<!--quoteo(post=1631500:date=Jun 5 2007, 06:45 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 5 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]1631500[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Two things I would like to add:
Counterintuitively, don't hide the obs. Or rather maximize the forward coverage of the obs area before trying to secret away in some corner. The obs is more useful to your marines if it gives them a clear view of the hive(or the halfway near marine start) then if you have it hidden in some corner to keep it "safe". Yes put it against the wall and yes hide it if you can, but forward position is more important.
Place your tf as far back as defendably possible. I see good comms making the mistake of dropping the tf far too close to what they're seiging. I've noticed that many actually drop them where they should be dropping the turrets. Take the time to learn the good seige spots. And if you're on a map(on on the side of a hive that you don't usually siege from) where you don't know the "good spot", take a couple seconds to eyeball a good spot.
One example: Seiging furnace from the lava room on Origin. You don't have to put the tf in the lava room to seige the hive. If you put it against the wall and in line with the hive in the room BEFORE the lava room(which is the best place to put the pg) you can put three seiges at the edge of the tfs' range that can hit the hive. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woo, lets create some discussion here.
Obs too much forward makes it too easy target for every lifeform. For example it may get easy for fades and onoses to hit the obs without risking themselves to the usual marinestart routine. Same goes for skulks if you don't have a clear aim at the obs biter. Obs going down is a huge big risk and most often forces you to play more passive for the next half a minute even if your marines were in defensive positions already.
Tf positioning depends much on your pg placement and most often doesn't matter all that much. However, I'd rather have room for 4th siege or so since sometimes sieges just tend to go on and on because there are 2 gorges healing the stuff. At that point the extra siege really pays off since you can still win the siege and get back to the game although you've just wasted a truckload of your res on sieges, meds and extra obs instead of upgrading.
It's a REALLY bad habit to not jump for that 4th seige when the gorges pile under the hive. If aliens can delay that hive until it's up then those 3 sieges probably aren't going to be enough. I ALWAYS drop 4 sieges unless I know I can get marines on the hive to help do damage/kill the gorges. If your marines aren't good enough to pressure, drop 4 sieges, maby even drop 5 sieges. You're going to recycle them all when you're done anyways. If you can get that hive down before the second upgrade chambers are up, or better yet, before it even drops, then you've set yourself forward ALOT more then 6 res would.
[edit] the faster you get the hive down, the faster you can go on to do something else, and the less threatening the alien team can be. The longer your siege takes the more guarenteed you are to lose it as aliens get more and more organized in finding your weak points, as well as getting lifeforms up.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
Okay the furnace once was an extreme example and I only dropped 3 sieges it is likely I could have fit a fourth. I think the point remains valid as I see a lot of bad tf placement. Yes the pg is more important but either one can cost you a seige.
As for the forward obs I would <i>like</i> to see them chewing on the obs instead of the tf, pg, or even seiges. I'm not saying put it in the middle of the hive, you need to follow the same structure building rules as always. Simply move it forward of the tf, maybe even the sieges if bilebomb isn't up yet.
I think he believed you were talking about a forward obs in marine start, not at a seige location.
On the other topic: you do have to be careful when using cool seige spots that maximize your distance because more often then not you can only get 3 cannons into them. I start with 3 seiges and then move a few marines up to determine if they can aid the seige by shooting the hive down. If they get pwnd I fall back and drop 2 more seiges.
Back to my point, learn to position your marines and you won't have to worry about anything happening in your base capable of causing serious unrecoverable damage.
As for your turret factory position, it should be hidden, preferably out of line of sight of the sieges themselves but not at the expense of how many sieges can be dropped. As for position you're sieges, against the wall obviously makes the most sense but I prefer to form a wall with them. In tough 2 hive sieges where you're vulnerable if you push too far, I use the wall as a line across the map that the marines do not cross, they just hold the sieges which is far easier than pushing up to get line of sight, and I scan till the hive dies.
<!--quoteo(post=1632244:date=Jun 7 2007, 04:50 PM:name=MrBen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MrBen @ Jun 7 2007, 04:50 PM) [snapback]1632244[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Back to my point, learn to position your marines and you won't have to worry about anything happening in your base capable of causing serious unrecoverable damage.
As for your turret factory position, it should be hidden, preferably out of line of sight of the sieges themselves but not at the expense of how many sieges can be dropped. As for position you're sieges, against the wall obviously makes the most sense but I prefer to form a wall with them. In tough 2 hive sieges where you're vulnerable if you push too far, I use the wall as a line across the map that the marines do not cross, they just hold the sieges which is far easier than pushing up to get line of sight, and I scan till the hive dies. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing about this is... you need the marines to push up past the sieges so that skulks can't camp behind or circle strafe them. Also, if marines stand on the sieges in most NS maps that makes a pretty effective fade block wall. You should be very careful about dropping seiges somewhere where they will impede the marines LoS on their targets.
Sieges don't block you're line of sight at all and it's not exactly an inpassable wall, it is however another obstacle for fades that will affect how effective they can be. Should any skulk get from the doorway to the sieges then the marines can easily deal with them before they can deal any sort of real damage. I mostly just use it as a method to prevent my marines moving forward into more vulnerable positions. "Stay behind the sieges I'll ping" has strict guidelines unlike "protect the sieges" and your marines end up all over the place and your heavy weapons get picked off one at a time as a result. Then marines run back to get the guns etc etc and it all gets out of hand. Stay behind the sieges, I'll drop as many as it takes, it's easier to kill fades and I'll ping to the hive dies, then go frag everything.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Right now I'm torn. Let's say I've dropped an arms lab, and it goes up around the one minute mark. Maybe I'ev *just* clicked on armor1 upgrade. At that point one of my marines report that the aliens are using sensory. Should I prioritize an obs or two at that point, or definitely at least push for armor1 first?
If you already dropped a lab and cancel the research you've wasted that res. Keep pushing to A1, especially because you never know when focus will show up.
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
Welders are important versus sensory - that and marines smart enough to use them. The latter is usually a greater problem if you overcome the lack of the former.
Not having armor 1 is not a postive against sensory. Keep A1 churning and just get those obs up ASAP. Prioritize obs against shotguns, weapons upgrades, lockdowns, or any other non RT expense, but you need A1 to counter sensory.
Also, motion tracking in the early game is not the counter to sensory. Motion tracking is WAY more res then you can afford if you need 2-3 field obs, and motion tracking also prevents you from scanning with one obs for 3 full minutes, which is the difference between useful cloaked skulks and useless cloaked skulks. I'm not saying don't get motion tracking against SC first, just don't rush it as if it will somehow save you the game. A commanders ability to scan regularly in the first 5 minutes will make a difference against cloaking WAY more then motion tracking at 5 mintues in will. Motion tracking only screws up defensive skulks that have been moving recently, it hardly puts a dent in an alien team holding the second hive location from a group of marines pushing in. It's far less useful then a ping.
Unless you have a coordinated team I'd advise against field obs unless you have a pg nearby, or are rushing or sieging a hive. Just put up two obs in base and keep pinging with one and tech pgs with the other.
Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.
Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1634688:date=Jun 19 2007, 06:20 PM:name=TheTerminator97)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheTerminator97 @ Jun 19 2007, 06:20 PM) [snapback]1634688[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.
Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't bother with the armoury unless it's upgrading, and I give ms a thorough eying first, so I would para and attack the real one...
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I prefer a pack of mines above another armory.. I am not, or ever, gona promote armory humping by making another one while any player with brains needs but a glance to single out the upgraded one.
Learn to medpack within half a second. Bind H to center on med request (I give you .3secs to respond to call, your reaction time + moving your finger), go for E - S (.01secs there) - AIM TO THE DIRECT CENTER OF YOUR SCREEN AND COMPENSATE FOR MARINE MOVEMENT (you can't move far in .3secs) - CLICK (.05secs there). There is NO excuse to take more than 2 seconds at any time to med a marine unless you are medspamming a more important location.
The only thing that can stop you is a marine jumping at the wrong time, that's the element of luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1634688:date=Jun 20 2007, 01:20 AM:name=TheTerminator97)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TheTerminator97 @ Jun 20 2007, 01:20 AM) [snapback]1634688[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.
Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use that strategy sometimes too, but there's a subtle model difference between a regular armory and an AA that pro players can differentiate between. They can just look around, figure out which one is the real one and kill it. This works best on the map with sewer as a hive (I forget the map name). Just pop your decoy armory in the upper right corner of your base, next to the RT tunnel, then drop the real armory right behind the wall above the fake armory. It works like a charm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
You could also drop other structures there too, but I wouldn't advise that, as the aliens would get wise too quickly. It's easier to hide a lone armory back there than it is to hide an armory, an obs, an arms lab, and a proto.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A piece of advice to all commanders:
Learn to medpack within half a second. Bind H to center on med request (I give you .3secs to respond to call, your reaction time + moving your finger), go for E - S (.01secs there) - AIM TO THE DIRECT CENTER OF YOUR SCREEN AND COMPENSATE FOR MARINE MOVEMENT (you can't move far in .3secs) - CLICK (.05secs there). There is NO excuse to take more than 2 seconds at any time to med a marine unless you are medspamming a more important location.
The only thing that can stop you is a marine jumping at the wrong time, that's the element of luck. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, as long as you're in a place I want you to be. If I'm sieging a hive/fortifying a position and you're somewhere else don't expect a medpack quickly. You may be the best player on the team but if you're not where I need you you might as well be dead anyway.
to the OP: <a href="http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=deskbar&q=then+than" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&...amp;q=then+than</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1628934:date=May 24 2007, 09:38 AM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ May 24 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]1628934[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bottom line is:
<b>Work with the team you have, not the team you want to have</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never been a fan of the corner armory, I always like it to be in the middle rather than against a wall... but maybe thats why I'm just a foor soldier <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Comments
Two things I would like to add:
Counterintuitively, don't hide the obs. Or rather maximize the forward coverage of the obs area before trying to secret away in some corner. The obs is more useful to your marines if it gives them a clear view of the hive(or the halfway near marine start) then if you have it hidden in some corner to keep it "safe". Yes put it against the wall and yes hide it if you can, but forward position is more important.
Place your tf as far back as defendably possible. I see good comms making the mistake of dropping the tf far too close to what they're seiging. I've noticed that many actually drop them where they should be dropping the turrets. Take the time to learn the good seige spots. And if you're on a map(on on the side of a hive that you don't usually siege from) where you don't know the "good spot", take a couple seconds to eyeball a good spot.
One example: Seiging furnace from the lava room on Origin. You don't have to put the tf in the lava room to seige the hive. If you put it against the wall and in line with the hive in the room BEFORE the lava room(which is the best place to put the pg) you can put three seiges at the edge of the tfs' range that can hit the hive.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woo, lets create some discussion here.
Obs too much forward makes it too easy target for every lifeform. For example it may get easy for fades and onoses to hit the obs without risking themselves to the usual marinestart routine. Same goes for skulks if you don't have a clear aim at the obs biter. Obs going down is a huge big risk and most often forces you to play more passive for the next half a minute even if your marines were in defensive positions already.
Tf positioning depends much on your pg placement and most often doesn't matter all that much. However, I'd rather have room for 4th siege or so since sometimes sieges just tend to go on and on because there are 2 gorges healing the stuff. At that point the extra siege really pays off since you can still win the siege and get back to the game although you've just wasted a truckload of your res on sieges, meds and extra obs instead of upgrading.
[edit] the faster you get the hive down, the faster you can go on to do something else, and the less threatening the alien team can be. The longer your siege takes the more guarenteed you are to lose it as aliens get more and more organized in finding your weak points, as well as getting lifeforms up.
As for the forward obs I would <i>like</i> to see them chewing on the obs instead of the tf, pg, or even seiges. I'm not saying put it in the middle of the hive, you need to follow the same structure building rules as always. Simply move it forward of the tf, maybe even the sieges if bilebomb isn't up yet.
On the other topic: you do have to be careful when using cool seige spots that maximize your distance because more often then not you can only get 3 cannons into them. I start with 3 seiges and then move a few marines up to determine if they can aid the seige by shooting the hive down. If they get pwnd I fall back and drop 2 more seiges.
As for your turret factory position, it should be hidden, preferably out of line of sight of the sieges themselves but not at the expense of how many sieges can be dropped. As for position you're sieges, against the wall obviously makes the most sense but I prefer to form a wall with them. In tough 2 hive sieges where you're vulnerable if you push too far, I use the wall as a line across the map that the marines do not cross, they just hold the sieges which is far easier than pushing up to get line of sight, and I scan till the hive dies.
Back to my point, learn to position your marines and you won't have to worry about anything happening in your base capable of causing serious unrecoverable damage.
As for your turret factory position, it should be hidden, preferably out of line of sight of the sieges themselves but not at the expense of how many sieges can be dropped. As for position you're sieges, against the wall obviously makes the most sense but I prefer to form a wall with them. In tough 2 hive sieges where you're vulnerable if you push too far, I use the wall as a line across the map that the marines do not cross, they just hold the sieges which is far easier than pushing up to get line of sight, and I scan till the hive dies.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing about this is... you need the marines to push up past the sieges so that skulks can't camp behind or circle strafe them. Also, if marines stand on the sieges in most NS maps that makes a pretty effective fade block wall. You should be very careful about dropping seiges somewhere where they will impede the marines LoS on their targets.
Also, motion tracking in the early game is not the counter to sensory. Motion tracking is WAY more res then you can afford if you need 2-3 field obs, and motion tracking also prevents you from scanning with one obs for 3 full minutes, which is the difference between useful cloaked skulks and useless cloaked skulks. I'm not saying don't get motion tracking against SC first, just don't rush it as if it will somehow save you the game. A commanders ability to scan regularly in the first 5 minutes will make a difference against cloaking WAY more then motion tracking at 5 mintues in will. Motion tracking only screws up defensive skulks that have been moving recently, it hardly puts a dent in an alien team holding the second hive location from a group of marines pushing in. It's far less useful then a ping.
Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.
Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.
Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't bother with the armoury unless it's upgrading, and I give ms a thorough eying first, so I would para and attack the real one...
Learn to medpack within half a second. Bind H to center on med request (I give you .3secs to respond to call, your reaction time + moving your finger), go for E - S (.01secs there) - AIM TO THE DIRECT CENTER OF YOUR SCREEN AND COMPENSATE FOR MARINE MOVEMENT (you can't move far in .3secs) - CLICK (.05secs there). There is NO excuse to take more than 2 seconds at any time to med a marine unless you are medspamming a more important location.
The only thing that can stop you is a marine jumping at the wrong time, that's the element of luck.
Another thing that is absolutely critical, is a decoy armory, yes drop your armory in that conventional spot. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE ONE YOU UPGRADE. Put one next to the com chair and upgrade that, or in a similar out of the way place.
Decoy armories in pubs can save you the game. When that skulk rush comes in and takes down your armory, whoops guys u got the rong one lol.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I use that strategy sometimes too, but there's a subtle model difference between a regular armory and an AA that pro players can differentiate between. They can just look around, figure out which one is the real one and kill it. This works best on the map with sewer as a hive (I forget the map name). Just pop your decoy armory in the upper right corner of your base, next to the RT tunnel, then drop the real armory right behind the wall above the fake armory. It works like a charm <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
You could also drop other structures there too, but I wouldn't advise that, as the aliens would get wise too quickly. It's easier to hide a lone armory back there than it is to hide an armory, an obs, an arms lab, and a proto.
Learn to medpack within half a second. Bind H to center on med request (I give you .3secs to respond to call, your reaction time + moving your finger), go for E - S (.01secs there) - AIM TO THE DIRECT CENTER OF YOUR SCREEN AND COMPENSATE FOR MARINE MOVEMENT (you can't move far in .3secs) - CLICK (.05secs there). There is NO excuse to take more than 2 seconds at any time to med a marine unless you are medspamming a more important location.
The only thing that can stop you is a marine jumping at the wrong time, that's the element of luck. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, as long as you're in a place I want you to be. If I'm sieging a hive/fortifying a position and you're somewhere else don't expect a medpack quickly. You may be the best player on the team but if you're not where I need you you might as well be dead anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1628934:date=May 24 2007, 09:38 AM:name=KainTSA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KainTSA @ May 24 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]1628934[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The bottom line is:
<b>Work with the team you have, not the team you want to have</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol Rumsfeld