I like the idea of an Alien commander, if implemented correctly. As long as the actual commanding process is exceedingly different, it sounds like an awesome idea. Maybe have their commander mobile (queen?) and have the ability to effect the environment without taking too much from the Gorges. Having them as a mobile spawnpoint that places hives would be a cool idea. Maybe you could let the Gorges keep their chambers, while the queen gets to place structures reminiscent of Zerg structures that you use for evolution and stat upgrades, and cast "spells" through the infestation (Maybe one that can suck a lone Marine into the infestation or one that causes the infestation to drip acid from the ceiling). Giving the infested areas an eerie feel that makes it feel as if it has a mind of it's own would add to immersion and make the Marines love their flamethrowers.
So here's my rants that you've grown accustomed to <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<b>Alien commander:</b> Brilliant idea in terms of solving the hardship new players have when being alien for the firsts time and not really knowing what to do. There's obviously some problems mentioned already, such as the role of the gorge changing and basicly everything about the game idea, will be interesting to see how it turns out but I'm scared as hell.
<b>Flesh Holes / Tunnels:</b> Please don't call them that, I sort of getting a picture of a woman's.. yeah.. "Going in!".. On a more serious note, I think this will really be a major breakpoint to the game (and make valve be even more interested)! Players being able to create new areas to play on is just simply amazing for a fps, and the whole idea of time going faster inside just adds to my love for the idea. This will also give aliens some sort of counter to the speed of which marines can change hive targets by phasegates. Letting marines travel inside them is also an extremely good idea, and it will add to the athmosphere, a lot.
<u>Ideas</u> Make the alien commander be some big spidery thing, that moves slowly and has 1st person view. I don't really like the idea of that aliens and marines work the same way, they're two different spieces right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
It's great to hear how positive you guys sounded in this podcast, you could really hear that you've just had some sort of breakthrough just by listening to your voices <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Hah, I totally called the alien commader, back in podcast 10 or whatever when you guys were like "yeah, you might say we're <i>doubling</i> the commander's role" or something.
Anyways, I didn't like it then and I didn't like it now. NS is more than Starcraft plus a bunch of people: the asymmetry runs very, very deep, down to a different power structure for each team. The marine team is 90% depedant on the commander if he's not so great, and 100% if he's an effective leader. The alien team is a commune, a group. It makes decisions both as a whole, through coordination, and individually, through each person's choice of actions and, crucially, upgrades. A marine can't change anything about himself without the commander. An alien can change everything from his speed to his actual lifeform. Adding an alien commander reduces at least one of these dynamics. If someone is in charge on the alien team, there's no longer group decision making. It's just waiting for the orders to come down from on high. And if the alien commander has any role other than "drop buildings and yell at people," you remove even more of the self-determination from the Kharaa.
Asymmetry isn't just a question of having different units and abilities for each team. The Zerg, Terran, and Protoss play differently, but you're learning different units with them, not entirely different playstyles. A marine and an alien move differently, fight differently, communicate and coordinate differently, and determine their upgrades differently. The marine commander is a big part of that. The alien commander isn't, because he's not there. At least not yet.
Then again, you guys made NS and that worked out fine, so if you say NS2 will work, I'm inclined to believe you.
i think the alien commander idea can be great and need to be tested.
The tubes, orifice or... different but interesting <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
just for you, !!! i made a little draw of the alien commander (im NOT good okay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
but with that you can see what i have in my mind ! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" />
<a href="http://www.cjb.net/images.html?fcec6.jpg" target="_blank">Hive with alien com.</a> (hl model viewer + Photoshop FTW)
We understand that having two different sides is important to that game. This is in fact one of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2007/11/9th_podcast" target="_blank">four pillars</a> of NS2 that we talked about previously.
Similar things can also be quite different. Starcraft is full of these, and I think the "tubes" we talked about in the podcast are a good example of that as well. You could say that phase gates and the tubes are the same because they allow players to move between two points on the map quickly. However, they are also different:<ul><li>Travel between the two ends of the tubes will not be instantaneous</li><li>Both sides can use the tubes</li><li>There is an actual gameplay space between the ends of the tube where players can fight, etc.</li><li>Multiple players can travel through (and emerge from) a tube at the same time</li><li>The tubes will be difficult to destroy</li></ul>We think of the alien "commander" the same way. The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast) and provide support for the other players. Outside of that description, they may act totally differently. That's almost what the Gorge does in NS, except the resource model is a bit wonky (and no we're not removing the Gorge in NS2). Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.
<!--quoteo(post=1664122:date=Dec 15 2007, 01:10 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Dec 15 2007, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hah, I totally called the alien commader, back in podcast 10 or whatever when you guys were like "yeah, you might say we're <i>doubling</i> the commander's role" or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ha! I remember that part as well, but i assumed they meant that the commander would be twice as important for marines - i never would have guessed they implied an alien comm!
I would really like to have a different name for the alien commander! How about "hive mind"? - I mean, the hive will probably be the alien "CC."
Food for thought: One way to keep the commanding different is to make alien comm less permanent - there won't be one person commanding the whole game, but instead aliens would jump in and out of hive as the game progresses. It could work similar to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29" target="_blank">Borg collective</a> hive mind!
<!--quoteo(post=1664093:date=Dec 15 2007, 06:26 AM:name=asmodee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(asmodee @ Dec 15 2007, 06:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most games the 2 teams are very similar, NS is great BECAUSE THEY ARE SO DIFFERENT.
Anytime I see suggestions to make the teams similar, even if it's something as simple as gorge mines, I cringe. If anything you should be trying to make the teams more different, not similar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I hear you and definitely agree. Let me be clear that the addition of the alien commander isn't definite (we must try it and see if it's better) and we would still be completely focused on keeping the teams unique. That is never going away. Even if the resource model needs to be unified between the two sides, we're not going to see the same tech on both sides with a different skin. The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!
Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 - the basic resource model is the same but the sides are totally different. There can even be differences in how resources are gathered, but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly. An alien Comm could let us really go crazy adding new weapons, abilities and lifeforms later without it breaking the entire system (which in NS1 is quite fragile).
I think what would be critical to people accepting an 'alien' commander, is that it needs to be less controlling and more 'suggestive' in its approach. Also, the individual aliens would still need to have a considerable amount of res to lifeform according to their own decisions and judgments.
As everyone mentioned, the absolutely -stark- difference of playing was one of the things that charmed me. The amazing thing, is that NS actually kinda balanced the two which is -very- hard to do. 3.2 is the best version out yet, and I'm occasionally seeing new players joining servers (amazing after 4'ish years, that you still have -new- people joining the game for the very first time. I asked a few of them where they had 'found' the game, and almost all of them answered either 'from a friend' or 'from cruising steam'.
The critical differences between the aliens and marines were: commander/no commander, slow/fast, pooled res/individual res, building-bound upgrades/hive-bound upgrades, ranged weapons/melee weapons. To me, it seems you're merging the commander aspect, the slow/fast aspect and the res aspect. To me, that makes me kinda sad.
Indeed, while merging these teams into a closer related 'mix', you might be unravelling some of what made NS to unique. I'd take a serious look at these aspects, and make sure that the -core-, -fundamental- gameplay attributes stay as much in spirit as in reality. Certainly not the same reality, but rather just a different one. It just means that if you -merge- away some of the unique abilities (such as teleporting around through entryways to get to another place, or commander mode, or even the resource model), you need to add other elements that scream out "only on aliens can you do this" or "only on marines can you do this".
Only in this sense can you keep the storyline consistent. Much of the lore contains references to things 'alien' as marines wander around. Please make sure that you punctuate the differences as starkly as possible without removing gameplay functionality.
(I'm exagerating to make a point, but I do think it needs to be clearly said).
Max: I'd be very concerned about the environment that you warp people into between the two ends of the tunnel. Creating a fun environment out of what is essentially a very static, dry environment (it is a 'tunnel' for all intensive purposes), is what I'd be worried about. Also there are the intangibles related to it such as: -how long is the tunnel compared to the map walking distance? -how wide is it? -does it have turns? -does it have places to hide in? -if it is straight then won't marines just shoot down a straight hallway and pwn everything? -if so then wouldnt the tunnels be fairly useless and instead be gates for marines to use to infiltrate the alien base faster? -can aliens close the tunnel quickly? -is it always the same tunnel? -if it is not the same tunnel then how many tunnels does the mapper to make? -are the tunnels based on the map at all? -how tall is it and would it allow jp'ers to properly fly in it? -no matter what it looks like, won't it get tiring looking at it if it is used often at all?
I think the tunnels would be better served as a -small warp hole- that is not seen by marines (covered by infestation), which can only be used by the lerks, skulks and gorges. The difference between a small warp hole and a massive worm hole generator for alien vs marine combat, is very large.
Sorry to be brutal, but the way you're talking about 'tubes' gives me horrible nightmares about how NS2 might turn out.
1. Marines should not be able to use tubes. Can Aliens use PGs? No, and there's a damn good reason for that. Smacking up the base to force a beacon has very little risk if you can hop through a PG when the bacon goes down and then guard the other side of the PG. Similar situations also need to be avoided if Aliens are given portal technology. Then there's the problem of griefers or AFKs laming about in a tube. How intuitive is it for the new player to get ambushed, spawncamp-style when he enters an ALIEN structure?
2. Like someone mentioned, Onoses and Fade should not be able to use tubes. I'd be tempted to go as far as saying only Gorges should be able to use tubes, but just Skulks, Lerks and Gorges would be fine I suppose (just make the entrance size explain this). Aliens already dominate the Marines in response time and manoeuvrebility. The Fade is ludicrously powerful already in the hands of a good player, giving the Fade even quicker movement is out of the question. One option could be to allow the entrances/exits to increase in usefulness depending on the number of Hives. E.g. 1 Hive would mean Gorge-only transport, 2 Hives would mean Skulks, Lerks and Gorges, with 3 Hives meaning the aperture/threshold expands to allow a Fade (and maybe Onos) to pass through.
3. These tubes should be a big resource spend, maybe as much as a Hive for an entrance and exit, not less than 30 res (or the NS2 equivalent). This is essentially Hive teleport/MC teleport with more flexibility. It needs to be a gamble if used early as well as a reward for amassing lots of res. If the 'Hive-upgrading' method were used the res cost could be lowered to 20-30 res for an entrance and chamber, since the initial benefits if used early aren't as advantageous.
4. Do you really need a physical space for the tube? What's wrong with an Alien PG that uses an Onos-digest-esque 2D representation during transport to get the feel right? If you have a 3D space for the tube you will need to make entrances and exits which means complications with players blocking or hindering others, players getting lost, players deliberately hiding inside, dealing with what happens if the exit gets destroyed whilst inside, dealing with the question of whether projectiles/objects should be allowed to enter and exit the portals. I think all of this outweighs the benefits, being namely 'immersion'. It sounds like immersion for immersion's sake, which is an approach that has caused a lot of problems for NS in the past.
---
Next: <b>Alien Commander</b> - WTF? This brings the Aliens much closer to being very similar to the Marine side. One of NS's biggest advantages is that you have two dramatically different gametypes all rolled into one game. I'm sure the guys at Valve will have applauded this decision because it makes the game more casual, but you really need to bear in mind your established audience and the majority of your initial customer base is nowhere near casual and won't really like steps that take NS closer to the 'red vs blue' formula that exists in a lot of other games.
Then there's the fact that the 'Hive mind' gives the Aliens a very different feel to the Marines. Aliens communicate WAY more than Marines in a game, because each person has to assume a role. For Marines, (ignoring competitive play), you essentially have 'Chessmaster' and 'Pawn'. On Aliens you have someone going Lerk, some dropping RTs, some dropping chambers, one saving for Hive, one saving for Fade. This means that even a newbie can feel like he's playing an important part. I worry that an Alien commander will take away from this more collaborative and democratic side of NS. My favourite wins are always as Aliens, because you feel that you've really had to gel with other players to get something done. Please don't take that sensation away, it really doesn't exist in many other games.
The only way I can see this working is, as MasterPTG said, using a suggestive approach. Have a readyroom-voted Alien 'General', who assigns simple tasks/objectives to other team members as a way of helping players to learn the game. When you get an objective (e.g. 'Save up your resources to drop the Hive at $hive_location to help your team' or 'Spend your resources to evolve to a higher lifeform') you can reject it or you can accept it. The vote interface would appear somewhere visible, but not distracting or oversized on the screen. Upon completing a set objective you are rewarded with bonus scoreboard points depending on how important the objective was (e.g. dropping a Hive gives the most bonus points).
This way new players could be taught the game via an interactive tutorial that begins the very moment they boot up the game with other real players, and the Alien team has the option of assigning an authoritative figure to assign objectives and help others into the game. Importantly, this player cannot control the outcome of the game for any of the Alien players, so the Alien team still has the strongest teamwork and the most rewarding gameplay at pub level.
Some ideas for objectives:
<b>Save up your resources to drop the Hive at $hive_location to help your team</b> Bonus points given for dropping the Hive in the correct location.
<b>Spend your resources to evolve to a higher lifeform</b> Bonus points given for evolving to any higher lifeform (e.g. Lerk to Fade would be valid, Gorge to Skulk would not). Extra bonus points for staying alive for 60 seconds.
<b>Defend $map_location from Marine attack</b> Bonus points given for entering map location within 20 seconds. Extra bonus points given per 5 seconds of staying in area until objective expires. Extra bonus points given for each Marine kill during the objective's duration period. Objective expires when Marines have been cleared from the location for a full 10 seconds.
<b>Use the Lerk's spores at $map_location to help scatter and injure Marines</b> Bonus points given for every 100 damage dealt from spores. Extra bonus points given for each Marine spore kill during the objective's duration period. Objective expires when Marines have been cleared from the location for a full 10 seconds.
<b>Evolve to Gorge and build a $upgrade_chamber</b> Bonus points for building the correct chamber. Bonus points for building additional chambers within 30 seconds of the first chamber dropped.
<b>Evolve to Gorge and heal your teammates!</b> Bonus points for every 100HP healed within a 60 second period.
<b>Evolve to Gorge and heal the Hive at $hive_location!</b> Bonus points for every 100HP healed until Hive reaches full HP.
Lastly you could always tie this idea into an achievements or stats page, which could also be shown on your profile on the forums as well as your Steam profile.
---
As for how this could work, I was thinking the 'General' would select the player(s) first from the scoreboard menu, then use the 'general menu' to assign an objective, with objectives listed by theme much like the radio commands are on the radio menu.
using the word <u>alien-commander</u> and <u>new resource-model</u> in 1 setence is really scary.. ok - so - if the <i>"alien commander"</i> is using all alien resources, how do you build strucs? alien comm drops 'em? how do you evolve? alien comm makes you evolve?
and on the other hand you're saying the gorge is not going to be removed - so what's the gorges job if he cant build because of a new resource model? heal and spit? im really confused on how that's going to turn out..
I get that making things similar on both teams, but at the same time appear different is important, I mean if you think about I, it happens in all RTS games. You get your basic units that are similar to each other, do kinda the same thing, maybe have stronger elements, but it’s not till you get to the special units where the differences really become apparent. I kinda see the “Commanders†as these special units, they should get different powers and a different way of viewing the world.
But I wonder that because NS2 is a combination of a FPS and a RTS that perhaps the commander is not the special units, he is just the RTS player and that the special units are just the guys on the ground, and the technologies the commander can use, like the PG and the DI-Tubes or DI-Tunnels (it’s a better word than tubes, but then tubes does scream body parts, maybe we should just call them DI-Arteries=DIAs).
I do however think the contrast should be kept. I mean the Kharaa are not so much the Aliens, they are the organic creatures. I mean if you think about the two teams, it currently breaks down like this:
<b>Marines: Metal, industrial, dictatorship (the commander), technology, ranged weapons, explosions, radio communication, drug induced enhancements, extra metal/unnatural armour…
Aliens: Organic, natural, freedom (the hive mind saying “it be cool if you went over there but you don’t have toâ€), growing items/plants (like chambers), bile and spines (natural substances), psychic communication (the hive mind), natural abilities and genetic improvements... </b>
If you think about it, the Marines are the industrial warriors, determined to build everything, wipe out nature and build a multi story car park on every plot of land not taken up by buildings or roads. And the Kharaa are the trapped dangerous animals; the “we love nature†militant hippies; the creatures that were lucky enough to be genetically blessed with abilities unknown to mankind.
And I believe this is the key part of NS, you have to make the point of the two sides, its not alien Vs marine, its nature Vs industrial. It’s just like Lord of the Rings. The marines are the Orcs and what not, burning down all the trees, trying to build up their industrial empire, and the Kharaa are the Ents trying to hold onto their way of life. Except it’s the other way around, the Kharaa have invaded somewhere where humans already live, and the Marines are just trying to get it back.
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->So basically I (and I hope all of you will agree with me on this one) think this is the most important part of the NS Universe, the contrast between the two teams.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> That’s why there is always a divide between people who like marines and people who like aliens. It’s part of what makes the community so special. You’re either Aliens or Marines. Once you find out which one you like, you love it. This is also the reason why most people so far are really iffy on the idea of an alien commander, because its starts to push the two teams together, making them similar, and loosing that unique team loyalty aspect.
It’s the kind of thing that RTSs or table top strategy games can get around by introducing large amounts of background and history to an army or race, but currently there is not enough background in NS to make this really work. Currently, the only real thing that Kharaa players have is the game, they have no idea where this race came from, or why they should support them, just that they like the freedom they get from it being on that team and don’t like being bossed around by a commander or having to wait for him/her to give them a weapon. (<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->GET SOME BACKGROUND ON DUDE!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->)
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Basically I believe (as a Kharaa player) that NS2 should emphasize these differences and the freedoms you get from being an Alien, the tube idea does this partly, and the team work you have to put in as a Marine. This should go deep into the background as well, even into the preset communications that I’m sure will be included, marines could say things like “For the TSA!†or “Commander, I am you Sword!†or “Commander, I am you Fist!†or “Commander, you are my eyes†or “Commander I am your sword, you are my wings!†emphasising their allegiance to the cause and to the commander. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
And in contrast the Kharaa should have abilities that emphasize that they are individual creatures, divided physically, but connected by one mind. Perhaps being able to send signals that almost force unruly players into line, maybe giving a whole team tunnel vision when an objective really needs to be completed, so they focus on a way point. Or being able to eat their own team and gaining the resources. Or setting sent trails that when needed could be turned into a “you must go this way†path, that would do annoying things if a player went off that path, much like a person with OCD would get if they didn’t do all the compulsive things they had to do. I think it might effect game play badly though... I guess I’m trying to come up with an idea that allows the Aliens to not have a set commander like the Marines, but is more like a democracy, I would say votes, but these would take too long. I guess the best option is allowing everyone to have sort of command powers, like a super gorge, so when you evolve into, lets say a gorge (just for simplicity) you gain a enhanced mini map and you can place way points and instruction to other players, you could also build the DIAs (tubes) doors and what not, just like I would expect a gorge to be able to. But unlike a commander you wouldn’t be in a chair or constantly looking down on the map. You would just open up the mini map and drop in way points when things needed doing. Also you wouldn’t be the only one capable of doing this, all gorges could do this, so basically everyone on your team (their might need to be a restriction on how many people can be a gorge, like a weapon restriction on servers/games, where only X amount of people can have the best weapons). Each waypoint would be marked up by a different colour or shape depending on who dropped it and would disappear after a set amount of minuets, so players who had stopped being gorge wouldn’t keep old waypoints up. It would also mean that gorge players would be more likely to be protected by stronger players while they set out strategies and such, but wouldn’t be constrained by a commanding role or area. This way would allow the Alien commander to more like an Alien Squad leader rather than a commander who has all the responsibility.
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->So yeah, basically, give gorge (or all players?) a detailed “hive mind†mini map, which they can add data to, like way points and attack/defence points, which disappear after a set amount of time or when a player dies. I think this would be the best option, rather than a set commander. It would keep the contrast between teams and allow for a commanding system that would improve teamwork and understanding from new players. What do you think? Just an idea...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
...What ever happens I’m sure the UW will make the right choice for the game...
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=1664135:date=Dec 15 2007, 09:00 PM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Dec 15 2007, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->using the word <u>alien-commander</u> and <u>new resource-model</u> in 1 setence is really scary.. ok - so - if the <i>"alien commander"</i> is using all alien resources, how do you build strucs? alien comm drops 'em? how do you evolve? alien comm makes you evolve?
and on the other hand you're saying the gorge is not going to be removed - so what's the gorges job if he cant build because of a new resource model? heal and spit? im really confused on how that's going to turn out..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
c0ke, I think what they are saying is they want to try out alien commander as a way of binding the kharaa together, and helping new players understand/learn the two teams. I imagine that the Alien commander won't do as much as the marine commander, if they have one at all. I assume they are keeping the Gorge as a builder, but that perhaps the commander will tell him where to build, or give him the resources to build. I can't see them having you being forced to evolve into set creatures by the Commander, this would too similar to the Marines, unless you come back as that same creature again, which wouldn't be so bad, but it would just be the same as Marines. But perhaps the commander might dish out how many resources you get, maybe?? Who knows? But I think it's safe to say that Gorge will still be a builder, just how much of control he'll have, who knows; I hope he doesn't change too much I would hate him to just become a welder for the aliens. <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Hopefully they will tell us more next week.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited December 2007
I have a few concerns about the alien commander. I can see the advantages to it in terms of resource model, and the types of things it would allow the aliens to do, but know the other side effects.<ol type='1'><li>Right now, having a fun game of ns requires at least one really knowledgeable and good player per server. Having an alien commander requires two.</li><li>One of the things I've loved about playing as an alien is that it always seems that in general the alien team talks to each other more. Inter-person communication is more essential because there's no one coordinating it from above. The marines usually don't have that amount of communication because they don't need it. I don't want to lose that from the alien team.</li><li>If NS starts to feel like one commander vs the other, I don't think any of the rest of the players will be having quite as much fun.</li><li>Right now the aliens always have one more player on the ground, which seems appropriate for a marines vs. bugs type of scenario.</li></ol>One thing about the tubes: For performance reasons I think you will have to have the tube very curved. If you can see through from one room to the other I suspect you'll kill everyone's framerate. I'm envisioning this being implemented where the shape of it strictly limits the visibility, so you can show the player the vis groups from the entrance on one side of the tube, and the exit on the other.
I'm also a little concerned that the way the tubes bind far away areas of map geometry will be very confusing in terms of map layout. I don't think you want "portal-like" transitions in the entrances and exits.
<!--quoteo(post=1664139:date=Dec 15 2007, 09:27 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(moultano @ Dec 15 2007, 09:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. One of the things I've loved about playing as an alien is that it always seems that in general the alien team talks to each other more. Inter-person communication is more essential because there's no one coordinating it from above. The marines usually don't have that amount of communication because they don't need it. I don't want to lose that from the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree! I would miss that... If anything more ways to communicate is the option, hence my idea of place-able way points on mini map for Alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=1664131:date=Dec 15 2007, 02:15 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Dec 15 2007, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664131"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that's what makes NS so unique. Few other games even attempt to do something like it because a top down vs a bottom up team is so difficult to do. The audacity and triumph of NS is that it pulls it off. No matter how different the Starcraft teams or Warcraft III teams are, I know exactly what I'm doing when a game starts: I'm going to build units to destroy my enemy, build counters to the units they build, and try to secure the resources. I'm going to do this the exact same way whether I'm playing Undead, Night Elf, Humans, or Orcs. Sure, if I'm Undead I'll use a different strategy than I would if I was Night Elves, but the difference is just in the units, not in the fundamentals. NS is combat between fundamentals: the marines and the aliens. If you change both teams to be top down, it might be easier to balance, but that gets rid of the deepest difference between the two teams and makes it just a question of "well the aliens generally use melee weapons and have lots of special abilities, but the marines use guns and stick together more." That's nothing special. That's just Gloom or something. You can swap around weapons and movement and everything all you want, but at the end if you get rid of the alien "hive mind" mentality then they're just marines that require different twitch skills.
Like some people, Im a bit scared of what I've heard on the last podcast about the up-coming stuff on NS2. (Congrats on decoda btw and the presentation at valve).
The reason why I loved NS at the first touch and why Im still playing it is the assymetric gameplay (big surprise) but also the ressource system. NS 3.2 is not only different between alien and marine by different way of moving, lifeforms, upgrades etc etc but also by the ressource managment. On one side we have marines with a comm who control those ressources on whatever his team needs to achieve their goal, and on the other side you have aliens who control their own ressources on whatever they need to help their team to achieve their goal.
And so, when Im hearing about an alien commander Im a bit scared. Of course, when I picture an alien comm, I don't see a marine comm like with button, tech tree and stuff but then I see this <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe I don't understand this right, but do you want the alien comm to have the same view as the marine view ? I mean, it doesn't even fit with this NS story. Alien are suppose to be more fleshlike, use organic stuff and not meca-comm-nano-tech. As I see it it's like one guy who can participate a bit much on the field to organise his teammates. Like pheromone that he could send somewhere on the map to warn his little subject or to gather them; or give him, for a limited time, the use of his third ability without the 2nd hive or something like that. Or even an entity controled by something bigger (not a player). But hey, can't really make up your mind before you created it right ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
While adding a commander for the aliens sounds like it would detract from the uniqueness of the Alien team compared to the Marine team, I think it poses the possibility of adding some really interesting game mechanics.
I don't see the Alien commander being anything remotely like the Marine commander. Where the Marine commander is pretty much the puppet master and either makes or breaks the Marine team, the Alien commander is something completely different.
The Alien commander could be a sort of a <i>super</i> life-form, the ultimate product of the evolutionary chain of the Kharaa, much more evolved than it's brethren in both physical and mental prowess, actively participating in the game.
Imagine a Kharaa that vaguely resembles a Fade in form, but is able to turn invisible at will, can scale walls of the infestated hallways with blinding speed, makes the infestation grow vigurously where-ever it goes and can snatch unsuspecting marines, taking them to where-ever it pleases through the tunnels which it creates at will. Last but not least, is entirely un-killable as long as it stays on the infestation. Upon death it would simply dissapate in to a bacterial mass and re-appear at the nearest Hive.
... Okay, perhaps I got a bit carried away, but my point stands. The Alien commander can be something entirely different than the Marine counter-part and IMO it poses great potential. Thumbs up for that.
The alien team could only have one tunnel at a time (per hive). The alien commander can change / remove the points as long as there is infestation. The tunnel itself is made by bending space around to the inside of the hive so when an alien enters the tunnel it is really located within the hive. The skin inside the hive is almost like a callus and any marines inside attempting to damage the hive would have a harder time doing damage. However they can cut the skin with a knife opening up soft fleshy areas. The callus skin would have to be held by one marine while the others do damage. When a marine enters the tunnel the hive warns the aliens about the marine and starts excreting an acid that does a small amount of damage over time. If the alien commander removes both entrances to the tunnel then all aliens inside can leave through a small opening that is only there when the entrances aren't up. They could also choose to stay inside and for an ambush.
Aliens inside the tunnel get a healing benefit. If there are aliens inside the tunnel and the entrances are removed and the alien commander is setting up an ambush at a place with infestation the alien commander could create a two sided ambush placing the entrances on two sides of the room allowing the aliens inside the chance to pick where they wish to exit from. The tunnel itself has a set size no matter the distances it covers since the hive bends spacese.
Marines can close a tunnel by cutting around the outside of an entrance and welding the flesh together. This causes the hive a small amount of damage and some time is required for the hive to heal the now closed end. So that end of the tunnel cant be used until it is fixed. If marines are inside the tunnel and the alien commander removes the entrances they can stay and be eaten by the acid (or attempt to finish off the hive) or they can leave using the small exit that opens up.
Anything that dies within the tunnel of the hive is absorbed by the hive healing it instantly. The more mass that is absorbed the more the hive is healed. So if a skulk dies the over health gain is small. If a gorge or human dies its larger.
Thats it, it might be overly complex but I think it sounds pretty cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1664138:date=Dec 15 2007, 04:21 PM:name=INKEDOUT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(INKEDOUT @ Dec 15 2007, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664138"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Marines: Metal, industrial, dictatorship (the commander), technology, ranged weapons, explosions, radio communication, drug induced enhancements, extra metal/unnatural armour…
Aliens: Organic, natural, freedom (the hive mind saying “it be cool if you went over there but you don’t have toâ€), growing items/plants (like chambers), bile and spines (natural substances), psychic communication (the hive mind), natural abilities and genetic improvements... </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A very good, but <i>extremely long</i> post, INKEDOUT. I completely agree with your classification of aliens and marines and would like the spirit to continue when developing the hive mind (=alien comm). One thing i propose is to avoid having one alien leader for the entire game.
Democratic Alien Research: I would like to see a democratic/organic selection of hive research. Unlike the marine comm who decides: Armor 1 will be researched, each player would be able to select what area would receive greater funding: 5 aliens would choose armor and 1 would choose weapons development. Since it's always best to quickly research an upgrade and then switch, the one player might decide to switch and choose armor development as well to follow the team. Some people forget to choose or don't know what's best to upgrade, so they don't vote and let others, who do vote, decide for them. (i think the Borg in StarTrek would be a good example: each member is interfaced with everyone else and has some say, yet as a whole, the race moves into one direction together. There's also no need for a leader) Of course, this system might be a complete failure if aliens don't agree to cooperate.
Hive mind's role: Alien playing as hive-mind would work differently from marine comm: he would be able to 1) give aliens bonuses using "spells," 2) keep track and affect the infestation spread and 3) look for marines in alien territory. Hive-mind would be more of a supportive role (similar to comm's med-packs, ammo, and the new spells). I would imagine that it would be possible to have more hive-minds than one (especially when there are 2 hives, but possibly even at 1 hive)
Universal res: The new <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418" target="_blank">marine weapon distribution system</a> is a step in aliens' direction: marines would be able to choose the weapon they'd like to use, instead of being given one by the comm. I think, similarly, the aliens could make a step towards marines' resource model. A fraction of all res gained would go towards the alien pool and used for upgrades: for example, 60% of all res goes towards individual alien forms, while 40% goes into the hive pool.
Weldbot: Good idea. The thing NS1 lacked was something weaker than a marine, and worth less than one fully intelligent (in some cases anyways) player. It's really a waste to have one guy running around with a welder when he should be going out there shooting something up. Besides, some direct commander control would help situations where there is a good com, but players that don't always listen. The thing NS has over other RTS games, however, was that you didn't have to micromanage units, because players are a lot less stupid than the horrible unit AI built into most RTSs. One need only say "go out in pairs" or "go to feedwater", and the player can pick out what he thinks is the best path to get there. Thus, I would suggest making a few good AI controlled things. They would follow direct orders from the com, but if left alone, they would still be helpful.
The alien side could use a few AI things as well, but not nearly as much. Perhaps if gorges could "pop out" a weak mini-gorge to sit in a general area and heal stuff, so that occasional attacks don't devastate an outpost. This would remove the micromanaging gorges sometimes have to do to keep their side winning. Gorges should be spending more of their effort on the very back line, constructing new hives, or very frontline stuff, such as battle gorging. 8) Moreover, minor AI in alien structures would be a good idea, and better fit in with the "mood" of the Kharaa side. The "even their structures think" would add to the already spooky/frightening atmosphere of playing as a marine.
Alien commander: Not a good idea, not as you think of it. But done in a different way, it could. Part of the experience of NS is two very different sides, with Marines being autocratic, the commander being the source of all strategy, and the aliens being more like a "perfect anarchy", with free communication between all of them, everyone listening to everyone else, and just saying "someone get over to *". Thus, aliens are quicker to figure things out and respond to threats, but often not able to respond with the same amount of force... It's a very different kind of thinking, the aliens really do form a social Hive Mind when they play. So I suppose the question is how to capitalize on this, rather than how to change it. Thus, I would propose that all gorges have the ability to quickly go into a lesser commander mode, where they could manage a few small matters more easily than through their own unit's eyes. (And perhaps they could be in a weak protective cocoon when they do so?) I'm not exactly sure what it would be for, as aliens can order themselves around already - and they do - but perhaps it could give them a better view about how the game is currently going, and where units and structures might be needed, so they could point this out over voicechat or perhaps go there themselves. Or perhaps they could order around lesser alien lifeforms (read: AI), change structure priorities (perhaps offense towers should focus on hitting harder rather than faster? or perhaps res towers should focus less on gathering res and slightly more on self-healing?). Perhaps gorges could set access controls on structures through command mode, so that any skulk could change properties, or only other gorges, or only the gorge who built it. In short, you want to work with the anarchy or direct democracy mood that playing as an alien gives, not change it.
Speaking of gorges, part of the current problems with being a career gorge in the current version is gorges don't have enough res to do everything they need to. I know in older versions of NS, gorges were given more res directly, but this was very open to abuse, as some would gorge just to get a bit more personal resources for turning into higher lifeforms. Perhaps this problem could be solved in NS2 by having both personal resources, and a "pool" that could be drawn from specifically to build structures, for gorges that had long ago run out of resources when the built those chambers and hive. If non-gorges could "donate" to the pool easily, that would work into the mood of playing the alien side as well. It's actually the exact opposite of my idea for the NS2 Marine resource model, where the commander could allocate resources from the general pool to specific players for quick purchase of equipment. Perhaps on the marine side, the commander can opt to either have everyone have a specific item when they spawn in (for example, everyone gets a jetpack), and/or perhaps choose their own weapon (I want a shotgun, not a HMG!!). But ultimately, the commander decides how much of the pool the player-unit gets. And another thing, the idea of marines getting res for dead aliens is stupid. Stop it. The reverse is a good idea, however. Skulks should be as bold as possible in early game, I say. 8)
Tunnels: Good idea, but I don't think the larger two lifeforms should have access, at least not without an upgrade. And I'm not sure how exactly this should be implemented. Basically, you don't want aliens to be like marines, but they need some similar capabilities. You don't want tunnels to be the same as phase gates. Perhaps if the distance of the flesh hallway was 1/2 or 1/4 of the real distance (if it were a straight line) between the places? MCs would be more useful, as they always get you to a hive, but perhaps tunnels could be made in such a way that they would be great in specific situations. It has a lot of potential, but you'd have to make it "different".
Oh, and something from the previous podcasts, welding. You want to make everything as transparent to the map-maker as possible. Perhaps if "weld lines" could easily be added to terrain and doors? Pre-generated objects (such as an average door) could have weld-lines built in, but the map-maker should be able to easily and quickly make a particular door unweldable. Similarly, if you want terrain to be "destructible" (such as a bridge), one could make "death lines" a part of it, to determine how it would fall apart if sufficient damage was done to it. But keep triggers a part of the equation, so if the map-maker can think of a specific event that happens if the bridge falls apart, it could occur.
Basically, you want to do to RTS/FPS and just FPS games what StarCraft and WarCraft III did to RTSs: make it easy to do whatever the map-maker wants, going well beyond what the game creator intended. Of course, I'm sure you already knew that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
(offtopic: the archives feature on the blog for the last few months is broken, making it hard to look up old podcasts and blog posts)
<!--quoteo(post=1664161:date=Dec 15 2007, 06:36 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 15 2007, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien commander - could be good could be bad, I'm neutral.
MC teleportation without hives, and separate from upgrade chambers - awesome, should have been included in NS several versions ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
Need to know more about this alien commander. I certainly hope he won't be commanding from a top down perspective, well maybe temporarily, I'd live with that.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I just wanted to say that my initial reaction to this was mostly kneejerk I think. The more I think about it the more fine/awesome it seems, and doesn't worry me in the least. It'll be a different game, but that's good.
So.. interesting to hear some new stuff <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> My feelings about it
Welding downtime: I dont have any problems with it. It's part of the game doing "boring" stuff to get something accomplished for the team, and if your team is winnign because you're building/killing rts it can be very satisfying.
Alien commander: As many others I'm very sceptical and probably dont want to see it. Of course, the same resource model on both side would make it a lot easier, but I have confidence in you and the playtesters that the current system can be kept and balanced in NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /> Currently I only think the gorges need some more options/fuctiones, so they have less "down-time"
Tubes: Hmm.. even after your responses I'm still not too sure how much they would differ from PGs. Aliens already got the speed advantage, why should they now be able to move en masse from one part of the map to another (just speculation here, seeing how noone knows who the DI system will really work). But I agree that it can be great for the atmosphere.
Random locations: Should be tested, although being a clan-player, I see some balancing issues with this idea
Weld-bot: Like it, although it should be kept to a minimum AI imo (can only do stuff like following)
Hope I wasn't too negative <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> Keep up the good work!
I absolutely love the idea of weldbots flying around players and buildings.
If you guys have played 'Tyrian', you'll know what I'm thinking of. In Tyrian you can get 'sidekicks' that float around your ship, firing weapons. I can imagine the weldbots being like that, except they weld for you. Maybe you could purchase different kinds of bots too, like one that does fire a very weak weapon. That may be quite cool. Maybe even one that adminsters small health boosts periodically, only restoring say 5 health every 5/10 seconds.
The possibilities are endless, but the idea of AI-controlled bots, independant of the player yet still helping the team, is brilliant. You could even have bots that float around the base, welding things and/or acting as mobile, but very weak, sentry turrets.
I don't know, just throwing some ideas out there. Though the idea of a bot with a weak machine gun built in sounds really cool to me, though it'd need to be balanced. I have this image of a Marine running out of the Marine Start (heading right) with a bot hovering around him/her.
<!--quoteo(post=1664177:date=Dec 16 2007, 01:35 AM:name=Khaze)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Khaze @ Dec 16 2007, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664177"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Alien commander could be a sort of a <i>super</i> life-form, the ultimate product of the evolutionary chain of the Kharaa, much more evolved than it's brethren in both physical and mental prowess, actively participating in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No.
Any naturally superior lifeform: - can dominate the (early) game - promotes selfish, rambo-esque play - creates animosity between the player who gets to play as the superalien and the players who don't - requires experience to get the most out of it, so is not newbie-friendly - doesn't come with any risk for the Aliens
Stronger lifeforms need to be a reward and they need to represent a strategic decision. E.g. a Fade costs the same as a Hive, to choose a Hive1 Fade you make the strategic gambit that you will be able to make as much of a difference as a building Hive would. A superalien does not represent any sort of sacrifice at all.
Before you try to compare it to the Commander, remember that the Commander cannot deal direct damage, he can only deal passive damage via Elec and Turrets and through a third-party, his Marines. His abilities are supportive and instructional. He cannot move, and can be cornered in his CC if his team becomes cut off from the base. If he leaves the CC he loses all his Commander abilities and becomes a Marine. Your superalien has none of these drawbacks.
[Edit] One last thing:
If you really want to play Commander vs. Commander, surely you can just play MvM?
You know the more I think about it, the more I love the tunnels. It really frees the aliens of having to have a hive that is very close to thier own hive (thereby increeseing the strategic choices). I know in NS1 if your on nancy and you got subspace hive, there is really only one choice for a 2nd hive for aliens usualy. Assuming you can get some DI over there (Im stil not 100% sure what "causes" DI, but I assume its resnodes or hives) and then a tunnel, you could build your hive at any location you wanted.
As far as a super-lifefrom alien commander, If you add the restriction that it cant move off DI, then a) the early game would be protected. b) The superlifeform wouldnt be just ramboing (as once it hits the point that it can move around alot, the potenital for its death becomes larger and it would probably want to only go if a hive or something important was under attack) c) Alot of players wouldnt want to play something that just sits around most of the game, and as such wouldnt care about becoming the alien commander d) While Im sure that it would require a bit of experance to do well, As aliens arnt as bound to thier commander as marines are even with a bad alien commander the alien team could still win. e) Clearly there would have to be some risk, such as when the commander dies it has to have enough res to come back (and waits around dead till it has 40-50 res)
Also I think it would solve the problem of the early game spawn camping by marines (once mid/late game hits, no marine should be able to spawn camp for long before a fade or onos shows up). Although there would still need to be some way for the alien commander to affect people far away from itsself (if only in a minor way), so that it can do things in the early game and not get board.
Weld-bot/etc: I would go so far as to suggest making the base-b**** role obsolete. Give the commander the ability to (slowly) build up the marine start without requiring a 2nd player to hang around holding down his use key.
Tunnels: Cool idea! I got the impression from the podcast that the players wouldn't find it obvious that they were stepping through portals? As in these tunnels look like a natural hole in the wall, you walk in, come out the other side and go "wtf, how did I get here so fast?". If that is the general gist of it, then I'm all for it. What I'm picturing is similar in dimensions to the HL2:EP2 ant-lion tunnels: Mostly crawl-spaces with taller rooms here and there, except that the tunnels would undulate quite a bit to hinder marine sight-lines. The tunnels could even be made slippery and hard to move on for non-alien players...
Alien Commander: Tentative yes. I would not like to see a traditional top-down alien commander, but the idea of an alien super-lifeform sounds like it has potential. It would indeed make it very different from the stationary command chair! I've been wondering about the possibility of making this lifeform a part of the DI. Specifically, the commander would be the "head" and the rest of the DI would be the "body". The alien commander would be tethered to the DI, but able to influence the spread of it, with commander's strengths and abilities tied directly into the amount of nearby DI.
EDIT: In reading someone else's post, I saw a hint of something that might be cool: Pheromones as the main tool for alien commanding! Instead of high-tech HUD overlays, alien commands could be relayed via scents/etc. There would be no selecting of alien players by the comm, only a pheromone waypoint set down, with only nearby players being notified by the game. Perhaps there could even be a reward system for certain commands (eg, "build this structure here, and earn 50% of its build cost" "guard this area, and receive this temporary buff for as long as you remain there"). In this way, the alien commander would more feel coercive than commanding.
<!--quoteo(post=1664229:date=Dec 16 2007, 02:45 PM:name=obsid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid @ Dec 16 2007, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know the more I think about it, the more I love the tunnels. It really frees the aliens of having to have a hive that is very close to thier own hive (thereby increeseing the strategic choices). I know in NS1 if your on nancy and you got subspace hive, there is really only one choice for a 2nd hive for aliens usualy. Assuming you can get some DI over there (Im stil not 100% sure what "causes" DI, but I assume its resnodes or hives) and then a tunnel, you could build your hive at any location you wanted.
As far as a super-lifefrom alien commander, If you add the restriction that it cant move off DI, then a) the early game would be protected. b) The superlifeform wouldnt be just ramboing (as once it hits the point that it can move around alot, the potenital for its death becomes larger and it would probably want to only go if a hive or something important was under attack) c) Alot of players wouldnt want to play something that just sits around most of the game, and as such wouldnt care about becoming the alien commander d) While Im sure that it would require a bit of experance to do well, As aliens arnt as bound to thier commander as marines are even with a bad alien commander the alien team could still win. e) Clearly there would have to be some risk, such as when the commander dies it has to have enough res to come back (and waits around dead till it has 40-50 res)
Also I think it would solve the problem of the early game spawn camping by marines (once mid/late game hits, no marine should be able to spawn camp for long before a fade or onos shows up). Although there would still need to be some way for the alien commander to affect people far away from itsself (if only in a minor way), so that it can do things in the early game and not get board.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) = wrong, just like the Marines commander isn't protected unless someone is at base protecting them.
b) = wrong, people would Rambo, and then get stuck at a point where the DI runs out and then probably get shot by a marine. People still Rambo as a commander in BF2, then people get annoyed with them and mutiny against them.
c) = this is why the whole idea of a alien commander is generally a bad one, because if you want to play a commander and "play something that just sits around most of the game" you can go on the marines team.
d) = they would be bound to their commander as much as the Marines if they had one.
e) = and during this time the aliens would loose... or at least be at greater risk of loosing... that’s no fun.
“Also...†= There is nothing wrong with Marines “Spawn Camping†in NS, they have to build stuff, it’s what they do in the early game (like all of the first min, if that). Saying Marines spawn camping is in some way wrong, is like saying CT’s shouldn’t camp a bomb site in CS:S; just silly and clearly poor tactics. If marines started to run out and attack an alien commander, the chances are that either an alien rush would wipe out their chair and commander before they get to the aliens commander (because skulks are way faster than Marines). Or they will go and attack, start to die from skulks and then have to run back to build IPs for those who have died. It’s just poor tactics to suggest that some marines shouldn’t stay in base for the first 10-20 seconds and build stuff. Also one marine is always going to be in base for the first min or so, just to get stuff built and protect the commander. None of those marines are camping in spawn they are doing important things; just like CT’s “camping†at a bomb site in CS:S.
I think the only option for the aliens is a democratic one. Votes, multiple "commanders", place-able waypoints for gorges, pheromones/scents, etc., whatever the option is I know that I don’t want the aliens commander to be just a Marine commander, stuck in one place giving orders and building structures. There should be contrast between the two teams. The more I read peoples alternative ideas, the less I want a standard "look down on the battlefield and decide things for the team" commander. The two teams should be extremely different in how orders are given out and how res is spent.
One of the greatest things about NS is the contrast between the two teams, the fact that there is a divide between the NS community about which side they like more; you either love aliens or marines (or you haven’t played enough to decided). The fact that everything is different about the teams, one is all about ranged weapons, industrial and military command structures; the other is about close combat, organic and an uncontrolled nature. This is very important to the game structure, I hope the team at UW remember this when they play test the game and think about an alien commander.
I worry that the teams are going to become too similar and a bit dull, catering to those who can’t handle the uncontrolled nature of the alien team; but I’m sure (and I hope) I’m wrong...
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=1664237:date=Dec 16 2007, 04:59 PM:name=Revenge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revenge @ Dec 16 2007, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: In reading someone else's post, I saw a hint of something that might be cool: Pheromones as the main tool for alien commanding! Instead of high-tech HUD overlays, alien commands could be relayed via scents/etc. There would be no selecting of alien players by the comm, only a pheromone waypoint set down, with only nearby players being notified by the game. Perhaps there could even be a reward system for certain commands (eg, "build this structure here, and earn 50% of its build cost" "guard this area, and receive this temporary buff for as long as you remain there"). In this way, the alien commander would more feel coercive than commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea, rewarding the Aliens for doing things and perhaps telling them what they are gaining by doing it.
Comments
Also I love everything about the tube idea.
<b>Alien commander:</b>
Brilliant idea in terms of solving the hardship new players have when being alien for the firsts time and not really knowing what to do. There's obviously some problems mentioned already, such as the role of the gorge changing and basicly everything about the game idea, will be interesting to see how it turns out but I'm scared as hell.
<b>Flesh Holes / Tunnels:</b>
Please don't call them that, I sort of getting a picture of a woman's.. yeah.. "Going in!"..
On a more serious note, I think this will really be a major breakpoint to the game (and make valve be even more interested)! Players being able to create new areas to play on is just simply amazing for a fps, and the whole idea of time going faster inside just adds to my love for the idea. This will also give aliens some sort of counter to the speed of which marines can change hive targets by phasegates. Letting marines travel inside them is also an extremely good idea, and it will add to the athmosphere, a lot.
<u>Ideas</u>
Make the alien commander be some big spidery thing, that moves slowly and has 1st person view. I don't really like the idea of that aliens and marines work the same way, they're two different spieces right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
It's great to hear how positive you guys sounded in this podcast, you could really hear that you've just had some sort of breakthrough just by listening to your voices <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Anyways, I didn't like it then and I didn't like it now. NS is more than Starcraft plus a bunch of people: the asymmetry runs very, very deep, down to a different power structure for each team. The marine team is 90% depedant on the commander if he's not so great, and 100% if he's an effective leader. The alien team is a commune, a group. It makes decisions both as a whole, through coordination, and individually, through each person's choice of actions and, crucially, upgrades. A marine can't change anything about himself without the commander. An alien can change everything from his speed to his actual lifeform. Adding an alien commander reduces at least one of these dynamics. If someone is in charge on the alien team, there's no longer group decision making. It's just waiting for the orders to come down from on high. And if the alien commander has any role other than "drop buildings and yell at people," you remove even more of the self-determination from the Kharaa.
Asymmetry isn't just a question of having different units and abilities for each team. The Zerg, Terran, and Protoss play differently, but you're learning different units with them, not entirely different playstyles. A marine and an alien move differently, fight differently, communicate and coordinate differently, and determine their upgrades differently. The marine commander is a big part of that. The alien commander isn't, because he's not there. At least not yet.
Then again, you guys made NS and that worked out fine, so if you say NS2 will work, I'm inclined to believe you.
i think the alien commander idea can be great and need to be tested.
The tubes, orifice or... different but interesting <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
just for you, !!! i made a little draw of the alien commander (im NOT good okay <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
but with that you can see what i have in my mind ! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" />
<a href="http://www.cjb.net/images.html?fcec6.jpg" target="_blank">Hive with alien com.</a> (hl model viewer + Photoshop FTW)
merry Christmas everyone !!!
Similar things can also be quite different. Starcraft is full of these, and I think the "tubes" we talked about in the podcast are a good example of that as well. You could say that phase gates and the tubes are the same because they allow players to move between two points on the map quickly. However, they are also different:<ul><li>Travel between the two ends of the tubes will not be instantaneous</li><li>Both sides can use the tubes</li><li>There is an actual gameplay space between the ends of the tube where players can fight, etc.</li><li>Multiple players can travel through (and emerge from) a tube at the same time</li><li>The tubes will be difficult to destroy</li></ul>We think of the alien "commander" the same way. The role of the commander on both sides will be to spend the team's resources (the unified resource model was mentioned in the podcast) and provide support for the other players. Outside of that description, they may act totally differently. That's almost what the Gorge does in NS, except the resource model is a bit wonky (and no we're not removing the Gorge in NS2). Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.
We enjoy reading your feedback, so keep it up!
I would really like to have a different name for the alien commander! How about "hive mind"? - I mean, the hive will probably be the alien "CC."
Food for thought: One way to keep the commanding different is to make alien comm less permanent - there won't be one person commanding the whole game, but instead aliens would jump in and out of hive as the game progresses. It could work similar to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29" target="_blank">Borg collective</a> hive mind!
Anytime I see suggestions to make the teams similar, even if it's something as simple as gorge mines, I cringe. If anything you should be trying to make the teams more different, not similar.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I hear you and definitely agree. Let me be clear that the addition of the alien commander isn't definite (we must try it and see if it's better) and we would still be completely focused on keeping the teams unique. That is never going away. Even if the resource model needs to be unified between the two sides, we're not going to see the same tech on both sides with a different skin. The alien Comm would have totally different abilities or "spells" - not droppable medpacks and energy packs!
Think of it like Starcraft or Warcraft 3 - the basic resource model is the same but the sides are totally different. There can even be differences in how resources are gathered, but the asymmetry of a top-down strategy (NS1 marines) vs. a bottom-up strategy (NS1 aliens) presents so many difficulties that I don't think can be ever be fixed properly. An alien Comm could let us really go crazy adding new weapons, abilities and lifeforms later without it breaking the entire system (which in NS1 is quite fragile).
As everyone mentioned, the absolutely -stark- difference of playing was one of the things that charmed me. The amazing thing, is that NS actually kinda balanced the two which is -very- hard to do. 3.2 is the best version out yet, and I'm occasionally seeing new players joining servers (amazing after 4'ish years, that you still have -new- people joining the game for the very first time. I asked a few of them where they had 'found' the game, and almost all of them answered either 'from a friend' or 'from cruising steam'.
The critical differences between the aliens and marines were: commander/no commander, slow/fast, pooled res/individual res, building-bound upgrades/hive-bound upgrades, ranged weapons/melee weapons. To me, it seems you're merging the commander aspect, the slow/fast aspect and the res aspect. To me, that makes me kinda sad.
Indeed, while merging these teams into a closer related 'mix', you might be unravelling some of what made NS to unique. I'd take a serious look at these aspects, and make sure that the -core-, -fundamental- gameplay attributes stay as much in spirit as in reality. Certainly not the same reality, but rather just a different one. It just means that if you -merge- away some of the unique abilities (such as teleporting around through entryways to get to another place, or commander mode, or even the resource model), you need to add other elements that scream out "only on aliens can you do this" or "only on marines can you do this".
Only in this sense can you keep the storyline consistent. Much of the lore contains references to things 'alien' as marines wander around. Please make sure that you punctuate the differences as starkly as possible without removing gameplay functionality.
(I'm exagerating to make a point, but I do think it needs to be clearly said).
Max: I'd be very concerned about the environment that you warp people into between the two ends of the tunnel. Creating a fun environment out of what is essentially a very static, dry environment (it is a 'tunnel' for all intensive purposes), is what I'd be worried about. Also there are the intangibles related to it such as:
-how long is the tunnel compared to the map walking distance?
-how wide is it?
-does it have turns?
-does it have places to hide in?
-if it is straight then won't marines just shoot down a straight hallway and pwn everything?
-if so then wouldnt the tunnels be fairly useless and instead be gates for marines to use to infiltrate the alien base faster?
-can aliens close the tunnel quickly?
-is it always the same tunnel?
-if it is not the same tunnel then how many tunnels does the mapper to make?
-are the tunnels based on the map at all?
-how tall is it and would it allow jp'ers to properly fly in it?
-no matter what it looks like, won't it get tiring looking at it if it is used often at all?
I think the tunnels would be better served as a -small warp hole- that is not seen by marines (covered by infestation), which can only be used by the lerks, skulks and gorges. The difference between a small warp hole and a massive worm hole generator for alien vs marine combat, is very large.
1. Marines should not be able to use tubes. Can Aliens use PGs? No, and there's a damn good reason for that. Smacking up the base to force a beacon has very little risk if you can hop through a PG when the bacon goes down and then guard the other side of the PG. Similar situations also need to be avoided if Aliens are given portal technology. Then there's the problem of griefers or AFKs laming about in a tube. How intuitive is it for the new player to get ambushed, spawncamp-style when he enters an ALIEN structure?
2. Like someone mentioned, Onoses and Fade should not be able to use tubes. I'd be tempted to go as far as saying only Gorges should be able to use tubes, but just Skulks, Lerks and Gorges would be fine I suppose (just make the entrance size explain this). Aliens already dominate the Marines in response time and manoeuvrebility. The Fade is ludicrously powerful already in the hands of a good player, giving the Fade even quicker movement is out of the question. One option could be to allow the entrances/exits to increase in usefulness depending on the number of Hives. E.g. 1 Hive would mean Gorge-only transport, 2 Hives would mean Skulks, Lerks and Gorges, with 3 Hives meaning the aperture/threshold expands to allow a Fade (and maybe Onos) to pass through.
3. These tubes should be a big resource spend, maybe as much as a Hive for an entrance and exit, not less than 30 res (or the NS2 equivalent). This is essentially Hive teleport/MC teleport with more flexibility. It needs to be a gamble if used early as well as a reward for amassing lots of res. If the 'Hive-upgrading' method were used the res cost could be lowered to 20-30 res for an entrance and chamber, since the initial benefits if used early aren't as advantageous.
4. Do you really need a physical space for the tube? What's wrong with an Alien PG that uses an Onos-digest-esque 2D representation during transport to get the feel right? If you have a 3D space for the tube you will need to make entrances and exits which means complications with players blocking or hindering others, players getting lost, players deliberately hiding inside, dealing with what happens if the exit gets destroyed whilst inside, dealing with the question of whether projectiles/objects should be allowed to enter and exit the portals. I think all of this outweighs the benefits, being namely 'immersion'. It sounds like immersion for immersion's sake, which is an approach that has caused a lot of problems for NS in the past.
---
Next: <b>Alien Commander</b> - WTF? This brings the Aliens much closer to being very similar to the Marine side. One of NS's biggest advantages is that you have two dramatically different gametypes all rolled into one game. I'm sure the guys at Valve will have applauded this decision because it makes the game more casual, but you really need to bear in mind your established audience and the majority of your initial customer base is nowhere near casual and won't really like steps that take NS closer to the 'red vs blue' formula that exists in a lot of other games.
Then there's the fact that the 'Hive mind' gives the Aliens a very different feel to the Marines. Aliens communicate WAY more than Marines in a game, because each person has to assume a role. For Marines, (ignoring competitive play), you essentially have 'Chessmaster' and 'Pawn'. On Aliens you have someone going Lerk, some dropping RTs, some dropping chambers, one saving for Hive, one saving for Fade. This means that even a newbie can feel like he's playing an important part. I worry that an Alien commander will take away from this more collaborative and democratic side of NS. My favourite wins are always as Aliens, because you feel that you've really had to gel with other players to get something done. Please don't take that sensation away, it really doesn't exist in many other games.
The only way I can see this working is, as MasterPTG said, using a suggestive approach. Have a readyroom-voted Alien 'General', who assigns simple tasks/objectives to other team members as a way of helping players to learn the game. When you get an objective (e.g. 'Save up your resources to drop the Hive at $hive_location to help your team' or 'Spend your resources to evolve to a higher lifeform') you can reject it or you can accept it. The vote interface would appear somewhere visible, but not distracting or oversized on the screen. Upon completing a set objective you are rewarded with bonus scoreboard points depending on how important the objective was (e.g. dropping a Hive gives the most bonus points).
This way new players could be taught the game via an interactive tutorial that begins the very moment they boot up the game with other real players, and the Alien team has the option of assigning an authoritative figure to assign objectives and help others into the game. Importantly, this player cannot control the outcome of the game for any of the Alien players, so the Alien team still has the strongest teamwork and the most rewarding gameplay at pub level.
Some ideas for objectives:
<b>Save up your resources to drop the Hive at $hive_location to help your team</b>
Bonus points given for dropping the Hive in the correct location.
<b>Spend your resources to evolve to a higher lifeform</b>
Bonus points given for evolving to any higher lifeform (e.g. Lerk to Fade would be valid, Gorge to Skulk would not). Extra bonus points for staying alive for 60 seconds.
<b>Defend $map_location from Marine attack</b>
Bonus points given for entering map location within 20 seconds. Extra bonus points given per 5 seconds of staying in area until objective expires. Extra bonus points given for each Marine kill during the objective's duration period. Objective expires when Marines have been cleared from the location for a full 10 seconds.
<b>Use the Lerk's spores at $map_location to help scatter and injure Marines</b>
Bonus points given for every 100 damage dealt from spores. Extra bonus points given for each Marine spore kill during the objective's duration period. Objective expires when Marines have been cleared from the location for a full 10 seconds.
<b>Evolve to Gorge and build a $upgrade_chamber</b>
Bonus points for building the correct chamber. Bonus points for building additional chambers within 30 seconds of the first chamber dropped.
<b>Evolve to Gorge and heal your teammates!</b>
Bonus points for every 100HP healed within a 60 second period.
<b>Evolve to Gorge and heal the Hive at $hive_location!</b>
Bonus points for every 100HP healed until Hive reaches full HP.
Lastly you could always tie this idea into an achievements or stats page, which could also be shown on your profile on the forums as well as your Steam profile.
---
As for how this could work, I was thinking the 'General' would select the player(s) first from the scoreboard menu, then use the 'general menu' to assign an objective, with objectives listed by theme much like the radio commands are on the radio menu.
ok - so - if the <i>"alien commander"</i> is using all alien resources,
how do you build strucs? alien comm drops 'em?
how do you evolve? alien comm makes you evolve?
and on the other hand you're saying the gorge is not going to be removed - so what's the gorges job if he cant build because of a new resource model? heal and spit? im really confused on how that's going to turn out..
But I wonder that because NS2 is a combination of a FPS and a RTS that perhaps the commander is not the special units, he is just the RTS player and that the special units are just the guys on the ground, and the technologies the commander can use, like the PG and the DI-Tubes or DI-Tunnels (it’s a better word than tubes, but then tubes does scream body parts, maybe we should just call them DI-Arteries=DIAs).
I do however think the contrast should be kept. I mean the Kharaa are not so much the Aliens, they are the organic creatures. I mean if you think about the two teams, it currently breaks down like this:
<b>Marines: Metal, industrial, dictatorship (the commander), technology, ranged weapons, explosions, radio communication, drug induced enhancements, extra metal/unnatural armour…
Aliens: Organic, natural, freedom (the hive mind saying “it be cool if you went over there but you don’t have toâ€), growing items/plants (like chambers), bile and spines (natural substances), psychic communication (the hive mind), natural abilities and genetic improvements... </b>
If you think about it, the Marines are the industrial warriors, determined to build everything, wipe out nature and build a multi story car park on every plot of land not taken up by buildings or roads. And the Kharaa are the trapped dangerous animals; the “we love nature†militant hippies; the creatures that were lucky enough to be genetically blessed with abilities unknown to mankind.
And I believe this is the key part of NS, you have to make the point of the two sides, its not alien Vs marine, its nature Vs industrial. It’s just like Lord of the Rings. The marines are the Orcs and what not, burning down all the trees, trying to build up their industrial empire, and the Kharaa are the Ents trying to hold onto their way of life. Except it’s the other way around, the Kharaa have invaded somewhere where humans already live, and the Marines are just trying to get it back.
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->So basically I (and I hope all of you will agree with me on this one) think this is the most important part of the NS Universe, the contrast between the two teams.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> That’s why there is always a divide between people who like marines and people who like aliens. It’s part of what makes the community so special. You’re either Aliens or Marines. Once you find out which one you like, you love it. This is also the reason why most people so far are really iffy on the idea of an alien commander, because its starts to push the two teams together, making them similar, and loosing that unique team loyalty aspect.
It’s the kind of thing that RTSs or table top strategy games can get around by introducing large amounts of background and history to an army or race, but currently there is not enough background in NS to make this really work. Currently, the only real thing that Kharaa players have is the game, they have no idea where this race came from, or why they should support them, just that they like the freedom they get from it being on that team and don’t like being bossed around by a commander or having to wait for him/her to give them a weapon. (<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->GET SOME BACKGROUND ON DUDE!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->)
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Basically I believe (as a Kharaa player) that NS2 should emphasize these differences and the freedoms you get from being an Alien, the tube idea does this partly, and the team work you have to put in as a Marine. This should go deep into the background as well, even into the preset communications that I’m sure will be included, marines could say things like “For the TSA!†or “Commander, I am you Sword!†or “Commander, I am you Fist!†or “Commander, you are my eyes†or “Commander I am your sword, you are my wings!†emphasising their allegiance to the cause and to the commander. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
And in contrast the Kharaa should have abilities that emphasize that they are individual creatures, divided physically, but connected by one mind. Perhaps being able to send signals that almost force unruly players into line, maybe giving a whole team tunnel vision when an objective really needs to be completed, so they focus on a way point. Or being able to eat their own team and gaining the resources. Or setting sent trails that when needed could be turned into a “you must go this way†path, that would do annoying things if a player went off that path, much like a person with OCD would get if they didn’t do all the compulsive things they had to do. I think it might effect game play badly though... I guess I’m trying to come up with an idea that allows the Aliens to not have a set commander like the Marines, but is more like a democracy, I would say votes, but these would take too long. I guess the best option is allowing everyone to have sort of command powers, like a super gorge, so when you evolve into, lets say a gorge (just for simplicity) you gain a enhanced mini map and you can place way points and instruction to other players, you could also build the DIAs (tubes) doors and what not, just like I would expect a gorge to be able to. But unlike a commander you wouldn’t be in a chair or constantly looking down on the map. You would just open up the mini map and drop in way points when things needed doing. Also you wouldn’t be the only one capable of doing this, all gorges could do this, so basically everyone on your team (their might need to be a restriction on how many people can be a gorge, like a weapon restriction on servers/games, where only X amount of people can have the best weapons). Each waypoint would be marked up by a different colour or shape depending on who dropped it and would disappear after a set amount of minuets, so players who had stopped being gorge wouldn’t keep old waypoints up. It would also mean that gorge players would be more likely to be protected by stronger players while they set out strategies and such, but wouldn’t be constrained by a commanding role or area. This way would allow the Alien commander to more like an Alien Squad leader rather than a commander who has all the responsibility.
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->So yeah, basically, give gorge (or all players?) a detailed “hive mind†mini map, which they can add data to, like way points and attack/defence points, which disappear after a set amount of time or when a player dies. I think this would be the best option, rather than a set commander. It would keep the contrast between teams and allow for a commanding system that would improve teamwork and understanding from new players.
What do you think? Just an idea...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
...What ever happens I’m sure the UW will make the right choice for the game...
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1664135:date=Dec 15 2007, 09:00 PM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Dec 15 2007, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->using the word <u>alien-commander</u> and <u>new resource-model</u> in 1 setence is really scary..
ok - so - if the <i>"alien commander"</i> is using all alien resources,
how do you build strucs? alien comm drops 'em?
how do you evolve? alien comm makes you evolve?
and on the other hand you're saying the gorge is not going to be removed - so what's the gorges job if he cant build because of a new resource model? heal and spit? im really confused on how that's going to turn out..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
c0ke, I think what they are saying is they want to try out alien commander as a way of binding the kharaa together, and helping new players understand/learn the two teams. I imagine that the Alien commander won't do as much as the marine commander, if they have one at all. I assume they are keeping the Gorge as a builder, but that perhaps the commander will tell him where to build, or give him the resources to build. I can't see them having you being forced to evolve into set creatures by the Commander, this would too similar to the Marines, unless you come back as that same creature again, which wouldn't be so bad, but it would just be the same as Marines. But perhaps the commander might dish out how many resources you get, maybe?? Who knows? But I think it's safe to say that Gorge will still be a builder, just how much of control he'll have, who knows; I hope he doesn't change too much I would hate him to just become a welder for the aliens. <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Hopefully they will tell us more next week.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I'm also a little concerned that the way the tubes bind far away areas of map geometry will be very confusing in terms of map layout. I don't think you want "portal-like" transitions in the entrances and exits.
Agree! I would miss that... If anything more ways to communicate is the option, hence my idea of place-able way points on mini map for Alien team.
I think that's what makes NS so unique. Few other games even attempt to do something like it because a top down vs a bottom up team is so difficult to do. The audacity and triumph of NS is that it pulls it off. No matter how different the Starcraft teams or Warcraft III teams are, I know exactly what I'm doing when a game starts: I'm going to build units to destroy my enemy, build counters to the units they build, and try to secure the resources. I'm going to do this the exact same way whether I'm playing Undead, Night Elf, Humans, or Orcs. Sure, if I'm Undead I'll use a different strategy than I would if I was Night Elves, but the difference is just in the units, not in the fundamentals. NS is combat between fundamentals: the marines and the aliens. If you change both teams to be top down, it might be easier to balance, but that gets rid of the deepest difference between the two teams and makes it just a question of "well the aliens generally use melee weapons and have lots of special abilities, but the marines use guns and stick together more." That's nothing special. That's just Gloom or something. You can swap around weapons and movement and everything all you want, but at the end if you get rid of the alien "hive mind" mentality then they're just marines that require different twitch skills.
The reason why I loved NS at the first touch and why Im still playing it is the assymetric gameplay (big surprise) but also the ressource system. NS 3.2 is not only different between alien and marine by different way of moving, lifeforms, upgrades etc etc but also by the ressource managment.
On one side we have marines with a comm who control those ressources on whatever his team needs to achieve their goal, and on the other side you have aliens who control their own ressources on whatever they need to help their team to achieve their goal.
And so, when Im hearing about an alien commander Im a bit scared. Of course, when I picture an alien comm, I don't see a marine comm like with button, tech tree and stuff but then I see this <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although we are considering a top-down view for the alien commander, that's not a necessity for that role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I don't understand this right, but do you want the alien comm to have the same view as the marine view ?
I mean, it doesn't even fit with this NS story. Alien are suppose to be more fleshlike, use organic stuff and not meca-comm-nano-tech.
As I see it it's like one guy who can participate a bit much on the field to organise his teammates. Like pheromone that he could send somewhere on the map to warn his little subject or to gather them; or give him, for a limited time, the use of his third ability without the 2nd hive or something like that. Or even an entity controled by something bigger (not a player).
But hey, can't really make up your mind before you created it right ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
MC teleportation without hives, and separate from upgrade chambers - awesome, should have been included in NS several versions ago.
I don't see the Alien commander being anything remotely like the Marine commander. Where the Marine commander is pretty much the puppet master and either makes or breaks the Marine team, the Alien commander is something completely different.
The Alien commander could be a sort of a <i>super</i> life-form, the ultimate product of the evolutionary chain of the Kharaa, much more evolved than it's brethren in both physical and mental prowess, actively participating in the game.
Imagine a Kharaa that vaguely resembles a Fade in form, but is able to turn invisible at will, can scale walls of the infestated hallways with blinding speed, makes the infestation grow vigurously where-ever it goes and can snatch unsuspecting marines, taking them to where-ever it pleases through the tunnels which it creates at will. Last but not least, is entirely un-killable as long as it stays on the infestation. Upon death it would simply dissapate in to a bacterial mass and re-appear at the nearest Hive.
... Okay, perhaps I got a bit carried away, but my point stands. The Alien commander can be something entirely different than the Marine counter-part and IMO it poses great potential. Thumbs up for that.
The alien team could only have one tunnel at a time (per hive). The alien commander can change / remove the points as long as there is infestation. The tunnel itself is made by bending space around to the inside of the hive so when an alien enters the tunnel it is really located within the hive. The skin inside the hive is almost like a callus and any marines inside attempting to damage the hive would have a harder time doing damage. However they can cut the skin with a knife opening up soft fleshy areas. The callus skin would have to be held by one marine while the others do damage. When a marine enters the tunnel the hive warns the aliens about the marine and starts excreting an acid that does a small amount of damage over time. If the alien commander removes both entrances to the tunnel then all aliens inside can leave through a small opening that is only there when the entrances aren't up. They could also choose to stay inside and for an ambush.
Aliens inside the tunnel get a healing benefit. If there are aliens inside the tunnel and the entrances are removed and the alien commander is setting up an ambush at a place with infestation the alien commander could create a two sided ambush placing the entrances on two sides of the room allowing the aliens inside the chance to pick where they wish to exit from. The tunnel itself has a set size no matter the distances it covers since the hive bends spacese.
Marines can close a tunnel by cutting around the outside of an entrance and welding the flesh together. This causes the hive a small amount of damage and some time is required for the hive to heal the now closed end. So that end of the tunnel cant be used until it is fixed. If marines are inside the tunnel and the alien commander removes the entrances they can stay and be eaten by the acid (or attempt to finish off the hive) or they can leave using the small exit that opens up.
Anything that dies within the tunnel of the hive is absorbed by the hive healing it instantly. The more mass that is absorbed the more the hive is healed. So if a skulk dies the over health gain is small. If a gorge or human dies its larger.
Thats it, it might be overly complex but I think it sounds pretty cool.
Aliens: Organic, natural, freedom (the hive mind saying “it be cool if you went over there but you don’t have toâ€), growing items/plants (like chambers), bile and spines (natural substances), psychic communication (the hive mind), natural abilities and genetic improvements... </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A very good, but <i>extremely long</i> post, INKEDOUT. I completely agree with your classification of aliens and marines and would like the spirit to continue when developing the hive mind (=alien comm). One thing i propose is to avoid having one alien leader for the entire game.
Democratic Alien Research:
I would like to see a democratic/organic selection of hive research. Unlike the marine comm who decides: Armor 1 will be researched, each player would be able to select what area would receive greater funding: 5 aliens would choose armor and 1 would choose weapons development. Since it's always best to quickly research an upgrade and then switch, the one player might decide to switch and choose armor development as well to follow the team. Some people forget to choose or don't know what's best to upgrade, so they don't vote and let others, who do vote, decide for them.
(i think the Borg in StarTrek would be a good example: each member is interfaced with everyone else and has some say, yet as a whole, the race moves into one direction together. There's also no need for a leader)
Of course, this system might be a complete failure if aliens don't agree to cooperate.
Hive mind's role:
Alien playing as hive-mind would work differently from marine comm: he would be able to 1) give aliens bonuses using "spells," 2) keep track and affect the infestation spread and 3) look for marines in alien territory. Hive-mind would be more of a supportive role (similar to comm's med-packs, ammo, and the new spells). I would imagine that it would be possible to have more hive-minds than one (especially when there are 2 hives, but possibly even at 1 hive)
Universal res:
The new <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418" target="_blank">marine weapon distribution system</a> is a step in aliens' direction: marines would be able to choose the weapon they'd like to use, instead of being given one by the comm. I think, similarly, the aliens could make a step towards marines' resource model. A fraction of all res gained would go towards the alien pool and used for upgrades: for example, 60% of all res goes towards individual alien forms, while 40% goes into the hive pool.
The alien side could use a few AI things as well, but not nearly as much. Perhaps if gorges could "pop out" a weak mini-gorge to sit in a general area and heal stuff, so that occasional attacks don't devastate an outpost. This would remove the micromanaging gorges sometimes have to do to keep their side winning. Gorges should be spending more of their effort on the very back line, constructing new hives, or very frontline stuff, such as battle gorging. 8) Moreover, minor AI in alien structures would be a good idea, and better fit in with the "mood" of the Kharaa side. The "even their structures think" would add to the already spooky/frightening atmosphere of playing as a marine.
Alien commander: Not a good idea, not as you think of it. But done in a different way, it could. Part of the experience of NS is two very different sides, with Marines being autocratic, the commander being the source of all strategy, and the aliens being more like a "perfect anarchy", with free communication between all of them, everyone listening to everyone else, and just saying "someone get over to *". Thus, aliens are quicker to figure things out and respond to threats, but often not able to respond with the same amount of force... It's a very different kind of thinking, the aliens really do form a social Hive Mind when they play. So I suppose the question is how to capitalize on this, rather than how to change it. Thus, I would propose that all gorges have the ability to quickly go into a lesser commander mode, where they could manage a few small matters more easily than through their own unit's eyes. (And perhaps they could be in a weak protective cocoon when they do so?) I'm not exactly sure what it would be for, as aliens can order themselves around already - and they do - but perhaps it could give them a better view about how the game is currently going, and where units and structures might be needed, so they could point this out over voicechat or perhaps go there themselves. Or perhaps they could order around lesser alien lifeforms (read: AI), change structure priorities (perhaps offense towers should focus on hitting harder rather than faster? or perhaps res towers should focus less on gathering res and slightly more on self-healing?). Perhaps gorges could set access controls on structures through command mode, so that any skulk could change properties, or only other gorges, or only the gorge who built it. In short, you want to work with the anarchy or direct democracy mood that playing as an alien gives, not change it.
Speaking of gorges, part of the current problems with being a career gorge in the current version is gorges don't have enough res to do everything they need to. I know in older versions of NS, gorges were given more res directly, but this was very open to abuse, as some would gorge just to get a bit more personal resources for turning into higher lifeforms. Perhaps this problem could be solved in NS2 by having both personal resources, and a "pool" that could be drawn from specifically to build structures, for gorges that had long ago run out of resources when the built those chambers and hive. If non-gorges could "donate" to the pool easily, that would work into the mood of playing the alien side as well. It's actually the exact opposite of my idea for the NS2 Marine resource model, where the commander could allocate resources from the general pool to specific players for quick purchase of equipment. Perhaps on the marine side, the commander can opt to either have everyone have a specific item when they spawn in (for example, everyone gets a jetpack), and/or perhaps choose their own weapon (I want a shotgun, not a HMG!!). But ultimately, the commander decides how much of the pool the player-unit gets. And another thing, the idea of marines getting res for dead aliens is stupid. Stop it. The reverse is a good idea, however. Skulks should be as bold as possible in early game, I say. 8)
Tunnels: Good idea, but I don't think the larger two lifeforms should have access, at least not without an upgrade. And I'm not sure how exactly this should be implemented. Basically, you don't want aliens to be like marines, but they need some similar capabilities. You don't want tunnels to be the same as phase gates. Perhaps if the distance of the flesh hallway was 1/2 or 1/4 of the real distance (if it were a straight line) between the places? MCs would be more useful, as they always get you to a hive, but perhaps tunnels could be made in such a way that they would be great in specific situations. It has a lot of potential, but you'd have to make it "different".
Oh, and something from the previous podcasts, welding. You want to make everything as transparent to the map-maker as possible. Perhaps if "weld lines" could easily be added to terrain and doors? Pre-generated objects (such as an average door) could have weld-lines built in, but the map-maker should be able to easily and quickly make a particular door unweldable. Similarly, if you want terrain to be "destructible" (such as a bridge), one could make "death lines" a part of it, to determine how it would fall apart if sufficient damage was done to it. But keep triggers a part of the equation, so if the map-maker can think of a specific event that happens if the bridge falls apart, it could occur.
Basically, you want to do to RTS/FPS and just FPS games what StarCraft and WarCraft III did to RTSs: make it easy to do whatever the map-maker wants, going well beyond what the game creator intended. Of course, I'm sure you already knew that. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lerk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::lerk::" border="0" alt="lerk.gif" />
(offtopic: the archives feature on the blog for the last few months is broken, making it hard to look up old podcasts and blog posts)
MC teleportation without hives, and separate from upgrade chambers - awesome, should have been included in NS several versions ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
Need to know more about this alien commander. I certainly hope he won't be commanding from a top down perspective, well maybe temporarily, I'd live with that.
Welding downtime: I dont have any problems with it. It's part of the game doing "boring" stuff to get something accomplished for the team, and if your team is winnign because you're building/killing rts it can be very satisfying.
Alien commander: As many others I'm very sceptical and probably dont want to see it. Of course, the same resource model on both side would make it a lot easier, but I have confidence in you and the playtesters that the current system can be kept and balanced in NS2 <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Currently I only think the gorges need some more options/fuctiones, so they have less "down-time"
Tubes: Hmm.. even after your responses I'm still not too sure how much they would differ from PGs. Aliens already got the speed advantage, why should they now be able to move en masse from one part of the map to another (just speculation here, seeing how noone knows who the DI system will really work). But I agree that it can be great for the atmosphere.
Random locations: Should be tested, although being a clan-player, I see some balancing issues with this idea
Weld-bot: Like it, although it should be kept to a minimum AI imo (can only do stuff like following)
Hope I wasn't too negative <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Keep up the good work!
If you guys have played 'Tyrian', you'll know what I'm thinking of. In Tyrian you can get 'sidekicks' that float around your ship, firing weapons. I can imagine the weldbots being like that, except they weld for you. Maybe you could purchase different kinds of bots too, like one that does fire a very weak weapon. That may be quite cool. Maybe even one that adminsters small health boosts periodically, only restoring say 5 health every 5/10 seconds.
The possibilities are endless, but the idea of AI-controlled bots, independant of the player yet still helping the team, is brilliant. You could even have bots that float around the base, welding things and/or acting as mobile, but very weak, sentry turrets.
I don't know, just throwing some ideas out there. Though the idea of a bot with a weak machine gun built in sounds really cool to me, though it'd need to be balanced. I have this image of a Marine running out of the Marine Start (heading right) with a bot hovering around him/her.
Any naturally superior lifeform:
- can dominate the (early) game
- promotes selfish, rambo-esque play
- creates animosity between the player who gets to play as the superalien and the players who don't
- requires experience to get the most out of it, so is not newbie-friendly
- doesn't come with any risk for the Aliens
Stronger lifeforms need to be a reward and they need to represent a strategic decision. E.g. a Fade costs the same as a Hive, to choose a Hive1 Fade you make the strategic gambit that you will be able to make as much of a difference as a building Hive would. A superalien does not represent any sort of sacrifice at all.
Before you try to compare it to the Commander, remember that the Commander cannot deal direct damage, he can only deal passive damage via Elec and Turrets and through a third-party, his Marines. His abilities are supportive and instructional. He cannot move, and can be cornered in his CC if his team becomes cut off from the base. If he leaves the CC he loses all his Commander abilities and becomes a Marine. Your superalien has none of these drawbacks.
[Edit] One last thing:
If you really want to play Commander vs. Commander, surely you can just play MvM?
As far as a super-lifefrom alien commander, If you add the restriction that it cant move off DI, then
a) the early game would be protected.
b) The superlifeform wouldnt be just ramboing (as once it hits the point that it can move around alot, the potenital for its death becomes larger and it would probably want to only go if a hive or something important was under attack)
c) Alot of players wouldnt want to play something that just sits around most of the game, and as such wouldnt care about becoming the alien commander
d) While Im sure that it would require a bit of experance to do well, As aliens arnt as bound to thier commander as marines are even with a bad alien commander the alien team could still win.
e) Clearly there would have to be some risk, such as when the commander dies it has to have enough res to come back (and waits around dead till it has 40-50 res)
Also I think it would solve the problem of the early game spawn camping by marines (once mid/late game hits, no marine should be able to spawn camp for long before a fade or onos shows up). Although there would still need to be some way for the alien commander to affect people far away from itsself (if only in a minor way), so that it can do things in the early game and not get board.
Tunnels: Cool idea! I got the impression from the podcast that the players wouldn't find it obvious that they were stepping through portals? As in these tunnels look like a natural hole in the wall, you walk in, come out the other side and go "wtf, how did I get here so fast?". If that is the general gist of it, then I'm all for it. What I'm picturing is similar in dimensions to the HL2:EP2 ant-lion tunnels: Mostly crawl-spaces with taller rooms here and there, except that the tunnels would undulate quite a bit to hinder marine sight-lines. The tunnels could even be made slippery and hard to move on for non-alien players...
Alien Commander: Tentative yes. I would not like to see a traditional top-down alien commander, but the idea of an alien super-lifeform sounds like it has potential. It would indeed make it very different from the stationary command chair! I've been wondering about the possibility of making this lifeform a part of the DI. Specifically, the commander would be the "head" and the rest of the DI would be the "body". The alien commander would be tethered to the DI, but able to influence the spread of it, with commander's strengths and abilities tied directly into the amount of nearby DI.
EDIT: In reading someone else's post, I saw a hint of something that might be cool: Pheromones as the main tool for alien commanding! Instead of high-tech HUD overlays, alien commands could be relayed via scents/etc. There would be no selecting of alien players by the comm, only a pheromone waypoint set down, with only nearby players being notified by the game. Perhaps there could even be a reward system for certain commands (eg, "build this structure here, and earn 50% of its build cost" "guard this area, and receive this temporary buff for as long as you remain there"). In this way, the alien commander would more feel coercive than commanding.
As far as a super-lifefrom alien commander, If you add the restriction that it cant move off DI, then
a) the early game would be protected.
b) The superlifeform wouldnt be just ramboing (as once it hits the point that it can move around alot, the potenital for its death becomes larger and it would probably want to only go if a hive or something important was under attack)
c) Alot of players wouldnt want to play something that just sits around most of the game, and as such wouldnt care about becoming the alien commander
d) While Im sure that it would require a bit of experance to do well, As aliens arnt as bound to thier commander as marines are even with a bad alien commander the alien team could still win.
e) Clearly there would have to be some risk, such as when the commander dies it has to have enough res to come back (and waits around dead till it has 40-50 res)
Also I think it would solve the problem of the early game spawn camping by marines (once mid/late game hits, no marine should be able to spawn camp for long before a fade or onos shows up). Although there would still need to be some way for the alien commander to affect people far away from itsself (if only in a minor way), so that it can do things in the early game and not get board.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) = wrong, just like the Marines commander isn't protected unless someone is at base protecting them.
b) = wrong, people would Rambo, and then get stuck at a point where the DI runs out and then probably get shot by a marine. People still Rambo as a commander in BF2, then people get annoyed with them and mutiny against them.
c) = this is why the whole idea of a alien commander is generally a bad one, because if you want to play a commander and "play something that just sits around most of the game" you can go on the marines team.
d) = they would be bound to their commander as much as the Marines if they had one.
e) = and during this time the aliens would loose... or at least be at greater risk of loosing... that’s no fun.
“Also...†= There is nothing wrong with Marines “Spawn Camping†in NS, they have to build stuff, it’s what they do in the early game (like all of the first min, if that). Saying Marines spawn camping is in some way wrong, is like saying CT’s shouldn’t camp a bomb site in CS:S; just silly and clearly poor tactics. If marines started to run out and attack an alien commander, the chances are that either an alien rush would wipe out their chair and commander before they get to the aliens commander (because skulks are way faster than Marines). Or they will go and attack, start to die from skulks and then have to run back to build IPs for those who have died. It’s just poor tactics to suggest that some marines shouldn’t stay in base for the first 10-20 seconds and build stuff. Also one marine is always going to be in base for the first min or so, just to get stuff built and protect the commander. None of those marines are camping in spawn they are doing important things; just like CT’s “camping†at a bomb site in CS:S.
I think the only option for the aliens is a democratic one. Votes, multiple "commanders", place-able waypoints for gorges, pheromones/scents, etc., whatever the option is I know that I don’t want the aliens commander to be just a Marine commander, stuck in one place giving orders and building structures. There should be contrast between the two teams. The more I read peoples alternative ideas, the less I want a standard "look down on the battlefield and decide things for the team" commander. The two teams should be extremely different in how orders are given out and how res is spent.
One of the greatest things about NS is the contrast between the two teams, the fact that there is a divide between the NS community about which side they like more; you either love aliens or marines (or you haven’t played enough to decided). The fact that everything is different about the teams, one is all about ranged weapons, industrial and military command structures; the other is about close combat, organic and an uncontrolled nature. This is very important to the game structure, I hope the team at UW remember this when they play test the game and think about an alien commander.
I worry that the teams are going to become too similar and a bit dull, catering to those who can’t handle the uncontrolled nature of the alien team; but I’m sure (and I hope) I’m wrong...
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=1664237:date=Dec 16 2007, 04:59 PM:name=Revenge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revenge @ Dec 16 2007, 04:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: In reading someone else's post, I saw a hint of something that might be cool: Pheromones as the main tool for alien commanding! Instead of high-tech HUD overlays, alien commands could be relayed via scents/etc. There would be no selecting of alien players by the comm, only a pheromone waypoint set down, with only nearby players being notified by the game. Perhaps there could even be a reward system for certain commands (eg, "build this structure here, and earn 50% of its build cost" "guard this area, and receive this temporary buff for as long as you remain there"). In this way, the alien commander would more feel coercive than commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea, rewarding the Aliens for doing things and perhaps telling them what they are gaining by doing it.