Life exists out in space! Or How NS2 came alive
CanadianWolverine
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
<div class="IPBDescription">No longer would we wonder where all the people went...</div>What I am suggesting is, please allow there to be stupid civilians, their pets, and bizarre but harmless Kharaa creatures running around the map. Have them cower in corners, run screaming down the halls, fly off their perch as something disturbs them, or feeding on the dead. Of course, also let these poor civilians, deer, and wild dog like creatures get killed, by either side.
There could be penalties or bonuses, but really, the idea is meant to improve the atmosphere of the game, and maybe some funny silly moments.
This was an idea that is inspired by watching all the fun mayhem that occured in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. when the AI life would do some rather interesting things. I believe there are other games that have featured "The Game of Life" as well, where the background is filled with poor suckers.
Sorry if this has been brought up before but I haven't noticed it in all the other threads. The closest things I've noticed to it were suggestions of trying to rescue "hostages" of the Kharaa, basicly some scientist or TSA big wig who is hiding in a locked down closet or whatever.
There could be penalties or bonuses, but really, the idea is meant to improve the atmosphere of the game, and maybe some funny silly moments.
This was an idea that is inspired by watching all the fun mayhem that occured in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. when the AI life would do some rather interesting things. I believe there are other games that have featured "The Game of Life" as well, where the background is filled with poor suckers.
Sorry if this has been brought up before but I haven't noticed it in all the other threads. The closest things I've noticed to it were suggestions of trying to rescue "hostages" of the Kharaa, basicly some scientist or TSA big wig who is hiding in a locked down closet or whatever.
Comments
Even small insects, or new style of kharaa bees/flies or small rats .
Kinda cool, really <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
If there were any concerns about them being annoying, spend a bullet you cruel ###### and end their agony. More than likely some skulks will also gain some enjoyment by seeing who can get the most civilian snacks.
In addition, they don't always have to be stupid civilians who should have never took that cheap ticket to space, maybe its scientists working on a Kharaa specimen and the infestation got loose, or maybe there are some hold out local militia, no where near as kick ass as the marines, but they still like to panic and shoot wildly like noobs, maybe its technicians working on the colony or whatever.
The fact of the matter is, civilians have the poor luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up in the war. And while in NS1 the first contact may have allowed the locals enough time to evac, when the war comes, it seems the Kharaa are far more "Dynamic" in NS2. The Kharaa have evolved and hit with such speed that the shmucks don't have time enough to reach the escape pods. I think the TSA will be recieving a few more distress calls that involve "We have something really strange here, its growing over everything at an incredible speed! Its getting hard to breath in here ... the scrubbers are malfunctioning, places where the infestation goes are shutting down, we are loosing key systems here! Send help fast, I think we just lost power to the life boats! Oh god! What's that? Aiiieeee!!!"
And are you really worried about demands on resources of the computer, when it comes to Source, I'm pretty sure you can dial things back a bit, I know I do. IMHO, bringing up the "resource hog" thing is such a cop out, let Unknown Worlds decide where the want the minimum requirements.
In anything, I am sure this would improve the atmosphere.
I dont think of NS as a bunch of people screaming and random civilians running around ruining the "alone" feeling you get sometimes. If you have ever played the old bast, you would know what I'm talking about.
i think like little flying things would be the best, that just latch onto walls.
and then fly to another wall.
itd make you jump a bit seeing things moving
having them on the ground could get in the way and look stupid if they get stuck.
Search and rescue, I don't think so, it won't be like Natural Selection :\ " HEY WE NEED THE HOSTAGES ! " omg, CS already did that.
Not big fat deers, pigs and whatever. Small mosquitos and flies, moving randomly around the map, and when there's a corpse on the ground, they all fly around it ( i mean, all in the area ).
And more the corpses are in the map, the more insects you'll see.
And as far as atmosphere goes, sure, that spooky feeling that reminds me of playing Doom so many years ago and jumping out of my seat in fright, its all good ... unless you are actually playing the game. These days, working together as a team, a lot of that tension that originally existed when we first discovered the game and, as most noobs do, we went rambo looking for something to shoot. As soon as you get past that, how spooky would it be to hear the panicked moans and cries for mommy from civilians fleeing from what you are going into ... can you say suicide mission? Don't forget, TSA loves you, sucker.
Half Life 2 featured civilians who were so much fodder as well and what rating did that get?
If NS2 seriously wants to be taken as "war", I am certain it needs refugees and creepy crawlies from the Kharaa jungle that will have us pondering our mortality and morality, and jumping at movement that is harmless ... unless that skulk is just using it as cover.
Without the life inhabiting the map, it really is just so many empty pointless hallways. TSA wants me to give my life for this place, but what the hell do they need it for anyways? Its not like anyone uses this crap anyways. Heck, there isn't even a corpse to avenge. As the Kharaa, marines rarely run in fear anymore, the bad ass factor of being the vicious alien creature seems to count for little, it would be nice to get rid of the local population for a little redemption as the Kharaa, I would like to select a few civilians for "natural selection".
If NS1 were the movie "Alien", what are the chances NS2 will have the same feel of "Aliens"? I want to rescue the little girl!
And as far as atmosphere goes, sure, that spooky feeling that reminds me of playing Doom so many years ago and jumping out of my seat in fright, its all good ... unless you are actually playing the game. These days, working together as a team, a lot of that tension that originally existed when we first discovered the game and, as most noobs do, we went rambo looking for something to shoot. As soon as you get past that, how spooky would it be to hear the panicked moans and cries for mommy from civilians fleeing from what you are going into ... can you say suicide mission? Don't forget, TSA loves you, sucker.
Half Life 2 featured civilians who were so much fodder as well and what rating did that get?
If NS2 seriously wants to be taken as "war", I am certain it needs refugees and creepy crawlies from the Kharaa jungle that will have us pondering our mortality and morality, and jumping at movement that is harmless ... unless that skulk is just using it as cover.
Without the life inhabiting the map, it really is just so many empty pointless hallways. TSA wants me to give my life for this place, but what the hell do they need it for anyways? Its not like anyone uses this crap anyways. Heck, there isn't even a corpse to avenge. As the Kharaa, marines rarely run in fear anymore, the bad ass factor of being the vicious alien creature seems to count for little, it would be nice to get rid of the local population for a little redemption as the Kharaa, I would like to select a few civilians for "natural selection".
If NS1 were the movie "Alien", what are the chances NS2 will have the same feel of "Aliens"? I want to rescue the little girl!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Half-Life 2 isnt a Team RTS FPS.
I think creepy crawlies could be good.
Civilians not.
I do not understand how this effects the rating given by ESRB or other regularitory groups. In fact, I think it makes little difference to them, as I often see this on game boxes: "Game Experience May Change During Game Play". That is pretty much the standard ESRB comment for anything that is played in a Multiplayer enviroment, where they expect other players curse & swear and bring up topics that may not be appropriate for children, on top of anything that may be related to Mods.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think creepy crawlies could be good.
Civilians not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the thing, those creepy crawlies are the Kharaa's civilian.
War involves the civilians too, lets really take this thing on. This is something that has bugged me ever since first finding this Half Life mod, where did all the people go? I think Source can handle it, it certainly does in various Half-Life 2 mods, why not a full fledged commercial game?
Without a civilian hiding in the corner, I don't really see how maps come alive, to be honest. Its a joke really, might as well go play a seige map where all the rooms are rectangles and grey. Why bother making a map look lived in if no one lives there?
Here's the thing, those creepy crawlies are the Kharaa's civilian.
War involves the civilians too, lets really take this thing on. This is something that has bugged me ever since first finding this Half Life mod, where did all the people go? I think Source can handle it, it certainly does in various Half-Life 2 mods, why not a full fledged commercial game?
Without a civilian hiding in the corner, I don't really see how maps come alive, to be honest. Its a joke really, might as well go play a seige map where all the rooms are rectangles and grey. Why bother making a map look lived in if no one lives there?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, when you said rating, i thought you meant as in... this game got 96/100
as in you were saying civilians made it good.
yep.
Counter Strike. And don't say it isn't serious, it has plenty of tournaments that have it in their line up of games featured to be serious.
On top of that, perhaps the reason it hasn't been done yet means it would help make NS2 very special, one of those things that sets it apart from the pack of multiplayer FPS, on top of the RTS elements.
If you consider RTS multiplayer, I could have sworn I have seen "civilians" and other non-aggressive creatures in those.
I am sure that if you saw it done well, just once, you would enjoy the blast you get from either being the Kharaa terrorizing the local populace or being the marines charging in to save them and their map.
Also, in your example of the fade, if done well, I would think that the civilian wouldn't be blocking anything but cowering in the corner in the fetal position crying "Fade ... fade ... fade" to themself over and over again.
And yeah.. like a few people have said, refugees running around in a panic would ruin the mood.. not to mention how old it would get after the billionth time you play it. NS maps silently tell a story about the final moments before the infestation. Keyword <i>silently</i>.
But that would be part of the point, would this hard assed marine who should be focused on his tasks get distracted? Does that movement at the corner of your eye creep you out? Is that a Kharaa skulk or just a harmless lil'creature? What kind of reaction do the marines have, do they feel any sympathy and make a mistake like Vin Diesel's character in Saving Private Ryan or save the girl from insurmountable odds like Ripley in Aliens? Or do they just "decontaminate" the tough out of luck civilian?
Maybe in even a multiplayer game should give us something deeper. If I wanted shallow, I have plenty of other multiplayer games to choose from.
<!--quoteo(post=1646672:date=Aug 31 2007, 07:06 AM:name=hookeyed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hookeyed @ Aug 31 2007, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1646672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They wouldn't be Kharaa civilians, they'd be bugs. Neutral space bugs.
And yeah.. like a few people have said, refugees running around in a panic would ruin the mood.. not to mention how old it would get after the billionth time you play it. NS maps silently tell a story about the final moments before the infestation. Keyword <i>silently</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends on where the bugs came from, Kharaa or TSA. Its not like they just hitched a ride from the outer reaches of space, were talking about an infestation. Are we so sure that Kharaa wouldn't have some lower life forms that are for the most part harmless? Most Ecology has these lower life forms, usually performing tasks such as pollenization or decomposition. What would be the Kharaa equivalent of maggots, flies, mice, deer, krill, plankton, or small fish? If you were Kharaa and someone was shooting up your lil'lower life forms, how would that make you feel?
Please, just take one TSA civilian, and cower them in a corner or supply closet, wimpering about the horrors they have seen. Done right, guaranteed it is going to send a chill down your spine.
Nothing says they have to run around in a panic. Though, IMHO, that would be fun to see sometimes too. Especially if they are easily cut down, I picture a scene where the marines hear a scream and a civilian comes tearing around a corner in the distance, only to be silenced by a skulk who quickly disappears. Still sure you want your marine on this map?
Scripted events involving npc's will just get annoying or not have the impact in the end that you're trying to induce. Also it just doesn't fit with the times that marines are actually involved in a fight with the kharaa, why are there civilians even left around? Why didn't they take their opportunity to evacuate, or why haven't they already been killed?
This game is anything but shallow as it stands, especially with some of the things being discussed around DI, etc, that can cause the atmosphere of the game to change, lets not add in stupid gimmicks that will wear thin after the first half a dozen appearances and ultimately infuriate as your marines or skulks waste time watching it when you're used to ignoring it and trying to get on with <b>playing the game</b> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
I wasn't saying Natural Selection, its the opposite in fact, its part of what sets it apart from the pack ... or used to. Many mods these days are coming out with experiences that are roughly on par with NS1 and when Savage came out, I felt like I wondered if it was in someway inspired by NS1's sucesses in blending FPS and RTS.
Seeing as it would frustrate you, I would predict you would play a marine who shoots the civilian so you don't have to listen to the wimpering. Would that be so bad? What would it say about your marine character? Still think it is "pointless"?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scripted events involving npc's will just get annoying or not have the impact in the end that you're trying to induce. Also it just doesn't fit with the times that marines are actually involved in a fight with the kharaa, why are there civilians even left around? Why didn't they take their opportunity to evacuate, or why haven't they already been killed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scripted? Who said anything about scripted or running on rails? I was more really thinking that it was programmed behaviours, like if you start shooting they duck, if a Kharaa is spotted they try to hide out of sight or bolt in a panic. They are already doing a bad ass job of programing on this game, would it be so hard to have NPCs that react to situations, even have mappers decide what kind of civilians they have on the map and what their reactions in any given situation are?
I posted this before, but maybe you missed it, it was a response to a similar question on the idea:
The fact of the matter is, civilians have the poor luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up in the war. And while in NS1 the first contact may have allowed the locals enough time to evac, when the war comes, it seems the Kharaa are far more "Dynamic" in NS2. The Kharaa have evolved and hit with such speed that the shmucks don't have time enough to reach the escape pods. I think the TSA will be recieving a few more distress calls that involve "We have something really strange here, its growing over everything at an incredible speed! Its getting hard to breath in here ... the scrubbers are malfunctioning, places where the infestation goes are shutting down, we are loosing key systems here! Send help fast, I think we just lost power to the life boats! Oh god! What's that? Aiiieeee!!!"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game is anything but shallow as it stands, especially with some of the things being discussed around DI, etc, that can cause the atmosphere of the game to change, lets not add in stupid gimmicks that will wear thin after the first half a dozen appearances and ultimately infuriate as your marines or skulks waste time watching it when you're used to ignoring it and trying to get on with <b>playing the game</b> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, I wasn't saying the game is shallow, just that if I want that kind of experience I go else where for those gaming delights. When I want deep, I go for something akin to NS1, I am just trying to add to the depth, get us to question our character's mortality and morality.
I find it insulting that you sum up all my detail on this idea into "gimmick", when if you consider all I have posted already, I in no way would want to see a gimmick, but a thought prevoking experience, one which we tell each about later: as quick examples, Marine - "Did you see when that skulk tried to bring that civilian down? I shot him up good!" or Kharaa - "*growl* They are burning our home again! *growl* My pet cockroach, nooo!!!"
I see possibilities, you see limitations. This game hasn't been released yet, so give my idea chance, will ya?
Yes, my "marine" isn't a character. Let me ask, what is it about the scenario that means that the first marines that phase into the map to start taking out the infestation would be interested in the civilian (without helping them) while any more aren't? I play MANY marines, I die several times (if I'm lucky) as a marine and then I play a reinforcement, I doubt many people (do tell me if I'm wrong) really think in the same way they do as a single player where they're given time and choices on how to act rather than being ordered around in a fast paced game largely out of their control compared to single player versions.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scripted? Who said anything about scripted or running on rails? I was more really thinking that it was programmed behaviours, like if you start shooting they duck, if a Kharaa is spotted they try to hide out of sight or bolt in a panic. They are already doing a bad ass job of programing on this game, would it be so hard to have NPCs that react to situations, even have mappers decide what kind of civilians they have on the map and what their reactions in any given situation are?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't suggesting you said scripted necessarily, just that certainly any scripted version of what you're saying wouldn't work (as you seem to agree <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it insulting that you sum up all my detail on this idea into "gimmick", when if you consider all I have posted already, I in no way would want to see a gimmick, but a thought prevoking experience, one which we tell each about later: as quick examples, Marine - "Did you see when that skulk tried to bring that civilian down? I shot him up good!" or Kharaa - "*growl* They are burning our home again! *growl* My pet cockroach, nooo!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't intend to insult, but I just feel that ultimately that is what they will become. They really won't offer anything to gameplay, and even you seem to accept the only addition they would make is to any kind of personal development you're attributing to your "character", so they will eventually just be things that could potentially get in the way of the actual act of playing the game at worst, or at best just ignored. :/
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see possibilities, you see limitations. This game hasn't been released yet, so give my idea chance, will ya?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I certainly don't see any limitations with this idea, I'm not suggesting it'll adversely affect the game in the long run, though there would be a spate of "ignore the friggin' civilian and shoot the RT" type spats because of it I feel, I just don't personally see what value it could ever possibly add to the game, which is where we'll have to agree to disagree <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Hmm, interesting, I always thought of my marine or kharaa as a character, for the simple reason I get ordered around by others by the name of my character "CW, quit humping the armory" or "Wolvie, drop some chambers, will ya?"
But you do bring an interesting point, where in a game where you are always re-spawning as some new grunt for the grinder, what kind of character do you retain, if any at all? I would think it would boil down to play style, only if the civilians weren't there for more than atmosphere and to make you think about your actions: see the VIP mode thread for what I am refering to.
Basicly, the only difference I see between Multiplayer and Single Player is one has the ability to save games, essentially letting you control time and even space if there are random drops, its like you are Hiro from Heroes and get to do as many do overs as you like, just visit the future and jump back to "fix" your character's timeline. When it comes to multiplayer, the closest thing you get to a do over is the next time you play the map, and even then, unless its some stupid broken record scripted sequence, there is no guarantees you will get a second chance to do it different this time around, because other players actions have to be considered as well. You don't get "Save Game" so you have to live with the consequences of your character's actions, for good or ill.
If you are pressed for time, under stress from orders, heck, the orders may be to "shoot on sight", those poor civilians will simply serve as something to add to horror of it all. "OMG, I keep seeing the moment we popped that family on the Echelon map ..." Or it could highlight the deadening of sensitivity "You see this all the time, you just hope it isn't your home and your family the Kharaa infest ..."
There are themes and depths that NS1 hasn't gone to, heck, we didn't even find a half eaten candy bar or a recording of the inhabitants last letter to family or anything. NS1 needed more human soul, I hope NS2 finds it. Though, I do remember some moments where I would stare out the observation windows at stars and planets, those gave a hint of what could be possible. Unknown Worlds, indeed.
Oh, and as to the rest of your post, very cool post, very well thought out and made me think. Thanks.
I think you have the idea, those are the little guys that keep our planet running, without them we would have no ecosystem that could sustain us. If the Kharaa landed on earth, one of their first targets would be to decimate our forests and jungles, have no doubt. They would want to cut off our oxygen and nitrogen, and use all that wonderful organic material for their own purposes, some good old fashioned home grown Dynamic Infestation.
I have always thought of the Kharaa as rulers of where ever planet they originate from and if they were trying to colonize somewhere, they would bring their creepy crawlies, just as we would. Only, I don't want to bump into whatever a Kharaa considers harmless, I'm sure its bound to be one ugly MF. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Just go with neutral space bugs. Who knows how they got there or where they came from, they're bugs. >_>