Squad respawning
Scythe
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
<div class="IPBDescription">From the podcast</div>When I heard about the squad respawning idea on the podcast my initial reaction was "Eww no". I gave it a little more thought and I came up with this idea.
If a member of a marine squad dies, the remaining members of the squad (at least two or three) must cooperate to bring their squad member back. The process would take the full attention of two or three marines for about 3-5 seconds. It might be setting up a temporary infantry portal field by standing in a triangle and pressing use, or possibly laying out an inflatable (Nanites) IP on the ground.
This'd require that the squad got out of the immediate danger and would allow for the fallen squadmate to reenter the fray somewhat quickly.
Another option would be to have two survivors press use on their squadmate's corpse for a few seconds to revive them, ala Republic Commando.
--Scythe--
If a member of a marine squad dies, the remaining members of the squad (at least two or three) must cooperate to bring their squad member back. The process would take the full attention of two or three marines for about 3-5 seconds. It might be setting up a temporary infantry portal field by standing in a triangle and pressing use, or possibly laying out an inflatable (Nanites) IP on the ground.
This'd require that the squad got out of the immediate danger and would allow for the fallen squadmate to reenter the fray somewhat quickly.
Another option would be to have two survivors press use on their squadmate's corpse for a few seconds to revive them, ala Republic Commando.
--Scythe--
Comments
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103742&view=findpost&p=1669312" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1669312</a>
i think it would be better if only 1 of the squad members tries to activate the IP, it would leave more marines to provide cover (remember the squad could only be 2-3 marines to begin with). rather than running away to find a quiet spot to respawn, it would make it easier to quickly try to respawn a player when under attack - when you need it most.
lol i dont want it to be inflatable, do you want to blow that thing up? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
if the devs dont like that idea then i guess the republic commando idea is a pretty good substitute. maybe the ip is fixed to the marines back and you just press a button? the only problem with this is that you need to stay with the corpse, or run back to it, which may not always be easier than carrying an IP with you.
I proposed a reviving tool that marines could buy and use on dead teammates to revive them.
I'll try to break the spawn mechanic into basic components, from which other original ideas could be created.
Here are few options:
- Do teammates have to do something to revive a squad member? Yes/No.
- Is the dead marine tied to respawning near his body? Yes/No.
- What choices does the dead marine have? Spawn in base/wait to be revived/other?
There can be many different timers: after the marine dies, how many seconds before he can respawn in the squad? How long till respawn in base?
The ways in which squadmates revive him: How many squadmates are required to revive? What do they need to do to revive? How long do they "do their thing"?
What will the dead marine see and what options will he have? will he see his teammates as they continue to fight or his base or can he switch like in NS1? What information on UI will he see? - marine map/resources/timers to respawn?
It would make sense to me if reviving would require squad members to do something, that the marine would respawn near his dead body and he would have a choice to respawn in base. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't have to be that way. It could work that the dead marine would just have a timer and after a while he automatically spawns near the closest squadmate - that would suck, but it's still an option.
Same goes for PIP.
*edit: There's also the fact that spawning is a timely process - a momentary respite from one player on the enemy team. Giving marines the ability to revive their teammates instantly is detrimental to that game mechanic. While spawning is a 'time until' (player respawns), reviving is a 'time before' (player can't respawn instantly).
What do you mean by this? How would it work? Or are you simply referring to NS1 system?
<!--quoteo(post=1669409:date=Feb 3 2008, 12:15 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 3 2008, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Auto-spawning's fine. Giving marines a 'shockpad' is stupid, to me. They just got their face bitten off. Besides, if you're in a group of marines, and you died; they're hardly going to put everything down and revive you, considering they'll have their hands full fighting, defending against, running away from, or chasing that(those) alien(s). *
Same goes for PIP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it isn't realistic - but it's a game and the gameplay is what counts (btw, squad respawning without reviving would make even less sense!). Sure, they will have to fight off the opponents before bothering with the dead teammate. But after that, the squad will have to decide: move forward with one less man, or take the time to increase squad strength and then move forward. Additionally, based on his squad mates' decision, the dead marine might decide to join another squad or later in turn revive one of his dead squad mates.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*edit: There's also the fact that spawning is a timely process - a momentary respite from one player on the enemy team. Giving marines the ability to revive their teammates instantly is detrimental to that game mechanic. While spawning is a 'time until' (player respawns), reviving is a 'time before' (player can't respawn instantly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, i haven't fleshed out my idea at all, but i did hint at a timer in my post. Ok, here is how it could work:
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Squad Respawning Mechanic: Reviving<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
When a marine dies, he sees 2 timers: 1st timer is for when he respawns in base (10 sec); 2nd, much longer timer, is for when he revives at his dead body (90 sec). The marine can decide where he wants to respawn.
To help revive a teammate, you click on him and a bar starts to fill (like a building). The more people click on him, the faster the bar fills*. The higher the bar, the quicker the marine will be able to respawn at his body, but it can never be higher than a minimum respawn delay value (5 sec).
*The rate at which squad mates reduce the revival time and all other times will have to be adjusted for balance. Also, the squadmates can fill the "revival bar" completely before the marine can respawn: so it's possible that marines revive a marine and move on, and after a few seconds the marine will respawn alone and has to catch up.
A reviving tool could be introduced as secondary item (like welder) that would increase rate of revival.
Here is the nanite-explanation:
Every marine has a built-in nano rejuvenation unit, which rapidly heals the body. The nanites automatically look for injuries and heal them, but they require a lot of energy to do so. In NS1 the medpacks provided that energy and allowed rapid body recovery. In the last five years the nano rejuvenation technology has advanced to allow copying tissue from alive marines to replace lost tissue: even if a marine lost his arm, the genetic code for rebuilding that arm would be copied from a squad member and the nanites would be able to rapidly replace it. Thus it is now possible to revive even dead marines. However, a living marine has to be present and supply the organic material to revive his dead teammate; and the process takes more time than the medpack's instant health.
Have you seen the film Starship Troopers? - The troopers also fought melee-based aliens and were cut up into pieces, but could then be revived again. Here the idea is similar, but the revival happens on the field. (Also, NS marines were never shown torn into bits and pieces - though i can see how you would assume that, considering aliens' sharp teeth)
Think of it exactly how it says. Revival isn't auto-spawning, is it?
You think squad respawning makes less sense? Squad respawning makes a lot more sense than reviving <b>half a bloody corpse</b>. They just teleport the fresh new recruit to your location, what's so hard to understand about that?
Again, they're not going to wait around to revive you when they're BUSY with any number of other things, some of which I've already listed. This isn't a relatively leisurely game like BF2 where time/distance between action is very large.
Why not cut out the middle-man and let the marine spawn at your location automatically?
As for the 'it's a game, it doesn't have to be totally realistic' argument, sure. But the way you put it, that's just stupid. The way you put it, it's okay to give the onos a mountable turret, because it'll be fun. I'm sure it will be, but do you think that likely?
agreed, i dont want to revive a dead copse that would(should) be missing limbs, their face etc. and please dont work the whole "nanites" arguement into this. the way i see it, if a marine is dead, he's dead. however squad respawning will allow a player to potentially repawn back with their team, maybe even in the area where they died (ie the corpse).
<!--quoteo(post=1669479:date=Feb 4 2008, 07:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 4 2008, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, they're not going to wait around to revive you when they're BUSY with any number of other things, some of which I've already listed. This isn't a relatively leisurely game like BF2 where time/distance between action is very large.
Why not cut out the middle-man and let the marine spawn at your location automatically?
As for the 'it's a game, it doesn't have to be totally realistic' argument, sure. But the way you put it, that's just stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you seem to be forgetting that a lot of the battles in NS1 finish pretty quickly (hive assaults tend to be the exception). if marines win, they have brief pause until the aliens get back there, giving you plenty of time to respawn another player. dont forget phase gates will most likely me in NS2, so you can always spend a bit more time to try to get a phase up so they can get to the area the old fashioned way ( i imagine a PIP would be pretty quick compared to a phase). the advantage of a PIP would be that it would work like a mini vanilla marine infantry portal, that can be activated/deactivated quickly. plus, if you have people covering you, you could easily get a PIP up quicker than building a structure (well it should be a lot quicker anyways). if the comm doesnt want a phase gate there, then you have the option to just respawn vanilla players in.
also, the more players you manage to repawn in, the more that will cover you to do other things....
as i've said before, my main concerns are:
players materializing out of thin air (ala beacon) - it would look ######, and wouldnt fit in with the NS universe as opposed to a marine spawning out of some sort of mobile infantry portal.
players spawning in from some random timer - too easy predict for the aliens, too frustrating for the waiting marine (lol at the "90secs till respawn idea")
i don't see it being too bad to have a flashy 'phasing' animation when they spawn into their group. it'd be, conceptually, much the same as the medical kits and ammunition i guess, just on a larger scale.
really, it'd be something like, every one of your living squad members is a beacon with a certain signature, and all that does is give the phasing-in/"spawning" system the rough coordinates of where you''re meant to phase in.
i think it might be amusing if there was a one in twenty chance the spawns failed and you landed somewhere else ;p but that's not a serious suggestion.
btw i also agree the 90second thing was dumb, but it was actually a 'time before you can't be revived from your corpse', not a 'time until respawn' as you seem to have thought. either way 90 seconds is ridiculous.
But i also agree that there has to be a default timer as often on pubs players wont stop to revive team mates even in periods of low activity.
The dead player should defo have a choice to respawn at base instead and leave the squad
I would like to see some model alterations if it is a revial rather than a respawn. If it is a reviaval ur tecko explantation could nvolve nanite field surgery by the team mate rines. When the rine is revived his model could have silvery metal blotches on it of cyborgised nanite stuff, and patches where the wounds were. I recon that would look cool and make the process more valid in a story bound sense.
Another option is to defer respawning and revial control to the comm, but this may over stress his job alot, still if anyone can think of a way that the comm could be useful in respawning mangment post it
I would think that squad spawning should work sort of like lazar targeting does now. Each marine spawns with a laser beacon (possibly a tech to allow squad spawning). If want to call in another marine you switch to your laser beacon and hold to activate it. It This gives the mother ship a fix on your location and they beam a new player in. Multiple players activating there beacon speeds up the spawning rate as the ship can get a fix faster. This means that you have to put down your gun, so if there are aliens there look out. It could even make a sound to let the aliens know that you’re a gun down. If you switch to your gun to defend yourself and then back again you have to start from scratch. This way even if you are under heavy assault you can call in more players, but at a cost.
Question is: what happens with players who are waiting to spawn but no one is beaconing?
Possible answer is to simply have them respawn and if they are within a certain distance of marine spawn they get beamed to their squad once they activate their beacons. If not they walk.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Squad Respawning Mechanic Suggestion: Auto-spawn<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
- Requirements to spawn: Marines are automatically assigned into dynamic squads. A squad has to have at least 2 people, that are close to each other. If the whole squad is wiped down, all marines spawn in base.
- Cool down: When one of the squad members dies, there are two cool-downs: a longer one for spawning with his team and a shorter one for spawning in base. The marine decides where to spawn.
- Spawning: a few seconds before spawning, the marine is placed where one of his teammates is and can move to a desired spawning location - at this point he's invisible to others and is pushed back - so he can't spawn inside an alien or building. Then he spawns by becoming material
- Penalties for dieing: you lose your weapon and equipment. It could be done so that you can't shoot for a few seconds right after you spawn in.
These are just suggestions. I'm not sure on how marines would spawn at all. Hoe you can come up with a better idea for spawning.
Also, i foresee a potential exploit: a 3-man squad loses 2 members intentionally while the third hides and then sneaks into a hive. The two marines spawn in and together they rapidly build up PG and turrets.
Gameplay difference between reviving and auto-spawn:
Auto-spawning will force the aliens to attack and allow marines to defend. In NS1 aliens could hide and then ambush marines. If they do it with auto-spawning though, the marines who are alive can just retreat and assume a defensive position waiting for their teammates to respawn. The aliens will have to attack the remaining marine so With reviving technique that would be impossible. (I'm not saying reviving is better, i'm just pointing out differences in gameplay i can foresee)
For those who value realism in video games, here is a response:
I have added am explanation to how that revival could work. I seriously don't understand why it makes sense for people that teammates appear out of nowhere, but doesn't make sense that marines are treated by teammates to continue their fight. In real wars, injured soldiers are given first-air treatment so they can continue to fight. Yes, they aren't dead, but if they can't fight they might as well be considered "dead." After they're treated they are "alive" again. Granted, it takes a lot longer, but it's still the same idea. Also, this kind of in-combat revival has been already done in a variety of games.
Alright, now let's hear why the marines can teleport next to their squad mates but not into any other place on the map and, if it's not too much to ask, how teleportation works without a phasegate. EDIT: I missed Harimau's post where he describe how auto-spawning works, so this sentence was uncalled for - sorry about that.
But in the end, gameplay is what will makes games great. I don't disregard realism, but i would put it second behind gameplay. Let's discuss the impact on NS2 gameplay that various squad respawn ideas would have.
Misere: actually I was thinking of it simply. the beacon is built into the armour. it's just an explanation of <i>how squad respawning would work</i>.
Your handheld beacon suggestion, and it is yours, is superior to the revival suggestion, but nearly the same as the Portable Infantry Portal suggestion; just a lot quicker, easier, and more mobile, so I think it's better.
with squad respawning, the problem for me is, weapon selection/ammunition, how will that work if you spawn away from the base/armoury?
because if you die, you -should- still lose your equipment, i agree on that.
anyway, although this might deserve its own thread, I was thinking that even if we kept spawning as it is in NS, we could still keep auto-grouping.
something like.. (this is based on the assumption that squads can only be at least 3 players, but it might be easier to have it set at 2)
-if you're unassigned and within proximity to two other marines or another squad, for 5 seconds, you'd form/join a/that squad.
-if you walk away from the rest of your squad, and you remain out of proximity to any squad, for 30 seconds, you become unassigned.
-when you respawn, ordinarily you'd become unassigned, unless you're within a certain distance to your previous squad. (has to be short running distance)
-if you're part of a squad, but out of proximity to the rest of your squad members, but in proximity to another squad, for 10 seconds, you join that squad.
->if two different squads come together, they remain apart.
the numbers themselves aren't important, but i was thinking the comparative numbers should be like this, ie. 5 < 10 < 30 - time to join squad < time to join squad if already in squad < time to become unassigned
<!--QuoteBegin-afratnikov+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but doesn't make sense that marines are treated by teammates to continue their fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You think squad respawning makes less sense? Squad respawning makes a lot more sense than reviving <b>half a bloody corpse</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
note also, that in BF2, iirc - correct me if i'm wrong: you can only revive people that have died through bullet wounds, you cannot revive people that have been blown up by a grenade, or a rocket, or a tank shell.
Now, let's consider how aliens kill marines in NS: biting, slashing, goring, exploding, acid, poison, devouring whole.
<!--QuoteBegin-afratnikov+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alright, now let's hear why the marines can teleport next to their squad mates but not into any other place on the map and, if it's not too much to ask, how teleportation works without a phasegate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They just teleport the fresh new recruit to your location, what's so hard to understand about that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>i don't see it being too bad to have a flashy 'phasing' animation when they spawn into their group.</i> it'd be, conceptually, much the same as the medical kits and ammunition i guess, just on a larger scale.
really, it'd be something like, every one of your living squad members is a beacon with a certain signature, and all that does is give the phasing-in/"spawning" system the rough coordinates of where you''re meant to phase in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It feels like you're not reading my responses mate. :/
I like the suggestion of having to put away your weapon to call in medical transport and reinforcement process by use of a targeting system, so they don't accidentally phase/teleport your buddy into the hull, wall, or whatever. See: PIP and Laser.
This also suggests to me that a squad could only effectively be as small as 2 marines, where one covers and the other calls in the evacuation of the downed buddies and gets them back when they have been revived at the orbital medical station.
One way I see this affecting game play, the marines are going to want to travel on the map in as large groups as possible. I'm pretty sure we already do this in NS1, this just seems to reinforce that buddy system.
I think there have been some good suggestions on limitations to the spawning, with the default being to spawn back at base. Here is another possible limitation suggestion: Research - I suggest squad re-spawning be something that requires the Commander to throw some time and resources into it, cost and requirements in accordance with where the Devs would earliest want to see this happening during the game play.
The respawner could be infested, pushing the spawning marine further from his squad.
Being able to see squad members outlines through walls would also be nice. The same way as Left 4 Dead. So that the spawned marine would have a better idea of where to get to find his buddies.
Edit:
Also, a cool idea that doesn't really involve spawning but involves squads I just thought I'd say...
It'd be a cool if each marine got a medkit that could be used to heal hurt teammates, rather than the commander throwing 4358039405 medpacks at the squad, the marines couldn't camp a giant pile of medkits in combat, might be nice, just an idea.
i see it like this because of the aliens defence point of view. If the system allows squads to replensih simply after a short period of time squads will be come very power ful. One player just has to escape the mayhem and call his back up in.
If it works more like phase gates it will be a bit different.
ATM in ns1 when the rines build a phase gate out side of an alien position or hive. the aliens can destory the phase gate if they gain victory over the rines using it. But if the aliens loose their attack on the PG and the rines using it the rines get back up.
With squads a similar function could take place. If the aliens defeat the squad but dont nessesarily kill every single member the squads ability to reform should be jepardised. If the rines gain a victory then it should be relatively simple for them to get back up to full squad force.
ATM beacon is used when the rines are loosing as a trump card at base (unless it used by the comm to get everyone in one place for an attack.)
Squad spawning shouldnt be a an Ace up the squads sleave for when they are loosing but a system to save rines hassal.
This would mean that wearing down a squad from the aliens perspective wudnt be so effective. if u pick of one rine he'l spawn back, but it may slow them down while they stop to get him spawned back in. But it would also mean that the rine squad would have to come out on top in each fight they get in to, to keep respawning and going on.
Because a lone marine, last survivor of his squad, will have to outrun the aliens and get to a safe location first, because marines can't respawn in unsafe locations; that's a KEY part of the squad respawning system as given in the podcast.
I'm sure there will also be unassigning from squads if you drift away too far; for one thing to guard against the possibility of a lone marine hanging back serving as a mobile phase gate; so everyone WILL have to stick together; marines WILL have to win those confrontations; or at least run away together.
Granted, it does give marines more of a -successive- (or just consistent) advantage (because of near consistent numbers in every confrontation), aliens will have the disadvantage in numbers in forward positions, but only if the marines do win all those confrontations.
The more I think about it, the more squad respawning sounds like a good idea to me.
edit: although... you're right that it does make PGs rather obsolete, unless perhaps they're made less destructible, or more attractive to use.
You go play cs.
I'm too busy playing The Fortress of Teams 2
I'm too busy playing The Fortress of Teams 2<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did say "or something" so <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
but anyway, squad spawning would be intresting if not over done. The main thing is that will aliens get teh same thing? If so then you are making the teams more the same not unique.
I mean the style of play is that of, aliens hit and run. Rines stay and fight. UNless the respawn timer is large the hit and run of skulks would make it very pointless.