<!--quoteo(post=1623932:date=Apr 30 2007, 12:36 AM:name=Gaidan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gaidan @ Apr 30 2007, 12:36 AM) [snapback]1623932[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> This entire argument is like listening to an average athlete complain about the fact that paid-pro athletes practice more and can achieve more on things they spend time to prefect. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think this is the case at all. it doesn't make any sense that you can move faster by jumping while sidestepping. theres no logic to it at all.
gun recoil and locations hits are something that most FPS have because they separate the moderate players from the good players but NS doesn't have either of those because ns is complicated enough that the there are other mechanisms to distinguish 'good' players from 'moderate' players.
if the objection to bhopping is that there will be less difference between good and bad player, then why not add in weapon recoil or location hits to even that out? it would be a lot more intuitive then perfecting the timing of side step+jumps. if that doesn't address the issue, i suggest including in "Mega Moves" where with the correct key combinations you preform a special feat. lets say "forward, backward, left, right" gives you ammo, or "jump, duck, left+right" gives your next attack double damage. my personal favorite is "duck, duck+forward, forward, jump+attack" to teleport to you foe with a massive uppercut that stuns for 2 seconds. if you want to separate the players who spend lots of time on NS perfecting their moves from those who don't, these combinations would add a lot more depth to the game then just the "forward, left/right+jump" for an extra burst of speed that exists now
Why argue? People who want it or don't want it aren't going to change their minds.
What it does however, is divide people into those who can or can't do it. Whether this is good or bad, you decide. It does remind me of the scripting/non days...
<!--quoteo(post=1624147:date=May 1 2007, 06:26 AM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ May 1 2007, 06:26 AM) [snapback]1624147[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I wouldn't mind getting it removed.
Why argue? People who want it or don't want it aren't going to change their minds.
What it does however, is divide people into those who can or can't do it. Whether this is good or bad, you decide. It does remind me of the scripting/non days... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its pretty safe to say its bad. A skill should be something you work on to get better at, and in a game it should always be a gradual thing, not a black and white can/cant situation. All that achieves is a devide between players and a tendancy for newer players to be put off the game.
Imho just add either quake-style jumping or auto-jumping. Either way is fine and all you have to do is learn the movement. Timing should not be script/marco dependant.
Quake-Style: You press once and hold, the game will now execute a jump at the next possible moment. After that you need to release the jump key, press again and hold for the next jump.
Auto-Jump: You press once and hold; as long as the jump key is held you will perform jumps whenever possible. (pretty much like the old _special
Bhopping isn't that hard to learn. I picked it up in about 5 minutes. Most people just think it's another impossible to learn skill. In my personal opinion, I'm indifferent. But I don't see how Bhopping, at all, separates the noobs and the pros. It's something that the pros can live without, and they'll find other things to spend their time learning. Noobs will be happy it's gone. The world moves on.
<!--quoteo(post=1624150:date=May 1 2007, 02:53 AM:name=CarbonI4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CarbonI4 @ May 1 2007, 02:53 AM) [snapback]1624150[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think its pretty safe to say its bad. A skill should be something you work on to get better at, and in a game it should always be a gradual thing, not a black and white can/cant situation. All that achieves is a devide between players and a tendancy for newer players to be put off the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep.
I don't understand what people say ity really adds to the game. I was actually playing somebody yesterday who moved away from the squad by bhoppong and you know what? We weren't far behind him at all. Some big advantage alright... Woohoo you got there 1 second ahead, gj. More over, he was being so noisy and paying attention to bhopping he didn't noticed the semi-cloaked lerk that came zooming in from his left flank and bit his dumbarse. That and then it was most certainly an immersion killer to see a marine hopping around like he's on crack. It just looks out of place. "Grr I'm a tough space marine <i>who runs around like an insane idiot yelling lolz and pew pew!</i>" (WTH is with the pew pew thing anyways?) Yeah... now what's so great about it again that a sprint key wouldn't be better with?
I do agree that Marine Bunnyhopping absolutely needs to be removed because it does cause people to loose focus for little benefit because of their base movement. I don't agree that Alien Bunnyhopping should be removed, if anything there should be another level added on to the movement ability (o I don't know, pressing the use key at the top of the jump) beacuse its really really fun to do. Also, the arguement that there is only two groups of people, those that can and can't is down right stupid. There are variying degress of hoppers (had to say it), if you pay attention really good Bunnyhoppers (sometimes not pros) can move a lot faster than players who just started bunnyhopping - sometimes even 25-50 movement points faster than other bunny hoppers. there's a dude named Digi that I play with every now and than, and god damn can he hall ###### - the reason being he knows the perfect mouse movement (which i still haven't gotten down) where you move up, down and side to side.
There aren't have and have nots - there's can't do, can do poorly, can do ok, can do alright, can do very well, and ###### godlike.
thumbs up...i hate that glitch nerd user... bunny hopping is a engine glitch.
@CarbonI4 skill? oh is it skill im using cheat tools? Normal player (no nerd) don't want to learn how use a glitch. so its not skill to learn how i can use a glitch from an engine. its fuc*ing fu*kballs.(avgn)
I can learn it to, but i will have fun and not to use a glitch, that allow me to fly in the air. Fact is, damn its a glitch!
Maybe aliens can have it, but marines are not for bunnyhopping. <b>yes maybe in ns2 you can play a marine in a bunny costum or a bunny on alien side </b> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
Yeah because its <b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->totally<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> not like the development team came out and told the community that specifically, in no uncertain terms, bunnyhopping was kept in NS as a design feature, and that it is integral to the game balance.
f*cking pubbers and their "morals" where does it end ...
<!--quoteo(post=1624390:date=May 2 2007, 02:34 AM:name=Gaidan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gaidan @ May 2 2007, 02:34 AM) [snapback]1624390[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree that Marine Bunnyhopping absolutely needs to be removed because it does cause people to loose focus for little benefit because of their base movement. I don't agree that Alien Bunnyhopping should be removed...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1624510:date=May 2 2007, 03:54 PM:name=Goldenprize)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Goldenprize @ May 2 2007, 03:54 PM) [snapback]1624510[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe aliens can have it, but marines are not for bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, that much I think people could compromise on.
<!--quoteo(post=1624514:date=May 2 2007, 04:07 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 2 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]1624514[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah because its <b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->totally<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> not like the development team came out and told the community that specifically, in no uncertain terms, bunnyhopping was kept in NS as a design feature, and that it is integral to the game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we can use seach just fine thank you, or at least most of us can, most of the time... >< I think those that have been here a long time remember when it was said as well without need for reminders. It also might help to understand the conversation's context Charlie was replying to.
One of the problems is that more than a half of the players against bhop can't bhop themselves. This makes the depth discussion a bit weird. More likely it should be the learning curve/necessary skill discussion. At least for me it has added a lot more depth to the gameplay.
I'd do fine without any marine related movement skills although I have a lot of fun trying to perfect it. I'd probably miss the mobility making aggressive gameplay so enjoyable. Aliens most likely need some skill related movement methods unless the devs are able to make some radical changes to alien way of play.
<!--quoteo(post=1624616:date=May 3 2007, 02:42 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ May 3 2007, 02:42 AM) [snapback]1624616[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the problems is that more than a half of the players against bhop can't bhop themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gogo scripting debate number 2. "<i>I don't know what it is/can't do it, therefore I think it should be removed</i>".
seriously, all you have to do to bhop in hl2 is hold forwards and spam jump, it's basically the same as quake's pogo jump. newbie friendly.
the movement in hl1/ns1 is a big part of the game's charm. yea it sucked that if you can't bhop you're bad at the game, and there's no official FAQ about learning how to bhop; but asking to change the movement code would be like... asking to remove recoil from shooter games such as c-s.
for the record it is a glitch, but it's been recognised and incorporated into ns1. proof- marine bhop disabled (ramp bhop aside), alien bhop left in.
carbon14- you don't know ns bhopping if you think it's a black and white issue of either being able to bhop or not. i doubt someone who can bhop in, say, I&S would be good at navigating a map using the fade's blink+bhop combo. it's a skill you need to practise.
I truely, deeply hope that Half-life 1 style bunnyhopping is kept for NS2. O and Sherpa is correct, if you've ever played HL2 deathmatch all you have to do is jump to increase your speed - yay everyone can... bunnyhop... now... it's become a novelty that no one cares about?
<!--quoteo(post=1624737:date=May 3 2007, 06:07 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ May 3 2007, 06:07 PM) [snapback]1624737[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> carbon14- you don't know ns bhopping if you think it's a black and white issue of either being able to bhop or not. i doubt someone who can bhop in, say, I&S would be good at navigating a map using the fade's blink+bhop combo. it's a skill you need to practise. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, I have never really wanted to learn, its an aspect of games I despise (people acting like retards to try and get an advantage over someone) whether that be camping the whole round in some obscure place in CS and making everyone wait, skywalking, or bunnyhopping. Lets not forget its a glitch that looks highly unrealistic, ruins immersion, and is only done to make yourself a harder target or get somewhere faster. glitching yourself halfway into the ground or skywalking is the same, your doing it to make yourself a harder target, not playing the map as it was intended and ruining any realism the game has/had.
Now, having said that, bunnyhopping as aliens is fairly neat, they are meant to be fast, they are meant to be hard to hit, and they are meant to be agile. It doesn't ruin the immersion, and looks semi reasonable. I do hope there is a way to add a little more depth to the alien movement, and if something along the lines of bunnyhopping is it, then its probably a good thing. Everything should be done to remove any form of marine bunnyhopping however.
<!--quoteo(post=1624915:date=May 4 2007, 04:51 AM:name=CarbonI4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CarbonI4 @ May 4 2007, 04:51 AM) [snapback]1624915[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> True, I have never really wanted to learn, its an aspect of games I despise (people acting like retards to try and get an advantage over someone) whether that be camping the whole round in some obscure place in CS and making everyone wait, skywalking, or bunnyhopping. Lets not forget its a glitch that looks highly unrealistic, ruins immersion, and is only done to make yourself a harder target or get somewhere faster. glitching yourself halfway into the ground or skywalking is the same, your doing it to make yourself a harder target, not playing the map as it was intended and ruining any realism the game has/had.
Now, having said that, bunnyhopping as aliens is fairly neat, they are meant to be fast, they are meant to be hard to hit, and they are meant to be agile. It doesn't ruin the immersion, and looks semi reasonable. I do hope there is a way to add a little more depth to the alien movement, and if something along the lines of bunnyhopping is it, then its probably a good thing. Everything should be done to remove any form of marine bunnyhopping however. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, multiplayer videogames are <b>not</b> interactive movies :/ not everything is meant to be realistic.
<!--quoteo(post=1624514:date=May 2 2007, 08:07 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 2 2007, 08:07 PM) [snapback]1624514[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->f*cking pubbers and their "morals" where does it end ... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
f*cking pros and their attitudes...where does it end.... (Thought I'd say that, since there are many 'pubbers' that might actually share your point of view.)
Anyways, Bunnyhopping for aliens I really don't care what happens to it. It's a nice tool derived from an engine glitch. Nothing more, nothing less. A marine Bhop needs to be stopped. After all, it's sick that a pro marine bunnyhopper can move faster than a skulk that doesn't know how to. Marines aren't meant to be the speed demons. Period.
Wohoho. All that marine bhopping needs to be stopped is more or less bogus!
Marines can bhop, but only under very special circumstances: Marines can bhop, if they gain levitation with every hop (example: railjumping and hopping up slopes) Marines can bhop when they have been catpacked. (due to the increased base speed) Marines can bhop when their base-speed is high enough (example: cybernetics on plugin servers)
I would say that overall most people confuse marine bhopping (which is rather rare) with evasive manouvers that quite a few marines undertake (by using aircontrol and alien knockback you can catapult yourself out of alien bite range with ease). Those manouvers are the first hop, of a marine backward bhop. WHat you also quite often see are mariens that use strafejumping combined with wallwalking and railjumping in order to go faster than their comrades. While this can be usefull during the round start it is usually a distraction and will be abandoned for simple wallstrafing after the minute.
But yeah, most peopel dont care for the games movement overall. Simply because it is nothing that a hack can substitute. DL your hack and aim away with 100% accuracy. Thats nice and all but it still bother you, that I can move 1.3 times faster as rine than you and it also bother you that I can climb ladders twice as fast as you can ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1624261:date=May 1 2007, 03:38 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 1 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]1624261[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't understand what people say ity really adds to the game. I was actually playing somebody yesterday who moved away from the squad by bhoppong and you know what? We weren't far behind him at all. Some big advantage alright... Woohoo you got there 1 second ahead, gj. More over, he was being so noisy and paying attention to bhopping he didn't noticed the semi-cloaked lerk that came zooming in from his left flank and bit his dumbarse. That and then it was most certainly an immersion killer to see a marine hopping around like he's on crack. It just looks out of place. "Grr I'm a tough space marine <i>who runs around like an insane idiot yelling lolz and pew pew!</i>" (WTH is with the pew pew thing anyways?) Yeah... now what's so great about it again that a sprint key wouldn't be better with? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> double jumping isnt bunnyhopping, and he wasnt doing it right if you were only a second behind him
for example: <random pub>, map ns_veil. game starts. i go west access. i am in cargo before whoever was next to me in ms is at system waypointing, neither of us have stopped once (since hive is pipe and aliens are idiots)
First Off let me say. " You silly NUB ". Alien Skulks need bunnyhop. Other lifeforms meh couldnt care if they lost it / Marines meh couldnt care if they lost it either.
Secondly With the introduction of LUA Scripting you can write a script that disables it put it on a server and play there. If its any good it will become popular and other servers will start hosting it.
Id much rather see a script that turns bunny hoppers into BIG white fluffy bunnys that leap around the map. *starts loading his shotgun*
My personal problem with bunnyhopping is that it is basically an engine exploit that has become ingrained within NS's gameplay through a lack of any better system to combat the problems that bunnyhopping alleviates.
The bottom line is that if there is no bunnyhopping in NS2, then you can be sure there will be something far, far cooler to replace it.
Okay, lets name off the top of our heads as many games as we can which have actively incorporated quakeworld style aircontrol and physics (read : bunnyhopping and strafejumping)
Quake3 Quake4 Painkiller Natural Selection Counter-Strike (yeah you can still bhop in cs) Counter-Strike Source Team Fortress Classic
In how many of those communities, do people bicker and whine about air control, strafe jumping and bunnyhopping? Huh? Oh wait, almost none of them. It adds depth to the game, if you make the game shallow enough that you can know everything there is to know inside a week, people will sto pplaying after their second week. Sure it looks silly, but so does shooting 10 pistol bullets in under a second, knifing down a building (yet ALL of you do that, right?) and other such things that happen in NS.
Basically, bhop and strafejumping add depth to the skill curve of the game, it's a skill that you can't just pick up and be able to 'do' straight away, it's comparable to learning the recoil patterns in CS. And if you can do it, and have been doing it for a long time - you SHOULD be able to do it better than other people.
But most of all, bunnyhopping is fun. Bunnyhopping is probably one of the most enjoyable aspects of NS for me (and I'm sure other people also).
all the but one of the games you named either have no atmosphere (quake, tfc, painkiller which are all arcadish button mashing reflex games), or have done everything possible to try and remove bunnyhopping (counterstrike). People dont complain about it in games like quake because it suits the playstyle, and last time I checked people often complain about it in CS.
As for it looking stupid, at some point you have to draw the line, and while shooting off 10 rounds in a second or knifing down structures is <i>unrealistic</i> it doesn't look downright stupid. If your going to argue its a game, then why stop at atmosphere breaking bunnyhopping, why not have all the skulks as fluffy bunnies, and the marines as power-rangers. The answer? because you want the game to look good, and involve the player in the world, not make them cringe and think "WTH were the designers thinking". Certainly for me seeing a 100 kilo person bouncing around like kid on a pogo stick through the game has a bad affect on the atmosphere.
The only reason that people want to keep it after they have spent the effort perfecting it, is because it gives them an edge over other players, all so they can puff their ego's up a little bit and get easier kills. I am all for skills that take time to learn, but an engine glitch that looks so silly and puts newer players off the game shouldn't be one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1625369:date=May 6 2007, 09:53 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 6 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]1625369[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In how many of those communities, do people bicker and whine about air control, strafe jumping and bunnyhopping? Huh? Oh wait, almost none of them...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Subjective, subjective, subjective. There you go again...
Are you being sarcastic or serious about bhopping being one of the most enjoyable things about NS to you? What about, I dunno... Teamwork, Building Bases, Socializing in the RR, RTS elements, melee vs. ranged combat, Custom gameplay modes and plugins, Custom maps, Differently lifeforms, Interesting and kind of creepy map designs, Unique lifeforms with fun upgrades and abilities, etc... You rate bhopping as one of the best things about NS? More specifically, it seems most have agreed in this thread that it is okay for skulks, but out of character for marines, right? So you really are whinning that <i>marines</i> might loose bhopping?! Come on...
Most of the community plays for fun, that I know of, <i>not</i> for bhopping.
And furthermore who said NS2 was intended to be so shallow that it would need bhopping to make it unique. Or wait... it wouldn't be unique then would it? If we were going to be really unique we actually might *gasp* let it go away? Holy Bananas Batman!!! HOW WOULD THE WORLD SURVIVE!?!?! INCONCEIVABLE!!! A FPS W/O TEH BHOP, WHUZ WE DO TO GET OUR PEW PEW!?!?!\
I was netrual to the issue before, but your arguements and those of a few others are not only failing to persuade me, it's making me and others shift towards wanting it removed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Moving_Target0+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Marines aren't meant to be the speed demons. Period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, especially when their bullets travel practically instantly. Read more on tactics involving: Ranged vs. Melee.
<!--quoteo(post=1625405:date=May 7 2007, 01:35 AM:name=CarbonI4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CarbonI4 @ May 7 2007, 01:35 AM) [snapback]1625405[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only reason that people want to keep it after they have spent the effort perfecting it, is because it gives them an edge over other players, all so they can puff their ego's up a little bit and get easier kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just gave me a reason to disregard your entire post, nice one. Idiot. All clanners aren't total ######s you know. It's people like you that give pubbers a bad name (OLOL THE IRONY I GENERALISED ASWELL).
<!--quoteo(post=1625411:date=May 7 2007, 08:28 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 7 2007, 08:28 AM) [snapback]1625411[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Are you being sarcastic or serious about bhopping being one of the most enjoyable things about NS to you? What about, I dunno... Teamwork, Building Bases, Socializing in the RR, RTS elements, melee vs. ranged combat, Custom gameplay modes and plugins, Custom maps, Differently lifeforms, Interesting and kind of creepy map designs, Unique lifeforms with fun upgrades and abilities, etc... You rate bhopping as one of the best things about NS? More specifically, it seems most have agreed in this thread that it is okay for skulks, but out of character for marines, right? So you really are whinning that <i>marines</i> might loose bhopping?! Come on...
Most of the community plays for fun, that I know of, <i>not</i> for bhopping. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... And almost everything you named there is much more fun while bhopping.
Teamwork - Take advantage of the speed gain, use cover more effectively to spread the dmg among skulks, decide whether its worth to lose the speed and wait for more skulkers or have the speedy rush. Avoid blocking, take note of the teammates position to estimate their chances to attack.
Custom gameplay - Well, interesting architecture means interesting movement skill usage.
Different lifeforms - All lifeforms make use of the alien movement. Lerk minimizes the speed loss to keep up the adren. Fade uses air control and bhop to move efficently and fast around the map. Onos uses some wigglewalk to move around. Skulk becomes extremely creative and agile with bhop.
Marines - Bait skulks, flee into better positions quickly, move in and block the aliens, share the dmg by switching the marines battling in the first line, generally more options for the marines. I like how ns encourages situational awarness instead of mechanical battling routines. The problem is that the movement is too much for the lower skill skulkers.
The atmosphere depends more on opinions than any fact, but my immersion is ruined by players playing stupid, not bhopping marines. There are so many unrealistic things to complain that a rabbitrine here and there does nothing. I prefer single player games for pure immersion while multiplayer is more about teamwork and challenge vs something not AI.
<!--quoteo(post=1625414:date=May 7 2007, 08:52 AM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 7 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]1625414[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> You just gave me a reason to disregard your entire post, nice one. Idiot. All clanners aren't total ######s you know. It's people like you that give pubbers a bad name (OLOL THE IRONY I GENERALISED ASWELL). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose its lucky for you that I said that then, instead of coming up with reasons that I am wrong you can just resort to name calling and proclaiming me an "idiot" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I am well aware clanners aren't (whatever you said), but you do realise if bunnyhopping wasn't there they could actually compete based on teamwork, hand eye coordination, aiming etc? The sort of thing that an fps/rts hybrid should be about? actual skills? instead of being able to press a sequence of buttons in the same manner over and over again? or having scripts to do it for you? No doubt I am wasting my time typing this though, I will probably just get more insults <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1625431:date=May 7 2007, 06:58 AM:name=CarbonI4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CarbonI4 @ May 7 2007, 06:58 AM) [snapback]1625431[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I suppose its lucky for you that I said that then, instead of coming up with reasons that I am wrong you can just resort to name calling and proclaiming me an "idiot" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I am well aware clanners aren't (whatever you said), but you do realise if bunnyhopping wasn't there they could actually compete based on teamwork, hand eye coordination, aiming etc? The sort of thing that an fps/rts hybrid should be about? actual skills? instead of being able to press a sequence of buttons in the same manner over and over again? or having scripts to do it for you? No doubt I am wasting my time typing this though, I will probably just get more insults <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would really rather not waste my time, the ignorance in your attitude belittles your arguments far more than any words of mine ever could.
<!--quoteo(post=1625361:date=May 7 2007, 01:56 AM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(WorthyRival @ May 7 2007, 01:56 AM) [snapback]1625361[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Secondly With the introduction of LUA Scripting you can write a script that disables it put it on a server and play there. If its any good it will become popular and other servers will start hosting it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and that is exactly why LUA scripting is A Bad Idea. all of the tech people out there who know how to write code and know that they can fix what they see wrong with ns2 will ensure that the community gets divided even more than the ns1 community is.
i want vanilla ns, i want to play the game as the developers intended. i dont want to see my steam browser tell me the not full/empty servers are called "PLUGINS GALORE /xmenu /buildmenu level 50 combat" or have maps like "ns_savethequeen" (though that map is legendary)
opinions aside, ns2 will have easier movement. it's easy to tell the devs have recognised ns1's learning curve as being a problem. id love to see it stay exactly as it is now, but that ain't gonna happen.
p.s.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Socializing in the RR<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
This entire argument is like listening to an average athlete complain about the fact that paid-pro athletes practice more and can achieve more on things they spend time to prefect.
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i don't think this is the case at all. it doesn't make any sense that you can move faster by jumping while sidestepping. theres no logic to it at all.
gun recoil and locations hits are something that most FPS have because they separate the moderate players from the good players but NS doesn't have either of those because ns is complicated enough that the there are other mechanisms to distinguish 'good' players from 'moderate' players.
if the objection to bhopping is that there will be less difference between good and bad player, then why not add in weapon recoil or location hits to even that out? it would be a lot more intuitive then perfecting the timing of side step+jumps. if that doesn't address the issue, i suggest including in "Mega Moves" where with the correct key combinations you preform a special feat. lets say "forward, backward, left, right" gives you ammo, or "jump, duck, left+right" gives your next attack double damage. my personal favorite is "duck, duck+forward, forward, jump+attack" to teleport to you foe with a massive uppercut that stuns for 2 seconds. if you want to separate the players who spend lots of time on NS perfecting their moves from those who don't, these combinations would add a lot more depth to the game then just the "forward, left/right+jump" for an extra burst of speed that exists now
Why argue? People who want it or don't want it aren't going to change their minds.
What it does however, is divide people into those who can or can't do it. Whether this is good or bad, you decide. It does remind me of the scripting/non days...
I wouldn't mind getting it removed.
Why argue? People who want it or don't want it aren't going to change their minds.
What it does however, is divide people into those who can or can't do it. Whether this is good or bad, you decide. It does remind me of the scripting/non days...
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I think its pretty safe to say its bad. A skill should be something you work on to get better at, and in a game it should always be a gradual thing, not a black and white can/cant situation. All that achieves is a devide between players and a tendancy for newer players to be put off the game.
Quake-Style: You press once and hold, the game will now execute a jump at the next possible moment. After that you need to release the jump key, press again and hold for the next jump.
Auto-Jump: You press once and hold; as long as the jump key is held you will perform jumps whenever possible. (pretty much like the old _special
I think the point here is that you <b>can</b> bhop in cs1.6
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Yep.
I don't understand what people say ity really adds to the game. I was actually playing somebody yesterday who moved away from the squad by bhoppong and you know what? We weren't far behind him at all. Some big advantage alright... Woohoo you got there 1 second ahead, gj. More over, he was being so noisy and paying attention to bhopping he didn't noticed the semi-cloaked lerk that came zooming in from his left flank and bit his dumbarse. That and then it was most certainly an immersion killer to see a marine hopping around like he's on crack. It just looks out of place. "Grr I'm a tough space marine <i>who runs around like an insane idiot yelling lolz and pew pew!</i>" (WTH is with the pew pew thing anyways?) Yeah... now what's so great about it again that a sprint key wouldn't be better with?
There aren't have and have nots - there's can't do, can do poorly, can do ok, can do alright, can do very well, and ###### godlike.
bunny hopping is a engine glitch.
@CarbonI4
skill?
oh is it skill im using cheat tools?
Normal player (no nerd) don't want to learn how use a glitch.
so its not skill to learn how i can use a glitch from an engine.
its fuc*ing fu*kballs.(avgn)
I can learn it to, but i will have fun and not to use a glitch, that allow me to fly in the air.
Fact is, damn its a glitch!
Maybe aliens can have it, but marines are not for bunnyhopping.
<b>yes maybe in ns2 you can play a marine in a bunny costum or a bunny on alien side </b> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
f*cking pubbers and their "morals" where does it end ...
<!--quoteo(post=1624510:date=May 2 2007, 03:54 PM:name=Goldenprize)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Goldenprize @ May 2 2007, 03:54 PM) [snapback]1624510[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe aliens can have it, but marines are not for bunnyhopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, that much I think people could compromise on.
<!--quoteo(post=1624514:date=May 2 2007, 04:07 PM:name=SpaceJesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpaceJesus @ May 2 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]1624514[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah because its <b><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->totally<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> not like the development team came out and told the community that specifically, in no uncertain terms, bunnyhopping was kept in NS as a design feature, and that it is integral to the game balance.
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I think we can use seach just fine thank you, or at least most of us can, most of the time... >< I think those that have been here a long time remember when it was said as well without need for reminders. It also might help to understand the conversation's context Charlie was replying to.
I'd do fine without any marine related movement skills although I have a lot of fun trying to perfect it. I'd probably miss the mobility making aggressive gameplay so enjoyable. Aliens most likely need some skill related movement methods unless the devs are able to make some radical changes to alien way of play.
Gogo scripting debate number 2. "<i>I don't know what it is/can't do it, therefore I think it should be removed</i>".
seriously, all you have to do to bhop in hl2 is hold forwards and spam jump, it's basically the same as quake's pogo jump. newbie friendly.
the movement in hl1/ns1 is a big part of the game's charm. yea it sucked that if you can't bhop you're bad at the game, and there's no official FAQ about learning how to bhop; but asking to change the movement code would be like... asking to remove recoil from shooter games such as c-s.
for the record it is a glitch, but it's been recognised and incorporated into ns1. proof- marine bhop disabled (ramp bhop aside), alien bhop left in.
carbon14- you don't know ns bhopping if you think it's a black and white issue of either being able to bhop or not. i doubt someone who can bhop in, say, I&S would be good at navigating a map using the fade's blink+bhop combo. it's a skill you need to practise.
carbon14- you don't know ns bhopping if you think it's a black and white issue of either being able to bhop or not. i doubt someone who can bhop in, say, I&S would be good at navigating a map using the fade's blink+bhop combo. it's a skill you need to practise.
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True, I have never really wanted to learn, its an aspect of games I despise (people acting like retards to try and get an advantage over someone) whether that be camping the whole round in some obscure place in CS and making everyone wait, skywalking, or bunnyhopping. Lets not forget its a glitch that looks highly unrealistic, ruins immersion, and is only done to make yourself a harder target or get somewhere faster. glitching yourself halfway into the ground or skywalking is the same, your doing it to make yourself a harder target, not playing the map as it was intended and ruining any realism the game has/had.
Now, having said that, bunnyhopping as aliens is fairly neat, they are meant to be fast, they are meant to be hard to hit, and they are meant to be agile. It doesn't ruin the immersion, and looks semi reasonable. I do hope there is a way to add a little more depth to the alien movement, and if something along the lines of bunnyhopping is it, then its probably a good thing. Everything should be done to remove any form of marine bunnyhopping however.
True, I have never really wanted to learn, its an aspect of games I despise (people acting like retards to try and get an advantage over someone) whether that be camping the whole round in some obscure place in CS and making everyone wait, skywalking, or bunnyhopping. Lets not forget its a glitch that looks highly unrealistic, ruins immersion, and is only done to make yourself a harder target or get somewhere faster. glitching yourself halfway into the ground or skywalking is the same, your doing it to make yourself a harder target, not playing the map as it was intended and ruining any realism the game has/had.
Now, having said that, bunnyhopping as aliens is fairly neat, they are meant to be fast, they are meant to be hard to hit, and they are meant to be agile. It doesn't ruin the immersion, and looks semi reasonable. I do hope there is a way to add a little more depth to the alien movement, and if something along the lines of bunnyhopping is it, then its probably a good thing. Everything should be done to remove any form of marine bunnyhopping however.
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Dude, multiplayer videogames are <b>not</b> interactive movies :/ not everything is meant to be realistic.
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f*cking pros and their attitudes...where does it end.... (Thought I'd say that, since there are many 'pubbers' that might actually share your point of view.)
Anyways, Bunnyhopping for aliens I really don't care what happens to it. It's a nice tool derived from an engine glitch. Nothing more, nothing less. A marine Bhop needs to be stopped. After all, it's sick that a pro marine bunnyhopper can move faster than a skulk that doesn't know how to. Marines aren't meant to be the speed demons. Period.
All that marine bhopping needs to be stopped is more or less bogus!
Marines can bhop, but only under very special circumstances:
Marines can bhop, if they gain levitation with every hop (example: railjumping and hopping up slopes)
Marines can bhop when they have been catpacked. (due to the increased base speed)
Marines can bhop when their base-speed is high enough (example: cybernetics on plugin servers)
I would say that overall most people confuse marine bhopping (which is rather rare) with evasive manouvers that quite a few marines undertake (by using aircontrol and alien knockback you can catapult yourself out of alien bite range with ease). Those manouvers are the first hop, of a marine backward bhop. WHat you also quite often see are mariens that use strafejumping combined with wallwalking and railjumping in order to go faster than their comrades. While this can be usefull during the round start it is usually a distraction and will be abandoned for simple wallstrafing after the minute.
But yeah, most peopel dont care for the games movement overall. Simply because it is nothing that a hack can substitute. DL your hack and aim away with 100% accuracy. Thats nice and all but it still bother you, that I can move 1.3 times faster as rine than you and it also bother you that I can climb ladders twice as fast as you can ^^
I don't understand what people say ity really adds to the game. I was actually playing somebody yesterday who moved away from the squad by bhoppong and you know what? We weren't far behind him at all. Some big advantage alright... Woohoo you got there 1 second ahead, gj. More over, he was being so noisy and paying attention to bhopping he didn't noticed the semi-cloaked lerk that came zooming in from his left flank and bit his dumbarse. That and then it was most certainly an immersion killer to see a marine hopping around like he's on crack. It just looks out of place. "Grr I'm a tough space marine <i>who runs around like an insane idiot yelling lolz and pew pew!</i>" (WTH is with the pew pew thing anyways?) Yeah... now what's so great about it again that a sprint key wouldn't be better with?
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double jumping isnt bunnyhopping, and he wasnt doing it right if you were only a second behind him
for example: <random pub>, map ns_veil. game starts. i go west access. i am in cargo before whoever was next to me in ms is at system waypointing, neither of us have stopped once (since hive is pipe and aliens are idiots)
Alien Skulks need bunnyhop. Other lifeforms meh couldnt care if they lost it / Marines meh couldnt care if they lost it either.
Secondly
With the introduction of LUA Scripting you can write a script that disables it put it on a server and play there. If its any good it will become popular and other servers will start hosting it.
Id much rather see a script that turns bunny hoppers into BIG white fluffy bunnys that leap around the map. *starts loading his shotgun*
The bottom line is that if there is no bunnyhopping in NS2, then you can be sure there will be something far, far cooler to replace it.
Quake3
Quake4
Painkiller
Natural Selection
Counter-Strike (yeah you can still bhop in cs)
Counter-Strike Source
Team Fortress Classic
In how many of those communities, do people bicker and whine about air control, strafe jumping and bunnyhopping? Huh? Oh wait, almost none of them. It adds depth to the game, if you make the game shallow enough that you can know everything there is to know inside a week, people will sto pplaying after their second week. Sure it looks silly, but so does shooting 10 pistol bullets in under a second, knifing down a building (yet ALL of you do that, right?) and other such things that happen in NS.
Basically, bhop and strafejumping add depth to the skill curve of the game, it's a skill that you can't just pick up and be able to 'do' straight away, it's comparable to learning the recoil patterns in CS. And if you can do it, and have been doing it for a long time - you SHOULD be able to do it better than other people.
But most of all, bunnyhopping is fun. Bunnyhopping is probably one of the most enjoyable aspects of NS for me (and I'm sure other people also).
As for it looking stupid, at some point you have to draw the line, and while shooting off 10 rounds in a second or knifing down structures is <i>unrealistic</i> it doesn't look downright stupid. If your going to argue its a game, then why stop at atmosphere breaking bunnyhopping, why not have all the skulks as fluffy bunnies, and the marines as power-rangers. The answer? because you want the game to look good, and involve the player in the world, not make them cringe and think "WTH were the designers thinking". Certainly for me seeing a 100 kilo person bouncing around like kid on a pogo stick through the game has a bad affect on the atmosphere.
The only reason that people want to keep it after they have spent the effort perfecting it, is because it gives them an edge over other players, all so they can puff their ego's up a little bit and get easier kills. I am all for skills that take time to learn, but an engine glitch that looks so silly and puts newer players off the game shouldn't be one of them.
Subjective, subjective, subjective. There you go again...
Are you being sarcastic or serious about bhopping being one of the most enjoyable things about NS to you? What about, I dunno... Teamwork, Building Bases, Socializing in the RR, RTS elements, melee vs. ranged combat, Custom gameplay modes and plugins, Custom maps, Differently lifeforms, Interesting and kind of creepy map designs, Unique lifeforms with fun upgrades and abilities, etc... You rate bhopping as one of the best things about NS? More specifically, it seems most have agreed in this thread that it is okay for skulks, but out of character for marines, right? So you really are whinning that <i>marines</i> might loose bhopping?! Come on...
Most of the community plays for fun, that I know of, <i>not</i> for bhopping.
And furthermore who said NS2 was intended to be so shallow that it would need bhopping to make it unique. Or wait... it wouldn't be unique then would it? If we were going to be really unique we actually might *gasp* let it go away? Holy Bananas Batman!!! HOW WOULD THE WORLD SURVIVE!?!?! INCONCEIVABLE!!! A FPS W/O TEH BHOP, WHUZ WE DO TO GET OUR PEW PEW!?!?!\
I was netrual to the issue before, but your arguements and those of a few others are not only failing to persuade me, it's making me and others shift towards wanting it removed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Moving_Target0+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moving_Target0)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...Marines aren't meant to be the speed demons. Period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, especially when their bullets travel practically instantly. Read more on tactics involving: Ranged vs. Melee.
You just gave me a reason to disregard your entire post, nice one. Idiot. All clanners aren't total ######s you know. It's people like you that give pubbers a bad name (OLOL THE IRONY I GENERALISED ASWELL).
Are you being sarcastic or serious about bhopping being one of the most enjoyable things about NS to you? What about, I dunno... Teamwork, Building Bases, Socializing in the RR, RTS elements, melee vs. ranged combat, Custom gameplay modes and plugins, Custom maps, Differently lifeforms, Interesting and kind of creepy map designs, Unique lifeforms with fun upgrades and abilities, etc... You rate bhopping as one of the best things about NS? More specifically, it seems most have agreed in this thread that it is okay for skulks, but out of character for marines, right? So you really are whinning that <i>marines</i> might loose bhopping?! Come on...
Most of the community plays for fun, that I know of, <i>not</i> for bhopping.
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... And almost everything you named there is much more fun while bhopping.
Teamwork - Take advantage of the speed gain, use cover more effectively to spread the dmg among skulks, decide whether its worth to lose the speed and wait for more skulkers or have the speedy rush. Avoid blocking, take note of the teammates position to estimate their chances to attack.
Custom gameplay - Well, interesting architecture means interesting movement skill usage.
Different lifeforms - All lifeforms make use of the alien movement. Lerk minimizes the speed loss to keep up the adren. Fade uses air control and bhop to move efficently and fast around the map. Onos uses some wigglewalk to move around. Skulk becomes extremely creative and agile with bhop.
Marines - Bait skulks, flee into better positions quickly, move in and block the aliens, share the dmg by switching the marines battling in the first line, generally more options for the marines. I like how ns encourages situational awarness instead of mechanical battling routines. The problem is that the movement is too much for the lower skill skulkers.
The atmosphere depends more on opinions than any fact, but my immersion is ruined by players playing stupid, not bhopping marines. There are so many unrealistic things to complain that a rabbitrine here and there does nothing. I prefer single player games for pure immersion while multiplayer is more about teamwork and challenge vs something not AI.
You just gave me a reason to disregard your entire post, nice one. Idiot. All clanners aren't total ######s you know. It's people like you that give pubbers a bad name (OLOL THE IRONY I GENERALISED ASWELL).
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I suppose its lucky for you that I said that then, instead of coming up with reasons that I am wrong you can just resort to name calling and proclaiming me an "idiot" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I am well aware clanners aren't (whatever you said), but you do realise if bunnyhopping wasn't there they could actually compete based on teamwork, hand eye coordination, aiming etc? The sort of thing that an fps/rts hybrid should be about? actual skills? instead of being able to press a sequence of buttons in the same manner over and over again? or having scripts to do it for you? No doubt I am wasting my time typing this though, I will probably just get more insults <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I suppose its lucky for you that I said that then, instead of coming up with reasons that I am wrong you can just resort to name calling and proclaiming me an "idiot" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> I am well aware clanners aren't (whatever you said), but you do realise if bunnyhopping wasn't there they could actually compete based on teamwork, hand eye coordination, aiming etc? The sort of thing that an fps/rts hybrid should be about? actual skills? instead of being able to press a sequence of buttons in the same manner over and over again? or having scripts to do it for you? No doubt I am wasting my time typing this though, I will probably just get more insults <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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I would really rather not waste my time, the ignorance in your attitude belittles your arguments far more than any words of mine ever could.
Secondly
With the introduction of LUA Scripting you can write a script that disables it put it on a server and play there. If its any good it will become popular and other servers will start hosting it.
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and that is exactly why LUA scripting is A Bad Idea. all of the tech people out there who know how to write code and know that they can fix what they see wrong with ns2 will ensure that the community gets divided even more than the ns1 community is.
i want vanilla ns, i want to play the game as the developers intended. i dont want to see my steam browser tell me the not full/empty servers are called "PLUGINS GALORE /xmenu /buildmenu level 50 combat" or have maps like "ns_savethequeen" (though that map is legendary)
opinions aside, ns2 will have easier movement. it's easy to tell the devs have recognised ns1's learning curve as being a problem. id love to see it stay exactly as it is now, but that ain't gonna happen.
p.s.
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i just laughed out loud, thanks!