Textures?

RSX · June 2007

Ok, so i started working on some custom textures for ns2. A ain't a mapper but i figured theres a lack of this type of textures for source, so i went about creating some. Hopefully this will start you guys of with some decent textures to be able to start mapping.

All textures come with a normal and envmap so don't forget to buildcubemaps.

<a href="http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/17589/2002656767300904386_rs.jpg" target="_blank">Preview</a>

<a href="http://www.dermott.plus.com/ns2.rar" target="_blank">Download</a>
Extract to you materials folder, then use keyword "ns2" in Hammer to search for the textures.

I know theres only 4 textures so far, i'm just looking for feedback at the moment. But i'm gonna keep working and updating them as i finish them. Hopefully ill have a full pack with about 50 textures for the first full release.

I really looking for criticism on these, so feel free to add some.

Also, if anyone as any concepts they would like, please post here as I'm sure ill run out of ideas.

Kassinger · June 2007

I don't know anything about textures or mapping, but aren't these a bit too clean and cartoonish? Shouldn't they be more gritty and dirty? Or will they look more gritty when applied?

Thaldarin · June 2007

The customization and artwork forums can help you a bit more.

As I see comparing them to modern day standards they're pretty flat, lightless and ugly. For a new texture artist they're a good start and basis for expanding in to something nice some day.

ChuckstarNL · June 2007

Here's an ingame example:
<a href="http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ns2textures0000gt9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2134/ns2textures0000gt9.th.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /></a>

StixNStonz · June 2007

Excellent, excellent start RSX. You obviously have the skill to make good textures; but for NS, i think you need to modify them just a tad. Take a look at the stock HL2 textures, especially the ones that are gritty. I think theres actually a photoshop tool that can just 'grittify' your texture; you could take each of those, add a certain level of grit, distortion, scarring, randomness, whatever, and then release both versions of the same texture side by side. Why not give the options for the mappers?

You have made good design decisions so far. I'd probably use the first two and the fourth in my NS2 map, once the NS2TR comes out. I'll see about making a little collage of all the NS1 textures that are my favs, to give you a little example of what some mappers like. With the collage in hand, you can run around my map to see exactly how i used each of them.

I'm planning a huge new release of my map within days, so its what im focusing on right now, but i could probably make that collage a day or two afterward.

Great job though, keep it up.

RSX · June 2007

Kassinger - Yeah they are kinda clean, but don't now what you mean by "cartonish," maybe the base texture isn''t strong enough and thus looking abit cell shaded is all i can assume you mean?

Thaldarin - There's not much i can do about them being flat, since source isn't very good at lighting normal maps thus the only really way to add height is to add edging which looks weird when you start to rotate around the texture. About the textures being lightless, again source should light the textures, once i start adding in baked in lights and shadows they look ok from the point at which they were created for, but again when you rotate around them, the're lit wrong. I did add some baked in lighting and shadowing for the minor detailing, but there's not much more i can do about that? Would you care to elaborate about what you mean by the textures being ugly? In what way? Design? Texture?

StixNStonz - Thanks for the crit, i did add some rust on most of the textures, but then erased the layer because i thought it made the textures look too worn. I've had a quick scan of the hl2 textures, most of them are from photographs which kinda give them the're richness.

Thanks for the crit i keep in mind what you said and hopefully i'll have some new textures done later in the week with the comments you had in mind.

Comprox · June 2007

As you said, the cartoony look comes from the fact that there are very singlular in colour, a bit more diversity in colour/sratches/dents/etc would really make them seem more life like I think. NS environments usually have a worn look to them, and these things look like they just came off of the manufacturing line <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

A very good start though, I was even more impressed when you put that ingame shot.

StixNStonz · June 2007

careful with scratches and dents, etc. If they're too noticeable, then they ruin the texture when its being tiled.

NEX9 · June 2007

Make about five variations of each one with a lot of noise and un-noticable scuff marks and so on.

Then do two or three unquie variations of each textures WITH a HUGE highly noticable diffrance, a ripped hole fer say bullet tracers, fade slash.

in ns 1 you would then go as far as to make another 3-4 variations of each un-noticable and maybe one more unquie but have diffrent lvls of ick and infestation on them.

schkorpio · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jun 7 2007, 12:07 PM) [snapback]1631993[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
diffrent lvls of ick and infestation on them.
</div>
i don't think artists need to worry about infestation, if its all going to be dynamic - even hives after marines clear them out should be clean again - im' guessing though.

great start <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> make them a little more like something out of the aliens movie and you have a winner <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

RSX · June 2007

This any better???

<img src="http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/18072/2002308294562270436_rs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

Archfiendchris · June 2007

I think it's a great start

RSX · June 2007

Again just messing with different themes???
<img src="http://aycu03.webshots.com/image/18082/2002560313867463111_rs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

StixNStonz · June 2007

Heh, you're starting to get the feel for it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

Kassinger · June 2007

Yes, now they do look dirty and more realistic. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Good work!

Annihilatorza · June 2007

Looking good mate I like the latter more as well.

Skyforger · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kassinger @ Jun 6 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]1631792[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
I don't know anything about textures or mapping, but aren't these a bit too clean and cartoonish? Shouldn't they be more gritty and dirty? Or will they look more gritty when applied?
</div>

agree

Reebdoog · June 2007

Try and remove the highlighting from the base texture and do it with normal mapping.

Thaldarin · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RSX @ Jun 7 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]1632188[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
This any better???

<img src="http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/18072/2002308294562270436_rs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
</div>

I quite like that, reminds me of one of the original HL textures.

RSX · June 2007

Thx for the input.

Reebdoog - Unfortunately source is poor at lighting normal maps, so its either pre baked lighting or bland textures.

Unless this changes, i heard hl2 ep2 uses a better lighting model than previous versions so hopefully if the UWE teams uses that for NS2 my problem will be solved.

Maybe i can draw a line using subtle pre baked lighting and source to light them. Will keep testing different techniques.

Crispy · June 2007

Much better now you've given them a worn feel. If you haven't already I strongly suggest you check out <a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gBAtCpyzXCUC&dq=Luke+Ahearn" target="_blank">3D Game Textures by Luke Ahearn</a>. I got it for my brother as a present and I found it very hard to hand it over (been meaning to get a copy for myself ever since).

RSX · June 2007

The book looks really interesting. Although i have skipped through The Dark Side of Game Texturing By David Franson, id say these books are mainly at the old style side of texturing, ie. baking in lighting. Since source is somewhere in between a per-pixel lit engine, its kinda hard to get them looking decent. Books are still good non the less.

Toothy · June 2007

Can you elaborate when you say that source lights normal maps poorly? I've done some experimenting with them and they seem to work fine for me, from any angle.

RSX · June 2007

Basically the highlighting and shadowing are not strong enough. If you look at the doom3 engine, each surface that as been defined in the normal map as strong surface definition. So far I've not seen this unaccomplished in source yet.

If you've got some good results, id love too see them?

J! · June 2007

Source lights normal maps very well. I'd say it might be a problem with your normal maps, not the way Source is rendering them.

Toothy · June 2007

I've been experimenting with loads of different textures, but this one is a good example of it (I think). I left the base texture completely flat to demonstrate.

<img src="http://www.toothy.jolt.co.uk/ceiling.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

I wouldn't advise using a completely flat base texture like this one because people who run source on older cards might have the normal map shader turned off, so for most textures it's worth drawing on a base amount of height detail anyway.

Looking at the normal maps in your zip file, they seemed quite shallow, I had to play around with the nvidia photoshop plugin and find ways to make them deeper like using the blur filter after drawing the bumpmap, to make better transitions.

Also, in the test maps I made, I found the default brightness for lights (200) to be too bright, try something like half that if you specifically want to test the normal map.

I'd be happy to upload more if you'd like other examples.

RSX · June 2007

That looks good Toothy. Mine seem to be getting washed out. Maybe its because of my lighting in the level? Theres seems to be more contrast and depth when the maps lighting is quite dark?
I'd really appreciate more examples. Thx

I have tried modeling the surface to transfer to a normal map, so i can assure you theres no problem with my normal maps. I've tested these in Quake 4 as well and they seem fine. Just source which doesn't display properly for me.

I'll go try my textures again with different lighting, see if that makes a difference.

Toothy · June 2007

This was another experiment, the depth is slightly less pronounced but I think the room was brighter for it.

<img src="http://www.toothy.jolt.co.uk/teckwall05.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

RSX · June 2007

Thx again Toothy, that looks good, but like you say the depth is less pronounced when the light is a lot brighter.
I am getting better results now, thank you.

<img src="http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/16570/2002591045493845619_rs.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />

RSX · June 2007

Just a question to you mappers, is it possable to slice up textures in hammer and say use half of a texture on a brush easily? or is it worth me separating them in photoshop?

BigD · June 2007

It is pretty easy, and actually, take the textures in ns2.wad for example, most of them split nicer than the ones in ns.wad. I can't speak for source, but one pixel of a texture is approximately one unit in hammer, or so it seems. It's fairly common to take a section of a texture and fit it to brush. 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 are great divisions to work with in this version of ns, probably goes higher in source. Of course, not every texture needs to fit like that, some just look better breaking that straight lined look.

So long as the texture can work as one, you shouldn't need to split it up. Mind you, again I can't speak for source, but if only that half of the texture is being used, the whole texture is still loaded (I think.) So if you create a piece expecting it to be used on its own, more than not, maybe break it up for simplicity.

Textures?

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