting for <b>Eternaly Lost</b>. (On the other hand, if we played this game and humans <i>still</i> won, we would know that TWG here is cursed.)
Vote count
EMP Demon (4) - Petco, the_x5, Chocolate, Araithe
Eternaly Lost (5) - Ana, Thansal, Xentor, Eternaly Lost, im lost
Now, since Eternaly Lost voted for himself, it's reasonable to assume that EMP Demon would also vote for himself (either that, or drop out of the running for some reason, either way he should make a post), which basically puts us at a tie still. Maybe these numbers will sway some other people, or maybe Theslan or Isamil can break the tie (the two people besides EMP Demon that have posted in this thread and not voted).
I am not so concerned about wolves being able to sweep up a game, I am more concerned about the largest number of people being able to have fun. That is the OTHER reason why I am voting for e_Lost, and it also brings up a Question for him:
About how many roles in total are there going to be? or are you leaing it compelatly random and no one will know?
I just want to include one last thing:
I am not so concerned about wolves being able to sweep up a game, I am more concerned about the largest number of people being able to have fun. That is the OTHER reason why I am voting for e_Lost, and it also brings up a Question for him:
About how many roles in total are there going to be? or are you leaing it compelatly random and no one will know?
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Completely random.
I expect that most people will have a role of some kind, but don't count on it.
That part of my game plan, only I know what roles, how many, and the total number of roles.
And for the record, the max total number of roles in my game will be no more then 30x times the number of players, and no less then 0.
So if we have 12 people there will be 0 to 360 roles in the game.
Basicly, all roles in the game are given in a random format, with the only restriction being team side.
If a person get a human based role, he can no longer get a wolf, or marifa role.
My method for the role selection, random.org is this in the game. If it is, how many. Then who.
See, what I like about this is that there will be just as much confussion on the human side as there would be under EMP's (not knowing how many wolves, if there are any seer's/psychics etc), however most peopel should beable to take an active role in the game through their roles.
mkay, sounds awsome.
See, what I like about this is that there will be just as much confusion on the human side as there would be under EMP's (not knowing how many wolves, if there are any seer's/psychics etc), however most people should be able to take an active role in the game through their roles.
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Exactly what I wanted.
I want a game were just about everyone can be active, but a little bias to the wolfs. I hope the unknown roles would do just that.
For me not voting, I don't like the whole 'no seer' game, because it becomes luck whether humans manage to lynch a wolf (and letting the psychic know), but with wolves able to trap the psychic and kill him off, the wolves could just sit back, let the accusations fly.
I don't like eternally_lost's game. The random roles is nice, same as the number of wolves, but I've seen this backfire in a massive way. Freak's game with the artifact basically ensure the wolves' lost, in letting humans rebound with the seer and making it a human win.... all because we had no idea what the artifact is or its power. The same principle is in this game: with random roles and random number of wolves, and certain powers, it seems to me another repeat of im_lost's game where everyone with a role only to have the mafia/wolves kill each other and humans winning in confusion.
I just have one comment however.
Last game took two weeks to fill eleven slots. Despite the fact that a few of the regular players were away for that period of time (i.e. im_lost), it appears to me like we are now or soon going to need new players. This reason was my main one in choosing a simpler game which, at least, makes an attempt to try to balance it out.
On top of this...
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E_Lost's game as a whole appears to have the potential to be a ridiculous landslide in either direction.
It may very well be possible that there might be 8-9 vigilantes; if so, if any human was also an Escape Artist, the wolves would be immediately screwed.
On top of this, the free wolf conversion makes it a maximum 5 wolves in a 12 player game from the <b>start</b>. If wolves are allowed to kill night one, that means that in order for the game not to end on day one, humans must immediately kill a wolf, revive the dead player, or somehow stop the wolf death (Hey, with NINE GUARDIANS, anything's possible!)
While this does have the potential to be interesting, I see it more as im_lost's game only condensed into two days. Three max.
And even on top of this, there's still the likelyhood that it'll look exactly like my game, only with <b>LESS</b> human roles and <b>MORE</b> wolves <i>with special abilities</i>.
To me, all the extra features is just too much for one game. Random numbers of roles, stacking roles, wolf special abilities, <i>and</i> a minigame where the balance of power can get thrown out of whack even further... Might as well roll a die, 1-3 and humans win, 4-6 and wolves win. It'll probably make more sense and be a whole lot shorter to boot.
I might be coming off as cynical, but I don't like the looks of this. If the wolves haven't won in 12 games, I don't think making it a random firefight is going to bring any balance into the game.
Oh, and as a side note, I believe that voting for one's own game is rather silly, but that's a topic for another discussion.
The problem is that we don't have the players to fill something like that, that is why I said that we start with small number but allow as many people to sign up before we start as they want to.
<b>Eternaly_Lost</b>(5) Ana Thansal Xentor e_lost im_lost
<b>Emp_Demon</b>(5?) Petco the_x5 Chocolate Araithe (emp_demon?)
I won't end the votes yet because A.Not enough people have voted to play either of these games and B.There's some good discussion going on now. However, it seems likely that Eternaly_Lost will win.
I would rather get a game started right now though, so I'm going to withdraw from the election, with my objections held.
I will play however, but I am going to have a nice "I told you so" ready if random.org decides to make every human a seer that sees everyone else as a wolf.
BTW, I agree that E_Lost's game is far from perfect.
I personaly think a better idea is something between E_Lost's and EMP's
A simple game, with predefined roles, however do not let the players know the status of the roles (so it is possible that there are 2 seers, or none). My main problem with EMP's was that it took simple to the point of not being interesting anymore.
I think the simplest game that would be at all interesting would be 1 seer and no other human roles.