Assumptions

Radix · June 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">Longstanding but unneccesary in my opinion.</div><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">Assumptions</span>

You probably don't even assume half of these things, but because I don't hear what's going on in the testing sessions *cough* <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> I figured it might be good to post them, as a few very well may be unexplored or not explored in depth. Hope someone on the dev team finds it useful.

All line items assume public play unless otherwise specified. There are intentionally no solutions listed, because while I could give my opinions, that's not the purpose of this thread. If anyone wants to voice an opinion, go ahead, but that's not what I'm after with posting this.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">1. Alien spawning occurs in waves on the floor</span>
This is the root cause of spawncamping, in my opinion. Spawning is a suspense-of-disbelief-breaking, but necessary game mechanic. Marines spawning is well-handled, but it neither makes sense nor good gameplay to have aliens suddenly appear on the floor at convenient machinegun height.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">2. Friendly fire does little damage</span>
This breaks the suspense-of-disbelief also - when I shoot an alien, it has little effect (an individual bullet from a machine gun) giving the sense of needing to "mow them down" rather than "place shots carefully" like some kind of rifle.

That's fine.

The problem is that when you shoot a teammate (even if they have no armor) it does virtually no damage. You can explain this with nanites - the explanation is not the problem - the issue is that when you shoot a teammate with a machinegun, and it barely scratches them, it makes the gun feel like a pea shooter or BB gun, rather than a high-impact rifle. It decreases the level of satisfaction firefights grant to a player, and feels more like the LMG is weak, than the alien hide is strong.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">3. Gorges are partly a combat class</span>
Gorge gameplay is a pet peeve of mine, but I won't go into details here. The issue I want to raise is that, due to gorges' relatively high health and long-range capability, combined with the low frequency of structure dropping, it feels like they're designed to "sort of" fight and "sort of" support rather than to be the dedicated support class that *I* feel they should be.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">4. Bunny hopping is integral to gameplay</span>
I remember the team addressing this awhile ago, but it deserves mentioning - there are many ways to implement a skill-based movement system, bunny hopping is just one of them.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">5. Movement abilities require additional binds</span>
Having +movement is great, but there are simpler, more intuitive ways of handling advanced movement systems - the lerk and jetpack are good examples.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">6. Public play can be expected to "shape up" and play smart</span>
A vast amount of people don't want to put forth effort to play a game. There's no reason to punish the good players by telling them "your teammates are doing something stupid, so you should fix it" - which obviously they can't do. This assumption will influence a lot of decisions one way or the other, and seems to exist in NS more than in many games. Public play will always have people who just don't <i>care</i> and never will. The players who <i>do</i> care need a way of dealing with this. Fading is a good example, but even then, especially with the changes to fade, carrying a team that's relatively uninterested in winning doesn't always work, and is extremely frustrating, which makes for a terrible experience overall.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">7. Balance and diversification of gameplay are enemies</span>
A lot of times when novel (sometimes weird) gameplay elements are suggested, an objection is raised "how will you balance it??"

Starcraft has three balanced "teams" that are heavily diversified. Given the developments on NS I don't imagine this is much of an assumption, and it doesn't seem to be much of a problem either, but again, I think it's worth stating because it's such a major factor.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">8. Teams must be numerically balanced || Classes' power must be equivalent</span>
Balancing the teams doesn't necessarily require equal numbers of equivalent units to establish good gameplay.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">9. Walls are immutable</span>
This may be prohibitively machine-intensive for current technology, but walls, boxes, floors, ceilings that are being shot with grenades will eventually break open. It might be only implementable in certain areas or with a certain limit throughout the map, but having a totally immutable environment, again, damages the suspense-of-disbelief that players experience.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">10. All sounds must be the same, all the time</span>
I think it was Wuss who first brought this up, but I could be mistaken. Basically ambush is such a big deal in NS, such a large part of gameplay, that the skulk "tap" sound is an immediate giveaway. It doesn't resemble anything like the "scifi horror" theme NS seems to be gunning for, where any sound could be a monster, or just a noisy pipe.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">11. Map objectives must be identical</span>
This is more a note about mapping than about gameplay, since simple winning/losing contingencies must be met. But "Capture resources, tech, kill the aliens, kill the hives" is such a "routine" after awhile, that it almost becomes monotonous given the tech tree. The maps are relatively similar to one another with different brushwork. This may be intentional, but it seems like a negative quality of gameplay to me.

With that said, I'm not suggesting using an objective system - it's far too abstract and removed from the game to be interesting. Having similar maps is good, but too much similarity just becomes repetitive.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">12. Melee combat</span>
When fighting in melee there's no way to knock a gun out of the hands of a marine or knock a skulk back to re-establish position. Once a skulk gets on top of you, the game becomes wack-a-mole with the marine aiming and the skulk positioning and biting.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">13. Node Capping/Removal</span>
"We capped the node sir!"
"Good!"
"What do we do now?"
"Cap the next one!"
Capping nodes is obviously important - it's in every RTS, but it does get a little old after awhile. You may like it as it is, but it seems like mentioning it is appropriate, as there are many other options which could be explored.

<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">14. 3rd Person Cameras are "bad"</span>
There are ways to make thirdperson cameras in open areas work without unbalancing the game or removing the amosphere around corners. Thirdperson cam is a great element. In my opinion, discounting it would be a mistake.

In closing, let me re-iterate how tremendous I think Natural-Selection is as a game, fantasy simulation, or whatever it ought to be called. I'm not posting these things to attack the game, but to potentially improve it. Thank you to the Dev Team for making such a great mod,

--Radix

Faskalia · June 2007

Nanites and Bacteria.

Why do our walls not break?

Cause the nano-grid nearly instantly repairs it/ dismantles the grenades before they even explode. Same explanation for no FF and such problems.

You could introduce a visual effect for nanite and bacteria effects. Some sort of blue smoke puff, that indicates that the nanites just repaired that wall etc. but it does not cut down the atmosphere. In fact because the game takes place in spacestations/ships we need weapons that dont penetrate the hull or else everything will just die from decompression.

14:
3d person camera is indeed bad because it allows looking around corners while being safe yourself. Just look at R6V. Great game, superb multiplayer but it annoys the ###### out of everyone that you can look behind a corner without exposing yourself. This makes camping extremely strong in this game.

13:
Everything gets old after a while. And good and fun games offer the players more and more options the longer the game takes. Take chess for example. You have 20 moves to start with, but after 4 moves you often enough have over 50. Having some kind of ressource/territorial control system is integral for an rts or otherwise you can easily win by turteling as much as you can.

12:
Knocking over rines etc. It would be nice if leaping skulks could knock over marines or an onos could push rines around, but knocking guns out of marines hands would turn them a little bit too helpless for my taste. Just look how many people are annyoed by stomp <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

11:
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />

10:
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />

9:
See first paragraph

8:
I kinda agree with this one, mainly because a bad alien player hurts more than a bad marine player. (You can ignore a bad marine but a bad alien will take away a huge percentage of your res)

7:
I agree, although lots of ideas are so outrageous that you would have to step away completely from current gameplay to make them balanced. And as long as UWE are working on NS2 and not a completely different game most people wont take chances with their beloved gameplay.

6:
Kick them in the nuts and then let me ban them all!

5:
More intuitive than a button press? Well double pressing a button like jump or forward would make sense for leap but also lead to alot of confusion, because precise movement is needed in NS thus any button that serves 2 purposes is bad.

4: Keep the movement and add auto or quake style jumping.

3: Focus spit does 60dmg. So yeah, good gorges can indeed kill a lone rine .

2:
See the bacteria and nanites paragraph.

1:
Eggs popping out of the hive would be sweet <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> The general idea would be to have about 8 eggs in the hive. When an alien spawns he is placed inside the egg and can burst with a keypress. This allows for more coordinated spawn camp breaking. Once an a new egg is neededthe hives spawnes it and then it is slowly transported by the infestion.

Haze · June 2007

I'd rather allow aliens to spawn in waves and also allow them to not always be spawning on the floor. Something wrong with spawning on the roof, or on the wall, if I can walk up there anyways?

Fieari · June 2007

Allow me to vehemently disagree with your #6. If it is possible for a single "good" player to carry the day in the face of numerous "bad" players, it is no longer an NS I want to play. You'll just have all the other FPS games that are out there again, which are only nominally team based. NS is the only game I've ever played where the microphone is REQUIRED for effective play in order to coordinate attacks. I don't mean beneficial, I mean that not using the mic means you will lose.

The biggest thing creating teamwork in NS, even on public servers... in fact, ESSPECIALLY on public servers, is the dynamic that in order for YOU to get cool toys and mess up the enemy, other people on your team have to support you. To get resources, you need the gorges to do a good job. To keep those resources, you need the other players to scout out enemy movements. To survive against an entrenched enemy, you need to get your team together and wave. You can't do any of these things alone. If your team doesn't care enough, or sucks too bady, you can't make up for their lack.

This is GOOD. Why? Because in order to get your toys, you thus HAVE to help your teammates improve. You thus get on the mic, and tell them, teach them, how to play. You say "Noob #1, we need resource nodes, get over to atmospheric processing now!" You say, "Has anyone checked out Computer Core lately? The enemy has been quiet on the main front..." You say, "WTF man, you have 100 resources and aren't spending them! Drop a node/hive/go onos/whatever!"

If my cool toys and awesome moments weren't dependant on his effective play, what motivation would I have for instructing the newbs? In counterstrike, if I'm owning everyone, and my kill count is orders of magnitude greater than everyone elses, do I get on the mic and whip up my team, telling them to cover specific choke points, helping them pick which weapon is most effective, or anything else? No. I'd lord it over them, because I'm doing awesome, they all suck, and that's a huge ego boost. In NS, I can't be awesome and get that boost without my team.

And that creates SOCIAL CONNECTIONS. It creates the need for teamwork. It creates an awesome experience, even on pubs.

And that's what I love about NS, over all the other games. Because quite frankly, I'm not a very good twitch player. I'm not all that great at racking up the kills. But I love working with other people, and through coordinated efforts, even my suckage can help. But only through coordination.

Yeah, it may suck occassionally on servers where everyone doesn't care, and can't do jack. But you know what? It isn't fun for those people either, because they can't do jack. This will either lead them to quit the game, or improve in their communication skills. The overall quality of the playerbase thus improves.

So, no. Being able to win despite your team is a BAD BAD BAD SUPER BAD idea. Your team is NECESSARY. And this should never change.

Buzzou · June 2007

well done Fieari, i couldnt have put it better myself.

Radix · June 2007

In other words, you'd rather punish good players for being good, than bad players for being unskilled.

Buzzou · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 21 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]1635008[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
In other words, you'd rather punish good players for being good, than bad players for being unskilled.
</div>

you just dont get it do you? the current system rewards anyone that encourages co-operative play, the way NS should be.

if it's changed everyone would just try to be rambo's

Reyn · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Jun 19 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]1634311[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Nanites and Bacteria.

Why do our walls not break?

Cause the nano-grid nearly instantly repairs it/ dismantles the grenades before they even explode. Same explanation for no FF and such problems.

</div>

if nano tech in NS is THAT advanced then why do turrets need a TF to function? Can't the turrets have their own nanites to keep them going?

and the reason why there's no FF is because server admin didn't enable it :/

Redford · June 2007

My issue with bunny hopping, as it has always, is that even though it is apparently a part of the game it is not explained or even covered. That is, there is no documentation in any mod that supports or even suggests that the engine exploit exists. Yet, stating that it is an important skill to the game under these circumstances is absurd.

You are basically saying there is a super secret way to move faster which is "highly important" to game play, but at the same time you ignore the fact that exists and do not explain how to do it in the documentation. So, is it a feature or a bug? Skilled people call it a feature, but until it becomes accessible to ALL NS players equally, and not just super leet players with scripts, I call it a bug.

However, if you give access to everyone equally, it loses it's point. Why instead of having marines jump around to go faster, why not just increase everyone's footspeed? And if all marines moving at bunnyhop speed is unbalanced, why is the fact that a team of people with the knowledge of bunnyhopping being able to emulate this situation aginst a group of players who don't for a massive advantage fair?

The only reason bunnyhopping remains in is that it caters to quake players who grew up with it.

pSyk0mAn · June 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jun 18 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]1634298[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
<span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%">13. Node Capping/Removal</span>
"We capped the node sir!"
"Good!"
"What do we do now?"
"Cap the next one!"
Capping nodes is obviously important - it's in every RTS, but it does get a little old after awhile. You may like it as it is, but it seems like mentioning it is appropriate, as there are many other options which could be explored.
</div>
Heavily agree, it gets old and more important boring.
Although I think it should stay in ns the way it works atm, I'd like to see marines and aliens needing less time to build/destroy a marine res tower.

toAzron · September 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>...not just super leet players with scripts, I call it a bug.</div>

bind mwheelup/down +jump = scripts?

Skware · September 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(toAzron @ Sep 2 2007, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1647089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>bind mwheelup/down +jump = scripts?</div>

honestly, not all bhoppers script, and none of those 14 are really I&S

Assumptions

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