Atmosphere vs Gameplay.
Scythe
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
One of the things that irked me the most about NS as it developed was the gradual dilution of the core atmosphere in favour of making the game more "hardkore", or more suitable for high-level play. The first releases of NS maps oozed atmosphere and suspense, just like a movie. Over time they became less like a movie and more like a CS map. I'm taking the normalisation of light levels, the removal of slow doors and elevators and suchlike.
We need some way of making the maps seem dark and atmospheric, whilst not actually being that dark. Short of making the aliens glow, I'm not sure of a way to do this.
Just something I want to keep in mind.
--Scythe--
We need some way of making the maps seem dark and atmospheric, whilst not actually being that dark. Short of making the aliens glow, I'm not sure of a way to do this.
Just something I want to keep in mind.
--Scythe--
Comments
Of course, atmosphere is what attracts many people to a game, and keeps them there while they learn the gameplay. So it's a delicate balance that I feel many recent games haven't been getting right(too much atmosphere, not even gameplay to keep me playing). NS has existed for so long because it really doesn't get old.
Ideally it should have both.
For example the idea that certain lights are powered down or turned off due to DI taking over the enviroment. Add some foggy sprites like in the old, dark hera tunnel and you have your scary atmosphere.
Thanks to DI these creepy spots in maps will even change and thus add variation to gameplay and visuals.
I can look back on my first experience with NS and say it was incredibly atmospheric, but that goes out the window when I admit that I wouldn't still be playing it if those problems hadn't been fixed. In multiplayer, gameplay>atmosphere. That's not saying atmosphere can't be included, it means if it is included it should never be at the expense of solid gameplay principles.
There are many examples in NS of where atmosphere and gameplay coincide in perfect harmony. The infestation textures both add atmosphere and are a visual indicator for the Hive zones. Emergency lighting is both a visual signpost for a specific location of the map, and atmospheric. The same is true of ambient sound, provided it's not overpoweringly loud. The Alien sound effects when emerging from a gestation egg are both atmospheric, and act as audio cues informing the player that a particular lifeform (most often a higher lifeform) is in the near vicinity. This could be a friendly lifeform if you are an Alien, or it could be something you either want to hunt, or run from/inform the team about if a Marine.
Take the first hera for instance. There are a thousand tremendously creative ways to balance a map. Removing intricate level geometry just because a siege point was too strong or an ambush worked too well is a cheap WoW'esque trick to be used when you're totally fed up with mapping and just want to get it done.
From gravity alterations, to prebuilt obs's, to minor damage effects in ambush points, to The Red Box, it's easy to balance a map. It's not competitive play that causes maps to lose atmosphere, but rather a tired mapper who wants to get the map done, and believe me, I know how grueling mapping can be, and I'm not pointing fingers, it's just that I think this deserves to be said.
And although at times it's true that you must either sacrifice gameplay or atmosphere, such as in the case of lighting in certain places, and while in these situations I favor gameplay virtually every time, I believe these situations are blown drastically out of proportion by people who have never experimented with a trigger_push or tried to think outside Trochus's famous brush entity.
As I read this thread, I was agreeing that the shift from atmosphere to gameplay had caused harm, until I read Radix's post. Now I also think that the atmosphere declined for different reasons.
As far as I am aware, professional game developers don't having single people working on single maps, but rather they assign teams of people to groups of maps. Perhaps it is time for UWE to do the same thing? They could even go whole hog with Valve's methodology of giving maps separate art and design passes, so that artists and designers can each stick to what they do best and so that NS2 mappers wont be required to be as multi-disciplinary like most mod mappers.
No way.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
What are is the objection referring to?
Atmosphere is what draws the players into a game, before they take the effort to learn how to master the game... no atmosphere no players.
However what keeps players going is gameplay, there needs to be enough for the player to learn/do to keep their attention...otherwise it will be nothing but a atmospheric partially interactive movie.
NS 1 had a great mixture of the two, lots of things to learn/do as a player and the general atmosphere in the game was exciting and lead to many a memorable moment.
Summary : If you forgo the atmosphere, you get a highly interactive piece of software no-one wants to play, forgo the gameplay and you get a movie no-one can play.
Because people get bored eventually, no matter how good you make the gameplay.
Secondly we have people going the hacker way, maxing gamma, turning off needed effects and generally just trying to hack the game outright. I never understood why that was ever any fun myself and I always felt cheated when a hacker was discovered because it hurts everyone playing. Ha, I remember when a CS patch would come out and you would see player numbers go up for a good week or two since there was no one hacking at that time. Then after a few weeks it all dropped off as hacks came out and people stopped putting up with it.
I dearly hope I see more maps come out like the original set for NS came out. Somewhat dark, scary places where a new player would be ambushed by skulks coming out of the walls and vents and just decloaking and eating them. Sure it's tough but you don't need to corpse run or anything, just respawn and keep going. Listen to your commander and team and watch your map and learn.
Oh yeah. All those CS players got into the game because of the incredible atmosphere and realism.
Atmosphere is what draws the players into a game, before they take the effort to learn how to master the game... no atmosphere no players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Tetris has, no atmosphere. Streetfighter, Tekken have limited atmosphere. Atmosphere for certain genres is a big draw, but nobody has been saying "gameplay instead of atmosphere". What has been said is that atmosphere should never compromise the gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1667596:date=Jan 16 2008, 05:54 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Jan 16 2008, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1667596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh yeah. All those CS players got into the game because of the incredible atmosphere and realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, wshen CS came out it was the only game where, when you died, you had to sit out the game and watch for up to 5 minutes. It was also one of the few games where most guns, even pistols could take you out in a matter of a couple of hits. This heightens the tension and does make the game incredibly atmospheric (provided you mute all the idiots on the mic).
The initial draw for CS is that it is an incredibly tense game. You are both the hunter and the hunted, you know you could die in an instant, so you are on edge. When people are tense they produce more adrenaline, which is a naturally good sensation. This is why people like CS. In CS there is a balance between atmosphere, which is mostly generated by the 'realistic' weapon accuracy, high weapon damage and the rounds system (and secondarily by the levels, sounds, radio commands, animations, etc.), and the gameplay which is incredibly balanced. In CS it just happened that a lot of the unique gameplay features were also contributing to a unique atmosphere. They were in balance. Most of the atmospheric stuff that was dropped from NS was dropped because it was detrimental to the gameplay.
Secondly we have people going the hacker way, maxing gamma, turning off needed effects and generally just trying to hack the game outright. I never understood why that was ever any fun myself and I always felt cheated when a hacker was discovered because it hurts everyone playing. Ha, I remember when a CS patch would come out and you would see player numbers go up for a good week or two since there was no one hacking at that time. Then after a few weeks it all dropped off as hacks came out and people stopped putting up with it.
I dearly hope I see more maps come out like the original set for NS came out. Somewhat dark, scary places where a new player would be ambushed by skulks coming out of the walls and vents and just decloaking and eating them. Sure it's tough but you don't need to corpse run or anything, just respawn and keep going. Listen to your commander and team and watch your map and learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ThisonetimeIgotkilledbecausethemapwastoodarkandIcouldn'tseeanythingclearlyoutskilledandIuninstalledthegame.
I thought you went to watch a movie ?
I think NS2 will have plenty atmosphere, hl2 has barely any dark areas, yet it is insanely creepy, and you get an unsettling uneasy feeling <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
so long as they limit the areas to very few areas, i don't see a problem
I'm not sure how much of the atmosphere originated from discovering the new game though. It's a bit like the movie Alien first came out. People didn't have a clue what the creature was, making the movie a lot more scary and tense. Now its more like 'oh, here comes the chestburster'.
True but lets not forget first impressions either, atmosphere IMHO sucks in new player, the depth of game play will keep them on. Full servers are very important to multiplayer games but you only get there by somehow seeding them in the first place <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although atmosphere is very important, Unfortunately gameplay has to come first when it comes to Multilayer. ... Seems like everything you guys mentions in here are visual effects which might have a tremendous impact on the gameplay, yet you guys failed to realize that there is another category of atmosphere that can maintain the gameplay: AUDIO?? Have water dripping from leaking pipes, air compressing in airlocks, sparks along the electrical wiring, or hive's slimness expanding (DI). All these are atmosphere too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good call. I always wanted to direct a bit of that atmosphere as a spectator, sort of like how Zombie Master is, but without actually damaging anyone, rather just trying to make them jump and shoot at shadows <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
We need some way of making the maps seem dark and atmospheric, whilst not actually being that dark. Short of making the aliens glow, I'm not sure of a way to do this.
Just something I want to keep in mind.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all due respect,
Atmosphere with regards to a multiplayer game enviornment is secondary at best. The logic being that very few people are going to want to experience atmosphere over game play, and atomsphere is contingent on everybody playing with similar settings (i.e. brightness, shadows, sound etc....) which will not happen.
Atmosphere is best suited for a single player experience, or Co-Op gameplay, not a game where there are two opposing forces trying to destroy each other, not bound by any rules of atmosphere whatsoever. Attempting to gain atmosphere from this game where players attempt to beat each other will just develop frustration.
Atmosphere with regards to a multiplayer game enviornment is secondary at best. The logic being that very few people are going to want to experience atmosphere over game play, and atomsphere is contingent on everybody playing with similar settings (i.e. brightness, shadows, sound etc....) which will not happen.
Atmosphere is best suited for a single player experience, or Co-Op gameplay, not a game where there are two opposing forces trying to destroy each other, not bound by any rules of atmosphere whatsoever. Attempting to gain atmosphere from this game where players attempt to beat each other will just develop frustration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i disagree otherwise people would just play with white walls and ceilings - atmosphere is present even in NS1, its just dated so it appears to have none compared to new games.
I think you have neglected to see that the gameplay can be made around the atmosphere. This darkness you call of is what mappers call shadowing, in which it is not simply a lack of light but specifically positioned lighting in order to change the environment to create a certain type of gameplay.
As far as audio goes, stopsound works pretty well for most people and audio placed by mappers is generally wasted.