pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited May 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1625431:date=May 7 2007, 06:58 AM:name=CarbonI4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CarbonI4 @ May 7 2007, 06:58 AM) [snapback]1625431[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The sort of thing that an fps/rts hybrid should be about? actual skills? instead of being able to press a sequence of buttons in the same manner over and over again? or having scripts to do it for you? No doubt I am wasting my time typing this though, I will probably just get more insults <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all bunnyhopping and airstrafing (air control) is a skill. A script or mwheel just helps you to time jump, which is just one part of bunnyhopping. It doesn't even help at all for the air control part.
So while I agree that bunny hopping or movement skills in general should be more obvious to new players so that they can catch it up easier, especially air control is so much fun and amazing to use that it shouldn't be removed at any cost. I mean you gain a lot more movement control and possiblities just with the control setup you already have, strafing and turning. You don't need to bind more keys or screw over your config to be able to use this movement pattern, which adds a lot to the game and not only for skulks.
Imho learning and mastering these movement skills is similar to special moves in beat'em up games, it adds depth and attracts people that like and have fun to learn and master a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1625437:date=May 7 2007, 12:40 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pSyk0mAn @ May 7 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]1625437[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> First of all bunnyhopping and airstrafing (air control) is a skill. A script or mwheel just helps you to time jump, which is just one part of bunnyhopping. It doesn't even help at all for the air control part.
So while I agree that bunny hopping or movement skills in general should be more obvious to new players so that they can catch it up easier, especially air control is so much fun and amazing to use that it shouldn't be removed at any cost. I mean you gain a lot more movement control and possiblities just with the control setup you already have, strafing and turning. You don't need to bind more keys or screw over your config to be able to use this movement pattern, which adds a lot to the game and not only for skulks.
Imho learning and mastering these movement skills is similar to special moves in beat'em up games, it adds depth and attracts people that like and have fun to learn and master a game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
useful post <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Air control I certainly hope will stay, I dislike the lifeless movement you get in some games where your forced to continue in the same direction you launched from. While its realistic, its not very fun and doesn't feel natural somehow. Your also very much right that the fewer keys used to move about in-game the better. If there was a way to implement extra movement so that it didn't have such a drastic impact on the game and didn't look stupid I would be all for it
<!--quoteo(post=1625441:date=May 7 2007, 08:57 AM:name=CarbonI4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CarbonI4 @ May 7 2007, 08:57 AM) [snapback]1625441[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Air control I certainly hope will stay, I dislike the lifeless movement you get in some games where your forced to continue in the same direction you launched from. While its realistic, its not very fun and doesn't feel natural somehow. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Air control feels natural because we've all been doing it in Mario since we were 10 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
the learning curve is what i like at ns the most. i dont care if its realistic, and an argumentation with realism is just stupid for this game <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> it looks so unrealistic that fictional alien lifeforms can jump around in a strange way its not unrealistic that you can plop a restower on a resnode within a millisecond its not unrealistic that skulks can walk up walls and dont cause some traces at the wall its not unrealistic that a lerk can put out an almost infinite amount of acidic gas out of his whatever its not unrealistic that a commander can drop a medpack out of nowhere in a millisecond ... ok, i stop! i think it should be clear now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
so, my point of view i just, that a game that offers you over and over again new ways to improve is better than a game where you have learned everything within 1 or 2 weeks
i think that a movement skill (even if it is a glitch) that takes some time to learn and a lot of time to perfectionate is better than to press a sprintkey at the right moment. i think i dont have to mention that ambushes are 1 billion times more effective to kill a marine than to bunnyhop into a marine (but i did mention it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), especially with a group of aliens. so, if you can bunnyhop you can faster meet with other players and kill the marines and you might have a second chance, if you fail, at another position because you were so quickish at the position due to bunnyhop (exaggerated)
alright, leap, blink etc are pretty fust, but if you combine it with a proper bunnyhop its faster and/or needs less adrenaline, thats what new players cant and maybe motivates them to practice
[random note plopping up in my head] bunnyhop also can save your life as gorge if a marine has no ammo and wants to knife you! [/random ...]
however its a good point that you need a jumpscript or your mousewheel to always hit the right moment, yeah, thats something i dislike about bunnyhop, too
Learning new things at a game simply make the game more fun for long terms (hey, i just found out that an advanced armory looks different to a normal one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> )
becoming really good takes a lot of time in ns because of the variety of different aspects you need to learn to climb up the ladder of e-success: aim, movement, experience i would call each aspect as important as the other ones and YOU CAN LEARN BHOP, just ask a nice player to explain it
i would partly agree to remove the "marinebhop", but in real life you can dodge a car by jumping off the street, or making a short sprint, throwing yourself on the street. if you wanna "dodge" a dog, you climp up a tree (oh yes, were all just stupid monkeys). in ns you dont have all these possibilites, so its quite fair that you can abuse the engine a bit. i think ns would be very different if this air-acceleration exploit has never existed
"bhop is most fun at the game" (too lazy to quote properly, as you know) i think you might have this impression because if youre playing clanwars and youre waiting the opponent to start, you bunnyhop around all the time and thats why clanners are generally better at bunnyhopping than pure pubbers. you mainly just practice bhop because you have nothing else to do in that time
I should have guessed this thread would be an open can of worms :] SpaceJesus, I don't think it is accurate to say that those games <i>actively</i> incorporated quakeworld style physics and aircontrol; most of those games are Quake engine based and so had that in the code already. There was nothing active about it, quite the opposite; it was inactivity that resulted in those games having bunny hopping capabilities!
Whether that was active inactivity is another question entirely...
I am not intrinsicly against bunny hopping, but it seems to me that there should be a cooler and less...engine exploitative movement skill available to players. Perhaps if one existed, it and bunnyhopping could coexist in peace and harmony and everyone would shut up about it! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1625498:date=May 7 2007, 03:32 PM:name=Merkaba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Merkaba @ May 7 2007, 03:32 PM) [snapback]1625498[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not intrinsicly against bunny hopping, but it seems to me that there should be a cooler and less...engine exploitative movement skill available to players. Perhaps if one existed, it and bunnyhopping could coexist in peace and harmony and everyone would shut up about it! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That pretty sums up my feelings about the "issue". After that I don't see what else I can add to this conversation.
this argument is like: fat kids who cant run complaining that soccer doesnt take coordination or situational awareness or anything, you just need to run fast!
Don't make the mistake of thinking that people are against bunny hopping because they can't do it. I can bunny hop, I actually find it somewhat relaxing; but I don't think it should be a huge gameplay element in NS2.
BTW, just to be clear, my opinions are not indicitive of the general opinion that the NS2 team holds. I am just mentioning my own personal view on the subject.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1625625:date=May 8 2007, 08:09 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ May 8 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]1625625[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i still havent heard a single good reason why bunnyhopping shouldnt be included in ns:source <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping requires esoteric engine knowledge and non-intuitive movements. It is fps dependent and requires per-frame timing to maximise its efficiency. A good game should have at its core movement techniques that are easy to learn ( i.e. an average should be able to watch and imitate an expert without having to research concepts like frame rate and scripts ). These movement techniques should also be difficult to master, so that maximum benefit is only bestowed on those who have exceptional aptitude or spend a great deal of time learning the ability. The current implementation of bunnyhopping in NS is not accessible enough yet it is a core feature of gameplay at the highest levels.
In my opinion ( and I'm not an NS2 dev ), I think NS2 needs to design its player movement to be accessible and intuitive but complex enough to provide depth of play and depth of learning curve. I don't really care how it works out as long as it is a fun skill to learn, a fun skill to apply. Each class should have at least one such movement trick, and the skulk should have several. I would argue that wallwalking in NS fits the bill of accessible, intuitive but deep enough to allow experts to leverage an advantage in how they use it ( e.g. anyone can wallwalk into an alcove, but it takes experience to know which alcove to ambush from ).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> this argument is like: fat kids who cant run complaining that soccer doesn't take coordination or situational awareness or anything, you just need to run fast!
what the ######, honestly <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For someone who likes to point out logical fallacies, you just dump a fairly substantial strawman on the argument. The skills in soccer are extremely intuitive - they are our evolved senses of phyiscal position, movement and our abilities to predict behaviour of systems in motion. It is almost the very essence of intuitiveness. The complaint against bunnyhopping is that the application of the input system does not in anyway correlate intuitively with the results. Bunnyhopping, like wiggle walking, should slow you down. There is no way in the real world that lateral movement ( which increases overall distance travelled ) should increase resultant forward speed.
I've no strong objection to bunnyhopping, in fact, as part of NS I think it works really well given the legacy of quakelike games, but for NS2 I think it is time to leave such idiosyncrasies behind and design the desired behaviour. I'm not suggesting that I'd like NS2 to have realistic movement. I still want to see fast paced combat with zero penality on aim for movement and lots of clever use of map geometry to gain advantages in combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1625637:date=May 8 2007, 12:09 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ May 8 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]1625637[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> A good game should have at its core movement techniques that are easy to learn ( i.e. an average should be able to watch and imitate an expert without having to research concepts like frame rate and scripts ). These movement techniques should also be difficult to master, so that maximum benefit is only bestowed on those who have exceptional aptitude or spend a great deal of time learning the ability. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats something I would like to pick up:
The DEVS removed _special, thus deviding the "skilled" and "unskilled" bhoppers" even further. In the beginning all you needed to do is explain the movement and just give people a _special jump script. <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +bunny "alias _special code; code" alias code "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; special" alias -bunny "alias _special -jump;" bind "SPACE" "+bunny" <!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> thats out of my head, dont nail me on this one it could be errornous.
After the removal/block of _special people had to either rely on mwheel or external macros (g keyboards for example) or in same cases even hooks that reenabled special (which of course meant a vacban, but was still possible during vac1, cause vac1 did not work with mods). Bhopping with a normal key is nearly impossible. The amount of timing required is just too much for a human. So, what I am trying to point out is, that with the removal of special the devs devided the community even further into those who can bhop and just have to figure out a new method of timing the jumps, (external macros, hooks, to an extent mwheel) which required those players to either hack the game, or buy in most cases new hardware (only a few mwheels are actually good for jumping) and the players that refused to put more effort in timing the jumps.
So instead of leveling the playing field, by removing special the devs actually made the situation worse!
_special has some nasty abuses in addition to jump timing. Autofire pistol at least, probably many more after people get creative. Q3 jumping in ns:s would be sweet.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1625650:date=May 8 2007, 12:54 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ May 8 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]1625650[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So instead of leveling the playing field, by removing special the devs actually made the situation worse! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
special was not removed because of its effectiveness for bunnyhopping, but as Bacillus points out, because of the many other abusive applications of it ( the detail of which I won't go into ).
But jump timing is only part of the problem with HL bunnyhopping, the other is about matching the arc of turn with the direction of movement. I don't think it is particularly hard to learn, I think that pretty much anyone who wants to bunnyhop can learn it given the right pointers. My objection isn't that it is easy or hard, and none of the changes we have made ( or can make - e.g. the addition of buffered jumping as in quake ) will change the fundamentals of my position: the movement trick is non-intuitive and non-repeatable based on observation. Apart from a few very smart people, pretty much everyone who has learned how to bunnyhop has had to have a few esoteric ideas explained to them. Be it the use of special, scripts, mousewheel, an external macro program or be it the rather complicated explanation about matching strafe direction and arc of turn to the direciton of movement. Oh, and unless I forget the most obvious non-intuitive aspect of bunnyhopping: do not press the forward key to go forward faster.
I agree with most of what puzl writes in his post, with one tiny exception.
While lateral movement logically would not allow you to speed up, it is immediately obvious for anyone who tries wiggle walking that it does speed you up. You watch someone who can do it, ask how they do it, imitate and immediately experience part of the benifit.
I hope we can agree that while techniques should be intuitive and easy to mimic, they don't have to be immediately obvious to any new player without seeing someone else do it. The basic wiggle walk technique fits this bill.
[Edit] As an interesting side point: when I 'teach' bunny hopping I always try to first introduce the concept of strafe jumping once to close distances. While the concept of bunnyhopping (strafejumping continuously while maintaining forward momentum) might be hard to grasp at first, strafing and jumping once in the direction you are strafing and then turning to match your field of view to the direction you are going is much less so. It might even be considered somewhat intuitive (at least it does provide direct feedback by confirming that you do indeed control your movement in the air, and gain speed by doing so). Actually, most players already do this to some degree, without realising it uses the same basic movement patterns and same game mechanics as continuous bunnyhopping does.
<!--quoteo(post=1625704:date=May 8 2007, 03:33 PM:name=nizb0ag)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nizb0ag @ May 8 2007, 03:33 PM) [snapback]1625704[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've got a video of me bhopping, im going faster IRL!! :\. GG NS2 nobhop = less old schoolers. "Bunnyhoping adds in game eliteness" now seriously anyone can bhop i learnt in less then five minutes!!!! back in the day. you may aswell remove the skulk if you remove bhop(this may sound stupid but seriously bhop is almost a skill) now i know the devs say it is an exploit, glitch What ever you call it. Isnt the skulk ment to be offensive movement? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They have explicetely said they will be adding new, more intuitive movement in place of bhop. How can this be a bad thing?
I'm totally with puzl here. I have absolutely nothing against bhop in current NS, but a more intuitive system can only be a positive in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1625506:date=May 7 2007, 07:57 PM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ May 7 2007, 07:57 PM) [snapback]1625506[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> That pretty sums up my feelings about the "issue". After that I don't see what else I can add to this conversation.
vote <b>"yeah what he said"</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, what he said.
<!--quoteo(post=1625526:date=May 7 2007, 09:28 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ May 7 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]1625526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> this argument is like: fat kids who cant run complaining that soccer doesnt take coordination or situational awareness or anything, you just need to run fast!
what the ######, honestly <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you haven't noticed, a lot of people that CAN Bhop are saying that it's not that big of a deal. And we're not talking complete removal, mainly the people against have said remove it for MARINES.
<!--quoteo(post=1619731:date=Apr 9 2007, 09:38 AM:name=Chocolate)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chocolate @ Apr 9 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]1619731[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I've gotten used to people bhopping, its been there so long that its like a part of the game. Bhopping anyway is probably going to be removed because bhopping is a exploit (or something along those lines) of the HL engine. I doubt the Source engine carries on this exploit.
(I don't make the greatest technical made simple sentences) <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hl2dmpro, and you'll see what i mean :> imo. just make bhop easier for newbs, something like in warsow where jump timing doesn't matter that much.
<!--quoteo(post=1625727:date=May 8 2007, 11:22 PM:name=Hellabeans)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hellabeans @ May 8 2007, 11:22 PM) [snapback]1625727[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> "IF I CAN'T BUNNYHOP NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO BUNNYHOP"
If we removed everything I cannot do properly the world would consist of two things... sleeping and eating. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I have been having troubles falling asleep lately.
So you might wanne remove sleeping as well. Or at least nerf it down, till you can sleep with both eyes closed ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1626169:date=May 11 2007, 01:05 PM:name=HatlabuFarkas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HatlabuFarkas @ May 11 2007, 01:05 PM) [snapback]1626169[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i hate the bunny hooping, i wanna remove it too. UNREALISTIC !!! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yep, stupid bunny hopping! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" /> Skill? pah, its only a cheating and a engine glitch. UWE need to allow the players only jumping after they hit the ground. But if you use the "bunny hop" glitch, you can handle this?!
maybe i lease my own server and bann all bhopper XD
<b>Bunnyhopping in the Battlefield Series</b> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exact purpose and benfits have evolved as EA has released patches and fixes for this <b>exploit</b>. Before a patch which disabled players being able to jump in a zig zag motion while also firing their weapon, which was eventually seen to as a form of cheating and also a kickable/bannable offense on servers depending on the owners of the servers preference. Players could jump round a corner, come across an enemy and begin to jump in a random direction while firing, some people viewed this as "unsporting" and "noobery", along with bunny hopping people and firing the weapon people would also prone in "mid air" which became to be known as dolphin diving.
EA has made attempts to reduce the use of this in Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142. With each jump a portion of your sprint stamina is reduced and a player is not able to fire while hopping. However, it still remains a very effective way to evade fire although very unrealistic.
Many servers attempt to place a count on the number of consecutive jumps to label it as bunny hopping. Other server administrators simply use their better judgement. Usually hopping specifically to evade oncoming fire is a kickable/bannable offense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1627501:date=May 18 2007, 10:25 AM:name=Goldenprize)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Goldenprize @ May 18 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]1627501[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> UWE need to allow the players only jumping after they hit the ground. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fun fact: You cannot jump midair. You always hit the ground, even when bunny hopping. In order to eliminate bunny hopping UWE needed to remove air-control OR add a jump delay.
<!--quoteo(post=1627502:date=May 18 2007, 10:27 AM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ May 18 2007, 10:27 AM) [snapback]1627502[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Fun fact: You cannot jump midair. You always hit the ground, even when bunny hopping. In order to eliminate bunny hopping UWE needed to remove air-control OR add a jump delay. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ya thats the problem. maybe fix it with "max player speed" so they cant? or the marines have a stamina bar (not the aliens) like in day of defeat/Farcry and many other games
you know, in css you will "stop" if you jump, but the bhop works fine. Valve need to fix that, because its a damn engine glitch. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1627503:date=May 18 2007, 10:34 AM:name=Goldenprize)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Goldenprize @ May 18 2007, 10:34 AM) [snapback]1627503[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> you know, in css you will "stop" if you jump, but the bhop works fine. Valve need to fix that, because its a damn engine glitch. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well in this case it only works, when you loose elevation. I guess, because they eliminated bhopping on same elevation level, after that they eliminated it when you gain elevation (It was still possible in the beta). Seems like they forgot the remove it when you loose elevation. Anyway: As you can see it is indeed an integral part of the engine and has been never removed in general, but only for certain scenarios, mainly because air control and spinning mid-air is an important tactic to surpriste enemys when coming around a corner. (Not so much in css bit is is really important in dods)
I didn't read all the posts so im not answering argument but simply expressing my opinion BUNNYHOP IS BRILLIANT <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
p.s. Argument sprint would be lame if it was to replace bunnyhop.
Remove bunny hopp, or make it easier for every one. I can bunny hopping but I think it should be removed. If your mouse is not good enough you can't do it effectively. And it is also look very stupid when a gorge jumping around and 3 times faster then a marine...
I'm ganna go with a no since the whole point of bunnyhopping is to close the distance between you and wherever you want to go - so marines should never have a movement increase (unless it's a JP) because that would remove the whole point of melee range no?
Also, there is a form of bunnyhopping which the marines can do - backwards. It's really, really hard but it allows you to out distance an alien who is only walking foward - if they're bunnyhopping as well the alien can out run them.
Comments
The sort of thing that an fps/rts hybrid should be about? actual skills? instead of being able to press a sequence of buttons in the same manner over and over again? or having scripts to do it for you? No doubt I am wasting my time typing this though, I will probably just get more insults <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all bunnyhopping and airstrafing (air control) is a skill.
A script or mwheel just helps you to time jump, which is just one part of bunnyhopping. It doesn't even help at all for the air control part.
So while I agree that bunny hopping or movement skills in general should be more obvious to new players so that they can catch it up easier,
especially air control is so much fun and amazing to use that it shouldn't be removed at any cost.
I mean you gain a lot more movement control and possiblities just with the control setup you already have, strafing and turning. You don't need to bind more keys or screw over your config to be able to use this movement pattern, which adds a lot to the game and not only for skulks.
Imho learning and mastering these movement skills is similar to special moves in beat'em up games, it adds depth and attracts people that like and have fun to learn and master a game.
First of all bunnyhopping and airstrafing (air control) is a skill.
A script or mwheel just helps you to time jump, which is just one part of bunnyhopping. It doesn't even help at all for the air control part.
So while I agree that bunny hopping or movement skills in general should be more obvious to new players so that they can catch it up easier,
especially air control is so much fun and amazing to use that it shouldn't be removed at any cost.
I mean you gain a lot more movement control and possiblities just with the control setup you already have, strafing and turning. You don't need to bind more keys or screw over your config to be able to use this movement pattern, which adds a lot to the game and not only for skulks.
Imho learning and mastering these movement skills is similar to special moves in beat'em up games, it adds depth and attracts people that like and have fun to learn and master a game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
useful post <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Air control I certainly hope will stay, I dislike the lifeless movement you get in some games where your forced to continue in the same direction you launched from. While its realistic, its not very fun and doesn't feel natural somehow. Your also very much right that the fewer keys used to move about in-game the better. If there was a way to implement extra movement so that it didn't have such a drastic impact on the game and didn't look stupid I would be all for it
Air control I certainly hope will stay, I dislike the lifeless movement you get in some games where your forced to continue in the same direction you launched from. While its realistic, its not very fun and doesn't feel natural somehow.
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Air control feels natural because we've all been doing it in Mario since we were 10 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I really enjoyed the sense of galloping through the map as a skulk and would really miss that aspect of gameplay.
it looks so unrealistic that fictional alien lifeforms can jump around in a strange way
its not unrealistic that you can plop a restower on a resnode within a millisecond
its not unrealistic that skulks can walk up walls and dont cause some traces at the wall
its not unrealistic that a lerk can put out an almost infinite amount of acidic gas out of his whatever
its not unrealistic that a commander can drop a medpack out of nowhere in a millisecond
...
ok, i stop! i think it should be clear now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
so, my point of view i just, that a game that offers you over and over again new ways to improve is better than a game where you have learned everything within 1 or 2 weeks
i think that a movement skill (even if it is a glitch) that takes some time to learn and a lot of time to perfectionate is better than to press a sprintkey at the right moment.
i think i dont have to mention that ambushes are 1 billion times more effective to kill a marine than to bunnyhop into a marine (but i did mention it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />), especially with a group of aliens. so, if you can bunnyhop you can faster meet with other players and kill the marines and you might have a second chance, if you fail, at another position because you were so quickish at the position due to bunnyhop (exaggerated)
alright, leap, blink etc are pretty fust, but if you combine it with a proper bunnyhop its faster and/or needs less adrenaline, thats what new players cant and maybe motivates them to practice
[random note plopping up in my head]
bunnyhop also can save your life as gorge if a marine has no ammo and wants to knife you!
[/random ...]
however its a good point that you need a jumpscript or your mousewheel to always hit the right moment, yeah, thats something i dislike about bunnyhop, too
Learning new things at a game simply make the game more fun for long terms (hey, i just found out that an advanced armory looks different to a normal one <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> )
becoming really good takes a lot of time in ns because of the variety of different aspects you need to learn to climb up the ladder of e-success: aim, movement, experience
i would call each aspect as important as the other ones and YOU CAN LEARN BHOP, just ask a nice player to explain it
i would partly agree to remove the "marinebhop", but in real life you can dodge a car by jumping off the street, or making a short sprint, throwing yourself on the street. if you wanna "dodge" a dog, you climp up a tree (oh yes, were all just stupid monkeys). in ns you dont have all these possibilites, so its quite fair that you can abuse the engine a bit. i think ns would be very different if this air-acceleration exploit has never existed
"bhop is most fun at the game" (too lazy to quote properly, as you know)
i think you might have this impression because if youre playing clanwars and youre waiting the opponent to start, you bunnyhop around all the time and thats why clanners are generally better at bunnyhopping than pure pubbers. you mainly just practice bhop because you have nothing else to do in that time
Whether that was active inactivity is another question entirely...
I am not intrinsicly against bunny hopping, but it seems to me that there should be a cooler and less...engine exploitative movement skill available to players. Perhaps if one existed, it and bunnyhopping could coexist in peace and harmony and everyone would shut up about it! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
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That pretty sums up my feelings about the "issue". After that I don't see what else I can add to this conversation.
vote <b>"yeah what he said"</b>
what the ######, honestly
BTW, just to be clear, my opinions are not indicitive of the general opinion that the NS2 team holds. I am just mentioning my own personal view on the subject.
i still havent heard a single good reason why bunnyhopping shouldnt be included in ns:source
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Bunnyhopping requires esoteric engine knowledge and non-intuitive movements. It is fps dependent and requires per-frame timing to maximise its efficiency. A good game should have at its core movement techniques that are easy to learn ( i.e. an average should be able to watch and imitate an expert without having to research concepts like frame rate and scripts ). These movement techniques should also be difficult to master, so that maximum benefit is only bestowed on those who have exceptional aptitude or spend a great deal of time learning the ability. The current implementation of bunnyhopping in NS is not accessible enough yet it is a core feature of gameplay at the highest levels.
In my opinion ( and I'm not an NS2 dev ), I think NS2 needs to design its player movement to be accessible and intuitive but complex enough to provide depth of play and depth of learning curve. I don't really care how it works out as long as it is a fun skill to learn, a fun skill to apply. Each class should have at least one such movement trick, and the skulk should have several. I would argue that wallwalking in NS fits the bill of accessible, intuitive but deep enough to allow experts to leverage an advantage in how they use it ( e.g. anyone can wallwalk into an alcove, but it takes experience to know which alcove to ambush from ).
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this argument is like: fat kids who cant run complaining that soccer doesn't take coordination or situational awareness or anything, you just need to run fast!
what the ######, honestly
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For someone who likes to point out logical fallacies, you just dump a fairly substantial strawman on the argument. The skills in soccer are extremely intuitive - they are our evolved senses of phyiscal position, movement and our abilities to predict behaviour of systems in motion. It is almost the very essence of intuitiveness. The complaint against bunnyhopping is that the application of the input system does not in anyway correlate intuitively with the results. Bunnyhopping, like wiggle walking, should slow you down. There is no way in the real world that lateral movement ( which increases overall distance travelled ) should increase resultant forward speed.
I've no strong objection to bunnyhopping, in fact, as part of NS I think it works really well given the legacy of quakelike games, but for NS2 I think it is time to leave such idiosyncrasies behind and design the desired behaviour. I'm not suggesting that I'd like NS2 to have realistic movement. I still want to see fast paced combat with zero penality on aim for movement and lots of clever use of map geometry to gain advantages in combat.
A good game should have at its core movement techniques that are easy to learn ( i.e. an average should be able to watch and imitate an expert without having to research concepts like frame rate and scripts ). These movement techniques should also be difficult to master, so that maximum benefit is only bestowed on those who have exceptional aptitude or spend a great deal of time learning the ability.
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Thats something I would like to pick up:
The DEVS removed _special, thus deviding the "skilled" and "unskilled" bhoppers" even further. In the beginning all you needed to do is explain the movement and just give people a _special jump script.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->alias +bunny "alias _special code; code"
alias code "+jump; wait; -jump; wait; special"
alias -bunny "alias _special -jump;"
bind "SPACE" "+bunny"
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thats out of my head, dont nail me on this one it could be errornous.
After the removal/block of _special people had to either rely on mwheel or external macros (g keyboards for example) or in same cases even hooks that reenabled special (which of course meant a vacban, but was still possible during vac1, cause vac1 did not work with mods). Bhopping with a normal key is nearly impossible. The amount of timing required is just too much for a human. So, what I am trying to point out is, that with the removal of special the devs devided the community even further into those who can bhop and just have to figure out a new method of timing the jumps, (external macros, hooks, to an extent mwheel) which required those players to either hack the game, or buy in most cases new hardware (only a few mwheels are actually good for jumping) and the players that refused to put more effort in timing the jumps.
So instead of leveling the playing field, by removing special the devs actually made the situation worse!
So instead of leveling the playing field, by removing special the devs actually made the situation worse!
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special was not removed because of its effectiveness for bunnyhopping, but as Bacillus points out, because of the many other abusive applications of it ( the detail of which I won't go into ).
But jump timing is only part of the problem with HL bunnyhopping, the other is about matching the arc of turn with the direction of movement. I don't think it is particularly hard to learn, I think that pretty much anyone who wants to bunnyhop can learn it given the right pointers. My objection isn't that it is easy or hard, and none of the changes we have made ( or can make - e.g. the addition of buffered jumping as in quake ) will change the fundamentals of my position: the movement trick is non-intuitive and non-repeatable based on observation. Apart from a few very smart people, pretty much everyone who has learned how to bunnyhop has had to have a few esoteric ideas explained to them. Be it the use of special, scripts, mousewheel, an external macro program or be it the rather complicated explanation about matching strafe direction and arc of turn to the direciton of movement. Oh, and unless I forget the most obvious non-intuitive aspect of bunnyhopping: do not press the forward key to go forward faster.
While lateral movement logically would not allow you to speed up, it is immediately obvious for anyone who tries wiggle walking that it does speed you up. You watch someone who can do it, ask how they do it, imitate and immediately experience part of the benifit.
I hope we can agree that while techniques should be intuitive and easy to mimic, they don't have to be immediately obvious to any new player without seeing someone else do it. The basic wiggle walk technique fits this bill.
[Edit] As an interesting side point: when I 'teach' bunny hopping I always try to first introduce the concept of strafe jumping once to close distances. While the concept of bunnyhopping (strafejumping continuously while maintaining forward momentum) might be hard to grasp at first, strafing and jumping once in the direction you are strafing and then turning to match your field of view to the direction you are going is much less so. It might even be considered somewhat intuitive (at least it does provide direct feedback by confirming that you do indeed control your movement in the air, and gain speed by doing so). Actually, most players already do this to some degree, without realising it uses the same basic movement patterns and same game mechanics as continuous bunnyhopping does.
[Edit2] partly spell checked the post
I've got a video of me bhopping, im going faster IRL!! :\. GG NS2 nobhop = less old schoolers. "Bunnyhoping adds in game eliteness" now seriously anyone can bhop i learnt in less then five minutes!!!! back in the day. you may aswell remove the skulk if you remove bhop(this may sound stupid but seriously bhop is almost a skill) now i know the devs say it is an exploit, glitch What ever you call it. Isnt the skulk ment to be offensive movement?
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They have explicetely said they will be adding new, more intuitive movement in place of bhop. How can this be a bad thing?
I'm totally with puzl here. I have absolutely nothing against bhop in current NS, but a more intuitive system can only be a positive in NS2.
If we removed everything I cannot do properly the world would consist of two things... sleeping and eating.
That pretty sums up my feelings about the "issue". After that I don't see what else I can add to this conversation.
vote <b>"yeah what he said"</b>
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Yeah, what he said.
<!--quoteo(post=1625526:date=May 7 2007, 09:28 PM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ May 7 2007, 09:28 PM) [snapback]1625526[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
this argument is like: fat kids who cant run complaining that soccer doesnt take coordination or situational awareness or anything, you just need to run fast!
what the ######, honestly
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If you haven't noticed, a lot of people that CAN Bhop are saying that it's not that big of a deal. And we're not talking complete removal, mainly the people against have said remove it for MARINES.
NOTE TO ALL WHO HAVE NOT GRASPED THAT!
Removal for: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
No removal for: <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" />
I've gotten used to people bhopping, its been there so long that its like a part of the game. Bhopping anyway is probably going to be removed because bhopping is a exploit (or something along those lines) of the HL engine. I doubt the Source engine carries on this exploit.
(I don't make the greatest technical made simple sentences)
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hl2dmpro, and you'll see what i mean :>
imo. just make bhop easier for newbs, something like in warsow where jump timing doesn't matter that much.
"IF I CAN'T BUNNYHOP NOBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO BUNNYHOP"
If we removed everything I cannot do properly the world would consist of two things... sleeping and eating.
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Well, I have been having troubles falling asleep lately.
So you might wanne remove sleeping as well. Or at least nerf it down, till you can sleep with both eyes closed ^^
LOL, marines cannot bunnyhop. It's called "double jump"
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Yeah yeah, whatever. Still, they can bhop in a way up a slope, and I've seen them carry some ridiculous momentum with that double jump as well.
i hate the bunny hooping, i wanna remove it too. UNREALISTIC !!!
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yep, stupid bunny hopping! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":angry:" border="0" alt="mad-fix.gif" />
Skill? pah, its only a cheating and a engine glitch.
UWE need to allow the players only jumping after they hit the ground.
But if you use the "bunny hop" glitch, you can handle this?!
maybe i lease my own server and bann all bhopper XD
<b>Bunnyhopping in the Battlefield Series</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exact purpose and benfits have evolved as EA has released patches and fixes for this <b>exploit</b>. Before a patch which disabled players being able to jump in a zig zag motion while also firing their weapon, which was eventually seen to as a form of cheating and also a kickable/bannable offense on servers depending on the owners of the servers preference. Players could jump round a corner, come across an enemy and begin to jump in a random direction while firing, some people viewed this as "unsporting" and "noobery", along with bunny hopping people and firing the weapon people would also prone in "mid air" which became to be known as dolphin diving.
EA has made attempts to reduce the use of this in Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142. With each jump a portion of your sprint stamina is reduced and a player is not able to fire while hopping. However, it still remains a very effective way to evade fire although very unrealistic.
Many servers attempt to place a count on the number of consecutive jumps to label it as bunny hopping. Other server administrators simply use their better judgement. Usually hopping specifically to evade oncoming fire is a kickable/bannable offense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE need to allow the players only jumping after they hit the ground.
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Fun fact: You cannot jump midair.
You always hit the ground, even when bunny hopping.
In order to eliminate bunny hopping UWE needed to remove air-control OR add a jump delay.
Fun fact: You cannot jump midair.
You always hit the ground, even when bunny hopping.
In order to eliminate bunny hopping UWE needed to remove air-control OR add a jump delay.
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ya thats the problem.
maybe fix it with "max player speed" so they cant?
or the marines have a stamina bar (not the aliens) like in day of defeat/Farcry and many other games
you know, in css you will "stop" if you jump, but the bhop works fine.
Valve need to fix that, because its a damn engine glitch.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk</a>
you know, in css you will "stop" if you jump, but the bhop works fine.
Valve need to fix that, because its a damn engine glitch.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAJMPnE10nk</a>
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Well in this case it only works, when you loose elevation. I guess, because they eliminated bhopping on same elevation level, after that they eliminated it when you gain elevation (It was still possible in the beta). Seems like they forgot the remove it when you loose elevation.
Anyway: As you can see it is indeed an integral part of the engine and has been never removed in general, but only for certain scenarios, mainly because air control and spinning mid-air is an important tactic to surpriste enemys when coming around a corner. (Not so much in css bit is is really important in dods)
BUNNYHOP IS BRILLIANT <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/asrifle.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::asrifle::" border="0" alt="asrifle.gif" />
p.s.
Argument sprint would be lame if it was to replace bunnyhop.
I can bunny hopping but I think it should be removed.
If your mouse is not good enough you can't do it effectively.
And it is also look very stupid when a gorge jumping around and 3 times faster then a marine...
Sprint only for marines not for aliens
Also, there is a form of bunnyhopping which the marines can do - backwards. It's really, really hard but it allows you to out distance an alien who is only walking foward - if they're bunnyhopping as well the alien can out run them.