Global Rank

BlakkCooper · November 2007

Hi,

i had an idea: there is a global ranking system integraded in the hl2 mod <a href="http://www.dystopia-game.com/" target="_blank">Dystopia</a>. i don't know how it works but every player will be automatically traced when he plays dystopia.

<a href="http://www.dystopia-stats.com/player/37300" target="_blank">my stats for example</a>

first this is very motivating... every time u have played u can see yourself crawling up some places! and second i think this could solve the problem with the commander experience. it's not a good idea to say "only the best can be commander". this would mean that unskilled players never be commander. at this point i have to think of another hl2 mod: <a href="http://www.zombiemaster.org/" target="_blank">Zombie Master</a>. the game is zombies (zombie master) vs humans. if you join a server u can choose between just playing as survivor or willing to play as zombie master. if you choose to play as zombie master there is a ranking. the more you killing zombies the more you have a chance to be the next zombie master.

let's take this two things together: global ranking + vote to play as commander or not
before the round starts every marine have to vote who will be the next commander. to help him there are the global rankings to value his skills.

this is not very complicated. the ranking system works automatically. when you joining a server u just have to make a click and then another to vote for a commander.

this is maybe not the best option but maybe inspiring.
i definitely think the ranking system will be motivating!

obsid · November 2007

The biggeste problems with something like this are stat farming. A guy goes and sets up a server with a bunch of bots and just rakes in the rating, or sets up a server that just contatly tells the central database that the player is getting more ranking. It ends up being impossible to acuratly keep a system like that in place. Now a system where it tracks the first 10-20 wins as comm, and displays how many you have so far would be a fairly acurate way of deminstrating who does and who doesnt know how to comm, without making it worth it to farm the experance (most good comms with have 20 wins under there belt fairly quickly anyway so it would be alot easier just to do that then try and cheat it).

corpsman · November 2007

I remember making a post about this also, but as was pointed out by many others, many gamers end up caring about their stats more then then playing the game for fun, and for the team. I already had this problem when playing on both sides. The fades and lerks sometimes play for themselves, without caring for the deaths of the gorges or for huarding chambers. Also the marines are plauged by people who think of themselves as being John Rambo, and others who dont bother to build and protect. Games usually go south for the marines when people don't wait for a teammate to spawn, and they just go wandering out on their own.

I really do like the idea of stats, if done right it would be a great addition o any game, but I cannot pretend the problems don't exist and that they would just go away if a stats system was put into place. If anything, it would make things worse. So the question becomes, how could/would a stats system benifit the teams? My only idea is that the stats system put into lace would not give "rewards" for kille, but for teamwork: building, welding, healing, umbra, those sort of things. Maybe the developers can create new ideas around this?

NEX9 · November 2007

Yes it could be fun to have a global ranking or stats system, BUT its huge down side is stat ######s, it also gives a achiveable end to the game.
When you have tracking of achivements you feel you find something you like, I like welding or grenades ok, after three months I am better than everone else at welding and throwing grenades well my work here is done I now need a new game.

The arcadeyness of NS doesnt really require stats, and stats have shortened the life span of servral games.
There are very few games were stats have kept them alive and supriseingly some of the very first games to incorparate globe stats are the games that still remain now and those that have followed the global stat system have failed. Also games with a stat system were if you stop playing you lose all yours stats or they deteriorate after X period of times also seam to have had a longer life span than games that retain your account and stats forever.

Note this isnt the only thing that pretains to a games life span, but it can and has been known to cripple a games replay value.
This is ok and fine for companys that are produceing many a top seller with 10 star rateings, always produceing hits and getting massive advertisments out there for their next best seller. To simply put it a fan base accumulates for said company, in which case just as your completeing your achived stats and the replay value is decreaseing. A new game in a shiney new packageing from your favorite game developer is sitting right there. In turn, lineing there pockets even more and setting up the next big tittle.

But as the End game, Final bosses and Endings move from the single player platform into the multiplayer arena's achiveable goals, stats, and rateing are there equivlant replacement, and from what most of us have seen and realised deep down inside its killed and shortened a lot of games and there play time.

Sure you killed the best with this weapon most efficently, but there is always going to be a bigger fish in the sea, just the stats dont paint that picture for you right now at this momment as your at the top of the ladder. No stats always keeps you guessing honeing your skill and learning new things everyones a potential challenger and your head only inflates passed that round of play.

BlakkCooper · November 2007

@obsid
so, stat farming.... year.... someone could do this. but this is minor. what's the problem with it? that someone seems better than he really is? so what? this will be only a problem if there are so many of them that they compromise the whole stats!

@corpsman
there are always people who are interested in their stats! they look at the scoreboard and think: "year, i got 30 kills and just 10 dead - I ROCK". the point with the global ranking is just they have to compare their skills with others. some people will just play for stats. this is what progamers always do!

and the thing with the "lone wolfs" who are playing on their own. i think this is a problem no one can solve and no one have to! every single player is someone out there and so every player has his own style. take me for example: i am someone who always try to sneak around every defense and try to turn the tide! just me, my jetpack and my grenade launcher standing up there in a dark corner waiting for the comm to drop a teleporter. sometimes it works and my team wins about that. sometimes i just die. it's not all about teamplay.

- - - - - - - - - -

if the stats are not that detailed rather report how long a player plays as marine, as comm, as lerk, as whatever there is not this "i have to be the best" think within. but u can still estimate how good someone is (as commander).

the concept with the vote is in my opinion a good idea: it's just democratic!

btw: the global ranking has in dystopia another good effect: the game has a "balance teams" vote integrated. based on the global ranking the server can balance the teams by skill, not just by the numbers of players!

NEX9 · November 2007

Honoustly I dont want every man and his dog stepping on and dragging everyone else down cos of stats.
Stats arnt even A race to the top of the hill, they are a treat everyone else like dirt, so no one gets to the top of the hill.

I hope by balanced the teams out puts all the wh***s on one side, and all the social non stat careing friendly fun loveing players on the other side, cos they certainly dont want play with me and everyone else whos here just to have fun, unless they can find away to exsploit us to better there stats, or just find a way to not make the game fun for us as its obiously a chore or not fun for them.

BlakkCooper · November 2007

and what about the idea with the time stats? i don't think that someone is interested in be the player who spend the most time on NS. this would only say that he has no reallife ;D

N_3 · November 2007

stats for public server play is useless. it doesn't help anybody or prove anything. it's like professional sports players have stats recorded for backyard games.

MasterPTG · November 2007

I think stats are fun, everyone. But I think achievements are empty, voidless pits that are to be avoided. I love to see how many shots I hit and missed. I love to see what my kill:death ratio is. I even like to see how many times I placed first on my team for combined points.

I think if you had -really- tough achievements where if you did it, it really meant something...then, that'd be pretty cool. Like...Killing 10 fades within one game of -default- NS. Or, Killing 100 marines in one game of -default- NS. etc, etc. Those sort of goals would be kinda cool, but easy goals such as "kill 5 skulks within 5 minutes" would be incredibly easy...lame...pathetic...meaningless...and cheap.

Everyone seems to be afraid of stats b/c of stat-whoring in other games. I don't really see how that's possible in NS, unless -good- people purposely -annihilated- total noobs to get a higher ranking. But even then, I don't see the difference between this and now. In G4B2S, the server only normally has fewer than four people whose name I even recognize. And that almost always means they're bad. That also means, there are 4 or fewer -good- peeps slaughtering the -bad- peeps. So I don't get. If you get spawn camped in NS, it's your own fault and you deserve it (unless you're on a bad team...in which case...that sucks).

I think everyone would be kinda curious to compare their stats to the top ranked individuals. You could see how accurate the "pro's" are, and how accurate you are. And how many lifeforms you kill, compared to the "pro's". I think it'd be cool.

Simplicity would probably be best though when implementing the system. Just keep track of scoring per minute, K:D, and -maybe- just a few other stats like total time played and uber achievements reached (which may be a bad idea since peeps might just create private servers and 'cheat' their way into the achievements :x).

invader Zim · November 2007

Dystopia is a good looking mod but its very repetative, and i suspect this may in part be to the lack of variation in each palyers playing styles as they stream line them towards the browny point stats. I think there could be a stats system in ns2 if it was wieghted towards team play stuff. so rather than a K:D ratio kind of stats system you had a composite stat that u earnt over each game. but actions like buidling, healing, parasiting and other stuff that helps the team and is measurealbe. some points could be gained from kills but not as many and kills with knifes and other lamer weapons would be wieghted abit more. A system like this propably wouldnt appeal to eveyone, and probaly not most stat ######s. but it could get players to do more team work stuff.

What ever stat system is implimented, deaths should play a very low role in it because this would encourage cowardice, and some times in ns you have to take one for the team. As far as stats for kills go, players dont really need the extra motivation to get kills, ive net met a fps player who didnt want to kill stuff, i think stats should be used to motivate players to do the stuff they find it hard to motivate them selves to do.

i spose you could start ur own bot server and ###### ur stats on this system but only the most dedicated loosers would manage it with out getting bored.

NEX9 · November 2007

Who's seen the AMX award mod

The stats go no were but at the end of each map a bunch of awards are listed, its great to see that you got the scrambled egg award cos you killed some egging kharaa, the scout award for practicing the most. it doesn't always show all the awards archived only the top few, they are fun to read and have a chat about at the end of a map but they arnt important enough to have people walk all over each other to achieve them, it can tho create some health completion and spark team work.

But they arnt global they arnt awards and achievements, and it doesn't place you on a perminate ladder next to other people to gauge your worth. Sure knowing your K:D rating and your accuracy is great it helps you know when what YOUR doing has improved YOUR play. But measuring your self against others really is only reserved for those who feel the need to compensate which usually are the same people that act like a hoon on the road.

but a bit of fun is a bit of fun, but when your play interferes with others fun, then its not fun.

yoda · November 2007

Vote No to stats in NS2.

Kouji_San · November 2007

Stats like K/D ratio or first plumber on the fraglist do no really promote teamplay, also these could be done with the use of stat sites, can't they?

A vote system for commander might be "nice", but in effect it also deprives newbies from ever being able to go commander.

I mean "how much you've killed or K/D ratio" don't show you much of a player his skill as commander. Actually it doesn't show "skill" at all, since killing is all about teamplay in this game and only rewarding the kill is not teamplay enhancing. I'd like to see a score system with an actual realtime hits and damage you've done instead of only rewarding the kills (same for repairs/healing/building etc...)

MasterPTG · November 2007

I don't know where you come off saying that "being #1 on the 'plumber' list" doesn't promote teamplay, but I seem to recall that people have to kill other people to win the game.

People who are #1 on that list on marines are normally peeps who can aim exceptionally well, and I don't see a problem whatsoever with rewarding them. It's fun to see the good peeps pwn people. Plus you can pick up tips from them, and perhaps you should listen to them (b/c...if they can aim well in a game, they've prolly playing it more than someone who can't aim).

As for aliens, MANY perma-gorges have been #1 on the 'plumber list' and have gotten very few kills. In NS, the score system takes into account which buildings you destroy, and which ones you build (at least for aliens). So I honestly don't see your point.

Like in one game this week, I had like over 80 kills where my team TOTAL (7 or 8 other peeps) combined only had like 65 [pornchai was the awesome perma-gorge who had 140+ pts of score for building][I had 240pts or something]. On top of that, I had destroyed like 15 res nodes, and like 10 or 15 other buildings [including their AA in the middle of the game] during the twenty or twenty-five minute game. I'd love to get some recognition for that pwnage. I don't see how a person who kills THAT many people isn't doing their team a service. Kills = awesomesauce for teamwork either through an uber ninja distraction or through working w/ a squad of rines to get an objective done.

NS is still a first-person-shooter, where the root of the game is shooting. The direct result of shooting is kills and deaths, and the K:D ratio is one of the fairest ways of measuring skill for the most part. Certainly is isn't the only measuring stick, but it certainly can't be discounted. Another one would be W:L for your team w/ you on it. The W:L system has been implemented on the TG server for quite some time, and I think it works 'fairly' well at balancing teams. Sometimes though....just wow. But whatever.

Certainly you could have a separate ranking for welding, nade kills, buildings, etc, but most people only do these activities once in a while (mostly b/c they don't always have welders, or nades or even buildings to build. Certainly a statistic for "MVP" (person w/ most points @ the end of the game) would be pretty cool. And just because a person ######s res and then kills a bundle of people, doesn't mean they're not a team player. Someone has to ###### the res. Someone has to gestate in a higher lifeform//someone has to get the HMG/HA/JP. Many people don't even know how to properly use their lifeforms (or weapons or uber armor suit), and certainly many people die within mere minutes of egging into an expensive lifeform b/c they get stuck (or they're just not effective/efficient w/ said lifeform).

So in conclusion, kills normally translates into good teamwork. Certainly by the end of a NS game, the top player is normally always the one who contributed the most towards the win. There are exceptions, but like any rule, that's the norm.

Kouji_San · November 2007

Ok, I didn't mean it like that. What I ment to say is the topscore people "kills or frags" How does this enhance teamplay? Its nothing more then an ego boost for the player who killshots the most enemies. What about the people who made it possible for this kill to be possoble by shooting away all the armor/hp. In effect the current system is outdated and is way to simplistic to messure "skill". However the aliens do have a nicer system.

Its the same as another game I play, well I don't play NS anymore but thats not the point <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> In Forgotten Hope (ww2 mod for bf42) You have all these tanks, especially the German warmachines, that take a lot of punishments from several AT weapons to go down (some are oneshot kills in some cases, but the bigger tanks aren't) Now since the AT infantry has either a oneshot AT weapon or a slow loading AT weapon he isn't eager to shoot a tank at full health ("The other guy with AT could get my point" kind of thing)

That actually stops teamplay in it's tracks or gets people angry when someone else kills a tank that takes about 4/5 shots --> player1 shoots 3 times and has to do a lot of work not to get killed himself, player2 walks in the general area only to see a tank and he shoots he scores, while player one is either out of ammo or reloading/dying... Now I pesonally don't mind this, as long as the enemy tank is down, but there are people who get very ticked off at this kind of thing and ragequit or start to get abusive...

Hence I don't want to see an emphasis on the Kills/death ratio or kills in general as it is way to oneminded to messure "skill", I want to see a damagepoint system and killshot/assist system instead... In FH it's even less likely to messure this skill level of a player, since there are ways of playing where you don't get ANY points or a very low amount, yet the things you do are what makes your team win (repairing/guarding friendly tanks/spotting for said friendly tanks etc...) But yeah this is not FH, which has more depth on a tactical side (versus a "RPG"/FPS hybrid game even <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />)

MasterPTG · November 2007

An easy fix would be to supplement the kills stat with assists and total damage stats (one for each). =D.

N_3 · November 2007

you can't fix it any way you try, a global stats system starts broken beyond recognition. you can't even hope to have global stats mean anything. there are too many differences between games. for example: map, numbers of players on the server, skill level of other players, teamwork of other players, comm, friends playing with you.

one person's kills or deaths is totally irrelevant because they could have been playing against tough opponents, or easy opponents, with a large number of people, or playing in a server with the only other guy afk.

competitive stats for clan wars (over any particular division) is ok. it actually makes some sense (for comparisons made within that division of a particular tournament/league etc).

NEX9 · November 2007

its 3 res for kill yeah, what about 2 res and one res to the assist if there are three people and you get hte finihsing blow each person gest a res morethan three peope lthe top three damage dealers get the res, well at least for kharaa. but also

the marines so far every building is droped by the com and his score completely shows that why not fix it so the guy who builds the most amount of the building gets the score instead of the com who droped it, but give some some score also.

I also know the frustration of FH except mines with battle feild 2142
some deal suddenly you put 4 of your five rockets into something that isnt letting you have its tail, only to have some lamer watch you not help you then steal the kill, TIME AND TIME AGAIN. said thing is a threat to me yet its not a threat to him, if it was a threat to him i would be trying to pull it off him. usualy i just happyly say thanks man i would of been a goner, and stab him in the face and steal his pilum since i now have no ammo.

Same thing happens in NS i build a heap of OC, fade comes to me for healing a rine runs around the courner OC's are fireing fade still steals the kill

NEX9 · November 2007

Yeah but guys.. and N_3 with lua people will make there own it wont be global but you can better your play from stats at skrims and competiton.

BlakkCooper · November 2007

omg this is why i stopped to use forums -_____-

everywhere are people with UBER OPINIONS they are defending like there balls O.o

look at CS:S or DOD:S. maybe someone remember commands like "rank", "statsme", "top" etc....

i dont feel sorry when i say: u all suck O.O

locallyunscene · November 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlakkCooper @ Nov 27 2007, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>omg this is why i stopped to use forums -_____-

everywhere are people with UBER OPINIONS they are defending like there balls O.o

look at CS:S or DOD:S. maybe someone remember commands like "rank", "statsme", "top" etc....

i dont feel sorry when i say: u all suck O.O</div>
Wow. Usually people have to have posted in the forums for a while before they get this cynical. Must be a fast learner.

MasterPTG · November 2007

If stats are so wrong, how can Halo be so popular?

It's not the stats that makes or breaks the game. It's the game itself with its gameplay, strategy and weapons.

The people playing it don't matter (for there are enough peeps to average out the jerks/nice-people). The stats won't make any difference either, because they are just an extension of the game itself. However, it is fun/nice to have the ability to have your skill tracked over time either in a very limited manner or in a broad sweeping score/per-minute basis separated for both aliens and marines with different scores.

Everyone who says it 'depends on the game, and blah blah blah', sure it does to some degree. It doesn't really matter anyhow, except when choosing com's. W/L ratio for com'ing would be nice, along with a user rating of how good that com is. Sure you could fake it, just so you get voted com until everyone on the server realizes how bad you are, and you -still- get ejected within a minute.

If you've played video games as long as I have, you'll have learned two very important things: video gamers play to have fun, and they're in general a bunch of nice dudes trying to get along for the most part. That doesn't mean they feel like communicating, or doing what people ask them to do, nor doing boring things. They just want to have fun. Because of this, I think any 'anomolies' in the stat system would be just that. Anomolies that no one really cares about.

Are stats going to ruin your game? Uh, no. People care much more about having fun, than for stats. Now, stats provide a tangible assessment of their skill, but that's a measure of the amount of damage they've inflicted on the enemy. It doesn't change the game, not unless it rewards people for like...camping in vents and doing nothing. :x.

People might be a bit more careful about not dying so stupidly, and that may actually be a good thing, but Stats'R'Fun. Even if I sucked at first-person-shooters (which I'm sure some of you do), I'd still be happy to see my stats getting better.

If they implemented a rolling stat system that starts deleting stats that are 10 days old, then that'd provide more incentive, because you could try to do better than your 'stat' from the previous 10 days. That'd be kinda addicting... :x.

If you incorporated whether your team lost or not as a major role in the stat score, then that'd -ensure- that people would try their -very- best to get their team to win and not 'farm' kill from spawns (which I think is going to get fixed anyhow...).

Maybe boost their 'score' by 1% by game you win and not lose. IE, you won 12 games, lost 10. 12 - 10 = 2. 2% bonus to your score for helping your team win. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. Everyone loves bonuses <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />. LoL. You could check b/f the game score is solidified if there are all unique steamids too/if tehre are at least 10 people in the game. This wouldn't take too much CPU.....I wouldn't think? I dunno. I have no idea lol.

Misere · November 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MasterPTG @ Nov 27 2007, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1662109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If stats are so wrong, how can Halo be so popular?</div>

First off you can't compare a game like NS to the killing fields of Halo coz its apples and oranges, they are both fruit but very different. NS is far more team based but at the end of the day if STATS are introduced it could detract from that unless the STATS reflect a team based style of play. Getting points for welding/healing your team mates or dropping structures would be a good example. However, if its kill rates etc then we are introuble. It would need to have some sort of wieghted scoring system.

e.g. Building and welding/healing are worth more than kills as they are less prestigious and need to be incouraged. If you have a welde, there are no aliens within a certain raduis and a marine CONSTANTLY REQUESTION TO BE WELDED BUT YOUR NOT <CENSORED> DOING IT (emen sorry just came back from a bad game) you lose points if that marine dies before he gets welded.

MasterPTG · November 2007

They're both first-person-shooters. Stats are stats any which way you cut it. The comparison sticks.

The stats can be altered appropriately (just...amuse me and -look- at the current stat system for NS, ok?). And don't reward things -too- much that take -zero- skill. Sure, it takes some sort of brain to switch to a welder and weld someone, but on the other hand, that guy could go 3-23 (if he welded peeps, then good for him, but he should not have a ton of stat points unless he built/welded a -Hellalot-. Let's not reward welding tooooo much (or any other brainless activities). Buildings, welding, etc should be encouraged by giving out stat points, but certainly the person who kills a lot did -his- own share. Killing is much more difficult, AND should be rewarded more than welding. However, I think building should get quite a few points, just because it absolutely quantifiably helps your team. Someone has to build stuff, and if you can't aim, then you should just be -hunting- for things to build just get lots of uber points. I don't know how much fun that would be.........., but hey...maybe make building more fun? LOOOL. I dunnnooo...

Back On Point:
If you have the choice of welding a marine or killing an alien, which one would you choose? Which one is best for the team? It could be argued that by welding the marine, you enabled the other marine to kill the alien. However, if you have enough skill, just pull out your gun and blast that #$%###$%#'ing alien yourself. And then weld... Which one is more valuable? Well it's a dead alien either way (in theory), unless that other marine can't shoot. Well then both marines die. So the marine that can shoot should get more points <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />, otherwise all the welding in the world isn't going to win the game. Not if they can't shoot #$%#.

Also if you still believe welding > being able to aim, then I'd hate to see people camping and welding each other in gas just to farm welder points........... Seriously.

CanadianWolverine · November 2007

IMHO, I do not like Kill:Death ratios as an indicator as it is now in NS2.

Forget "score" or "points", stats should just be an indicator that your actions were taken note of. As of right now, with out a modification to the NS1 game, it does not recognize time spent building, welding, following way points, or any number of other actions.

I for one enjoy the TF2 use of personal stats that I can view outside of the game to help me determine where I could improve my play or just pick the class that I am able to help my team with the most.

killkrazy · November 2007

Stats work in Halo3.
Stats don't work in Battlefield2.

why? because Halo3 is a frag-fest, just like UT and Quake.
Battlefield is a team based game of king of the hill(s).

BF tried very hard to make team-based scoring work, but it just doesn't, you can't finish the game of BF and think, wow, look at those stats, i did really well! because however you look at it, you failed in some respects. If you healed all your team mates, you sucked at shooting. If you killed alot, you sucked at team-play.

in Halo it's all about Number One, and you can compare yourself without crap like "well i was healing that game" or "I was a transport pilot".

if you gonna put stats in, it has to be something that you can compare everyone on the game on, or it may aswell just be a "good job buddy, pat yourself on the back, you played as a team" message at end of game.

killkrazy · November 2007

Oh, and adding stats would bring an EVEN BIGGER divide between commanders and players on publics.

"THE COMMANDER WONT GIVE ME A WELDER SO I CANNOT GET MY STATS UP"
"THE COMMANDER WONT GIVE ME ANOTHER WAYPOINT"
"THE COMMANDER GAVE JOE A SHOTGUN AND I GOT MAULED WITH MY LMG"

see where it's going? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

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