TWG XIII PostGame Thread
Eternaly_Lost
Join Date: 2004-11-20 Member: 32907Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2004-11-20 Member: 32907Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Our First Wolf Win!</div>Well it post game time, and here the thead.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->First wolf in the history of NS TWG<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#009900--><span style="color:#009900"><!--/coloro-->im_lost Psychopath, Forensic Specialist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->ZeroByte Wolf<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Xentor Psychic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->EMP_Demon Seer<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Aldaris Seer Lover with Thansal<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Thansal Converted Wolf<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->,<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro--> Vigilante, Lover with Aldaris<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Faskalia Escape artist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Ana Wolf<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Chocolate Guardian<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Petco Priest, Detective<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Nightstalker Wizard<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Araithe Wolf, Vampire<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
So, anyway, My notes on the setup.
No Mafia, but I made sure to write the story such that it looked like they could exist.
I hoped that the Psychopath would counter balance the wolf powers.
Wolfs took the powers of Conversion and Extra Kill, both of these, well were not over powered did help them to win the game faster. I think my game plan would have been much better with a much larger number of players.
So here the room contents.
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0 Magic Map Shows you where all other items are hidden
1 Magic senser Will tell you any one player's roles
2
3
4 Magic water Lets the user move one more square in a day, must anonce use
5 Magic cell Finder is trapped for one day and night, can not vote, or be killed at night, is lynchable durring the day, repeatable
6 Magic Chains Lets you slow down any player to 1 square move for next move.
7 Magic Key Opens Magic cell, allowing person to be targeted that day, once used, is randomly replaced on map.
8
9 Magic Pit lets the user move to any square on the map
10
11 Magic Trap Lets you lay a trap from someone on any sqaure, person who triggures it is forced back to the start
12
13 Magic Key
14 Magic Shield Protect holder from 1 death
15
16
17 Magic paper Lets the holder cast an extra vote
18
19 Magic Skulk Attacks you when you find it, forcing you back to the start.
20
21 Magic water
22 Magic Arrow Stops one person role from working for a day/night cycle when used, if used on a last wolf, no wolfing at night, and ect.
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Night 1:
Xentor get told there is 3 wolfs, just before day 1 get posted.
Night 2:
Nightstalker looks at Ana, and find the wolfs.
Aldaris seers Thansal.
EMP_Demon Seers im_lost.
Chocolate guards Thansal.
Im_lost looks at Faskalia
Im_lost targets Petco.
Wolfs target Thansal (random.org)
Night 3:
Im_lost looks at Petco
Aldaris seers Chocolate.
EMP_Demon Seers Xentor.
Im_lost Targets EMP Demon.
Wolfs target Im_Lost and Chocolate.
Those that want to host should email me at S2R222 at google mail dot com.
I think there is more, I will add it later.
I will write the stories later.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->First wolf in the history of NS TWG<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--coloro:#009900--><span style="color:#009900"><!--/coloro-->im_lost Psychopath, Forensic Specialist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->ZeroByte Wolf<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Xentor Psychic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->EMP_Demon Seer<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Aldaris Seer Lover with Thansal<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Thansal Converted Wolf<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->,<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro--> Vigilante, Lover with Aldaris<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Faskalia Escape artist<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Ana Wolf<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Chocolate Guardian<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#3366FF--><span style="color:#3366FF"><!--/coloro-->Petco Priest, Detective<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Nightstalker Wizard<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Araithe Wolf, Vampire<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
So, anyway, My notes on the setup.
No Mafia, but I made sure to write the story such that it looked like they could exist.
I hoped that the Psychopath would counter balance the wolf powers.
Wolfs took the powers of Conversion and Extra Kill, both of these, well were not over powered did help them to win the game faster. I think my game plan would have been much better with a much larger number of players.
So here the room contents.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->
0 Magic Map Shows you where all other items are hidden
1 Magic senser Will tell you any one player's roles
2
3
4 Magic water Lets the user move one more square in a day, must anonce use
5 Magic cell Finder is trapped for one day and night, can not vote, or be killed at night, is lynchable durring the day, repeatable
6 Magic Chains Lets you slow down any player to 1 square move for next move.
7 Magic Key Opens Magic cell, allowing person to be targeted that day, once used, is randomly replaced on map.
8
9 Magic Pit lets the user move to any square on the map
10
11 Magic Trap Lets you lay a trap from someone on any sqaure, person who triggures it is forced back to the start
12
13 Magic Key
14 Magic Shield Protect holder from 1 death
15
16
17 Magic paper Lets the holder cast an extra vote
18
19 Magic Skulk Attacks you when you find it, forcing you back to the start.
20
21 Magic water
22 Magic Arrow Stops one person role from working for a day/night cycle when used, if used on a last wolf, no wolfing at night, and ect.
<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
Night 1:
Xentor get told there is 3 wolfs, just before day 1 get posted.
Night 2:
Nightstalker looks at Ana, and find the wolfs.
Aldaris seers Thansal.
EMP_Demon Seers im_lost.
Chocolate guards Thansal.
Im_lost looks at Faskalia
Im_lost targets Petco.
Wolfs target Thansal (random.org)
Night 3:
Im_lost looks at Petco
Aldaris seers Chocolate.
EMP_Demon Seers Xentor.
Im_lost Targets EMP Demon.
Wolfs target Im_Lost and Chocolate.
Those that want to host should email me at S2R222 at google mail dot com.
I think there is more, I will add it later.
I will write the stories later.
Comments
I think that this proves that randomness DOES help Team Evil.
Then again, I admit I think the wolf buffs were probably over powered for a game this size....
Fun, and I'll see you guys and girls next TWG! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Day one (Beginning), I'm told there are 3 wolves...
Day one (End), after Fask's lynching, I'm told there are still 3 wolves.
I contacted Fask as soon as he came back to life in the morning, but he was non-responsive for most of the day...
Wanting to get my count out there, I contacted EMP_Demon too (He was the first one to mention the conversion power, and I figured the wolves wouldn't want to draw attention to that possibility), but he also never responded...
At that point, my next best guess at a human was Thansal, but I figured at least one of them had seen my message by then, despite having heard nothing from them...
Fortunately, Fask eventually spoke up, but still never contacted me. Nobody ever bloody talks to me. I knew Fask was human (Though possibly converted), but I didn't trust EMP completely, so was considering PMing another person with an "In case I get wolfed" message... Decided against it... Stopped caring when everyone decided to waste the second lynch on someone I knew was human and wouldn't die anyway.
Blah. People need to answer their bloody messages.
PS. If the other humans didn't wake up, I was going to post my role the next day... Didn't get a chance... Oh well.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
I remember saying that the wolf conversion would've made things too easy for them...
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True. There were 5 wolves versus 6 humans and one psychopath.
The psychopath and/or vigilante has to kill a wolf within the 3rd day or else wolves win.
Obviously, vigilante ends up being converted and psychopath ends up killing a human.
Wolves also had one vampire, which makes it so if a human or wolf dies, they come back to life a wolf. So if a wolf is a vampire also, that means one extra life.
Lovers were both human as well, so there was a two for one kill. That didn't matter though, since one of the lovers converted to a wolf. Two lovers as humans are basically just another thing in favor of wolves.
Looking through the roles again, you get the point. Wolves were stacked. Wolves ended up with stacked roles which meant that humans had nearly little chance to win.
Also, another note is that two of the wolf buffs that the wolf team gets to choose are rather overpowering in a 12 player game. Allow wolves to convert a human to a wolf and coming back to life after 2 days. While it may not be so bad in certain situations(speaking of roles), in most situations those buffs greatly help the wolves.
Anyway, while this was the first TWG game on NS forums wolves won, I don't really consider this game a "real wolf win" as wolves were really stacked this round and there was little chance of humans winning at all.
At this point, we should probably stick to simpler games until we figure out some balance.
Anyway, good game all and good luck next game. :D
Well, that was interesting from the sidelines. To me, it looked like things are going, here and there with lots of discussion then 'WHAM' wolves win.
I guess I can use the wolves color now for the sigs.
Anyway: I agree the game was too small for this kind of setup. Wolves could have ended it during night 1 if they had used convert and extrakill straight away.
Btw would the map have shown where items are hidden only, or also the type of item what is hidden?
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It showed where the items were, not what they were. Like, I got the map and asked to use it. When e_lost pmed me back, what he said was room numbers, not much else.
Something else just occurred to me. With the wolf conversion happening on any night of the game, and happening instantly, and with the seer response coming instantly, an interesting tradeoff occurs. The seer should wait as late into the night to help ensure that if the person they check that night gets converted, they will see them as a wolf instead of as a human. Also, wolves should wait as late into the night as possible to do the conversion, so that their convert can be seen by the seer as a human instead of as a wolf. On the other hand, the earlier in the night these actions happen, the more time there is to discuss things between a seer and their networked human, or the wolves and their new recruit. I don't really like the fact that there is this time consideration where things could benefit or hurt either side. (This differs from things like deciding when to accuse someone of being a wolf, because in that case other people get to respond, and the effects of that are the basis of this game.) I think a reasonable fix would be having the wolf conversion happen at the end of the night, and leaving the player as a human in all respects until then (possibly adding in a rule that the werewolves can't tell the human they are converting him, and they have to wait for the host to take care of things at the end of the night). I don't know if others agree that it's a problem, or if this would be the best solution, so feedback on this post would be good.
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Alternate solution: Seer recieves information at end of night, conversion is immediate.
While this would hurt the conversion, the fact that the wolves can kill the seer before he gains information would help them out, as the seer wouldn't be able to get that one last name before dying.
Another possible problem that I'd prefer a solution to: Hosts voting for their own games in pre-game. I frankly don't see the point, and when going for a majority of a certain % (in those cases with 3+ hosts), it throws things off.
there need to be determined times when everything happens at night.
Personally I think that it might be worth it to make ALL events happen at the start of the day (obviously excluding those that happen at the start of the night, like psychic)
Possibly set up an order of precedence. (goes vigi kill go before or after conversion? Does the Seer get info before/after conversion? before/after vigi Kill? etc)
Guardian: Can defend 1-4 targets per night.
1 target = 90% success rate
2 targets = 45% success rate on each
3 targets = 30% success rate on each
4 targets = 20% success rate on each
(Could be a partial counter to multiple wolfings)
Ritualists:
- Group of 3 human players
- Do not know each others' roles
- Are effectively a nighttime voting block
- Each can choose a target to kill. The chance of that target dying is the number of ritualists voting for it divided by the total number of ritualists alive. If all of them vote for person X, person X dies. If 2 vote for person X and 1 votes for person Y, then it's 66% chance for X, otherwise Y. If there's a tie, then it's just a straight random.
- As the number decreases (one or two of them are killed), the same formula applies. If two disagree, it's 50/50 as to which vote wins. If there's only one left, he's effectively a vigilante.
Channelers:
- Group of human players
- Do not know each others' roles
- May send one message per night, through the narrator, to all other channelers.
- May not mention any player names
- The narrator should paraphrase the message before passing it on, to prevent any codes or identification through writing style.
- To modify/balance, possibly limit each channeler to one nighttime message only (For the whole game), or maybe even send the message to the wolves too.
(These are just random thoughts, which hopefully will inspire something... Eh, so I'm just babbling. So sue me)
Channelers:
- Group of human players
- Do not know each others' roles
- May send one message per night, through the narrator, to all other channelers.
- May not mention any player names
- The narrator should paraphrase the message before passing it on, to prevent any codes or identification through writing style.
- To modify/balance, possibly limit each channeler to one nighttime message only (For the whole game), or maybe even send the message to the wolves too.
(These are just random thoughts, which hopefully will inspire something... Eh, so I'm just babbling. So sue me)
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1. By "not mention any player names" do you mean besides the Channelers themselves?
2. If the wolves take out a channeler, then they also intercept the message for the night, maybe? (Sort of how the wolves could guess the forensic specialist to kill him as well, I think)
1. By "not mention any player names" do you mean besides the Channelers themselves?
2. If the wolves take out a channeler, then they also intercept the message for the night, maybe? (Sort of how the wolves could guess the forensic specialist to kill him as well, I think)
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I think he meant not mentioning any names at all. The channelers don't know who each other are, and most of the restrictions in there were meant to keep it that way. Of course, without player names, I'm not really sure what type of useful messages could be sent, maybe I'm just overlooking something though. With player names, they could easily be overpowered.
Giving the wolves that opportunity to intercept the message would be interesting. (The wolves don't get to figure out who the forensic specialist is if they spy on the same body that was checked, they get the same information the forensic specialist gets, which is the exact role of the dead person.)
The ritualists are a modified version of the vigilante, except more powerful than a single one. Why? Because the opportunity for a human nighttime kill isn't lost from just a single human dying. So it's a buff to the humans.... Actually, if there were three alive, and only one of them made a choice at all (because it's common for the vigilante to not do anything early on), that would just be a 33% chance of that person dying. I still think it's a human buff. I'm also reminded of what iggy mentioned, which is a vigilante that gets one kill total.
The guardian change is interesting. I'm not sure how much it would change things, since we've had a total of four successful guards in our games (two of them caused rule changes, two of them were in chaotic games where it didn't matter much anyway). In simple games where the wolves are the only bad guys, it would be a human disadvantage in the fact that if the guardian saved someone, they wouldn't know who they saved.
Maybe the Ritualists would be better if only a majority vote could be a kill... So if they voted for three different targets, nothing would happen... But if it was 2-1, there'd be a 66% chance of the majority target dying, and a 33% chance of no kill at all. That way, they'd start out pretty weak (No kill unless they could somehow network or randomly agree), but once two of them died, we'd have a full-fledged vigilante.
As for the Channelers, I was trying to think of a way for more information flow without more networking. I was thinking of other ways to limit it, like the message could be no more than ten words and couldn't identify the sender. Like if one channeler was networked with the seer, he could pass the message "Seer says im_lost is a wolf"... The other channelers would know the message came from a human, but wouldn't know whether the seer was genuine. If the wolves heard this too, it would be useful for accusations, but not for sharing roles. Hell, I don't know... I'm just putting ideas out there.
Oh, right, and the meaning behind the name "Ritualists"... The idea was that they're communing with some supernatural force (Demon, deity, etc), trying to convince that force to kill the target... I was tossing around story ideas for the next TWG (Was considering trying to host), and this popped up.
Btw, Aldaris asked me when I was converted:
I was converted at May 7 2007, 12:46 PM (EST)
So, after the forum PMs, but before I PMed you on IRC.
Something like garlic lover?
well, if you want more ideas, <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/~mafia/oldmafia/rules.htm" target="_blank">here</a> is a giant boat load of em.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we've all been there. I was going for something new, since anyone who's hosted a game has seen everything on the old mafia site...
Is there a role, that cannot be wolved, but only lynched? I guess it would make an interesting addition, because you can get a noone died situation and wolves need to convince the players to lynch someone. This seems especially worthwile when you allow combinations of roles. So you might end up with a seer, that cannot be lynched. Of course wolves would like to remove the seer, but in order to do so they need the other players to lynch him for the wolves. It basically forces wolves to act a little bit more.
Something like garlic lover?
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Wolf Bane, I think it was.
It can not be killed by werewolfs, but can be killed by any other means.
On the side note of balance, I think my game would have been much better if we had larger teams, then some of the wolf powers would have been more useful, and others less useful.
Werewolfs would do better in small game, in theory, because they have less time they have to worry about making a mistake. Where in large long games, humans are favored because there is time to get the info around to find the wolfs.
In a small game wolves just need to sit back and kill people off one by one.
wich is exactly what they did.
TBH, I Didn't suspect ANY of the wolves this game.
sorta why I like larger games. Sure it is harder to balance, but it is more fun for all involved.
Only problem?
We just don't have the smeggin players.
exactly
In a small game wolves just need to sit back and kill people off one by one.
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Except when the seer finds all the wolves really quickly, like last game...
exactly
In a small game wolves just need to sit back and kill people off one by one.
wich is exactly what they did.
TBH, I Didn't suspect ANY of the wolves this game.
sorta why I like larger games. Sure it is harder to balance, but it is more fun for all involved.
Only problem?
We just don't have the smeggin players.
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Smeggin?? You watch Red Dwarf?
Smeggin?? You watch Red Dwarf?
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Not as much as I would have liked to.
But I tend to pick up ways of swearing that are not english (either ficitonal or other languages)
Another possible problem that I'd prefer a solution to: Hosts voting for their own games in pre-game. I frankly don't see the point, and when going for a majority of a certain % (in those cases with 3+ hosts), it throws things off.
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This appears to have been unread, and I would prefer some closure one way or the other.
On a related note, will we see the host elections for XIV start any time soon?