<!--quoteo(post=1664441:date=Dec 17 2007, 08:20 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Dec 17 2007, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Tubes"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I like it. I like it a lot.
Though I personally envision at as such: the player can move through other players(and buildings) while... molten, and moves at least twice as fast. Also, even non-skulk classes get wall-climbing abilities while, so if the infestation has spread up above a pipe, you can emerge out of the goop on top of the pipe, raring to go!
You didn't actually say it, but perhaps it was kind of implied that the player could not leave the infestation while submerged?
<!--quoteo(post=1664501:date=Dec 17 2007, 08:33 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 17 2007, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like it. I like it a lot.
Though I personally envision at as such: the player can move through other players(and buildings) while... molten, and moves at least twice as fast. Also, even non-skulk classes get wall-climbing abilities while, so if the infestation has spread up above a pipe, you can emerge out of the goop on top of the pipe, raring to go!
You didn't actually say it, but perhaps it was kind of implied that the player could not leave the infestation while submerged?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is exactly right. The player can move through any players/buildings/marines while in this "molten" state. Just not map geometry. I like the idea of a speed boost.
The player cannot leave the infestation except by way of a entrance that must be built by a gorge.
I will edit my post to clarify. thanks.
"molten" is a good word <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
to something completely different, when are we going to see that clip that was promised? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> (if it's up already, I can't find it)
<!--quoteo(post=1664441:date=Dec 17 2007, 07:20 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Dec 17 2007, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Tubes"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think that the idea of hallways whether made in map or dynamically is a <b><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->complicated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>* idea. It is just <u>way too much work</u> for the Devs and will <i><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->possibly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>* be limiting to gameplay as well as game performance. *<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->edited for clarity<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I would like to suggest another idea that has not been mentioned and is <b>much easier</b> to implement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Tubes would work like this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
When a player enters a tube, he <u><b>stays right where he is</b></u> in the map. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Instead of being teleported to some hallway or another place on the map, the player is changed into Dynamic Infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Let me explain what "Changed into Dynamic Infestation" means...
<b>The player is not actually changed into anything.</b> That is just the concept. What actually happens is the player is made invisible and his view of the map changes to show that he is inside the DI. (imagine something similar to alien flashlight view) Source has many effects that can make the screen change color, look blurred, etc. The player would be able to tell that he is in DI and perhaps it could have special sound effects too. The player can run along in the hallway where he was before he entered the DI. The player doesn't actually go anywhere, he just "changes". The player becomes like a ghost. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><i>The player can move through any players/buildings/marines while in this "molten" state. Just not map geometry.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->* He can still see marines and the map like normal, but he cannot interact with anything unless he leaves through another tube entrance/exit. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><i>This is not a instant transport to another part of the map like suggested in some other posts or like movement chambers. The alien still has to run at normal speeds wherever it is he wants to go.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->*
This idea keeps alien movement different from marines completely. Aliens can use the DI to move around safely in their territory. It also works wonders for ambushing as a whole group of skulks could wait in the DI and then suddenly appear and attack without warning. It would also be a safe haven to escape to to heal. Or it could also be a prison if marines destroy your entrance.
<!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro-->To sum things up: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Aliens are fast and should not have "Phase gates" Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory. <!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Some Detail Points:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> -Gorges can make tube entrys anywhere on the DI and maybe can even make exits while inside the DI.(there could also be a limit on entrances) -Only small aliens can use the tubes. -Aliens can only enter through entrys that are built by a gorge. -Marines can destroy the entry points. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->edited<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->EmpV wins. This would be an excellent implementation of the tubes idea that doesn't overbalance things.
Tubes, Great idea, as for the idea about the marines ability to travel inside thats a good idea aswell, but i doubt the aliens want marines using their tunnles, heres an idea, enable the construction of some sort of defense inside the tube (optional and time consuming to make sure that there not easily placed and over used), such as teeth which chew up any unwanted visitors.
Are you pulled along in much the same way as our esophagus works? or do you crawl along inside? that would mean it would be up to the marine to make the choice, zooming along a biological tube and then seeing a ring of teeth up ahead you know the desicion you made was the wrong one and shortly after are mangled into a pulp... =)
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
edited December 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1664303:date=Dec 16 2007, 06:49 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Dec 16 2007, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the tubes are more like the p0rtal gun, except you don't instantly appear in the other area, there is a limbo area that connects the two portals with a short tunnel i spose. I think it would be a great counter to marines welding up doors.
as for the alien commander i'm not convinced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664360:date=Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much how we were thinking about implementing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is <b>exactly</b> what I already created in my custom NS1 map! Never released it though, the layout was shizz. Btw, BABBLERS!
This topic is basicly a I&S thread now <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
Just listened to the podcast and I also don't like the idea of an RTS-mode alien commander. The whole draw of NS was always the major asymmetry between the two teams, despite the balance challenges it presented. I'm okay with giving aliens a leader so their command and res structure can be similar to marines, but IMHO it should be a life form. Maybe even some sort of invincible observer, so it's the same idea as a commander but it has to actually reside in the map. I'm imagining something like an abstract representation of the sentient hivemind in playable form, like a detached perspective through which a player controls the infestation, resources and structures. Maybe this alien comm could "swim" through the empty space in the map like a spectator, but can't actually enter the rooms, and instead can only come out where there's dynamic infestation. You could even show a sinister eye moving around in the wall when he's looking into a room. It would be his job to spread the infestation to places so he could drop nodes, structures, tunnels, etc.
Maybe a little too I&S, but you guys know that sounds awesome compared to just playing Zerg in Starcraft <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
the alien comm could also be in ALL aliens. like he's in alien-spectate mode all the time. and from this view he is interacting with his special command-interface
this would also requier teamplay, coordination and communication. just an idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
some days ago after reading podcast 14 i posted this in Idea and suggestion section but no reply... (because its a bad idea OR people dont care <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
so what do you think about that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
Now, let me get this straight. The plan with the alien commander is to unify the resource model. You're talking about the difference between distributing and pooling resources, correct? So, if marines will be able to 'purchase' their own weapons at the armory, wouldn't that mean they're distributed their own resources similarly to the alien side? Perhaps this is where you can unify them, not by making aliens like the marine resource model, but meeting half-way since you already have the new armory planned.
There's also the issue of removing one extra alien player to be the commander. Where would that extra player come from if we still have Gorges? That's one less combat player or there's one less Gorge on the field healing. It starts to make the Gorge sound redundant, depending on the abilities you give the commander.
Essentially, I'd like to know how the new marine resource model would work with purchasing before I can start speculating.
(apologies if this has been talked about before... my time is spread thin these days)
K, a lot of great stuff being thrown down.. the king gorg suggestion, even though it made me giggle, could be some sorta replacement for an alien "overmind" if thats the desired direction ns2 is going in.
But check out my idea, instead of giving a single alien a king/commander position, a <u>ONE FOR ALL</u> attitude (similar to marine structure), try incorporating the original <u>ALL FOR ONE</u> game play that is unique to the aliens within the new feature of the hive-mind. What about giving the aliens this new feature in which only gorgs could access. Multiple gorgs would have the ability to "resonate" with the hive mind, accessing the overview mode. To the extent of power, time use,and utility of each "resonating" gorg would be completely formed around play testing. I think there could two separate and equally important roles the gorg could play, and this would help stray from monotony.. finding balance between playing gorg and "resonating". And I know you two were talking about "down time" and "up time", maybe going into the comm mode for the gorgs could be down time that would make healing on the front lines that much better. It would in the best case make the alien side that much more dynamic.
This would most likely add confusion... but each gorg could be partitioned options of the commander menu. Its really up in the air.
And that's why we can't let it splat.
I do like the hive-mind idea because it gives you access to new game play ideas that you couldn't get to otherwise. But much of the community has spoken in caution.. Tweaking with the function/role of the hive-mind could end up being one of the more rewarding game play experiences for ns2. GL GL GL!!!
Its hard to say if you like it or not. I need more information before I can really decide. I heared good pro's and cons. I hope some more info on the new alien commander play style will come soon. It better be good ^_^
So many mentions about me I thought I'd make an appearance <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ("res")
I think I'm one to put my faith in the developers designers that they will bring us a fun game.. Less 'QQ' about Alien Commander also <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Hive Mind sounds a bit too close to SC also, so that kind of name might get canned.
The most important in NS2 is dont repeat stupid work since 1.0 to 3.2 Open PG´s failed, comunitary alien res failed...
The best points to fix in NS2 could be:
- Alien side:
Better skills, for melee play(movement was an excelent idea, that kind of things must be improved for ns2). Animal habilities like rage, screams, bonus by each attacking alien.The most important is improve the combat mode in aliens.More ideas like: chameleon skin, ultraspeed attack(in 1 sec, alien got the max of speed, to get ambushes)
Normal gameplay, no AI help, basic basic game info, really funny to play(without need complex skills like bunnyjumping, with some special habilities to hardcore gamers and clanners).
Main weapon: environment, skill with habilities(hard to play for begginers but lethal for experts), bonus melee, classes Weak in: Organization, first 4-5 min of the game, hard to improve max skill with habilities.
- Marine side:
Assisted gameplay with lot of info. AI bot to weld(like a flying robot, look c&c3).More Complex techtree, more easy command soldiers(lot of hotkeys, tools to define groups by?), time critical for that side.Players with better info about the game, with assisted info(can be upgraded by lvl) about attacked RT´s, Radio transmisions(with max distance for the comunications).
Main weapon: info, AI, Commander, gameplay like other shooter. Weak in: Slow, no specialist classes until 5+ min, problems with environment.
In Resume, that is a scheme like ns1 but they must be improved that 1/3 new in:
- Lifeforms habilities. - Marine Comunications (with his techtree) - Dynamic Infestation with change in environment(lights off, hard to comunicate, impossible medding...).
And improve:
- Marine commander system. - Gorge class.
And remember, dont repeat the work of 5 years!!!! You made a nice work with that 3.2 version.Its a really balanced version and you only should walk in the same direction without forget side´s identity.
Just to vent... it seems like alot of these posts are saying they don't want NS2 to be new or different. Things like having to learn new playstyles or elements that effect the "team structure" of NS1... they want the same damned thing with "new abilities" and "flamethrowers."
In my opinion that doesn't make a sequel to a game, that makes an expansion pack.
Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1664621:date=Dec 19 2007, 02:28 PM:name=John Top)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John Top @ Dec 19 2007, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to vent... it seems like alot of these posts are saying they don't want NS2 to be new or different. Things like having to learn new playstyles or elements that effect the "team structure" of NS1... they want the same damned thing with "new abilities" and "flamethrowers."
In my opinion that doesn't make a sequel to a game, that makes an expansion pack.
Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe, but asymmetric gameplay is one of the "pillars of NS2" and an alien commander would remove a difference between the two teams on a very basic level. DI is very exciting and new and definitely not "Natural Selection: 3.2+". The I&S forum is full of threads about DI and DW. Change is good, but the hivesight/hivemind of the kharaa is one of the major unique features of NS and many people want in the "1/3 improved" or even the "1/3 the same" column.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its true. CS and DOD were complete failures when they went retail onto Source. Even when they had SO MUCH new content.
I think the commander alien is one of the biggest mistakes... The aliens dont need something liek a brainbug... they are like ants! Everyone knows what to do they comunnicate with each other.
Well the only thing i would change is a poll whos building hive/which chamber first/who can go fade
<!--quoteo(post=1664639:date=Dec 19 2007, 05:53 PM:name=StixNStonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StixNStonz @ Dec 19 2007, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its true. CS and DOD were complete failures when they went retail onto Source. Even when they had SO MUCH new content.
/rolls eyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/rolls eyes
You failed to acknowledge that CS and DOD were retail way before source. Yes, CS and DOD were mods before source but Charlie has stated numerous times that NS2 is going to be different from NS the mod.
NS2 is a different game with the same pillars. Yes, an alien commander mode similar to the marine commander mode would be breaking that barrier. However, what I think people are failing to do is think outside their comfort zone of either a FPS play (first person) or RTS management (birds eye) and not think about how the aliens can have a completely unique "Queen" that is dependent on the team and the hivemind, instead of the team depending on her, and being able to use that individual class as a new structure for which the aliens have to work together to build up, and instead of being ordered to do things, the rest of the team is doing the ordering.
<!--quoteo(post=1664650:date=Dec 19 2007, 07:05 PM:name=2aimless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2aimless @ Dec 19 2007, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the commander alien is one of the biggest mistakes... The aliens dont need something liek a brainbug... they are like ants! Everyone knows what to do they comunnicate with each other.
Well the only thing i would change is a poll whos building hive/which chamber first/who can go fade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there would be nothing cooler then some tentacles bursting out of the wall, the marine would have to grenade, flame etc them. It could be used offensivily too simply attack marines, or to stop them from feeling a wall of OC's etc. alien players could even jump out of that tentacle hole while its open like a type of phase gate maybe
or how about an eye of sauran style ability for either of the commanders, so that the players can see if the commander is watching them (only visible to commanders team) <img src="http://www.timeofwar.com/bfme/images/histoire/bfme2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1664536:date=Dec 18 2007, 07:32 PM:name=krod)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(krod @ Dec 18 2007, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The tube idea is BRILLIANT!
But, how will this effect the minimap?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't I imagine, maybe it would on the Aliens team, but not on the marines team, as according to the podcast they imagine it as not being able to be seen by Marine commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1664574:date=Dec 19 2007, 08:04 AM:name=smee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(smee @ Dec 19 2007, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->K, a lot of great stuff being thrown down.. the king gorg suggestion, even though it made me giggle, could be some sorta replacement for an alien "overmind" if thats the desired direction ns2 is going in. But check out my idea, instead of giving a single alien a king/commander position, a <u>ONE FOR ALL</u> attitude (similar to marine structure), try incorporating the original <u>ALL FOR ONE</u> game play that is unique to the aliens within the new feature of the hive-mind. What about giving the aliens this new feature in which only gorgs could access. Multiple gorgs would have the ability to "resonate" with the hive mind, accessing the overview mode. To the extent of power, time use,and utility of each "resonating" gorg would be completely formed around play testing. I think there could two separate and equally important roles the gorg could play, and this would help stray from monotony.. finding balance between playing gorg and "resonating". And I know you two were talking about "down time" and "up time", maybe going into the comm mode for the gorgs could be down time that would make healing on the front lines that much better. It would in the best case make the alien side that much more dynamic.
This would most likely add confusion... but each gorg could be partitioned options of the commander menu. Its really up in the air.
And that's why we can't let it splat.
I do like the hive-mind idea because it gives you access to new game play ideas that you couldn't get to otherwise. But much of the community has spoken in caution.. Tweaking with the function/role of the hive-mind could end up being one of the more rewarding game play experiences for ns2. GL GL GL!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, just give all gorges the ability to "command" or effect the hive mind. I think that’s the way it should go.
<!--quoteo(post=1664621:date=Dec 19 2007, 07:28 PM:name=John Top)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John Top @ Dec 19 2007, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to vent... it seems like alot of these posts are saying they don't want NS2 to be new or different. Things like having to learn new playstyles or elements that effect the "team structure" of NS1... they want the same damned thing with "new abilities" and "flamethrowers."
In my opinion that doesn't make a sequel to a game, that makes an expansion pack.
Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, people are just saying they are unsure of what an alien commander would be like. People enjoy the fact that the teams are so different and they don't want to see them becoming too similar. It’s an important part of the NS universe, and NS2 is part of that universe. If anything people are suggesting new alternative ideas to an alien commander, which doesn't sound anything like "alot of these posts are saying they don't want NS2 to be new or different". They are, if anything, saying: "yes try new things, but don't over do the icing on the cake, in fact try this recipe as well".
<!--quoteo(post=1664650:date=Dec 19 2007, 11:05 PM:name=2aimless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2aimless @ Dec 19 2007, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the commander alien is one of the biggest mistakes... The aliens dont need something liek a brainbug... they are like ants! Everyone knows what to do they comunnicate with each other.
Well the only thing i would change is a poll whos building hive/which chamber first/who can go fade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok yeah Ants do have a queen, but the point is right! Alien players just know what to do, if the commander does anything he should just help this "knowing" without becoming relied on. If Alien players start having to ask the commander for things then he will just become a clone of the marine commander. He should just nudge the aliens in the right direction. Directing them to things that need doing, and giving them support without completely becoming a marine commander and giving strict orders and supply drops.
Saying this, I do like the "spells" idea for an alien commander, although someone needs to think of a new name for it, as that one... well... sucks. Although, alternatively, I think it would be really cool to see the gorge being able to drop new offensive chambers into the DI, even chambers that build DI from out of them. If you think about it, the gorge class could be given a lot more importance in NS2. And become the most powerful defensive class on the Aliens side. You could have tactical chamber or a spitting chamber, or spiked hook chamber, flame chamber, acid chamber, chomping mouth chamber, bile chamber, sludge chamber, etc. DI could become like tunnels from hell with various bizarre living creatures growing out of them. Flaying tentacles, arms and claws could attack passing marines and spying eyes could watch them as they pass, telling aliens players via the mini map where they were. Holes in the walls could spit yellow bile and green acid at marines and burn them with flames. Some of these chambers could be avoided (such as the tentacles and arms) by staying out of reach but wouldn’t be seen until they attacked; all would die as the DI died.
It took NS 5 years to get to the amazing masterpiece that it now is. Yes this is my opinion, but having seen practically every game ever made, I believe NS has the best gameplay of any. It has constantly evolved towards this, and there have been a few hiccups and bumps, but its made it here.
But now its going retail. There are a lot of cool ideas being mentioned about NS2, but NS is SUCH a fragile game. Yes you can playtest it and try to do all this, but there is one fact that cannot be forgotten.
<u>As a retail game, you cannot overhaul, renovate, or significantly modify the game away from its first release on the shelf (even if its a digital shelf).</u>
Imagine if NS 1.0 was released retail. What would have happened when they suddenly overhauled it so the res system wasn't dependent on single gorge? Or when they unlocked the alien classes? Or when they changed the JP? The lerk flight system? The cost of almost every structure? Or added the horribly unbalanced first grenades?
Imagine they added the tunnels and alien comm into NS1 right now (forget the technical restrictions of HL1). How long do you think it would be before they actually fit into the game in a balanced fashion? I'd give it at least, at LEAST 6 months of constant 'playtesting' by every player who's downloaded the game. (im no PT but it seems like most of the real balancing comes from simply seeing the changes in action on pubs over months and months). And these features would almost certainly be overhauled significantly a few times over that period.
You simply can't do that with a retail game. NS2 cannot evolve past its release. It can have new maps added, new props, new textures and even new gamemodes (LUA), but the game itself can't progress. (Unless you want to pioneer an Evolving Game concept? Very risky, but it could bring the best benefit of mods to the retail world... you'd just have to make it very blatant in the descriptions that 'game mode subject to change' <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
It seems like a huge risk to do any of these massive game- and balance-altering changes. Yes they can playtest the crap out of it, but playtesting has failed many times before. IMO, the worst case scenario would be the destruction or significant reduction of the beauty that is NS gameplay in NS2; and we all know that NS1 will definitely fall into oblivion once NS2 is out. If NS2 fails in keeping the same tightly-knit balance, we've lost the best game ever made.
So who knows. If I was the devs, I'd have focused on a direct port. Update everything. If this was the original plan, NS:S could have been released months or even years ago, and they'd have solid income, a solid company foundation, and the ability to drive forward with the new concepts in NS2 with a helluva lot more security. Right now, its really up in the air how it'll turn out; we're supposed to be smack-dab in the middle of the development phase, but aside from the static assets (textures, models and basic maps), it sounds like half of the game mechanics hasn't even been fleshed out, let alone balanced.
Im afraid they might be aiming far higher than is rational. I just hope to god they prove me/us wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=1664724:date=Dec 20 2007, 09:51 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ Dec 20 2007, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664724"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also another one - would the alien commander be able to "paint" the map with infestation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i was kinda hoping the gorge could regurgitate the stuff to start new patches <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> that, and have the stuff slowly spread out by itself.
in regards to the alien comm, i think my initial hesitation about it was that it would be a top down view like the marine comm. the idea of having the same visual system and layout of the marine comm i find repulsive, because apart from the new "spells" and abilities that the alien comm could do, the only difference VISUALLY would be a crappy DI infested HUD (compare the terran and zerg HUD's in starcraft). i think an alien comm could work, and be an improvement for the aliens, but it needs to be implemented extremely well, and be radicially different to the marine comm.
so my suggestion is that whatever visual/gameplay feature the marine comm has, give the alien comm the opposite, or at least something that is fundamentally different.
with that said, i think the aliem commander should be an actual lifeform, with a first person view, not top down. flayra has already stated that it wont be dropping supplies (meds & ammo), and i doubt it would have an ability like scan sweep, so i dont think it really needs a viewpoint that can scroll around the map quickly. plus, aliens already have the hive mind, and currently operate collectively, it should only really need to rely on the ingame map, and use that to pinpoint any 'spells' on the map. this may make it hard to give orders(waypoints), but i dont think the alien comm should. as many people said, he shouldnt give orders, just suggestions, and the alien team aready does this by commumicating ingame.
the marine comm is stationary, so the alien comm should be able to move - although very slowly. it should have at least the same HP as the marine chair, and look like its really tough - armor plating or something. it should have very little or no attack capabilities whatsoever - its not meant to be there for a fight. maybe give it defensive capabilities (i'm thinking of those little slater bugs that curl up into a ball when you touch them). that way it can hold its own for a while until it gets some backup. it should control the building of major structures (hives, tubes, others we dont know of yet) but leave chambers, oc's and spreading DI to the gorges. maybe it could be a bit like a slug, so when it moves it leaves a trail of DI behind it. it should be bigger than a gorge but smaller than an onos, with maybe the ability to wall walk, so it can hide better. i dont know how upgrades would work, or if the alien comm should control this. personally i like the way chambers currently control this. maybe new skills could be 'researched' through any new structures that only the alien comm can build, but i wouldnt like the tech tree/upgrade process to resemble the marines.
finally, the game should still revolve around the hives, not the alien comm. if they die, the game should come to an end. if the alien comm dies, someone else could evolve to become it.
A thought on the tube, if it hasn't been mentioned yet: it should have two corners to improve performance when both ends are open. It'll also better suit the illusion that you're going through the infestation to another part of the map instead of a straight line.
Comments
Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I like it. I like it a lot.
Though I personally envision at as such: the player can move through other players(and buildings) while... molten, and moves at least twice as fast. Also, even non-skulk classes get wall-climbing abilities while, so if the infestation has spread up above a pipe, you can emerge out of the goop on top of the pipe, raring to go!
You didn't actually say it, but perhaps it was kind of implied that the player could not leave the infestation while submerged?
Though I personally envision at as such: the player can move through other players(and buildings) while... molten, and moves at least twice as fast. Also, even non-skulk classes get wall-climbing abilities while, so if the infestation has spread up above a pipe, you can emerge out of the goop on top of the pipe, raring to go!
You didn't actually say it, but perhaps it was kind of implied that the player could not leave the infestation while submerged?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is exactly right. The player can move through any players/buildings/marines while in this "molten" state. Just not map geometry. I like the idea of a speed boost.
The player cannot leave the infestation except by way of a entrance that must be built by a gorge.
I will edit my post to clarify. thanks.
"molten" is a good word <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
(if it's up already, I can't find it)
Glad you guys had a productive visit at Valve.
Glad you guys are throwing new ideas around.
Glad you guys are in the green.
Have a happy holiday. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
I think that the idea of hallways whether made in map or dynamically is a <b><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->complicated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>* idea. It is just <u>way too much work</u> for the Devs and will <i><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->possibly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>* be limiting to gameplay as well as game performance.
*<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->edited for clarity<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I would like to suggest another idea that has not been mentioned and is <b>much easier</b> to implement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Tubes would work like this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
When a player enters a tube, he <u><b>stays right where he is</b></u> in the map. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Instead of being teleported to some hallway or another place on the map, the player is changed into Dynamic Infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Let me explain what "Changed into Dynamic Infestation" means...
<b>The player is not actually changed into anything.</b> That is just the concept. What actually happens is the player is made invisible and his view of the map changes to show that he is inside the DI. (imagine something similar to alien flashlight view)
Source has many effects that can make the screen change color, look blurred, etc. The player would be able to tell that he is in DI and perhaps it could have special sound effects too.
The player can run along in the hallway where he was before he entered the DI. The player doesn't actually go anywhere, he just "changes". The player becomes like a ghost. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><i>The player can move through any players/buildings/marines while in this "molten" state. Just not map geometry.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->* He can still see marines and the map like normal, but he cannot interact with anything unless he leaves through another tube entrance/exit. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><i>This is not a instant transport to another part of the map like suggested in some other posts or like movement chambers. The alien still has to run at normal speeds wherever it is he wants to go.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->*
This idea keeps alien movement different from marines completely. Aliens can use the DI to move around safely in their territory. It also works wonders for ambushing as a whole group of skulks could wait in the DI and then suddenly appear and attack without warning. It would also be a safe haven to escape to to heal. Or it could also be a prison if marines destroy your entrance.
<!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro-->To sum things up: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Aliens are fast and should not have "Phase gates"
Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory.
<!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Some Detail Points:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
-Gorges can make tube entrys anywhere on the DI and maybe can even make exits while inside the DI.(there could also be a limit on entrances)
-Only small aliens can use the tubes.
-Aliens can only enter through entrys that are built by a gorge.
-Marines can destroy the entry points.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->edited<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->EmpV wins. This would be an excellent implementation of the tubes idea that doesn't overbalance things.
Are you pulled along in much the same way as our esophagus works? or do you crawl along inside? that would mean it would be up to the marine to make the choice, zooming along a biological tube and then seeing a ring of teeth up ahead you know the desicion you made was the wrong one and shortly after are mangled into a pulp... =)
But, how will this effect the minimap?
I think it would be a great counter to marines welding up doors.
as for the alien commander i'm not convinced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1664360:date=Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 17 2007, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much how we were thinking about implementing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is <b>exactly</b> what I already created in my custom NS1 map! Never released it though, the layout was shizz.
Btw, BABBLERS!
Maybe a little too I&S, but you guys know that sounds awesome compared to just playing Zerg in Starcraft <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
this would also requier teamplay, coordination and communication. just an idea <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
so what do you think about that <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103444" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=103444</a>
Happy Christmas everyone !
There's also the issue of removing one extra alien player to be the commander. Where would that extra player come from if we still have Gorges? That's one less combat player or there's one less Gorge on the field healing. It starts to make the Gorge sound redundant, depending on the abilities you give the commander.
Essentially, I'd like to know how the new marine resource model would work with purchasing before I can start speculating.
(apologies if this has been talked about before... my time is spread thin these days)
But check out my idea, instead of giving a single alien a king/commander position, a <u>ONE FOR ALL</u> attitude (similar to marine structure), try incorporating the original <u>ALL FOR ONE</u> game play that is unique to the aliens within the new feature of the hive-mind. What about giving the aliens this new feature in which only gorgs could access. Multiple gorgs would have the ability to "resonate" with the hive mind, accessing the overview mode. To the extent of power, time use,and utility of each "resonating" gorg would be completely formed around play testing. I think there could two separate and equally important roles the gorg could play, and this would help stray from monotony.. finding balance between playing gorg and "resonating". And I know you two were talking about "down time" and "up time", maybe going into the comm mode for the gorgs could be down time that would make healing on the front lines that much better. It would in the best case make the alien side that much more dynamic.
This would most likely add confusion... but each gorg could be partitioned options of the commander menu. Its really up in the air.
And that's why we can't let it splat.
I do like the hive-mind idea because it gives you access to new game play ideas that you couldn't get to otherwise. But much of the community has spoken in caution.. Tweaking with the function/role of the hive-mind could end up being one of the more rewarding game play experiences for ns2. GL GL GL!!!
I hope some more info on the new alien commander play style will come soon. It better be good ^_^
("res")
I think I'm one to put my faith in the developers designers that they will bring us a fun game..
Less 'QQ' about Alien Commander also <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Hive Mind sounds a bit too close to SC also, so that kind of name might get canned.
Alien tubes? maybe.
The most important in NS2 is dont repeat stupid work since 1.0 to 3.2 Open PG´s failed, comunitary alien res failed...
The best points to fix in NS2 could be:
- Alien side:
Better skills, for melee play(movement was an excelent idea, that kind of things must be improved for ns2).
Animal habilities like rage, screams, bonus by each attacking alien.The most important is improve the combat mode in aliens.More ideas like: chameleon skin, ultraspeed attack(in 1 sec, alien got the max of speed, to get ambushes)
Normal gameplay, no AI help, basic basic game info, really funny to play(without need complex skills like bunnyjumping, with some special habilities to hardcore gamers and clanners).
Main weapon: environment, skill with habilities(hard to play for begginers but lethal for experts), bonus melee, classes
Weak in: Organization, first 4-5 min of the game, hard to improve max skill with habilities.
- Marine side:
Assisted gameplay with lot of info. AI bot to weld(like a flying robot, look c&c3).More Complex techtree, more easy command soldiers(lot of hotkeys, tools to define groups by?), time critical for that side.Players with better info about the game, with assisted info(can be upgraded by lvl) about attacked RT´s, Radio transmisions(with max distance for the comunications).
Main weapon: info, AI, Commander, gameplay like other shooter.
Weak in: Slow, no specialist classes until 5+ min, problems with environment.
In Resume, that is a scheme like ns1 but they must be improved that 1/3 new in:
- Lifeforms habilities.
- Marine Comunications (with his techtree)
- Dynamic Infestation with change in environment(lights off, hard to comunicate, impossible medding...).
And improve:
- Marine commander system.
- Gorge class.
And remember, dont repeat the work of 5 years!!!! You made a nice work with that 3.2 version.Its a really balanced version and you only should walk in the same direction without forget side´s identity.
In my opinion that doesn't make a sequel to a game, that makes an expansion pack.
Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)
In my opinion that doesn't make a sequel to a game, that makes an expansion pack.
Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe, but asymmetric gameplay is one of the "pillars of NS2" and an alien commander would remove a difference between the two teams on a very basic level. DI is very exciting and new and definitely not "Natural Selection: 3.2+". The I&S forum is full of threads about DI and DW.
Change is good, but the hivesight/hivemind of the kharaa is one of the major unique features of NS and many people want in the "1/3 improved" or even the "1/3 the same" column.
Its true. CS and DOD were complete failures when they went retail onto Source. Even when they had SO MUCH new content.
/rolls eyes
Everyone knows what to do they comunnicate with each other.
Well the only thing i would change is a poll whos building hive/which chamber first/who can go fade
/rolls eyes<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/rolls eyes
You failed to acknowledge that CS and DOD were retail way before source. Yes, CS and DOD were mods before source but Charlie has stated numerous times that NS2 is going to be different from NS the mod.
NS2 is a different game with the same pillars. Yes, an alien commander mode similar to the marine commander mode would be breaking that barrier. However, what I think people are failing to do is think outside their comfort zone of either a FPS play (first person) or RTS management (birds eye) and not think about how the aliens can have a completely unique "Queen" that is dependent on the team and the hivemind, instead of the team depending on her, and being able to use that individual class as a new structure for which the aliens have to work together to build up, and instead of being ordered to do things, the rest of the team is doing the ordering.
<!--quoteo(post=1664650:date=Dec 19 2007, 07:05 PM:name=2aimless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2aimless @ Dec 19 2007, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the commander alien is one of the biggest mistakes... The aliens dont need something liek a brainbug... they are like ants!
Everyone knows what to do they comunnicate with each other.
Well the only thing i would change is a poll whos building hive/which chamber first/who can go fade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ants have a Queen, sorry to burst your bubble.
<img src="http://www.gameproducer.net/images/025.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
there would be nothing cooler then some tentacles bursting out of the wall, the marine would have to grenade, flame etc them.
It could be used offensivily too simply attack marines, or to stop them from feeling a wall of OC's
etc.
alien players could even jump out of that tentacle hole while its open like a type of phase gate maybe
or how about an eye of sauran style ability for either of the commanders, so that the players can see if the commander is watching them (only visible to commanders team)
<img src="http://www.timeofwar.com/bfme/images/histoire/bfme2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
and casting spells by using the DI should be the main-work the alien commander has to do imo
But, how will this effect the minimap?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't I imagine, maybe it would on the Aliens team, but not on the marines team, as according to the podcast they imagine it as not being able to be seen by Marine commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1664574:date=Dec 19 2007, 08:04 AM:name=smee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(smee @ Dec 19 2007, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->K, a lot of great stuff being thrown down.. the king gorg suggestion, even though it made me giggle, could be some sorta replacement for an alien "overmind" if thats the desired direction ns2 is going in.
But check out my idea, instead of giving a single alien a king/commander position, a <u>ONE FOR ALL</u> attitude (similar to marine structure), try incorporating the original <u>ALL FOR ONE</u> game play that is unique to the aliens within the new feature of the hive-mind. What about giving the aliens this new feature in which only gorgs could access. Multiple gorgs would have the ability to "resonate" with the hive mind, accessing the overview mode. To the extent of power, time use,and utility of each "resonating" gorg would be completely formed around play testing. I think there could two separate and equally important roles the gorg could play, and this would help stray from monotony.. finding balance between playing gorg and "resonating". And I know you two were talking about "down time" and "up time", maybe going into the comm mode for the gorgs could be down time that would make healing on the front lines that much better. It would in the best case make the alien side that much more dynamic.
This would most likely add confusion... but each gorg could be partitioned options of the commander menu. Its really up in the air.
And that's why we can't let it splat.
I do like the hive-mind idea because it gives you access to new game play ideas that you couldn't get to otherwise. But much of the community has spoken in caution.. Tweaking with the function/role of the hive-mind could end up being one of the more rewarding game play experiences for ns2. GL GL GL!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, just give all gorges the ability to "command" or effect the hive mind. I think that’s the way it should go.
<!--quoteo(post=1664621:date=Dec 19 2007, 07:28 PM:name=John Top)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John Top @ Dec 19 2007, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to vent... it seems like alot of these posts are saying they don't want NS2 to be new or different. Things like having to learn new playstyles or elements that effect the "team structure" of NS1... they want the same damned thing with "new abilities" and "flamethrowers."
In my opinion that doesn't make a sequel to a game, that makes an expansion pack.
Natural Selection: 3.2+ The Retail Expansion Pack for a Mod (COMING SOON!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, people are just saying they are unsure of what an alien commander would be like. People enjoy the fact that the teams are so different and they don't want to see them becoming too similar. It’s an important part of the NS universe, and NS2 is part of that universe. If anything people are suggesting new alternative ideas to an alien commander, which doesn't sound anything like "alot of these posts are saying they don't want NS2 to be new or different". They are, if anything, saying: "yes try new things, but don't over do the icing on the cake, in fact try this recipe as well".
<!--quoteo(post=1664650:date=Dec 19 2007, 11:05 PM:name=2aimless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2aimless @ Dec 19 2007, 11:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the commander alien is one of the biggest mistakes... The aliens dont need something liek a brainbug... they are like ants!
Everyone knows what to do they comunnicate with each other.
Well the only thing i would change is a poll whos building hive/which chamber first/who can go fade<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok yeah Ants do have a queen, but the point is right! Alien players just know what to do, if the commander does anything he should just help this "knowing" without becoming relied on. If Alien players start having to ask the commander for things then he will just become a clone of the marine commander. He should just nudge the aliens in the right direction. Directing them to things that need doing, and giving them support without completely becoming a marine commander and giving strict orders and supply drops.
Saying this, I do like the "spells" idea for an alien commander, although someone needs to think of a new name for it, as that one... well... sucks.
Although, alternatively, I think it would be really cool to see the gorge being able to drop new offensive chambers into the DI, even chambers that build DI from out of them. If you think about it, the gorge class could be given a lot more importance in NS2. And become the most powerful defensive class on the Aliens side. You could have tactical chamber or a spitting chamber, or spiked hook chamber, flame chamber, acid chamber, chomping mouth chamber, bile chamber, sludge chamber, etc. DI could become like tunnels from hell with various bizarre living creatures growing out of them. Flaying tentacles, arms and claws could attack passing marines and spying eyes could watch them as they pass, telling aliens players via the mini map where they were. Holes in the walls could spit yellow bile and green acid at marines and burn them with flames. Some of these chambers could be avoided (such as the tentacles and arms) by staying out of reach but wouldn’t be seen until they attacked; all would die as the DI died.
What do you think?
It took NS 5 years to get to the amazing masterpiece that it now is. Yes this is my opinion, but having seen practically every game ever made, I believe NS has the best gameplay of any. It has constantly evolved towards this, and there have been a few hiccups and bumps, but its made it here.
But now its going retail. There are a lot of cool ideas being mentioned about NS2, but NS is SUCH a fragile game. Yes you can playtest it and try to do all this, but there is one fact that cannot be forgotten.
<u>As a retail game, you cannot overhaul, renovate, or significantly modify the game away from its first release on the shelf (even if its a digital shelf).</u>
Imagine if NS 1.0 was released retail. What would have happened when they suddenly overhauled it so the res system wasn't dependent on single gorge? Or when they unlocked the alien classes? Or when they changed the JP? The lerk flight system? The cost of almost every structure? Or added the horribly unbalanced first grenades?
Imagine they added the tunnels and alien comm into NS1 right now (forget the technical restrictions of HL1). How long do you think it would be before they actually fit into the game in a balanced fashion? I'd give it at least, at LEAST 6 months of constant 'playtesting' by every player who's downloaded the game. (im no PT but it seems like most of the real balancing comes from simply seeing the changes in action on pubs over months and months). And these features would almost certainly be overhauled significantly a few times over that period.
You simply can't do that with a retail game. NS2 cannot evolve past its release. It can have new maps added, new props, new textures and even new gamemodes (LUA), but the game itself can't progress. (Unless you want to pioneer an Evolving Game concept? Very risky, but it could bring the best benefit of mods to the retail world... you'd just have to make it very blatant in the descriptions that 'game mode subject to change' <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
It seems like a huge risk to do any of these massive game- and balance-altering changes. Yes they can playtest the crap out of it, but playtesting has failed many times before. IMO, the worst case scenario would be the destruction or significant reduction of the beauty that is NS gameplay in NS2; and we all know that NS1 will definitely fall into oblivion once NS2 is out. If NS2 fails in keeping the same tightly-knit balance, we've lost the best game ever made.
So who knows. If I was the devs, I'd have focused on a direct port. Update everything. If this was the original plan, NS:S could have been released months or even years ago, and they'd have solid income, a solid company foundation, and the ability to drive forward with the new concepts in NS2 with a helluva lot more security. Right now, its really up in the air how it'll turn out; we're supposed to be smack-dab in the middle of the development phase, but aside from the static assets (textures, models and basic maps), it sounds like half of the game mechanics hasn't even been fleshed out, let alone balanced.
Im afraid they might be aiming far higher than is rational. I just hope to god they prove me/us wrong.
i was kinda hoping the gorge could regurgitate the stuff to start new patches <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> that, and have the stuff slowly spread out by itself.
in regards to the alien comm, i think my initial hesitation about it was that it would be a top down view like the marine comm. the idea of having the same visual system and layout of the marine comm i find repulsive, because apart from the new "spells" and abilities that the alien comm could do, the only difference VISUALLY would be a crappy DI infested HUD (compare the terran and zerg HUD's in starcraft). i think an alien comm could work, and be an improvement for the aliens, but it needs to be implemented extremely well, and be radicially different to the marine comm.
so my suggestion is that whatever visual/gameplay feature the marine comm has, give the alien comm the opposite, or at least something that is fundamentally different.
with that said, i think the aliem commander should be an actual lifeform, with a first person view, not top down. flayra has already stated that it wont be dropping supplies (meds & ammo), and i doubt it would have an ability like scan sweep, so i dont think it really needs a viewpoint that can scroll around the map quickly. plus, aliens already have the hive mind, and currently operate collectively, it should only really need to rely on the ingame map, and use that to pinpoint any 'spells' on the map. this may make it hard to give orders(waypoints), but i dont think the alien comm should. as many people said, he shouldnt give orders, just suggestions, and the alien team aready does this by commumicating ingame.
the marine comm is stationary, so the alien comm should be able to move - although very slowly. it should have at least the same HP as the marine chair, and look like its really tough - armor plating or something. it should have very little or no attack capabilities whatsoever - its not meant to be there for a fight. maybe give it defensive capabilities (i'm thinking of those little slater bugs that curl up into a ball when you touch them). that way it can hold its own for a while until it gets some backup.
it should control the building of major structures (hives, tubes, others we dont know of yet) but leave chambers, oc's and spreading DI to the gorges. maybe it could be a bit like a slug, so when it moves it leaves a trail of DI behind it. it should be bigger than a gorge but smaller than an onos, with maybe the ability to wall walk, so it can hide better.
i dont know how upgrades would work, or if the alien comm should control this. personally i like the way chambers currently control this. maybe new skills could be 'researched' through any new structures that only the alien comm can build, but i wouldnt like the tech tree/upgrade process to resemble the marines.
finally, the game should still revolve around the hives, not the alien comm. if they die, the game should come to an end. if the alien comm dies, someone else could evolve to become it.
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