<!--quoteo(post=1631503:date=Jun 5 2007, 06:56 PM:name=BonesX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BonesX @ Jun 5 2007, 06:56 PM) [snapback]1631503[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I also play occasionally over at IAM and between them and us and I have not notice anything OVERPOWERING about the balance. I have notice overpowered teams but that has more to do with the players stacking it than anything else. I do find it amusing that the Marine Team is the simpler more recommended team for newbies and also for the "advanced" players. Does this mean that the Kahraa is recommended for the middle level skills players? meh. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both teams have plenty of use for players that are actually ready to do some work for the team. Marines need often pg guards, res cappers and rt savers while aliens need res builders and biters, maybe spore lerks too. Whether a newbie realizes this and wants to be useful is another thing. I'd say a low skill kharaa player can often beat low skill marine as long as both give their roles a thought and don't end up fighting hallway fights.
<!--quoteo(post=1631376:date=Jun 5 2007, 05:45 AM:name=Arkilae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Arkilae @ Jun 5 2007, 05:45 AM) [snapback]1631376[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So much hate in this thread, it's embarrassing. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Embarrassing to who, you? Patronizing others to begin your post might make you seem a bit elitist yourself. I suggest turning 16 and taking a sophomore writing course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I started playing NS over 3 years ago and I'm still going strong to this bloody day. And it appears that the community has gotten worse, and that includes most of you, especially you Steve. The fun has apparently gone out the window, and cursing, ######, and attacking other players as taken its place. Along with the fact that any of the former will then IGNITE A FIRESTORM of ish upon that person who started the topic, so now what have we done so far in this thread...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fun has apparently gone out the window? Apparent to...oh right, <i>you</i>. Then I guess you're implying that the fun of a game is gone because people are flaming on forums, and, god forbid, CURSING? Not only does this sentence not make sense, you cursed in that sentence, and attacked me in the sentence before without telling me what I've specifically done wrong. You've shown such hypocrisy in a four sentence paragraph, I'm surprised that it's me a day later pointing it out first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) ######ed about public servers and custom servers, just because it's the "Cool" thing to do for NS and CAL/ENSL/ANSL players to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, it's also awesomely cool when half the players you know quit the game because admins have badge syndrome with amx commands and make aimbot bans without any justification. Not to mention these servers' encouragement of a nonadaptive, big brother mentality through failed leadership and map choices like ns_stargateocwallportalroflmao. Really, we just feign to be indignant. There's so many "help me kill these marines!" threads, my head spins sometimes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Whined about balancing of the game because of skill imbalance. 4) And made the community look just a tiny bit more like a bunch of elitists ######s then before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact you would balance the game for uneven teams seems inherently unideal to me. If you want to say just because it's practical to do so, it seems just as practical to encourage a "get better" mentality, which would result in more ideal games between even teams, and add to a higher level of even competition rather than a lower one, so to speak. There's a beautiful depth to the game that goes unseen in about 90% of pub games. Hopefully you understand the frustration when you see it from that angle. An elitist would not have bothered explaining it to you.
Quite basically every single player I've ever played with in a clan has stopped playing, myself included.
As for elitist attitudes, that's just a load of hogwash. What players are highly critical of their own play? Work hard to correct their faults? Work hard to build teamwork within their clan? Work hard to come up with effective and new strategies? Work hard to master every aspect of their game through a process of self improvement? And often when asked are extremely helpful to new players. Oh that's right clanners. Do you understand how much of a humbling process I went through to achieve the level of skill and understanding I had? How many 4-0s defeats at the hands of far superior teams. That's not to say it's not fun, a common misconception is competitive play is all seriousness no fun. Far from it. Personally I get a buzz working with my team to improve and seeing the results of my work on match day. I like the way the team improves together, how you work through problems in your rounds through discussion and practise and how you do not want to let your friends down and so try harder together. Most of all I like playing and socializing with my friends. Yes, friends. I like sitting on IRC talking to my friends. Friends I would not have if I wasn't in a team, and friends I'd not know as well if we weren't as passionate about the game. It's not for everyone thats for sure, but I enjoy the satisfaction I get from self improvement, seeing my team improve and the social experience of clanning. I enjoy it far more than simply joining a server with 15 often totally random people and having my rounds ruined by bad commanders or renegade gorges.
The top players have listened to what more experienced players have had to say. Have learnt from it. We try and offer the same opportunities to newer players that we had and often we get slapped in the face for it. So forgive us for getting annoyed at these threads, because half the time it is simply a case of learn to play the game better, I mean that's what we did. How do I know this? Because I pubbed and then I clanned, and then I pubbed and clanned, and I recognise the differences between the two game types. I see the faults and weaknesses of both, I have experience of both, unlike most people posting in this thread. So why not listen to us? You acknowledge that we're better players than you on the server, yet you seem to have total contempt for both the process we went through to achieve that skill and our points of view in discussions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggest turning 16 and taking a sophomore writing course.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Says the person who spams 90% of the time with posts that are less than 5 words.
Ben.
Erm, I think you are blind the several of the elitist attitudes around here. Some guy talks about the game, clanners rise up and go offtopic about how the topic creator does not have "skill". And then there's the strange mentality of "do not play on pubs" that Tomekki has, though I'm sure he would, since he's quit clans. Then you have clanners like steve that post sarcasm crap 90% of the time. I'm sure there's a little more to clanners than what you describe.
Ok, but that's on the forums. But in-game, so long as you have good games, it's fine. But that doesn't happen. Even what you say Swift, with aliens being able to win... that still doesn't change anything about stacking. It's games where you have 3 guys from clan haha, who join whichever team and dominate the other, causing f4's, players to leave, etc., that destroys the community.
If you are a good player, or rather any player, I think the moral code should be to join the team that is the underdog. You'll get closer and tighter games. If the worse team wins, at least the lesser players can feel good about their wins, perhaps they will play more. That's all we can do for now.
But I do like the idea of randomizing teams. It seems to be the most elegant, simple and easy way to reduce stacking. And I'm talking about it being default, not just a sometimes thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1631486:date=Jun 5 2007, 06:11 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Jun 5 2007, 06:11 PM) [snapback]1631486[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <b>YOU WERE NEW ONCE TOO</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah and i got to the top without holding anyone's hand. I wasn't mentored by some top clanner to become what I am now. I shut up. I watched. I emulated. And eventually I got better.
Wanna get better? Then do it yourself. You're not entitled to anything as a new/ low skilled player.
I've been saying that the problem is stacking and not game balance for a while now.
And yes, at first I though it was the game and the whole "flayra hates aliens" thing... But I played ALOT more learned some pre-emptive strats and realized that anything "cheap" so far can be countered, you just need a good team.. which is hard to get.
Random would be nice, but its hard for me to see it happening. Admins would just get around it, and maybe even send certain players over when they want, defeating the purpose.
<!--quoteo(post=1631559:date=Jun 5 2007, 06:13 PM:name=SmoodCroozn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SmoodCroozn @ Jun 5 2007, 06:13 PM) [snapback]1631559[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Says the person who spams 90% of the time with posts that are less than 5 words.
Ben.
Erm, I think you are blind the several of the elitist attitudes around here. Some guy talks about the game, clanners rise up and go offtopic about how the topic creator does not have "skill". And then there's the strange mentality of "do not play on pubs" that Tomekki has, though I'm sure he would, since he's quit clans. Then you have clanners like steve that post sarcasm crap 90% of the time. I'm sure there's a little more to clanners than what you describe.
Ok, but that's on the forums. But in-game, so long as you have good games, it's fine. But that doesn't happen. Even what you say Swift, with aliens being able to win... that still doesn't change anything about stacking. It's games where you have 3 guys from clan haha, who join whichever team and dominate the other, causing f4's, players to leave, etc., that destroys the community.
If you are a good player, or rather any player, I think the moral code should be to join the team that is the underdog. You'll get closer and tighter games. If the worse team wins, at least the lesser players can feel good about their wins, perhaps they will play more. That's all we can do for now.
But I do like the idea of randomizing teams. It seems to be the most elegant, simple and easy way to reduce stacking. And I'm talking about it being default, not just a sometimes thing. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize that most topic creators complain about something they view as overpowered, and the only reason they think it's overpowered is that they themselves are unable to overcome it, right? Anyways, how many different people is it that do retarded things and get clanners labeled badly, 6, maybe 7 people? Way to generalize.
So many people complain about stacking. Most of the time, isn't it the best player that joins whichever team first? How then can he be accused of stacking? In order to stack, you have to join a team that already has more skilled players than the other team. It's impossible to stack if you're the first person on the team.
Marines are not overpowered. Aliens are just harder to learn to play well, since most of the alien lifeforms are so fragile. Teams of players rush down a long hallway as skulk and are surprised when they die before they get to the marine. So often a reply of "learn to play better" is the correct response.
I didn't get trained by anybody to become the player I am today. I played, and watched. Played some more. Watched some good players, learned what worked and what didn't. I still learn from people that play better than me in certain situations. You'll never find even one player that's the best at everything.
People in clans like to play with other people in their clan. Is that a crime? Would you complain if some crappy clan all joined the same team? No, you wouldn't. Would you complain if there was one good player and 3 bad players from the same clan on one team? I wouldn't, but you'd be surprised at how many people do. For some reason players in this community don't like other players playing with people they know, unless it's themselves that are doing it. The rules always change someone else tries to apply them to you.
I'd rather say "game understanding". Even if a random public player was given all the skill some top clanner has, they couldn't be that effective. The best players have top notch understanding of the logic the game goes. Take a look at the starting post. Most of the suggestions would cause horrible balance problems or have no effect on balance at all. The only suggestion I think might work is the armor increase through hives, but I don't think the devs want to bring it back in the 1st place. There are zero conclusions why marines are so overpowered, could the aliens do or anything relating the game (although the upgrades scaling seems to be the common explanation for marine advantage, but it isn't mentioned either).
If someone started a thread saying that marines are too powerful beacause the 2nd hive has been weakened and aliens are unable to take over the 3rd hive because the marines have too much firepower around, I'd actually give it a thought. Now its just: Marines are overpowered. Do this and that.
Just to clear things out: Nothing wrong with suggesting. I'd just love to see some analysis before throwing in the game altering changes. If you can't create an analysis, you should rather discuss than make direct change suggestions.
<!--quoteo(post=1631376:date=Jun 5 2007, 05:45 AM:name=Arkilae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Arkilae @ Jun 5 2007, 05:45 AM) [snapback]1631376[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm ashamed now to be a NS player at this point, I rarely see people try to help newbies learn in games any more, due to two things, the first being that there are barely any new people playing each day or joining NS, and because people have become so self-absorbed with the game (and themselves) they would rather give a big finger to that player then help. And, hell, trying to find a server with a good admin team, or friendly people is a dime a dozen. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've made at least four long posts about that exact problem in the past 4 months. Sorry but I don't feel like searching them for you. Want a quote? Go get it yourselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1631486:date=Jun 5 2007, 02:11 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Jun 5 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]1631486[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the attitude of only caring about yourself and your fun IS wrong. This attitude can extend well beyond helping new players. If wanted to just play for my own fun, I would never drop a hive, usually fade and occationally go gorge and drop 5 OCs outside marine spawn just to mess around. The reason I don't drop 5 OCs outside marine spawn just to play around, is that I care about the rest of the team's fun too, not just my own.
As for new player hand-holding, when NS was newer, people were much more likely to help new players. New players still need just as much help and tolerance as they did when NS was first released, but now people are less likely to give it to them. And NS suffers for it.
<b>YOU WERE NEW ONCE TOO</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true and yet more than half of the people will never see this and of the ones that do, most of those will be deaf to it.
This has been a consistent problem, but with no real change. Sadly, at this point I can't help but think of what we can learn from this for NS2.
As far as the competitive scene goes I would say it was a thousand times harder to get into when say FAT.c and PD were created a few years ago than it is now. If all I had to deal with was getting beat by better players and having the choice of reading inflammatory remarks on this forum...hah. You guys really have no idea. If anyone in this thread cares about getting any better I'll have you drilling on co_faceoff with me tommorow. If anyone outside this thread cares, send them to me.
Also, people playing for their own fun ranges over every skill level. For every marine not building RT's out of the gun, there's a gorge dropping offense chambers. And the latter is usually a lot worse for that respective team. Just like every race, whether white, black, or whatever, has its ######. Work your brain a little more, when you're generalizing, you're letting it get lazy and complacent.
I find it rather curious that some people seem to believe it is somehow the responsibility of the better players to grab the hand of the less talented players and pull them up. But you can't help people who aren't willing to help themselves. You speak of players who don't offer help to others, yet make absolutely no mention of players who don't seek help.
A long time ago, I used to frequently offer helpful hints such as "Turn around when your teammates behind you are dying" (And I still do occasionally, out of a combination of frustration and pity). And of course, anybody who has ever tried the same thing know from experience that 9/10 times, your teammates will ignore what you say and repeatedly die by skulks dropping down from the exact same vent the last skulk that killed them did twenty seconds ago.
So, here's what I believe: the problem isn't that people aren't willing to teach others, it's that people aren't willing to learn. On servers, I see the new players who ask for help getting it almost all the time from others. Even the despised "clanners" do this; I took a crash course in comming from a CAL player (Regrettably, I can't remember who exactly it was) in small game. I learned crouch-jumping from a NSLearn staff member. I see people trying to help others, without having to be asked. And I also see (this is by far the majority) players who do very dumb things , over and over again. For a significant amount of time, when NSLearn was active, I had the website stuck in my handle as I played. Over the course of several months, I had perhaps 5 people ask me to help them.
This is what the current skill distribution of NS players looks like: --------------------** --------------------** --------------------*** --------------------**** --------------------***** --------------------******* --------------------********* --------------------*********** --------------------************* --------------------************** --------------------*************************** (Total Newbie) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -(Top Competitive Level)
The majority of people suck because they don't learn. If you're the fade who tries to straightline solo two marines with HMGs, I'm talking to you. The resources to become a good player are out there for anybody who has the desire to become better. I don't expect somebody who's just started playing to be flawless. But I do expect somebody who has been playing for months, years even, to not make stupid moves like humping the armory furiously while a skulk is biting at their ankles.
<!--quoteo(post=1631723:date=Jun 6 2007, 04:39 AM:name=Splinter_Steve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Splinter_Steve @ Jun 6 2007, 04:39 AM) [snapback]1631723[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Also, people playing for their own fun ranges over every skill level. For every marine not building RT's out of the gun... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? Do you have any idea how much that sets back the res game for the RTS side of the game? I honestly prefer a useless out of the way OC gorge then a compeditard who thinks ability to aim is instantly equal to massively contributing to his team. At least I know the gorge isn't wasting massive amounts of skill I need playing on the opposite side of the map where it can acctually do damage to the alien map control.
Why the ###### do so many players forget how to play the game as soon as they aren't scrimming/playing matches? Or is it more an issue of not knowing how to be useful when the team strat caller isn't dictating your actions before the round starts?
Every time a commander drops a structure and it isn't build instantly it's a exponential loss of investment. If that RT was up 20 seconds earlier I would have been able to med you 2 more times and that skulk wouldn't have raped you while you spammed my order queues. Not to mention the RT will have made several res less in total before it is eventually taken down by the alien res chompers. I'll agree there is times to ignore a structure and run by, when you need to take a forward position to cover an ally building, or there is a siege location being taken, or you've got a PG up for a shotty rush, or even if there is just some forward group actively dropping RTs that needs backup. But wanting to rush in and kill skulks is not a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1631710:date=Jun 6 2007, 08:38 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Jun 6 2007, 08:38 AM) [snapback]1631710[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'd rather say "game understanding". Even if a random public player was given all the skill some top clanner has, they couldn't be that effective. The best players have top notch understanding of the logic the game goes. Take a look at the starting post. Most of the suggestions would cause horrible balance problems or have no effect on balance at all. The only suggestion I think might work is the armor increase through hives, but I don't think the devs want to bring it back in the 1st place. There are zero conclusions why marines are so overpowered, could the aliens do or anything relating the game (although the upgrades scaling seems to be the common explanation for marine advantage, but it isn't mentioned either).
If someone started a thread saying that marines are too powerful beacause the 2nd hive has been weakened and aliens are unable to take over the 3rd hive because the marines have too much firepower around, I'd actually give it a thought. Now its just: Marines are overpowered. Do this and that.
Just to clear things out: Nothing wrong with suggesting. I'd just love to see some analysis before throwing in the game altering changes. If you can't create an analysis, you should rather discuss than make direct change suggestions. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah someone willing to discuss possibilities, As topic creator it seems as though your calling me out. All i have to say is, you are right. I should have started with the source of the problem before providing solutions.
just a few things off the top of my head
1) Aliens collect res, and then leave the game.. where does the team res go? 2) marines can attack OC's while the OC's cant attack back 3) aliens can control 2 hives and almost all of the res, and not overpower marines 4) Lerks cost 30 res and can die to a 10 res shotgun with no upgrades... in 1 shot 5) Aliens can drop unwanted chambers without the consent of team
im sure i can think of more if needed
since all of my ideas get shot down, lets hear some of your own
<!--quoteo(post=1631743:date=Jun 6 2007, 07:56 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Jun 6 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]1631743[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they are playing for their own fun, not anyone else's (see earlier posts). Also, people are often deluded enough to think that because they can aim someone else should be building. This is certainly true if there is someone else nearby to do the building, but running by a dropped RT when you are the only one around is moronic no matter how godly you are. Most highly skilled players aren't this stupid, but a significant amount are.
But boy did we start two completely different topics in this thread. We need to cut and paste half of them into their own topic I think <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1631486:date=Jun 5 2007, 02:11 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Jun 5 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]1631486[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As for new player hand-holding, when NS was newer, people were much more likely to help new players. New players still need just as much help and tolerance as they did when NS was first released, but now people are less likely to give it to them. And NS suffers for it.
<b>YOU WERE NEW ONCE TOO</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dunno most of the stuff people told me when I was new was a load of crap.
<!--quoteo(post=1631743:date=Jun 6 2007, 07:56 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Jun 6 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]1631743[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I run by RTs without building because I know that my team is better off with me getting to a location where I can prevent the aliens from taking over a side of the map since I move faster than the majority of the players I play with. After the first minute or so, I'll go around helping to build RTs, but if there are other players with me, I'd rather get them to build so I can cover them, since they don't return the favor when I'm building.
<!--quoteo(post=1631743:date=Jun 6 2007, 07:56 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swiftspear @ Jun 6 2007, 07:56 AM) [snapback]1631743[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? Do you have any idea how much that sets back the res game for the RTS side of the game? I honestly prefer a useless out of the way OC gorge then a compeditard who thinks ability to aim is instantly equal to massively contributing to his team. At least I know the gorge isn't wasting massive amounts of skill I need playing on the opposite side of the map where it can acctually do damage to the alien map control. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I have a very aggressive play style, my pattern is usually getting to the gorge eggs at key locations before there's a massive wall of lame or RT dropped. At the key location I'm glad to build that node after I kill the alien node or beat the alien team there. When there's four or five marines going out each side of marine start, the 2 extra seconds the RT is down is hardly a sacrifice on its own, and a great tradeoff if an aggressive play is successful. With my movement and knowledge it's usually successful, but this is hardly a universal explanation. Some just want to go to the keyhole and shoot ######liens before anybody else gets there. If you can't tell, I really don't like dealing with fat <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> with their HP with heal spray still retardedly high to deal with. What's funny is, you hit an RT you'll probably get 3 skulks coming. Hit a hive you're lucky if one skulk comes. An offense chamber, the entire alien team reroutes itself to your location. People love their goddamn "play the game for me" chambers.
<!--quoteo(post=1631809:date=Jun 6 2007, 07:46 AM:name=SecretAgentMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SecretAgentMan @ Jun 6 2007, 07:46 AM) [snapback]1631809[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ah someone willing to discuss possibilities, As topic creator it seems as though your calling me out. All i have to say is, you are right. I should have started with the source of the problem before providing solutions.
just a few things off the top of my head
1) Aliens collect res, and then leave the game.. where does the team res go? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It disappears. Some servers have a plugin that stores that res for other people who latejoin the game (Which I think is a good solution). Having that res just redistributed would screw over somebody who lags out then reconnects and could be exploited to transfer res between players on the alien team. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 2) marines can attack OC's while the OC's cant attack back <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bad OC placement. OCs are meant to supplement your defense anyways, not act as an impenetrable fortress. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 3) aliens can control 2 hives and almost all of the res, and not overpower marines <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not enough/bad lifeforms. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 4) Lerks cost 30 res and can die to a 10 res shotgun with no upgrades... in 1 shot <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it doesn't. If you're playing a lerk like a skulk or fade, then you're probably doing it wrong anyways. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> 5) Aliens can drop unwanted chambers without the consent of team
im sure i can think of more if needed
since all of my ideas get shot down, lets hear some of your own <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And commanders can drop unwanted armories without the consent of the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1631912:date=Jun 6 2007, 02:21 PM:name=Splinter_Steve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Splinter_Steve @ Jun 6 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]1631912[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Personally I have a very aggressive play style, my pattern is usually getting to the gorge eggs at key locations before there's a massive wall of lame or RT dropped. At the key location I'm glad to build that node after I kill the alien node or beat the alien team there. When there's four or five marines going out each side of marine start, the 2 extra seconds the RT is down is hardly a sacrifice on its own, and a great tradeoff if an aggressive play is successful. With my movement and knowledge it's usually successful, but this is hardly a universal explanation. Some just want to go to the keyhole and shoot ######liens before anybody else gets there. If you can't tell, I really don't like dealing with fat <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> with their HP with heal spray still retardedly high to deal with. What's funny is, you hit an RT you'll probably get 3 skulks coming. Hit a hive you're lucky if one skulk comes. An offense chamber, the entire alien team reroutes itself to your location. People love their goddamn "play the game for me" chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I very rarely see you guys catching a gorge egg... occasionally you'll get in just after the node is dropped before the gorge can finish building it, but usually skulks stop you even before that. And the thing is, if for some reason you didn't have someone following you to pick up the nodes you ignored, you've delayed my res game for a good minute, probably just to give the aliens RFK and cost me ridiculous amounts of res on ammo and meds for a marine with no upgrades or grenades in the early seconds of the game. If res nodes get build the instant they get dropped it sets the marine res game WAY ahead, meaning earlier upgrades, more shotguns, and more meds/ammo. Aliens in the early games in pubs have default map control that is slowly rescinded as groups of marines fan out into the map, you alone won't fix that, you will cost more then you're worth if you're anywhere near the alien hive in the early game without upgrades.
If you're running by nodes in the late game for no established reason it's even worse. You have no real chance of catching a gorge egg or anything valuable, your best hope is to establish a spawn camp, and I don't care who you are, I've seen it tried a million times, and it just amounts to wasted res in meds/ammo. Solo marines don't have enough power to establish a spawncamp against the average alien pub team, period. You'd be infinitely more valuable on the other side of the map taking down res nodes and eliminating alien map territory with the rest of the marine group, because aliens pushing on a marine group are easily baited by crackshots, and you not being there is usually the difference between the PG going up, the alien node going down, or all the marines dying to more or less marginal pressure. You aren't pressuring the aliens forcing them to deal with you right after they've spawned, they just quickly deal with you and go about their business... if you kill them on the other side of the map though, they've wasted all that time running up to your location just to get taken out just as easily, if not more easily then they would have been close to their hive. The more work you force the enemy team to do in order to kill you, and retake the map control that you have taken, the more valuable you are.
Maybe not a lot of players do swift, I'm just talking personally as far as a map control success rate. To sacrifice potential map control for 1-5 extra res is beyond stupid, especially in a scrim. It's always beyond me why some of the teams I've played for do what I call "courteous NS" where you plan to take the alien team head on in a predictable combination of rushes and phase gates. If you're ready for or even get behind the ambushes, it is -huge-. The more you concede in this game the less you'll grow as a player. This is the difference between those players who shoot the OC and those who double jump around the OC and kill the gorge.
If on a fourteen person server only one of your players went to one of the starting cap nodes, you're in for a long battle of armory humping and shouting "GO THROUGH THE PHASE GATE WTF". Spoilers: you're gonna lose anyway. I'm not disputing the late game.
Offensive pressure makes capping nodes easier. If you send 3 marines to overlook then skulks will attack overlook or west skylights. If you send one marine to overlook and two to system waypointing then skulks will be primarily concerned with the offense you've started and node pressure will be limited to a few skulks at the most. That's why good players run past nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=1632061:date=Jun 7 2007, 03:17 AM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBen @ Jun 7 2007, 03:17 AM) [snapback]1632061[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Offensive pressure makes capping nodes easier. If you send 3 marines to overlook then skulks will attack overlook or west skylights. If you send one marine to overlook and two to system waypointing then skulks will be primarily concerned with the offense you've started and node pressure will be limited to a few skulks at the most. That's why good players run past nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In pubs you don't send 3 marines, 1 marine runs off towards the alien hive, runs by the node, dies nearly effortlessly because he's alone, even though if he was in a scrim with backup he would be an amazing player. 2 marines run off the other direction, and build nodes, but they have pressure anyways because the 1 rambo isn't enough to significantly distract the nubby pub aliens who don't really do much to actively defend their primary hive anyways, because they know pub marines won't be organized enough to rush their nodes. And the other 2 players hump the armory and wander aimlessly around marine start asking for orders, because they are so new to the game they legitimately don't know what they are doing.
I know if you SEND 3 marines somewhere, and they are all decent, they get stuff done unless the aliens really reel back and attempt to counter them, but that virtually never happens in a pub game. Even if you can get 3 clanners to stick together and go do something, unless they are in the same clan and are used to that task they usually don't work together as efficiently as they should be because different teams run different formations and different assault strategies.
In pubs every aspect of your play needs to accommodate the fact that your whole team isn't on board for a coherent and organized offensive. So while I agree, you definitely still need to be offensive as a marine team, you need to be conservatively offensive. Basically you need to take locations that force the aliens to run to you to defend them, not push into the heart of alien territory and then loop back the way you would in a scrim/match. As for jumping over an OC an killing the gorge, you should still be doing that, but you should be doing that as far away from the alien hive as possible... You don't have the backup to come around and clean up the OC behind you if you are right infront of the alien hive. Let the aliens waste res on OCs in their hive, you should't be around there anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1632185:date=Jun 7 2007, 01:47 PM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Jun 7 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]1632185[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> <i><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Editted. See above<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy CRAP you need to calm down. Saying stuff like that is going to get this thread locked and destroy the potential for any further discussion.
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Mrben, I agree running past nodes is ok if you have someone following behind you because pressure is of course a good thing. But if you are alone or with someone who didn't stop either and a node is dropped you need to build it.
It doesn't take that long and every minute that the node hasn't been built is 15 less res the team has for the rest of the game. I know the counter to that is you'd rather take out aliens trying to build res. That's important too, but the one minute you spend building a node is worth it in my view. 15 res = shotty+welder, which can easily make up for the small delay in pressure time. That's assuming someone else got there within a minute. The more time it takes for someone to catch up and build the more equipment/upgrades are delayed.
<!--quoteo(post=1632191:date=Jun 7 2007, 05:58 PM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Jun 7 2007, 05:58 PM) [snapback]1632191[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> DURRRR 32 players attract players to stay in this dying game, do you honestly think new players go "oh this will be fun getting spawn camped with 6 other players THIS GAMES FUN" they stay in big servers cause it's more sociable than the small servers
maybe it's PEOPLE like you who hurt NS with your idiotic elitist attitude regarding something as trivial as server size, you should try playing ns for fun someday instead of trying to jerk off and be the top scorer <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post further solidifies my opinion that 32 player servers attract the wrong type of person to NS. Angry, dumb, insulting players don't belong here. Sorry gumhat.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Ok... I agree that large servers are simply to much but lets face it.. puzl, A DEV, has stated on THESE forums that ns is NOT just balanced for 6 vs 6. They try to balance for everything. Saying its supposed to is NOT a valid statement.
furthermore I totatally agree that with such comments this is only getting locked and the real discusion was finally going somewhere
I stopped pubbing for that reason. You can't call what happens on public commanding. When I command I want to execute a strategy, I want to actually control where my marines go and react to a situation when I want, not when it suits joeblogs to finally understand I know what I'm talking about and should be listened to. How you can guage if marine's are overpowered in an environment like that is beyond me. You can't. Certain individuals are overpowered and capable of winning the round through no fault of the game, and the same can be said for either marines or aliens.
And Kain, a good player will recognize if the situation warrants running past the node or not, they won't do it regardless. If they do then simply put: they're not a good player (excluding wzza).
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I have been called a good to very good public (read PUB) comm in every version I ever played because I just 'wing it'. No tactic stays intact when you have first contact... noone. I tend to react to the situation as much as I can. If I did not notice its because I have not commanded in months.. when I am 'in the game' from commanding on regular basis I do notice everything my rines see. Hives, chambers, w/e... take notice, react, push.
Comming pub games is not having a plan, its making a plan up as you go. When I want a hive to rush I usually do not care which one. Can you reach it? Fine, lets rush it. No point to rush the totally undefended hive on the other side of the map if you pas 3 chokepoints and never make it. Can we reach both? good, I will med you and we will see which goes down first. In pubs most kharaa teams can't counter to hive rushes, I will be damn sure I will keep them rushing to hives whenever the oppertunity arrises.
Its all planning as we go ahead and for pubs that works brillianty.
Comming public is about hope and spam. You make it up as you go along yes because you simply don't have any other choice. You won't have disciplined marines, not that you need them versus an equally undisciplined alien side who may not even get chambers. Only way to really command properly is to play on a locked server, preferably with ventrillo and with your friends.
Then you get the best of both worlds, you can control your marines and plan your opening gambit setting the tone for your round and after that you make it up as you go along, responding to events as they happen, except you have to be more on your toes and your own orders are followed promptly and precisely. It's far more challenging than pointing and hoping for the best, the game requires your constant attention and thorough knowledge of NS to know how to handle any given situation.
I agree with ben, I mean lets face it, the only 'good' public comms, are competetive comms playing on public, who have a mic and are literally shouting at their team for the majority of the round telling every other player exactly what to do and when.
Comments
I also play occasionally over at IAM and between them and us and I have not notice anything OVERPOWERING about the balance. I have notice overpowered teams but that has more to do with the players stacking it than anything else. I do find it amusing that the Marine Team is the simpler more recommended team for newbies and also for the "advanced" players. Does this mean that the Kahraa is recommended for the middle level skills players? meh.
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Both teams have plenty of use for players that are actually ready to do some work for the team. Marines need often pg guards, res cappers and rt savers while aliens need res builders and biters, maybe spore lerks too. Whether a newbie realizes this and wants to be useful is another thing. I'd say a low skill kharaa player can often beat low skill marine as long as both give their roles a thought and don't end up fighting hallway fights.
So much hate in this thread, it's embarrassing.
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Embarrassing to who, you? Patronizing others to begin your post might make you seem a bit elitist yourself. I suggest turning 16 and taking a sophomore writing course.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I started playing NS over 3 years ago and I'm still going strong to this bloody day. And it appears that the community has gotten worse, and that includes most of you, especially you Steve. The fun has apparently gone out the window, and cursing, ######, and attacking other players as taken its place. Along with the fact that any of the former will then IGNITE A FIRESTORM of ish upon that person who started the topic, so now what have we done so far in this thread...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fun has apparently gone out the window? Apparent to...oh right, <i>you</i>. Then I guess you're implying that the fun of a game is gone because people are flaming on forums, and, god forbid, CURSING? Not only does this sentence not make sense, you cursed in that sentence, and attacked me in the sentence before without telling me what I've specifically done wrong. You've shown such hypocrisy in a four sentence paragraph, I'm surprised that it's me a day later pointing it out first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) ######ed about public servers and custom servers, just because it's the "Cool" thing to do for NS and CAL/ENSL/ANSL players to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, it's also awesomely cool when half the players you know quit the game because admins have badge syndrome with amx commands and make aimbot bans without any justification. Not to mention these servers' encouragement of a nonadaptive, big brother mentality through failed leadership and map choices like ns_stargateocwallportalroflmao. Really, we just feign to be indignant. There's so many "help me kill these marines!" threads, my head spins sometimes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Whined about balancing of the game because of skill imbalance.
4) And made the community look just a tiny bit more like a bunch of elitists ######s then before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact you would balance the game for uneven teams seems inherently unideal to me. If you want to say just because it's practical to do so, it seems just as practical to encourage a "get better" mentality, which would result in more ideal games between even teams, and add to a higher level of even competition rather than a lower one, so to speak. There's a beautiful depth to the game that goes unseen in about 90% of pub games. Hopefully you understand the frustration when you see it from that angle. An elitist would not have bothered explaining it to you.
As for elitist attitudes, that's just a load of hogwash. What players are highly critical of their own play? Work hard to correct their faults? Work hard to build teamwork within their clan? Work hard to come up with effective and new strategies? Work hard to master every aspect of their game through a process of self improvement? And often when asked are extremely helpful to new players. Oh that's right clanners. Do you understand how much of a humbling process I went through to achieve the level of skill and understanding I had? How many 4-0s defeats at the hands of far superior teams. That's not to say it's not fun, a common misconception is competitive play is all seriousness no fun. Far from it. Personally I get a buzz working with my team to improve and seeing the results of my work on match day. I like the way the team improves together, how you work through problems in your rounds through discussion and practise and how you do not want to let your friends down and so try harder together. Most of all I like playing and socializing with my friends. Yes, friends. I like sitting on IRC talking to my friends. Friends I would not have if I wasn't in a team, and friends I'd not know as well if we weren't as passionate about the game. It's not for everyone thats for sure, but I enjoy the satisfaction I get from self improvement, seeing my team improve and the social experience of clanning. I enjoy it far more than simply joining a server with 15 often totally random people and having my rounds ruined by bad commanders or renegade gorges.
The top players have listened to what more experienced players have had to say. Have learnt from it. We try and offer the same opportunities to newer players that we had and often we get slapped in the face for it. So forgive us for getting annoyed at these threads, because half the time it is simply a case of learn to play the game better, I mean that's what we did. How do I know this? Because I pubbed and then I clanned, and then I pubbed and clanned, and I recognise the differences between the two game types. I see the faults and weaknesses of both, I have experience of both, unlike most people posting in this thread. So why not listen to us? You acknowledge that we're better players than you on the server, yet you seem to have total contempt for both the process we went through to achieve that skill and our points of view in discussions.
Ben.
Erm, I think you are blind the several of the elitist attitudes around here. Some guy talks about the game, clanners rise up and go offtopic about how the topic creator does not have "skill". And then there's the strange mentality of "do not play on pubs" that Tomekki has, though I'm sure he would, since he's quit clans. Then you have clanners like steve that post sarcasm crap 90% of the time. I'm sure there's a little more to clanners than what you describe.
Ok, but that's on the forums. But in-game, so long as you have good games, it's fine. But that doesn't happen. Even what you say Swift, with aliens being able to win... that still doesn't change anything about stacking. It's games where you have 3 guys from clan haha, who join whichever team and dominate the other, causing f4's, players to leave, etc., that destroys the community.
If you are a good player, or rather any player, I think the moral code should be to join the team that is the underdog. You'll get closer and tighter games. If the worse team wins, at least the lesser players can feel good about their wins, perhaps they will play more. That's all we can do for now.
But I do like the idea of randomizing teams. It seems to be the most elegant, simple and easy way to reduce stacking. And I'm talking about it being default, not just a sometimes thing.
<b>YOU WERE NEW ONCE TOO</b>
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Yeah and i got to the top without holding anyone's hand. I wasn't mentored by some top clanner to become what I am now. I shut up. I watched. I emulated. And eventually I got better.
Wanna get better? Then do it yourself. You're not entitled to anything as a new/ low skilled player.
And yes, at first I though it was the game and the whole "flayra hates aliens" thing... But I played ALOT more learned some pre-emptive strats and realized that anything "cheap" so far can be countered, you just need a good team.. which is hard to get.
Random would be nice, but its hard for me to see it happening. Admins would just get around it, and maybe even send certain players over when they want, defeating the purpose.
Says the person who spams 90% of the time with posts that are less than 5 words.
Ben.
Erm, I think you are blind the several of the elitist attitudes around here. Some guy talks about the game, clanners rise up and go offtopic about how the topic creator does not have "skill". And then there's the strange mentality of "do not play on pubs" that Tomekki has, though I'm sure he would, since he's quit clans. Then you have clanners like steve that post sarcasm crap 90% of the time. I'm sure there's a little more to clanners than what you describe.
Ok, but that's on the forums. But in-game, so long as you have good games, it's fine. But that doesn't happen. Even what you say Swift, with aliens being able to win... that still doesn't change anything about stacking. It's games where you have 3 guys from clan haha, who join whichever team and dominate the other, causing f4's, players to leave, etc., that destroys the community.
If you are a good player, or rather any player, I think the moral code should be to join the team that is the underdog. You'll get closer and tighter games. If the worse team wins, at least the lesser players can feel good about their wins, perhaps they will play more. That's all we can do for now.
But I do like the idea of randomizing teams. It seems to be the most elegant, simple and easy way to reduce stacking. And I'm talking about it being default, not just a sometimes thing.
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You realize that most topic creators complain about something they view as overpowered, and the only reason they think it's overpowered is that they themselves are unable to overcome it, right? Anyways, how many different people is it that do retarded things and get clanners labeled badly, 6, maybe 7 people? Way to generalize.
So many people complain about stacking. Most of the time, isn't it the best player that joins whichever team first? How then can he be accused of stacking? In order to stack, you have to join a team that already has more skilled players than the other team. It's impossible to stack if you're the first person on the team.
Marines are not overpowered. Aliens are just harder to learn to play well, since most of the alien lifeforms are so fragile. Teams of players rush down a long hallway as skulk and are surprised when they die before they get to the marine. So often a reply of "learn to play better" is the correct response.
I didn't get trained by anybody to become the player I am today. I played, and watched. Played some more. Watched some good players, learned what worked and what didn't. I still learn from people that play better than me in certain situations. You'll never find even one player that's the best at everything.
People in clans like to play with other people in their clan. Is that a crime? Would you complain if some crappy clan all joined the same team? No, you wouldn't. Would you complain if there was one good player and 3 bad players from the same clan on one team? I wouldn't, but you'd be surprised at how many people do. For some reason players in this community don't like other players playing with people they know, unless it's themselves that are doing it. The rules always change someone else tries to apply them to you.
"skill".
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I'd rather say "game understanding". Even if a random public player was given all the skill some top clanner has, they couldn't be that effective. The best players have top notch understanding of the logic the game goes. Take a look at the starting post. Most of the suggestions would cause horrible balance problems or have no effect on balance at all. The only suggestion I think might work is the armor increase through hives, but I don't think the devs want to bring it back in the 1st place. There are zero conclusions why marines are so overpowered, could the aliens do or anything relating the game (although the upgrades scaling seems to be the common explanation for marine advantage, but it isn't mentioned either).
If someone started a thread saying that marines are too powerful beacause the 2nd hive has been weakened and aliens are unable to take over the 3rd hive because the marines have too much firepower around, I'd actually give it a thought. Now its just: Marines are overpowered. Do this and that.
Just to clear things out: Nothing wrong with suggesting. I'd just love to see some analysis before throwing in the game altering changes. If you can't create an analysis, you should rather discuss than make direct change suggestions.
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I've made at least four long posts about that exact problem in the past 4 months. Sorry but I don't feel like searching them for you. Want a quote? Go get it yourselves.
<!--quoteo(post=1631486:date=Jun 5 2007, 02:11 PM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ Jun 5 2007, 02:11 PM) [snapback]1631486[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe the attitude of only caring about yourself and your fun IS wrong. This attitude can extend well beyond helping new players. If wanted to just play for my own fun, I would never drop a hive, usually fade and occationally go gorge and drop 5 OCs outside marine spawn just to mess around. The reason I don't drop 5 OCs outside marine spawn just to play around, is that I care about the rest of the team's fun too, not just my own.
As for new player hand-holding, when NS was newer, people were much more likely to help new players. New players still need just as much help and tolerance as they did when NS was first released, but now people are less likely to give it to them. And NS suffers for it.
<b>YOU WERE NEW ONCE TOO</b>
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Very true and yet more than half of the people will never see this and of the ones that do, most of those will be deaf to it.
This has been a consistent problem, but with no real change. Sadly, at this point I can't help but think of what we can learn from this for NS2.
Also, people playing for their own fun ranges over every skill level. For every marine not building RT's out of the gun, there's a gorge dropping offense chambers. And the latter is usually a lot worse for that respective team. Just like every race, whether white, black, or whatever, has its ######. Work your brain a little more, when you're generalizing, you're letting it get lazy and complacent.
fin
A long time ago, I used to frequently offer helpful hints such as "Turn around when your teammates behind you are dying" (And I still do occasionally, out of a combination of frustration and pity). And of course, anybody who has ever tried the same thing know from experience that 9/10 times, your teammates will ignore what you say and repeatedly die by skulks dropping down from the exact same vent the last skulk that killed them did twenty seconds ago.
So, here's what I believe: the problem isn't that people aren't willing to teach others, it's that people aren't willing to learn. On servers, I see the new players who ask for help getting it almost all the time from others. Even the despised "clanners" do this; I took a crash course in comming from a CAL player (Regrettably, I can't remember who exactly it was) in small game. I learned crouch-jumping from a NSLearn staff member. I see people trying to help others, without having to be asked. And I also see (this is by far the majority) players who do very dumb things , over and over again. For a significant amount of time, when NSLearn was active, I had the website stuck in my handle as I played. Over the course of several months, I had perhaps 5 people ask me to help them.
This is what the current skill distribution of NS players looks like:
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(Total Newbie) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -(Top Competitive Level)
The majority of people suck because they don't learn. If you're the fade who tries to straightline solo two marines with HMGs, I'm talking to you. The resources to become a good player are out there for anybody who has the desire to become better. I don't expect somebody who's just started playing to be flawless. But I do expect somebody who has been playing for months, years even, to not make stupid moves like humping the armory furiously while a skulk is biting at their ankles.
Also, people playing for their own fun ranges over every skill level. For every marine not building RT's out of the gun...
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I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? Do you have any idea how much that sets back the res game for the RTS side of the game? I honestly prefer a useless out of the way OC gorge then a compeditard who thinks ability to aim is instantly equal to massively contributing to his team. At least I know the gorge isn't wasting massive amounts of skill I need playing on the opposite side of the map where it can acctually do damage to the alien map control.
Why the ###### do so many players forget how to play the game as soon as they aren't scrimming/playing matches? Or is it more an issue of not knowing how to be useful when the team strat caller isn't dictating your actions before the round starts?
Every time a commander drops a structure and it isn't build instantly it's a exponential loss of investment. If that RT was up 20 seconds earlier I would have been able to med you 2 more times and that skulk wouldn't have raped you while you spammed my order queues. Not to mention the RT will have made several res less in total before it is eventually taken down by the alien res chompers. I'll agree there is times to ignore a structure and run by, when you need to take a forward position to cover an ally building, or there is a siege location being taken, or you've got a PG up for a shotty rush, or even if there is just some forward group actively dropping RTs that needs backup. But wanting to rush in and kill skulks is not a reason.
I'd rather say "game understanding". Even if a random public player was given all the skill some top clanner has, they couldn't be that effective. The best players have top notch understanding of the logic the game goes. Take a look at the starting post. Most of the suggestions would cause horrible balance problems or have no effect on balance at all. The only suggestion I think might work is the armor increase through hives, but I don't think the devs want to bring it back in the 1st place. There are zero conclusions why marines are so overpowered, could the aliens do or anything relating the game (although the upgrades scaling seems to be the common explanation for marine advantage, but it isn't mentioned either).
If someone started a thread saying that marines are too powerful beacause the 2nd hive has been weakened and aliens are unable to take over the 3rd hive because the marines have too much firepower around, I'd actually give it a thought. Now its just: Marines are overpowered. Do this and that.
Just to clear things out: Nothing wrong with suggesting. I'd just love to see some analysis before throwing in the game altering changes. If you can't create an analysis, you should rather discuss than make direct change suggestions.
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Ah someone willing to discuss possibilities, As topic creator it seems as though your calling me out. All i have to say is, you are right. I should have started with the source of the problem before providing solutions.
just a few things off the top of my head
1) Aliens collect res, and then leave the game.. where does the team res go?
2) marines can attack OC's while the OC's cant attack back
3) aliens can control 2 hives and almost all of the res, and not overpower marines
4) Lerks cost 30 res and can die to a 10 res shotgun with no upgrades... in 1 shot
5) Aliens can drop unwanted chambers without the consent of team
im sure i can think of more if needed
since all of my ideas get shot down, lets hear some of your own
I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they are playing for their own fun, not anyone else's (see earlier posts). Also, people are often deluded enough to think that because they can aim someone else should be building. This is certainly true if there is someone else nearby to do the building, but running by a dropped RT when you are the only one around is moronic no matter how godly you are. Most highly skilled players aren't this stupid, but a significant amount are.
But boy did we start two completely different topics in this thread. We need to cut and paste half of them into their own topic I think <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
As for new player hand-holding, when NS was newer, people were much more likely to help new players. New players still need just as much help and tolerance as they did when NS was first released, but now people are less likely to give it to them. And NS suffers for it.
<b>YOU WERE NEW ONCE TOO</b>
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I dunno most of the stuff people told me when I was new was a load of crap.
I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make?
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I run by RTs without building because I know that my team is better off with me getting to a location where I can prevent the aliens from taking over a side of the map since I move faster than the majority of the players I play with. After the first minute or so, I'll go around helping to build RTs, but if there are other players with me, I'd rather get them to build so I can cover them, since they don't return the favor when I'm building.
I want to know what the ###### is up with that... Seriously, at what point did pseudo intelligent players decide that running by RT's is the smart move to make? Do you have any idea how much that sets back the res game for the RTS side of the game? I honestly prefer a useless out of the way OC gorge then a compeditard who thinks ability to aim is instantly equal to massively contributing to his team. At least I know the gorge isn't wasting massive amounts of skill I need playing on the opposite side of the map where it can acctually do damage to the alien map control.
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Personally I have a very aggressive play style, my pattern is usually getting to the gorge eggs at key locations before there's a massive wall of lame or RT dropped. At the key location I'm glad to build that node after I kill the alien node or beat the alien team there. When there's four or five marines going out each side of marine start, the 2 extra seconds the RT is down is hardly a sacrifice on its own, and a great tradeoff if an aggressive play is successful. With my movement and knowledge it's usually successful, but this is hardly a universal explanation. Some just want to go to the keyhole and shoot ######liens before anybody else gets there. If you can't tell, I really don't like dealing with fat <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> with their HP with heal spray still retardedly high to deal with. What's funny is, you hit an RT you'll probably get 3 skulks coming. Hit a hive you're lucky if one skulk comes. An offense chamber, the entire alien team reroutes itself to your location. People love their goddamn "play the game for me" chambers.
Ah someone willing to discuss possibilities, As topic creator it seems as though your calling me out. All i have to say is, you are right. I should have started with the source of the problem before providing solutions.
just a few things off the top of my head
1) Aliens collect res, and then leave the game.. where does the team res go?
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It disappears. Some servers have a plugin that stores that res for other people who latejoin the game (Which I think is a good solution). Having that res just redistributed would screw over somebody who lags out then reconnects and could be exploited to transfer res between players on the alien team.
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2) marines can attack OC's while the OC's cant attack back
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Bad OC placement. OCs are meant to supplement your defense anyways, not act as an impenetrable fortress.
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3) aliens can control 2 hives and almost all of the res, and not overpower marines
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Not enough/bad lifeforms.
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4) Lerks cost 30 res and can die to a 10 res shotgun with no upgrades... in 1 shot
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No it doesn't. If you're playing a lerk like a skulk or fade, then you're probably doing it wrong anyways.
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5) Aliens can drop unwanted chambers without the consent of team
im sure i can think of more if needed
since all of my ideas get shot down, lets hear some of your own
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And commanders can drop unwanted armories without the consent of the team.
Personally I have a very aggressive play style, my pattern is usually getting to the gorge eggs at key locations before there's a massive wall of lame or RT dropped. At the key location I'm glad to build that node after I kill the alien node or beat the alien team there. When there's four or five marines going out each side of marine start, the 2 extra seconds the RT is down is hardly a sacrifice on its own, and a great tradeoff if an aggressive play is successful. With my movement and knowledge it's usually successful, but this is hardly a universal explanation. Some just want to go to the keyhole and shoot ######liens before anybody else gets there. If you can't tell, I really don't like dealing with fat <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> with their HP with heal spray still retardedly high to deal with. What's funny is, you hit an RT you'll probably get 3 skulks coming. Hit a hive you're lucky if one skulk comes. An offense chamber, the entire alien team reroutes itself to your location. People love their goddamn "play the game for me" chambers.
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I very rarely see you guys catching a gorge egg... occasionally you'll get in just after the node is dropped before the gorge can finish building it, but usually skulks stop you even before that. And the thing is, if for some reason you didn't have someone following you to pick up the nodes you ignored, you've delayed my res game for a good minute, probably just to give the aliens RFK and cost me ridiculous amounts of res on ammo and meds for a marine with no upgrades or grenades in the early seconds of the game. If res nodes get build the instant they get dropped it sets the marine res game WAY ahead, meaning earlier upgrades, more shotguns, and more meds/ammo. Aliens in the early games in pubs have default map control that is slowly rescinded as groups of marines fan out into the map, you alone won't fix that, you will cost more then you're worth if you're anywhere near the alien hive in the early game without upgrades.
If you're running by nodes in the late game for no established reason it's even worse. You have no real chance of catching a gorge egg or anything valuable, your best hope is to establish a spawn camp, and I don't care who you are, I've seen it tried a million times, and it just amounts to wasted res in meds/ammo. Solo marines don't have enough power to establish a spawncamp against the average alien pub team, period. You'd be infinitely more valuable on the other side of the map taking down res nodes and eliminating alien map territory with the rest of the marine group, because aliens pushing on a marine group are easily baited by crackshots, and you not being there is usually the difference between the PG going up, the alien node going down, or all the marines dying to more or less marginal pressure. You aren't pressuring the aliens forcing them to deal with you right after they've spawned, they just quickly deal with you and go about their business... if you kill them on the other side of the map though, they've wasted all that time running up to your location just to get taken out just as easily, if not more easily then they would have been close to their hive. The more work you force the enemy team to do in order to kill you, and retake the map control that you have taken, the more valuable you are.
If on a fourteen person server only one of your players went to one of the starting cap nodes, you're in for a long battle of armory humping and shouting "GO THROUGH THE PHASE GATE WTF". Spoilers: you're gonna lose anyway. I'm not disputing the late game.
Offensive pressure makes capping nodes easier. If you send 3 marines to overlook then skulks will attack overlook or west skylights. If you send one marine to overlook and two to system waypointing then skulks will be primarily concerned with the offense you've started and node pressure will be limited to a few skulks at the most. That's why good players run past nodes.
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In pubs you don't send 3 marines, 1 marine runs off towards the alien hive, runs by the node, dies nearly effortlessly because he's alone, even though if he was in a scrim with backup he would be an amazing player. 2 marines run off the other direction, and build nodes, but they have pressure anyways because the 1 rambo isn't enough to significantly distract the nubby pub aliens who don't really do much to actively defend their primary hive anyways, because they know pub marines won't be organized enough to rush their nodes. And the other 2 players hump the armory and wander aimlessly around marine start asking for orders, because they are so new to the game they legitimately don't know what they are doing.
I know if you SEND 3 marines somewhere, and they are all decent, they get stuff done unless the aliens really reel back and attempt to counter them, but that virtually never happens in a pub game. Even if you can get 3 clanners to stick together and go do something, unless they are in the same clan and are used to that task they usually don't work together as efficiently as they should be because different teams run different formations and different assault strategies.
In pubs every aspect of your play needs to accommodate the fact that your whole team isn't on board for a coherent and organized offensive. So while I agree, you definitely still need to be offensive as a marine team, you need to be conservatively offensive. Basically you need to take locations that force the aliens to run to you to defend them, not push into the heart of alien territory and then loop back the way you would in a scrim/match. As for jumping over an OC an killing the gorge, you should still be doing that, but you should be doing that as far away from the alien hive as possible... You don't have the backup to come around and clean up the OC behind you if you are right infront of the alien hive. Let the aliens waste res on OCs in their hive, you should't be around there anyways.
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Yes because NS is balanced for 32 player spamfests like G4B2S.
I doubt its the sarcastic comments thats hurting NS. I think its people like you who will die to protect their 32 player oc/turret/lame fest.
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Holy CRAP you need to calm down. Saying stuff like that is going to get this thread locked and destroy the potential for any further discussion.
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Mrben, I agree running past nodes is ok if you have someone following behind you because pressure is of course a good thing. But if you are alone or with someone who didn't stop either and a node is dropped you need to build it.
It doesn't take that long and every minute that the node hasn't been built is 15 less res the team has for the rest of the game. I know the counter to that is you'd rather take out aliens trying to build res. That's important too, but the one minute you spend building a node is worth it in my view. 15 res = shotty+welder, which can easily make up for the small delay in pressure time. That's assuming someone else got there within a minute. The more time it takes for someone to catch up and build the more equipment/upgrades are delayed.
DURRRR 32 players attract players to stay in this dying game, do you honestly think new players go "oh this will be fun getting spawn camped with 6 other players THIS GAMES FUN" they stay in big servers cause it's more sociable than the small servers
maybe it's PEOPLE like you who hurt NS with your idiotic elitist attitude regarding something as trivial as server size, you should try playing ns for fun someday instead of trying to jerk off and be the top scorer
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This post further solidifies my opinion that 32 player servers attract the wrong type of person to NS. Angry, dumb, insulting players don't belong here. Sorry gumhat.
furthermore I totatally agree that with such comments this is only getting locked and the real discusion was finally going somewhere
And Kain, a good player will recognize if the situation warrants running past the node or not, they won't do it regardless. If they do then simply put: they're not a good player (excluding wzza).
Comming pub games is not having a plan, its making a plan up as you go. When I want a hive to rush I usually do not care which one. Can you reach it? Fine, lets rush it. No point to rush the totally undefended hive on the other side of the map if you pas 3 chokepoints and never make it. Can we reach both? good, I will med you and we will see which goes down first. In pubs most kharaa teams can't counter to hive rushes, I will be damn sure I will keep them rushing to hives whenever the oppertunity arrises.
Its all planning as we go ahead and for pubs that works brillianty.
Then you get the best of both worlds, you can control your marines and plan your opening gambit setting the tone for your round and after that you make it up as you go along, responding to events as they happen, except you have to be more on your toes and your own orders are followed promptly and precisely. It's far more challenging than pointing and hoping for the best, the game requires your constant attention and thorough knowledge of NS to know how to handle any given situation.