NS2 Spawning System
afratnikov
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18931Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Marine spawn in squads. Aliens spawn from eggs.</div>In the last 2 podcasts the spawning system for both sides has been revealed:
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> The aliens now spawn from eggs, that have been first "fertilized" by glowies. The idea is that under each hive there would be more eggs than spawning aliens, forcing the marines to guess where the next alien will spawn.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" /> In podcast 16 the Marine Squad Spawn mechanic was revealed. To encourage team play, marines would be able to spawn with their squad mates when they die.
Some questions to get the discussion started:
How would you like these to work for each side?
For aliens: should glowies or eggs be destructible? Would aliens know or even choose in which egg they spawn?
For marines: Will marines be able to choose to spawn in squad or in base? Where would the marine spawn in the squad? Would he spawn with just the standard weapons - how could he get a better weapon in squad?
What are the consequences from these changes - good and bad?
For aliens: Will this system effectively discourage spawn camping? How easily will marines be able to take down a hive?
For marines: Marines will have much more staying power on the offensive, but would be more vulnerable in marine base. This system seems to make phasegates less important.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> The aliens now spawn from eggs, that have been first "fertilized" by glowies. The idea is that under each hive there would be more eggs than spawning aliens, forcing the marines to guess where the next alien will spawn.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tsa.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::tsa::" border="0" alt="tsa.gif" /> In podcast 16 the Marine Squad Spawn mechanic was revealed. To encourage team play, marines would be able to spawn with their squad mates when they die.
Some questions to get the discussion started:
How would you like these to work for each side?
For aliens: should glowies or eggs be destructible? Would aliens know or even choose in which egg they spawn?
For marines: Will marines be able to choose to spawn in squad or in base? Where would the marine spawn in the squad? Would he spawn with just the standard weapons - how could he get a better weapon in squad?
What are the consequences from these changes - good and bad?
For aliens: Will this system effectively discourage spawn camping? How easily will marines be able to take down a hive?
For marines: Marines will have much more staying power on the offensive, but would be more vulnerable in marine base. This system seems to make phasegates less important.
Comments
Just an idea. Thought it might be cool.
When a <b>single</b> alien's about to spawn: a <b>number</b> of glowies float and attach to the ground/ceiling/walls/infestation, and A) only one forms an egg that immediately spawns an alien or B) they all form eggs, but only one actually spawns an alien; afterward, with A) the rest detach and float back up and around, and B) the rest transform back into glowies and detach then float back up and around.
edit: my thought is that glowies are indestructible.
Great now I'll have this image stuck in my head whenever I think of skulking in NS2.
THANKS A LOT.
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I thought that the glowies <b>turned into</b> eggs.
Could someone clarify?
Radix: dude what the hell does that have to do with anything?
I thought that the glowies <b>turned into</b> eggs.
Could someone clarify?
Radix: dude what the hell does that have to do with anything?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The podcast implied they turned into eggs, but it doesn't really matter. It's not set in stone.
I think radix was referring to the fairy that follows link around. A picture or <a href="http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=206" target="_blank">vgcats comic</a> would have probably been better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cory: Being visualized, what those look like. Kind of a cross between insect-jellyfish type of look. But those will be sort of floating around the hive. They would randomly flow down and create the eggs. So basically these are sort of the caterpillars that become the butterfly, essentially. They would randomly land… so each hive room would have a bunch of eggs. We’re going back to the egg idea again.
Charlie: Yep, we think so [inaudible]
Cory: So there would be say 10-15 eggs in a room. Not all of them actually with an alien that’s spawning from them, so it leaves the marines uncertain where the next alien will spawn from. And when the amount of eggs drops below a certain amount, these floaties would randomly find a surface to land on and morph into an egg, which would then turn into an alien<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way i understood it is that there would always be some eggs in the room - no matter if someone is spawning or not. Only after eggs die new glowies would start flying to the ground and make new eggs. I think the eggs would be killable but the glowies would not. To clarify: the hive creates glowies, which then turn into eggs, which in turn become aliens. The eggs don't turn back into glowies.
I agree with Canadian Wolverine, that aliens should be able to see where they spawn and even direct themselves. Should aliens be able to choose in which egg they spawn or even control the glowies? - i'm not sure either way. On the one hand, it would give aliens something to do while they're dead, but it might give a too great of an advantage defending the hive.
BTW, do you think there should be some use in killing alien eggs? It seems like it would be a waste of ammo and time, since new eggs would be created.
With aliens
You only ever spawn in one at a time. So as a result you get owned. Now if you get to pick your egg and then hatch once a few of you are fertilised, and ready, then you could rush the marines together. If marines are in the Hive and they know that all (or most) of the alive aliens are eggs then it would be worthfireing into them depending on how fast they are replaced. I like the new Idea alot.
Glowies, small and ship loads of them. GL resistant (shrapnell is unlikly to hit them, maybe if fire nades are introduced they could be a glowy counter) but small arms fire should kill them. As soon as one dies it respawns from the hive.
With marines
I don't like it that aliens know exactly where you will spawn. I would like to see the IP's change to spawning you at several random (legal) locations around the IP. These could be set by the COM on placement of the IP. Obs could work the same way, with two options MS beacon and local beacon. The local beacon would cost more.
Squad spawning. Will not decrease the use of Phases. They will still be very important in beaming other squads in or team members that did not get to spawn next to their squad for what ever reason.
There is another thread on this somewhere with some good ideas. Can't find it though.
I still think glowies should be indestructible.
It should be unprofitable to destroy an egg - ie. timewise or ammo-wise, you should be spending those bullets on the hive. I think that's already there though.
It'd be nice if you spawned inside the egg, the egg would provide a modicum of protection, and only in the moment you moved (with the directional keys, not just by looking around), would the 'membrane' break, revealing your true form. So you could have a bunch of aliens all watching the marines, waiting, then bursting out of their eggs and surprising the marines.
I dunno <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> it's an idea.
I like this idea. Aliens would somehow need to know where their friends have spawned.
Also, the skulks might get a small boost to speed (a weak version of leap) so they have and advantage in closing the distance. They don't just walk out of eggs - they jump out of them.
Another idea is to allow aliens to morph into higher lifeforms more quickly while in the egg.
You're attaching 'dynamic' to something that is hardly that; I don't even know what the hell 'dynamic' has to do with it, actually. In fact contrary to that; if you're keeping aliens pinned at base, by killing them the moment they spawn, that makes the game <b>static</b>.
You're attaching 'dynamic' to something that is hardly that; I don't even know what the hell 'dynamic' has to do with it, actually. In fact contrary to that; if you're keeping aliens pinned at base, by killing them the moment they spawn, that makes the game <b>static</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's completely fair. You leave your base defended and you have problems. Dynamic is a loaded word so I'll try another, I meant variable. When I say dynamic I'm not saying your player experience of dying is dynamic, I'm say the fact that Kharaa behind on res can still attack the base if marines are careless and over expend themselves. The kharaa and marines have more avenues for attack if bases/spawns are vulnerable. It may seem lame or cheap but it's a part of the game. You have to defend against the early rush just like in any RTS.
The thing is, if <b>your team</b> leaves the base undefended, <b>you</b> as an individual shouldn't have to pay a price like that. Don't give me that 'teamwork' bs because you know it has nothing to do with it.
If <b>your team</b> leaves the base undefended, then <b>your team</b> should lose; <b>you</b> shouldn't have to die before you even get <i>a chance to fight back</i>.
You're saying you have to defend against the early rush just like any RTS; well, in NS terms (for marines for example) that means <b>rushing the hive</b>, am I right? How the hell does <b>spawn-camping</b> come into that?
And if you realise your team's mistake and spawn in base hoping to assist in defense, or turn the tables - well, no chance of that, you just got spawnkilled. Though again, spawncamping and rushing aren't the same.
It isn't fun. And it isn't fair.
The thing is, if <b>your team</b> leaves the base undefended, <b>you</b> as an individual shouldn't have to pay a price like that. Don't give me that 'teamwork' bs because you know it has nothing to do with it.
If <b>your team</b> leaves the base undefended, then <b>your team</b> should lose; <b>you</b> shouldn't have to die before you even get <i>a chance to fight back</i>.
You're saying you have to defend against the early rush just like any RTS; well, in NS terms (for marines for example) that means <b>rushing the hive</b>, am I right? How the hell does <b>spawn-camping</b> come into that?
And if you realise your team's mistake and spawn in base hoping to assist in defense, or turn the tables - well, no chance of that, you just got spawnkilled. Though again, spawncamping and rushing aren't the same.
It isn't fun. And it isn't fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're team leaves your spawn undefended then yes, it's fair that you get spawn camped. You are a part of your team. You have to rely on the team and the team on you. NS isn't team deathmatch, there are objectives, if you fail at your objectives you lose the game. One of those objectives is to protect your spawn/base.
Rushing and spawncamping are related because the opponents base is also their spawn point. If you can't see this I can't help you understand.
Rushing and spawncamping are related because the opponents base is also their spawn point. If you can't see this I can't help you understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that an undefended alien hive <u>should </u>be vulnerable, <b>however, spawn camping is not the only solution to achieve it</b>. As Harimau mentioned, being spawn camped is extremely frustrating for aliens, so it should be avoided.
At this point I can't come up with too many alternatives to make an undefended hive vulnerable. But one idea that comes to mind is delaying respawn-rate: when eggs are destroyed, it reduces the chance of a skulk spawning in one of them, thus delaying when alien reinforcements respawn (at that hive only). The problem with this idea is that it wouldn't be fun at all for aliens to sit idly in a respawn queue.
(Instead of getting cheap kills, marines would prevent aliens from spawning in the first place)
Yes, it is. It may seem "cheap" like going after someone's workers in Starcraft, but it's a perfectly viable tactic. And as Afra is starting to see if you take away spawn camping the base is no longer vulnerable. If a spawning marine can take out a significant number of skulks in base then MS isn't vulnerable to attack.
The problem with kharaa spawn camping is that it's too easy to do, even with just one marine. I'm not sure how we could alleviate this except by spawning in waves. That way, if there is a sizable force of marines in the hive, the kharaa still have trouble.
that's a good one
How about making IPs bigger, like a 2x2 in-game meters platform (so 4 guys could stay there next to each other). I know it might be tricky to find space for a larger IP, but marine base (or a reloc place) should be big anyway to have space for structures. And It would allow spawning a guy when somebody is at the IP afk for a minute (talking to walter or sth).